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Thursday, May 29, 2014

Dear Jennifer Weiner;

When Shailene Woodley told Time last week that she's not a feminist because she likes men, you tweeted: "Dear Young Actresses: [Hope you don't mind my stealing the epistolary idea, btw]: Before you sound off on feminists and how you're not one, please figure out what feminism is." So true! We should all know our isms: feminism, absolutism, skepticism for instance.

Thing is, what happens if Shailene does her due diligence and she‘s still confused about what feminism is. I know I am, and I was hoping you, with your nine bestselling novels on women, "families and feelings" and this smart take on the gender politics of the literary scene, could help me out.

I know feminism is supposed to be about equal rights for women.

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JeffJ

 

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I'm pretty sure that would mean that men have no right to rape their wives or threaten female bloggers, and that women who want to should have the opportunity to become astronauts or the CEO of General Motors. If that's what it is, then I say "Yay feminism!" In fact, with that definition you could probably enlist Shailene, Pope Francis and Pinch Sulzberger to boot.

But I get the sense – and please correct me if I'm wrong – that feminists mean something more than that. Like maybe not just equality but precise, numerical equivalence: the same number of men and women CEO's, fork operators, nannies, and systems analysts, the same number of diapers changed and dishes washed, the same pay for professional basketball players, the same number of bylines in the New York Times whether in the style section or the financial pages, the same price charged for a hair cut or a dry-cleaned shirt.

So, I'm wondering, Jen (is it ok if I call you Jen?): Can someone be a feminist and believe there are reasons other than patriarchal social conditioning for some of these gender gaps? Like, to take one example, maybe women aren't as interested in following pro basketball as men are? .....

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I always enjoy it when people who espouse ridiculous viewpoints are called out in a very caustic manner.

#1 | Posted by JeffJ at 2014-05-29 10:57 PM | Reply | Flag:

"Or I read that we live in a "rape culture" which I take to mean most people – men mostly – think rape is hunky dory"

That is not what rape culture means, you dumb c---. en.wikipedia.org

#2 | Posted by snoofy at 2014-05-29 11:27 PM | Reply | Flag:

From the supplied link in #2

In feminism, rape culture is a concept that links rape and sexual violence to the culture of a society,[1] and in which prevalent attitudes and practices normalize, excuse, tolerate, and even condone rape

I don't think she was too far off the mark, Snoof-dog.

#3 | Posted by JeffJ at 2014-05-29 11:34 PM | Reply | Flag:

It's true that our culture does all of that.

But do you think rape is hunky-dory?

#4 | Posted by snoofy at 2014-05-29 11:59 PM | Reply | Flag:

But do you think rape is hunky-dory?

No.

#5 | Posted by JeffJ at 2014-05-30 12:04 AM | Reply | Flag:

And you still think she was on target?

#6 | Posted by snoofy at 2014-05-30 12:07 AM | Reply | Flag:

Yes.

Because she wasn't saying that SHE believes that people, mostly men, think rape is ----- dory. What she is saying is that when feminists speak of rape culture that is how THEY are characterizing it.

That's how I read it.

#7 | Posted by JeffJ at 2014-05-30 12:10 AM | Reply | Flag:

What she is saying is that when feminists speak of rape culture that is how THEY are characterizing it.
That's how I read it.
#7 | Posted by JeffJ

I read it that way too.

Did you notice that for someone who purports to be "confused" about feminism, she sure seems to have it all figured out?

This is just a hatchet job, and a fairly trashy one at that.

#8 | Posted by snoofy at 2014-05-30 12:17 AM | Reply | Flag:

Did you notice that for someone who purports to be "confused" about feminism, she sure seems to have it all figured out?

Here's how I construed the overall thrust of her article:

Feminists proclaim to be about the promotion of equality for women.
She then goes on to, in a passive-aggressive way, point out that 'modern feminism' has moved way beyond that and has taken some fairly repugnant views, such as 'rape culture', and are attempting to normalize them. It's to a point where a young actress views feminism as man-hating. During my wife's senior year in college (1993) she took a women's studies class. There were 6 other young women in this class, 5 of whom absolutely despised men. I was also a senior at the time and remember some of her descriptions of the class discussions that they would have in that class. All of the women in that class considered themselves to be feminists.

She was saying that feminists have mostly themselves to blame for the fact that a young woman would characterize them in the manner that this actress characterized them.

#9 | Posted by JeffJ at 2014-05-30 12:29 AM | Reply | Flag:

In a nutshell, feminists have perverted their worthwhile cause.

