Drudge Retort: The Other Side of the News
Wednesday, March 20, 2013

Tomas Young: I write this letter on the 10th anniversary of the Iraq War on behalf of my fellow Iraq War veterans. ... I write this letter, my last letter, to you, Mr. Bush and Mr. Cheney. I write not because I think you grasp the terrible human and moral consequences of your lies, manipulation and thirst for wealth and power. I write this letter because, before my own death, I want to make it clear that I, and hundreds of thousands of my fellow veterans, along with millions of my fellow citizens, along with hundreds of millions more in Iraq and the Middle East, know fully who you are and what you have done. You may evade justice but in our eyes you are each guilty of egregious war crimes, of plunder and, finally, of murder, including the murder of thousands of young Americans -- my fellow veterans -- whose future you stole.

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I joined the Army two days after the 9/11 attacks. I joined the Army because our country had been attacked. I wanted to strike back at those who had killed some 3,000 of my fellow citizens. I did not join the Army to go to Iraq, a country that had no part in the September 2001 attacks and did not pose a threat to its neighbors, much less to the United States. I did not join the Army to "liberate" Iraqis or to shut down mythical weapons-of-mass-destruction facilities or to implant what you cynically called "democracy" in Baghdad and the Middle East.

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George W. Bush makes one-million dollars per speech.

#1 | Posted by Zed at 2013-03-20 09:12 AM | Reply | Flag:

Given that George makes one-million per speech, he has officially passed that "laughing all the way to the bank" criterion that is often advanced by the Right as a sign that people like Rush Limbaugh are successful.

#2 | Posted by Zed at 2013-03-20 09:32 AM | Reply | Flag:

I hope that before your time on earth ends, as mine is now ending, you will find the strength of character to stand before the American public and the world, and in particular the Iraqi people, and beg for forgiveness.

Doubtful. The hubris of the W and Shooter is well documented. They will never feel remorse for their actions let alone show it in public.

God bless Tomas that he may find peace and love in his final days.

#3 | Posted by 726 at 2013-03-20 09:42 AM | Reply | Flag:

Bill Clinton's $80 Million Payday, or Why Politicians Don't Care That Much About Reelection

"I never had any money until I got out of the White House, you know, but I've done reasonably well since then." Bill Clinton

On December 21, 2000, President Bill Clinton signed a bill called the Commodities Futures Modernization Act. This law ensured that derivatives could not be regulated, setting the stage for the financial crisis. Just two months later, on February 5, 2001, Clinton received $125,000 from Morgan Stanley, in the form of a payment for a speech Clinton gave for the company in New York City. A few weeks later, Credit Suisse also hired Clinton for a speech, at a $125,000 speaking fee, also in New York. It turns out, Bill Clinton could make a lot of money, for not very much work.

Today, Clinton is worth something on the order of $80 million (probably much more, but we don't really know), and these speeches have become a lucrative and consistent revenue stream for his family.

Read more at www.nakedcapitalism.com

#4 | Posted by paneocon at 2013-03-20 09:43 AM | Reply | Flag:

If this country were still great and common decency were still the norm, the sentiments expressed in this letter would sum up how the overwhelming majority of Americans would feel about Bush, Cheney, Rummy, et al. In such an envrironment, they'd probably have to face their treason at trial. But even if they could weasel past that, they'd be pariahs who wouldn't be be able to show their faces in public.

But we're not great anymore, we have no standards and unwavering partisanship and shortsighted greed have replaced common decency. There is no line that can't be crossed anymore. That these lowlives are still able to parade around as great men illustrates this better than anything else ever could.

#5 | Posted by Sully at 2013-03-20 09:50 AM | Reply | Flag:

NW for Sully. Well said.

#6 | Posted by kanrei at 2013-03-20 09:51 AM | Reply | Flag:

NW for Sully.

Pathetic for Panny.

#7 | Posted by 726 at 2013-03-20 09:55 AM | Reply | Flag:

#4 | Posted by paneocon at 2013-03-20 09:43 AM | Reply | Flag

I'm trying to get my mind around how George and Dick would answer this vet. I'm thinking Cheney would tell him he was a stupid sh-- for volunteering for military service. I'm thinking that Bush would lament the fact he had no strings to pull in order to evade actual combat, and wonder why he didn't plan his life better.

Would Mitt say he was irresponsible and got himself wounded because he wanted free things?

I'm not sure it matters what any of these personages might say. What's clear is that between Mitt, Dick, George, and this vet----Only one of them grew up to be a hero.

#8 | Posted by Zed at 2013-03-20 09:58 AM | Reply | Flag:

I'm trying to get my mind around how George and Dick would answer this vet.

Dick would invite him hunting. Nuff said.

#9 | Posted by 726 at 2013-03-20 10:01 AM | Reply | Flag:

I'm trying to get my mind around how George and Dick would answer this vet.


You misunderestimate the quality and ability of their speech writers.

#10 | Posted by kanrei at 2013-03-20 10:02 AM | Reply | Flag:

#8 | POSTED BY ZED

Like any president they would honor his service and do what ever was possible to help him have what ever quality of life is available to him.
Tomas Young situation is unfortunate but he made a lot of personal decisions on his way to where he is at. Does the child who is paralyzed by a bullet in a drive by shooting have the right to be angry at the politicians in charge of the city they live in?

#11 | Posted by paneocon at 2013-03-20 10:05 AM | Reply | Flag:

as we get further away from Iraq and public opinion continues to move in the direction of accepting Iraq to be a mistake, we might see one those guys (W, Rove, Cheney, Rummy, etc) make a deathbed declaration of admitting it was a mistake.

But admit to any lies? not going to hold my breath on that.....certainly on the suggestion that they deliberately lied about WMDs in Iraq.

#12 | Posted by eberly at 2013-03-20 10:06 AM | Reply | Flag:

I think history will show Dubya was duped too. I think the PNAC document tells us exactly who is to blame and Dubya's name is missing from it. However, JEB's name is on it and it was JEB who made Dubya terms possible. Hmmmmm....

#13 | Posted by kanrei at 2013-03-20 10:09 AM | Reply | Flag:

Tomas Young situation is unfortunate but he made a lot of personal decisions on his way to where he is at.

#11 | Posted by paneocon at

Well, sure. Starting with the primary one: he volunteered for service.

#14 | Posted by Zed at 2013-03-20 10:28 AM | Reply | Flag:

Does the child who is paralyzed by a bullet in a drive by shooting have the right to be angry at the politicians in charge of the city they live in?

#11 | Posted by paneocon at 2013-03-20 10:05 AMFlag: (Choose)
FunnyNewsworthyOffensiveAbusiv
e

This veteran is not a child. Had he not written this article his death would have been virtually anonymous.

Maybe Heinlein was right. Perhaps some form of Federal service should be required prior to a grant of citizenship. The veteran would therefore easily qualify. Cheney, not so much. I think it possible Bush would have been hung as a deserter.

#15 | Posted by Zed at 2013-03-20 10:33 AM | Reply | Flag:

By the way ZEB don't all you libs tell us ad infinitum that Veterans Administration is a shining example of single payer health care and the only way to go in America?

I have, like many other disabled veterans, suffered from the inadequate and often inept care provided by the Veterans Administration
Tomas Young

#16 | Posted by paneocon at 2013-03-20 10:35 AM | Reply | Flag:

"I think it possible Bush would have been hung as a deserter."

easy now...let's not go down the road of pretending Americans really give a [...] about military service.....just because a republican is guilty of avoiding military service.

#17 | Posted by eberly at 2013-03-20 10:59 AM | Reply | Flag:

Vietnam was a clusterfuc....um, fornication and I don't hold it against anyone who avoided it. I would have.

#18 | Posted by kanrei at 2013-03-20 11:01 AM | Reply | Flag:

easy now...let's not go down the road of pretending Americans really give a [...] about military service.....just because a republican is guilty of avoiding military service.

#17 | POSTED BY EBERLY

President Bush served in the Air Force Reserve. Are you suggesting that Reserve duty is not military service?

#19 | Posted by justanoversight at 2013-03-20 11:07 AM | Reply | Flag:

Of course the Air Force Reserve counts, that is why he is accused of going AWOL, not being a Draft Dogger. You can't go AWOL unless you are enlisted in something to go AWOL from.

#20 | Posted by kanrei at 2013-03-20 11:08 AM | Reply | Flag:

#19

no, but others here are.

my only point is that it doesn't matter if GWB came back from Vietnam with 40 medals. the left wouldn't give a crap. it's just an excuse to hide behind for partisan's sake.

same hypocrisy with the attacks on Kerry over his service.

#21 | Posted by eberly at 2013-03-20 11:10 AM | Reply | Flag:

I'm trying to get my mind around how George and Dick would answer this vet.
Posted by Zed

I'll check back in 15 years.

#22 | Posted by wisgod at 2013-03-20 11:12 AM | Reply | Flag:

Give the Devil his due, Dubya's people were experts on turning a military career during war into a liability. Look at what they did to McCain before Kerry. Pretty clear someone in Dubya's campaign hated military people.

#23 | Posted by kanrei at 2013-03-20 11:13 AM | Reply | Flag:

I think the 4F NEOCON crowd viewed it like this:

In Vietnam, people were drafted. They had no choice but to go to war.

With the PNAC Party in the Middle East, they volunteered. They asked for it.

Pretty sick strawman I created, huh?

#24 | Posted by kanrei at 2013-03-20 11:15 AM | Reply | Flag:

"Does the child who is paralyzed by a bullet in a drive by shooting have the right to be angry at the politicians in charge of the city they live in?

#11 | Posted by paneocon at 2013-03-20 10:05 AM | Reply | Flag:"

This horrendous comparison is illustrative of the no-account attitude this country has these days.

The city politician did not order the kid to go out and play on the street at the exact time he knew there would be a drive by, did he? He's got no direct responsiblity for the situation.

I know you don't want to admit this, being a partisan sell out and all but.... George W Bush had direct repsonsbility for order this man to go to war. He chose to put this man and thousands of others into a deadly situation. And he sold this decision based on total lies.