#10 | Posted by JeffJ at 2014-05-30 12:31 AM | Reply | Flag:

In feminism, rape culture is a concept that links rape and sexual violence to the culture of a society,[1] and in which prevalent attitudes and practices normalize, excuse, tolerate, and even condone rape - JeffJ

It's true that our culture does all of that. - Snoofy

Because she wasn't saying that SHE believes that people, mostly men, think rape is ----- dory. What she is saying is that when feminists speak of rape culture that is how THEY are characterizing it. - JeffJ

I read it that way too.- Snoofy

So which is it snoofy? You seem to be all over the map. Either the culture is a "rape" culture or it isn't....

#11 | Posted by AndreaMackris at 2014-05-30 01:17 AM | Reply | Flag:

So which is it snoofy? You seem to be all over the map. Either the culture is a "rape" culture or it isn't....
#11 | Posted by AndreaMackris

Do you think rape is hunky dory?

#12 | Posted by snoofy at 2014-05-30 05:17 AM | Reply | Flag:

#12 You genuinely need to work on reading comprehension. Jeff linked to the definition that described a rape culture as one in which rape is, in part, condoned. Condoning is approval, and "thinking something is hunky-dory" is a way to say you approve of it. Thus, by extension, a rape culture is one that believes rape is hunky-dory. The very fact that you haven't found a single man who believes it IS hunky-dory would imply that the femi-nazis who use that term are wrong. That's the point of the article.

#13 | Posted by MUSTANG at 2014-05-30 06:46 AM | Reply | Flag:

"The very fact that you haven't found a single man who believes it IS hunky-dory would imply that the femi-nazis who use that term are wrong. That's the point of the article."

The fact that you even use the term "femi-nazis" makes you obviously incapable of understanding what feminists actually believe. It makes you basically...a jerk.

#14 | Posted by danni at 2014-05-30 07:45 AM | Reply | Flag: | Newsworthy 2

I think there is a distinct difference between someone who believes in equal rights for women, which I wholeheartedly support, and someone who believes in some of the crap that this article's author points out. Those man-haters who spew their crap under the guise of feminism are not feminists, and I think the term femi-nazi is an accurate and concise way to describe them.

This video made the rounds yesterday. A brief glimpse into the nuttery of the radical femi-nazi.

www.youtube.com

#15 | Posted by MUSTANG at 2014-05-30 08:02 AM | Reply | Flag:

Danni,

I think the point that Mustang was making is that "Femi-Nazis" are dragging down "feminists" and "feminism" with their --------. Quite frankly, that is the point the author of the linked article was making as well.

#16 | Posted by JeffJ at 2014-05-30 08:07 AM | Reply | Flag:

Use of the term "feminazi" says more about the person chortling it than those they actively seek to disparage.

In fact, right now those celebrating Elliot Rodgers actions are using the term freely. You all are apparently in familiar company

#17 | Posted by ChiefTutMoses at 2014-05-30 09:17 AM | Reply | Flag:

"I think the term femi-nazi is an accurate and concise way to describe them."

Really?
You think its a "concise way to describe" and equate these "man haters" who do little more than talk to an ideology of slave/extermination camps and the mass murder of 2 out of every three European Jews, 1.5 million children, tens of thousands of gypsy's, and thousands of handicapped people?
Not only do you cheapen the horror perpetrated on thousands of Jews still alive today, you flippantly make a caricature of one of the most heinous acts of the 20th century just for giggles.

You are a disgusting person

#18 | Posted by ChiefTutMoses at 2014-05-30 09:33 AM | Reply | Flag: | Newsworthy 3

#18 | Posted by ChiefTutMoses at 2014-05-30 09:33 AM | Reply | Flag:

Did you write an angry letter to Seinfeld after the "soup nazi" episode?

"Nazi" as an adjective has been used for decades.

2/10 on the fauxrage.

#19 | Posted by Sully at 2014-05-30 10:00 AM | Reply | Flag:

"Nazi" as an adjective has been used for decades."

Not by me, and certainly not by those who suffered the atrocity.

I guess this is what passes as "principle" now a days. Someone else does it, therefore it's OK for you to do it. Are all your actions driven by what others do?

Disgraceful and repugnant!

#20 | Posted by ChiefTutMoses at 2014-05-30 10:20 AM | Reply | Flag:

#20 Get back to us when you ferret out the DR liberals that throw around terms like TeaNazi, ReichWinger and RepubliKKKan. Sully was generous when he gave you a 2 out of 10.

#21 | Posted by MUSTANG at 2014-05-30 02:13 PM | Reply | Flag:

There are zealots in every crowd.
The author of the Letter From A Confused Feminist pretends not to understand this, and instead uses it as her literary device.
The whole thing, from the title to the exes and os at the end, is as disingenuous as can be.