This is what I'm talking about with our total lack of standards and decenecy these days. You actually think that a war is as random as a gang drive by? You can't acknowledge who started the war and that he knew that Americans would die as a result? And you don't find it disgusting that the people who made a decision, knowing it would result in Americans like this guy dying, couldn't even be honest about why they were making the decision? It is OK with you that they lied instead?

There is something wrong with people these days. This wouldn't have been acceptable with thiis country was at its high point. And that this kind of crap is acceptable now is why we are declining.

#25 | Posted by Sully at 2013-03-20 11:16 AM | Reply | Flag:

Does the child who is paralyzed by a bullet in a drive by shooting have the right to be angry at the politicians in charge of the city they live in?

#11 | Posted by paneocon

If those politicians STARTED the gang war for profit and pride like Bush and Cheney did then YES the child should be mad at the politicians.

#26 | Posted by SpeakSoftly at 2013-03-20 11:18 AM | Reply | Flag:

Just after the 2000 election, Saturday Night Live did a skit of Gore and Bush having lunch. Gore asks Bush what he plans to do now that he won. Will Farrell said "I'm gonna start a war. It is like an execution...super-sized."

This was before Dubya was even sworn in. Boy did they call it.

#27 | Posted by kanrei at 2013-03-20 11:22 AM | Reply | Flag:

My heart goes out to Mr. Young, as it would to anyone who is suffering, especially those who have served in combat. However, his letter is full of vague generalities, half-truths, and simple opinion. Based upon the tone, tenor, and content, this letter could have easily been written by Rachel Maddow or Keith Olbermann. Mr. Tomas is certainly entitled to his opinion, but that doesn't make it the truth. I hope this letter provides him some peace and the libs have enough dignity not to use this man's suffering to throw on the pile of BS they use as ammo against the Bush Administration.

#28 | Posted by justanoversight at 2013-03-20 11:24 AM | Reply | Flag:

As we prepare to engage in the PNAC Middle East Party Part III: The Syrian Affair, I applaud every single story that can be brought up to remind us of our folly in the first part. We need to learn this lesson already: stay out of the Middle East! They don't want us there. They don't like us there. Our being there only inspires more violence.

As Ken Kesey said of Serbia: Just fly a Stealth bomber over the country filled with vast amounts of LSD; spray the nation; and let them work it out.

#29 | Posted by kanrei at 2013-03-20 11:27 AM | Reply | Flag:

If those politicians STARTED the gang war for profit and pride like Bush and Cheney did then YES the child should be mad at the politicians.

#26 | POSTED BY SPEAKSOFTLY

This assertion of "profit and pride" just makes you sound like an unstable goofball. It's really hard to take someone seriously who holds such beliefs.

#30 | Posted by justanoversight at 2013-03-20 11:28 AM | Reply | Flag:

We free Iraq so they elect Iran.
We free Libya and they thank us with Benghazi.
Learn already damnit!

#31 | Posted by kanrei at 2013-03-20 11:30 AM | Reply | Flag:

The city politician did not order the kid to go out and play on the street at the exact time he knew there would be a drive by, did he? He's got no direct responsiblity for the situation.
#25 | POSTED BY SULLY

You may have noticed that we have a volunteer army these days. Tomas Young enlisted, the following year he re-enlisted. Choice

George W Bush had direct repsonsbility for order this man to go to war.
#25 | POSTED BY SULLY
Please review the voting on the Authorization for Use of Military Force Against Iraq.

You can't acknowledge who started the war
#25 | POSTED BY SULLY

Saddam Hussein started this war, See United Nations Security Council Resolution 1441 and Security Council Resolution 1373. You are doing a good job on your righteous indignation, an A+ effort.

#32 | Posted by paneocon at 2013-03-20 11:36 AM | Reply | Flag:

If those politicians STARTED the gang war for profit and pride like Bush and Cheney did then
#26 | POSTED BY SPEAKSOFTLY

Go ahead and prove that one, I can use a good laugh today.

#33 | Posted by paneocon at 2013-03-20 11:38 AM | Reply | Flag:

You may have noticed that we have a volunteer army these days. Tomas Young enlisted, the following year he re-enlisted.

Is a choice based on false info really a choice? If I tell you that you can take the Left door or the Right door, but the Left door leads to certain death and you choose the Right door and die because I lied, did you really choose?

#34 | Posted by kanrei at 2013-03-20 11:38 AM | Reply | Flag:

#31 | POSTED BY KANREI

Well said.

#35 | Posted by paneocon at 2013-03-20 11:39 AM | Reply | Flag:

RE #34: My understanding is that you swear an oath to defend the constitution upon enlistment into the military. This generally does not include the choice of how or where the constitution is defended.

#36 | Posted by justanoversight at 2013-03-20 11:50 AM | Reply | Flag:

My understanding is that you swear an oath to defend the constitution upon enlistment into the military.

Right. And suppose you are told the Constitution is in danger and you join up to defend it and it isn't. Did you really choose or were you tricked?