#22 | Posted by snoofy at 2014-05-30 04:10 PM | Reply | Flag:

The very fact that you haven't found a single man who believes it IS hunky-dory would imply that the femi-nazis who use that term are wrong. That's the point of the article.
#13 | Posted by MUSTANG

So let's ask police if they think police brutality is okay.
Think we'll find any who publicly and openly answer yes?
By your logic, there must not be a culture of police brutality.
I hope this helps you understand why your point, and the point of the article, are very weak indeed.

#23 | Posted by snoofy at 2014-05-30 04:13 PM | Reply | Flag: | Newsworthy 1

The fact is, only 1.5% of men commit rape, and they are almost all serial offenders.

I have a theory that this is a genetic leftover of caveman days, when rape and kidnapping was part of how we reproduced. They teach you that in college anthropology.

Despite genetic selection, there are still serial rapists.

But 1.5% does not make a "rape culture".

I would argue, however, that at least the girlstapo of the Femireich is a cultural movement. So calling them Feminazis is OK.

And probably prudent.

Last time, we didn't listen until it was too late.

#24 | Posted by HeliumRat at 2014-05-30 10:43 PM | Reply | Flag:

But 1.5% does not make a "rape culture".

It's the 98.5% who can't seem to stop the 1.5% that make a rape culture.

Along with things like Rush calling that woman who wants birth control a ----.

#25 | Posted by snoofy at 2014-05-31 01:18 AM | Reply | Flag:

You started drinking early today, didn't you Snoof.

To say that the actions of 1.5% of the population characterize the entire population is just retarded. In fact, you could say that we are feminist culture, given that the number of Americans who identify themselves as being feminist far exceeds the number who commit rape.

#26 | Posted by madbomber at 2014-05-31 11:54 AM | Reply | Flag:

I'm not knocking you're drinking early, I admire that. I personally am going to wait until after I take the kids to see Maleficent to start knocking them back.

#27 | Posted by madbomber at 2014-05-31 11:55 AM | Reply | Flag:

As far as the rape culture thing goes BS.

My father taught me and I have taught my son that women are to be protected. If god forbid either me or my son were to find/hear/see a woman in danger of rape or any violence we would go to her aid. Admittedly our aid would probably consist of getting beaten/shot/stabbed while she ran away but we would both do it. I was raised and have raised my son that "women and children first" is not just a saying but the essential basis of a successful society.

Ironically enough I am frequently accused of chauvinism because of this belief and I am sure my son will face the same or worse by the time he is an adult. For me I don't care you can call me a chauvinist jerk all you want and I will still defend a woman every time, heck if you are a woman and call me a chauvinist I will even defend you should it be necessary. However I worry that my son brought up in this culture may lose the belief as outdated, I have tried to raise him right but what is one man's teachings against a society?

You want to claim there is a rape culture while looking down at those that would defend you from the rape culture. You want to be proud empowered women who don't need men to defend you but if we don't you will accuse us of perpetuating a rape culture?

Is there any wonder some people find feminism baffling?

#28 | Posted by TaoWarrior at 2014-05-31 12:27 PM | Reply | Flag:

My father taught me and I have taught my son that women are to be protected

Same here. Not only protected, but respected. I can remember getting thunked a time or two on the noggin by my dad for not opening the door for a woman or darting in front of one to get inside. To this day, I still open the car door for my female passengers as I always have. I see this is mostly a lost custom, though. Once in a rare while I'll see someone younger than me opening the car door for their female passenger, though, and it warms my heart to see this.

#29 | Posted by goatman at 2014-05-31 12:34 PM | Reply | Flag:

Because of my MS I have a hard time opening car doors for women it takes me too long to hobble around to their side of the car, but doors to buildings are always held for a woman. The other day I was using my cane and still stopped to hold the door for a woman and for the first time in memory she stopped and thanked me for it.

The door thing is lost partly because of bad fathers but partly because women do not value it.

Oh as far as thunking my son I remember a couple years ago his older sister was tormenting him and he swung at her. She got sent to her room but he was forced to listen to dad's boring speech on protecting women for an hour and was grounded for a week. The lesson being NEVER EVER hurt a woman no matter what your reason. Leave the situation get an authority figure but do not even threaten to hurt a woman.

Funny thing is my oldest daughter is one of the ones who calls me a chauvinist for things like that. One day I got fed up with her on it and asked her if she would prefer me being a chauvinist or letting her brother beat her up? She laid off after that.

Granted she is not wrong and I reinforce it with my twisted sense of humor. Yesterday one daughter was doing math and asked what an irrational number was and without blinking I responded a "female one" but it is rare and my family knows that I am not serious with stuff like that. Heck I was the one who raised a stink when my daughter wanted to play football and the local park league didn't have a girls league or any rule banning girls. We went to sign up and the guy in charge was like you don't want to play football you want cheerleading at that table over there. He got an ear full and she played football.

#30 | Posted by TaoWarrior at 2014-05-31 12:54 PM | Reply | Flag:

Because of my MS I have a hard time opening car doors for women

I've read your posts long enough that I've no doubt you would do it if possible, Tao.

The door thing is lost partly because of bad fathers but partly because women do not value it.

True about some women not valuing it. I remember once about 30 years ago I opened the door for a woman and she said, "I can get it myself". I was surprised and said, without even thinking, "Sorry. I thought you were a lady".

I shocked myself having said that because that was long before I so glibly utilized my well honed sense of sarcasm. LOL

#31 | Posted by goatman at 2014-05-31 01:00 PM | Reply | Flag:

I've read your posts long enough that I've no doubt you would do it if possible, Tao.

I used to. In fact part of what got me a wife was her being blown away that I opened her door for her on our first date. She recalls that she was surprised and delighted to be on a date with a gentleman and she later told me it was part of the reason there was a second date.

#32 | Posted by TaoWarrior at 2014-05-31 01:04 PM | Reply | Flag:

Feminism definition: the art of heterosexual congress is by default rape of the female by the male(until proven otherwise).

A view directly inherited from the Catholic church of Roman anhedonia. see also Ayatollah Khomeini.

#33 | Posted by Shawn at 2014-05-31 02:18 PM | Reply | Flag:

act. pardon.

#34 | Posted by Shawn at 2014-05-31 02:18 PM | Reply | Flag:

What I've always wanted to know is why, behind closed doors, during sex, do women scream insanely when they climax and men only slightly grunt during climax.

Feminism needs to address this and somehow push to make these so called "natural reactions" interchangeable between the sexes.

#35 | Posted by shane at 2014-05-31 02:22 PM | Reply | Flag: | Funny: 1

What I've always wanted to know is why, behind closed doors, during sex, do women scream insanely when they climax and men only slightly grunt during climax.

I drool. That's why my sex partners won't do it missionary with me. Or was it because of the halitosis? I can't remember. It sucks getting old.

#36 | Posted by goatman at 2014-05-31 02:24 PM | Reply | Flag: | Funny: 1

To say that the actions of 1.5% of the population characterize the entire population is just retarded.

I didn't say that.

I said the 98.5% of the male population (plus, presumably 100% of women) who can't seem to keep the 1.5% of the male population of rapists in check characterizes the population.

Here's another example: Most gun owners, probably more than 98.5%, don't go kill people with their guns. Yet, gun violence is a characteristic of our society. We are the only nation in the modern world that routinely endures shooting sprees.

Hope this helps.

#37 | Posted by snoofy at 2014-05-31 02:45 PM | Reply | Flag: | Newsworthy 1

Is there any wonder some people find feminism baffling?
#28 | Posted by TaoWarrior

Judging by the comments from the men in this thread, it's no wonder whatsoever.

#38 | Posted by snoofy at 2014-05-31 02:46 PM | Reply | Flag:

There is nothing baffling about feminism. see above definition.

#39 | Posted by Shawn at 2014-05-31 04:07 PM | Reply | Flag:

Along with things like Rush calling that woman who wants birth control a ----.

#25 | POSTED BY SNOOFY

Rush is a buffoon, but that is NOT what he said. You are being disingenuous.

Here's the transcript of what he said (emphasis added is mine):

RUSH: Oh, yeah, I'm gonna deal with this. I'm gonna deal with it. I think this is hilarious. Absolutely hilarious. The left has been thrown into an outright conniption fit! This is "phony soldiers" times ten. Oh, ten times worse than phony soldiers. The reaction that they are having to what I said yesterday about Susan Fluke -- or Sandra Fluke, whatever her name is -- the Georgetown student who went before a congressional committee and said she's having so much sex, she's going broke buying contraceptives and wants us to buy them. I said, "Well, what would you call someone who wants us to pay for her to have sex? What would you call that woman? You'd call 'em a ----, a prostitute or whatever."

#40 | Posted by JeffJ at 2014-06-01 01:52 PM | Reply | Flag:

Snoofy, your "gun culture" vs "rape culture" argument has a serious flaw in it you could drive a truck through.

37% of households own guns. More than half of American's support the right to own a gun. That is "gun culture".

www.gallup.com

Whereas 1.5% of men commit rape. And 0% of men support rape.

So you see, we do not have a "rape culture" like we have a "gun culture".

#41 | Posted by HeliumRat at 2014-06-01 08:36 PM | Reply | Flag: | Newsworthy 1

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