#37 | Posted by kanrei at 2013-03-20 11:52 AM | Reply | Flag:

Yes, my guard stood hard when abstract threats
Too noble to neglect
Deceived me into thinking
I had something to protect

Bob Dylan
My Back Pages

#38 | Posted by kanrei at 2013-03-20 11:56 AM | Reply | Flag:

I have, like many other disabled veterans, suffered from the inadequate and often inept care provided by the Veterans Administration
Tomas Young

#16 | POSTED BY PANEOCON

Say it isn't so....

Is a choice based on false info really a choice? - Kanrei

I don't believe enlisting is a "false" choice, certainly reenlisting isn't a false choice, you know the job....

If you join the military, be prepared to die, its just the nature of the job. While I feel for Tomas predicament, he is blaming other people for his choices, maybe he is going through the anger phase of coming to terms with your own immortality.

Whats interesting, which the libbies here seem to avoid, he joined the military. Probably with all the pomp and circumstance of killing Muslims. Why doesn't that disgust you ?

#39 | Posted by AndreaMackris at 2013-03-20 11:57 AM | Reply | Flag:

If I cut off my fingers on a Delta Table Saw, do I blame the Delta CEO?

#40 | Posted by wisgod at 2013-03-20 12:00 PM | Reply | Flag:

What do you know...my 34 wasn't a strawman after all.

#41 | Posted by kanrei at 2013-03-20 12:01 PM | Reply | Flag:

I mean my 24, not 34.

#42 | Posted by kanrei at 2013-03-20 12:02 PM | Reply | Flag:

"If I cut off my fingers on a Delta Table Saw, do I blame the Delta CEO?"

maybe that's not the best example. people sue companies (and their officers) for product liability all the time......and win occasionally.

#43 | Posted by eberly at 2013-03-20 12:05 PM | Reply | Flag:

The Iraq invasion along with the Bush tax cuts were not mistakes, they were intentionally committed crimes that had a purpose of benefiting the oil industry and bankrupting the government in order to destory SS and Medicare. These guys belong in jail and I do hold Barack Obama accountable for the fact that they were not prosecuted. Nancy Pelosi as well for taking impeachment off of the table when the Dems got control of the House in 2006.

#44 | Posted by danni at 2013-03-20 12:16 PM | Reply | Flag:

"and I do hold Barack Obama accountable for the fact that they were not prosecuted."

by proudly voting for him twice.

#45 | Posted by eberly at 2013-03-20 12:19 PM | Reply | Flag:

"by proudly voting for him twice."

Was there someone running on a platform of bring charges against them?

#46 | Posted by danni at 2013-03-20 12:26 PM | Reply | Flag:

Voting in American elections is usually a choice between two candidates, I always pick the one that most closely represents my views, so far it has always been the Democrat. So sue me.

#47 | Posted by danni at 2013-03-20 12:27 PM | Reply | Flag:

"So sue me."

for what?

most partisan hacks lack a pot and a window.

#49 | Posted by eberly at 2013-03-20 12:30 PM | Reply | Flag:

Whats interesting, which the libbies here seem to avoid, he joined the military. Probably with all the pomp and circumstance of killing Muslims. Why doesn't that disgust you ?

#39 | Posted by AndreaMackris at 2013-03-20 11:57 AMFlag: (Choose)
FunnyNewsworthyOffensiveAbusiv
e

Perhaps because we still have the concepts of citizen soldier and honorable warrior.

Your definition of soldier is someone who made his choices and got what he deserved, or at least should have expected.

I'm with SULLY: Its all so very low-classed. The time is coming when the Right will view soldiers as being "the scum of the earth", as did Wellington.

#50 | Posted by Zed at 2013-03-20 12:32 PM | Reply | Flag:

Look on the bright side- Obama has started far more fights and he isn't using troops at all. Just like his drones solved the Gitmo problem by not taking prisoners and just killing everyone, so too has he solved the injured soldier and PTSD problem. America doesn't care about killing so long as it doesn't risk anything.

#51 | Posted by kanrei at 2013-03-20 12:34 PM | Reply | Flag:

Paneocon continues to be the poster boy for the no account, amoral partisan culture that is ruining this country.

You blame this guy for enlisting in the military. Its his fault that he was stupid enough to enlist in the first place, basically. Because he enlisted in the military he deserves to be used as a disposable pawn by crooks and liars.

The CIC has no responsiblity to his troops to only put them in harm's when when necessary? And to be honest about why he is doing so?

What a disgusting, horrible excuse for an American you are.

#52 | Posted by sully at 2013-03-20 12:37 PM | Reply | Flag:

"If I cut off my fingers on a Delta Table Saw, do I blame the Delta CEO?"

That you think this is a relative comparison is indicative of funamental inability to think logically.

Selling table saws is not the same thing as starting a war knowing full well people who work for you are going to die.......

You should ashamed to portray yourself as being so stupid. And for what? To defend a traitor.

#53 | Posted by Sully at 2013-03-20 12:40 PM | Reply | Flag:

"Whats interesting, which the libbies here seem to avoid, he joined the military."

So anyone who joings our military deserves to be used and betrayed by liars and thieves?

Common decency is dead when people like you could voice such disgusting opinions so obliviously.

#54 | Posted by Sully at 2013-03-20 12:44 PM | Reply | Flag:

The time is coming when the Right will view soldiers as being "the scum of the earth", as did Wellington.
#50 | POSTED BY ZED

Will never happen on the right but the left has a history of spiting on our war heroes and I see no reason the left will not continue to use them and toss them away when they are on longer of any use. Just like Harry Reid did to the 7 Marines that just died in a training accident.

#56 | Posted by paneocon at 2013-03-20 12:46 PM | Reply | Flag:

Before my son joined the Coast Guard he was seriously contemplating the Marine Corps. It is one of the few times I have actively lobbied my son to change his mind on something he wanted to do. It would fill me infinite anger, sorrow, pain and horror were one of my children to be killed, injured or mentally traumatized in a conflict as thoroughly meaningless and pointless and, yes, immoral, as the Iraq invasion. My anger and hatred towards the leaders of this nation would be unquenchable. Bush, Cheney, Powell, Rumsfeld and Rice are all criminals in my opinion. I begrudge no parent of a soldier or soldier their hatred of these individuals.

#57 | Posted by moder8 at 2013-03-20 12:47 PM | Reply | Flag:

"What a prissy Drama Queen.

#55 | Posted by wisgod at 2013-03-20 12:44 PM | Reply | Flag:"

Why? Because I pointed out the complete idiocy of your comparing ordering men to war with manufacturing and selling table saws?

If you don't want to be called out for staying stupid stuff, don't say it. Your comment was utterly moronic.

#58 | Posted by Sully at 2013-03-20 12:49 PM | Reply | Flag:

Using teh table saw: If the table saw was sold as 100%, impossible to cut fingers the same way Iraq was sold as a cakewalk to be greeted with flowers and candy then yes, you could sue the maker of the table saw for false advertising.

#59 | Posted by kanrei at 2013-03-20 12:50 PM | Reply | Flag:

"Will never happen on the right but the left has a history of spiting on our war heroes "

No, you just say they deserve to be used as disposable cannon fodder by liars because you know, they volunteered.

You can't voice such lowlife opinions then play the moral high ground card. Its over. You've exposed yourself for what you are.

#60 | Posted by Sully at 2013-03-20 12:51 PM | Reply | Flag:

-the left has a history of spiting on our war heroes

Yes, FDR was famous for it, right? And all those 'Nam vets who were spit upon...oh, wait... didn't happen.

As it happens, more often than not, it is the left who support health care and benefits for vets, while the "right" has a death grip on their wallets.

#61 | Posted by Corky at 2013-03-20 12:52 PM | Reply | Flag:

If you don't want to be called out for staying stupid stuff, don't say it. Your comment was utterly moronic.

#58 | Posted by Sully

Trust me, getting called anything by you is comical. Sorry it rattled you so.

#62 | Posted by wisgod at 2013-03-20 12:54 PM | Reply | Flag:

"Trust me, getting called anything by you is comical. Sorry it rattled you so.

#62 | Posted by wisgod at 2013-03-20 12:54 PM | Reply | Flag:"

No need to be sorry. I can clalm down. You'll be stupid forever.

#63 | Posted by sully at 2013-03-20 12:59 PM | Reply | Flag:

I must agree with Sully on one point. Being young, patriotic and willing to volunteer to serve our military does not transform that person into cannon fire to be disposed of on the whims and lies of political leaders.

#64 | Posted by moder8 at 2013-03-20 01:02 PM | Reply | Flag:

*cannon fodder

#65 | Posted by moder8 at 2013-03-20 01:03 PM | Reply | Flag:

I can clalm down. You'll be stupid forever.

#63 | Posted by sully

It's spelled c a l m, Einstein.

#66 | Posted by wisgod at 2013-03-20 01:03 PM | Reply | Flag:

It's working like a dream, sir
Half the nation are hooked on the bait
Waiting for the next victorious instalment
We can give them that
'Cause it's no surprise that young men are heroes
It's no surprise that young men are strong
It's no surprise that young men are foolish
We've known that all along
Exciting pictures on News at Ten (I couldn't believe it)
Read all the crap on all the front pages (I never believed it)
Fight the good fight

Chorus:
Dead men in the South Atlantic
It's meant to warm our hearts
They think that they died for you and me
Oh God, what a farce, what a farce

New Model Army

#67 | Posted by kanrei at 2013-03-20 01:04 PM | Reply | Flag:

Clalam is a calm clam =D

#68 | Posted by kanrei at 2013-03-20 01:05 PM | Reply | Flag:

"It's spelled c a l m, Einstein.

#66 | Posted by wisgod at 2013-03-20 01:03 PM | Reply | Flag:"

Ooh a typo. That's surely as bad as being a cretin who thinks making tables saws = sending men to die over a lie. Got me there, hur hur.

#69 | Posted by Sully at 2013-03-20 01:06 PM | Reply | Flag:

No, Sully. Just funny that a guy claiming someone will be stupid forever stepped in it. Carry on.

#70 | Posted by wisgod at 2013-03-20 01:09 PM | Reply | Flag:

This assertion of "profit and pride" just makes you sound like an unstable goofball. It's really hard to take someone seriously who holds such beliefs.

#30 | Posted by justanoversight

Well they've yet to provide another explanation that everyone knows isn't a lie. WMD was a lie. Connection to al queda was a lie.

But they attacked his daddy and his daddy never got the bad guy - so he did it for pride to avenge the plot against his dad and to accomplish something his father failed at.

For cheney - pure profit. He's been making money off oil for most of his life. Why would he stop when he weaseled his way into the white house?

#71 | Posted by SpeakSoftly at 2013-03-20 01:11 PM | Reply | Flag:

"No, Sully. Just funny that a guy claiming someone will be stupid forever stepped in it. Carry on.

#70 | Posted by wisgod at 2013-03-20 01:09 PM | Reply | Flag:"

I can see why you'd hope otherwise, but my point stands: There is no cure for stupid.

#72 | Posted by Sully at 2013-03-20 01:13 PM | Reply | Flag:

Will never happen on the right but the left has a history of spiting on our war heroes and I see no reason the left will not continue to use them and toss them away when they are on longer of any use. Just like Harry Reid did to the 7 Marines that just died in a training accident.

#56 | Posted by paneocon

And the right will keep heaping praise on the suckers who volunteer to point guns at whoever the corporatocracy calls evil.

Let me clue you in on something - we haven't had any war heroes since WW2. You're not a hero if your mission is not heroic.

Modern military members are just people who were suckered by the "hero" propaganda, had no other options, or just wanted to be allowed to legally kill.

What is heroic about helping multinational corporations secure their future profits? That's the modern military's function.

#73 | Posted by SpeakSoftly at 2013-03-20 01:16 PM | Reply | Flag:

#57 | POSTED BY MODER8
#60 | POSTED BY SULLY

Interesting that you have so much animus for Bush and Cheney and the well documented entry into IRAQ but yet no anger towards the John Kennedy and Vietnam? Selective out rage? Any issue with Obama's illegal entry in to Libya?

#74 | Posted by paneocon at 2013-03-20 01:18 PM | Reply | Flag:

Let me clue you in on something - we haven't had any war heroes since WW2. You're not a hero if your mission is not heroic.
#73 | POSTED BY SPEAKSOFTLY

Please go down to your local watering hole and say that loud and clear and come back here and tell us how it works out for you.

#75 | Posted by paneocon at 2013-03-20 01:20 PM | Reply | Flag:

Just another twisted bitter liberal. Death will be his peace.

#76 | Posted by sames1 at 2013-03-20 01:23 PM | Reply | Flag:

Sully has been consistant in his critique of American foreign policy. Including Lybia. What's hypocritical around here is how the lefties won't comment on or current president giving aid to al queda in Syria & Lybia and our draft dodging VP.

#77 | Posted by Dalton at 2013-03-20 01:23 PM | Reply | Flag:

Please go down to your local watering hole and say that loud and clear and come back here and tell us how it works out for you.

#75 | Posted by paneocon

"I don't agree with you so some redneck should beat you up"

How very right wing of you. Your internet toughness is so impressive.

#78 | Posted by SpeakSoftly at 2013-03-20 01:27 PM | Reply | Flag:

I joined the military when I was 18. (That's pronounced "young and stupid.") When I joined, I believed we had learned our lesson from Vietnam, and the military might be used for humanitarian police action over the world, such as Iraq 1 or intervening (however bungled) in things such as genocide in the Bosnian/Serbian area. I joined under the naive belief that the military was there to make a positive difference in the world.

I did not re-enlist. That viewpoint would crumble, as places like Darfur proved that our military has to have an ulterior motive before it deploys. Nothing but a dupe of our nation's corporate masters. Then, we didn't even chase after Bin Laden, but began a war of aggression against Iraq - which couldn't even be argued to be a morally right action in lieu of their dictator. We caused more injuries, deaths, and damage to their nation in a few short years than he ever had. In the real world, not the paranoid made up world of the republicans to secure the votes of the uneducated, Iraq could barely mount a threat to their geographic neighbors, let alone us. People I served with died in that war, in my view, murdered by the scum who lied us into that war, obviously for the corporate profits to be made, as neither the world nor nation benefited from that unfunded debacle.

That is the problem with the military. People join generally for good, often altruistic reasons. Not just the benefits, but having a purpose, making a difference in the world. To protect the United States and its Constitution, not the Halliburton bottom line.

The letter this man wrote says it far better than I can, and he has obviously given far more. A hero who is paying the price the war criminals in our government never will. Someone who's memory I hope will be honored, whom I hope finds peace before he leaves this world. But remember. We on the left hate the military. Not its improper use, just the military. /snark.

#79 | Posted by zeropointnrg at 2013-03-20 01:29 PM | Reply | Flag:

#78 | POSTED BY SPEAKSOFTLY

So anyone who joins the military is now a red neck? You just keep diggin there SPEAKSOFTLY

#80 | Posted by paneocon at 2013-03-20 01:30 PM | Reply | Flag:

#73, re-read the letter or if you have, quit posting. The man in question joined right after 9/11. He didn't join to fight corporate wars either, he joined to fight against someone who attacked us on our own soil. Then was misused, and now dying for it. That is a hero.

Most soldiers still are.

What's important is that we recognize and prosecute the war criminals at the top - and right now, the democrats are to blame for not doing this.

#81 | Posted by zeropointnrg at 2013-03-20 01:31 PM | Reply | Flag:

So anyone who joins the military is now a red neck? You just keep diggin there SPEAKSOFTLY

#80 | Posted by paneocon

Never said that. But if you get into bar fights because someone says something you don't like about the military - you might be a redneck.

#82 | Posted by SpeakSoftly at 2013-03-20 01:33 PM | Reply | Flag:

"Interesting that you have so much animus for Bush and Cheney and the well documented entry into IRAQ but yet no anger towards the John Kennedy and Vietnam? Selective out rage? Any issue with Obama's illegal entry in to Libya?"

I wasn't around for Kennedy. I've said that Obama lied about Libya all along too. We didn't get involved to prevent a massacre, we got involved to help the rebels, including members of Al Queda, conquer Libya. Its not on the same scale as the Iraq lies but it was wrong and shouldn't go unpunished either.

But this is the type of thing that will continue to happen when there are no standards and people are not prosecuted for lying us into conflicts.

#83 | Posted by Sully at 2013-03-20 01:34 PM | Reply | Flag:

I spent 9/12/01 and 9/13/01 debating if I should enlist or not. My nation had not been attacked before in my life and I was not sure how I should react. My cynical nature eventually reminded me I don't trust leaders and war, so I didn't, but I don't begrudge anyone who did. Infact, I feel they were far more brave than I as they gave themselves to a concept few still believe in. It is not their fault they were tricked.

#84 | Posted by kanrei at 2013-03-20 01:34 PM | Reply | Flag:

#79 | POSTED BY ZEROPOINTNRG

www.youtube.com

#85 | Posted by Corky at 2013-03-20 01:35 PM | Reply | Flag:

I don't know Sully prior to posting here, but he has been steady in his anti-war beliefs and a welcome ally in the fight as far as I'm concerned.

#86 | Posted by kanrei at 2013-03-20 01:36 PM | Reply | Flag:

The man in question joined right after 9/11. He didn't join to fight corporate wars either, he joined to fight against someone who attacked us on our own soil. Then was misused, and now dying for it. That is a hero.

#81 | Posted by zeropointnrg

It was already a corporate war before 9/11. 9/11 was a response to our chasing oil around the mideast for decades. People who joined after 9/11 thinking we were attacked out of the blue for no reason were ignorant of history, and that ignorance in many cases lead to their injury or death.

Anyone who enlists now is just enabling the corporatocracy to continue their plunder. Without enlistees we'd have to have a draft. With a draft would come an end to corporate wars because the powerful aren't willing to sacrifice their own children, just the poor ones.

#87 | Posted by SpeakSoftly at 2013-03-20 01:37 PM | Reply | Flag:

Since this has become an IRAQ autopsy, I thought this was pertinent. I could say it better other than to say no boots on the ground in Muslim countries.

The Real Iraq War Lesson
The war has cost over $800 billion so far, with more than 4,400 U.S. soldiers killed and around 32,000 wounded. Hard to argue that the United States has acquired security gains commensurate with that sacrifice.

The Iraq war was a mistake not because the Bush administration lied about the intelligence or because the press wasn't skeptical enough about the claims being made about Saddam Hussein and weapons of mass destruction. The Iraq war wasn't a mistake because there was inadequate planning for postwar reconstruction or insufficient military commitment and engagement by the U.S. after Saddam fell.

But here is the most important thing the Bush administration got wrong. The Bush administration claimed that, postwar, Iraq would become a shining example of democratic capitalism, serving to transform the region and be a U.S. ally helping to check the influence of Iran.

The major lesson of the Iraq war is this: The United States cannot foresee the consequences of our actions with sufficient accuracy to be attempting to micromanage the geopolitics of the Middle East.

This is not a deficiency peculiar to the Bush administration or Republicans. President Barack Obama's Muslim charm offensive was a dud. The Arab Spring caught his administration off guard and flat-footed.

The larger U.S. role in attempting to micromanage the region's geopolitics only even arguably makes sense if we can confidently intervene in ways that are productive rather than destructive. There's a 60-year history that says we can't, Iraq being just the most costly example.

Read more: www.realclearpolitics.com

#88 | Posted by paneocon at 2013-03-20 01:40 PM | Reply | Flag:

And, for what it is worth, most liberals (myself included) have a great deal of animus, especially toward LBJ, for ratcheting up the Vietnam War and consistently lying to the American people about it the entire time. Looking at all the great things he accomplished in America AND all the horrific criminal things he oversaw and lied about in Vietnam, LBJ may well be the most complicated leader to evaluate in American history. Unlike GWB/Cheney who were just plain liars and greedy evil people.

#89 | Posted by moder8 at 2013-03-20 01:42 PM | Reply | Flag:

The major lesson of the Iraq war is this: The United States cannot foresee the consequences of our actions with sufficient accuracy to be attempting to micromanage the geopolitics of the Middle East.


AKA: The Path to Hell is Paved in Good Intent.

A saying I have been posting here for a decade.

#90 | Posted by kanrei at 2013-03-20 01:42 PM | Reply | Flag:

Bin Laden's attack was on our soil Speaksoftly. You fight the war where it's happening, you fight against its combatants. Those people in the towers were attacked out of the blue. Innocents in the issue, civilians. The coward didn't attack an occupying base, he attacked people going to work half a world away.

No, military misuse cannot be defended. Your attacks against the soldiers for not catching "the bigger picture" are what makes the left look bad though.

#91 | Posted by zeropointnrg at 2013-03-20 01:42 PM | Reply | Flag:

"This is not a deficiency peculiar to the Bush administration or Republicans. President Barack Obama's Muslim charm offensive was a dud. The Arab Spring caught his administration off guard and flat-footed."

Yeah, that was just like the Iraq War. This is the kind of politically hack-ish sniveling equivocality writing that should be a "stopped reading right there" warning.

#92 | Posted by Corky at 2013-03-20 01:45 PM | Reply | Flag:

The Iraq war was a mistake not because the Bush administration lied about the intelligence or because the press wasn't skeptical enough about the claims being made about Saddam Hussein and weapons of mass destruction. The Iraq war wasn't a mistake because there was inadequate planning for postwar reconstruction or insufficient military commitment and engagement by the U.S. after Saddam fell.
#88 | Posted by paneocon

Oh whatdoyaknow? Lying a country to war is NOT a mistake. Failing to plan for the postwar is NOT a mistake.

Nice article you got there.

#93 | Posted by SpeakSoftly at 2013-03-20 01:45 PM | Reply | Flag:

"danni, for the umpteenth time....stop trying to defend your partisan loyalty by blaming it on others."

Defend? More like explain to some, like you, who pretends to be superior yet still has the exact same choices when voting as I do. I just don't need to massage my ego by pretending I don't vote with the party that I am a member of.

#94 | Posted by danni at 2013-03-20 01:46 PM | Reply | Flag:

"I don't know Sully prior to posting here, but he has been steady in his anti-war beliefs"

I'm not a pacifist. I just don't believe in entering into war lightly. I'm certainly not looking to get killed for no reason so why would I support sending others to do so on my behalf?

And I believe that any CIC (or his underlings) who lies or deceives in order to justify putting people in harm's way is a traitor and needs to be tried as such. If you're going to ask people to die over a cause then you owe them the truth when it pertains to what that cause is. And before you commit lives that aren't yours to a cause, you should think it through and make damn sure it is worth it and then some. I believe those are the bare minimal standards any decent person would expect of any CIC and that's why it pisses me off so much when people make excuses for this scum. You don't f^ck around when you're playing with the lives of our bravest people.

#95 | Posted by Sully at 2013-03-20 01:50 PM | Reply | Flag:

"A study by Brown University's Watson Institute for International Studies finds that the war has cost $1.7 trillion so far, with an additional $490 billion in benefits owed to war veterans.

Those costs could grow to more than $6 trillion over the next 40 years, the report concluded."

www.latimes.com

The Neocons would love for us to believe that Iraq war only cost $800 Billion.

#96 | Posted by danni at 2013-03-20 01:51 PM | Reply | Flag:

Bin Laden's attack was on our soil Speaksoftly. You fight the war where it's happening, you fight against its combatants. Those people in the towers were attacked out of the blue. Innocents in the issue, civilians. The coward didn't attack an occupying base, he attacked people going to work half a world away.

Your attacks against the soldiers for not catching "the bigger picture" are what makes the left look bad though.

#91 | Posted by zeropointnrg

I'm not attacking the soldiers. I pity them. I blame poor education. INTENTIONALLY poor education that helps the military get more recruits. Uninformed people are much more eager to fight when you tell them to.

I'm not rooting for al queda, but it was US who went and started messing around in THEIR part of the world long before they came here. Al queda just did what you recommend - take the war to where its combatants live.

If there were no oil under their sand, we would never have sent our forces over there decades ago and we would have never heard the words al queda.

#97 | Posted by SpeakSoftly at 2013-03-20 01:51 PM | Reply | Flag:

Lying a country to war is NOT a mistake.
#93 | POSTED BY SPEAKSOFTLY

Look I'm no fan of the Bush doctrine but you got no reasonable proof that this was an intentional lie. This is the worst part of being a liberal. The need for irrational hate with out reason.

This was a Congressional Joint Resolution 114 and UN Security Council Resolution 1441 and Resolution 678. There is more to this than one mans decision and you are experiencing nothing more that Bush derangement syndrome. What you need to understand about you issue is that your rage blinds you to the overreaches of your own party. Wake up it's 2013.

#98 | Posted by paneocon at 2013-03-20 01:54 PM | Reply | Flag:

I'm not attacking the soldiers. I pity them. I blame poor education.

So you are say everyone enlisted is stupid?

Save your pity. I blame those of us who oppose war. We knew and didn't fight hard enough. We thought logic and reason would carry the cause. We didn't count on the power of fear and theory. Sadder still those who did fight no longer do because they don't want to make Obama appear bad.

#99 | Posted by kanrei at 2013-03-20 01:56 PM | Reply | Flag:

I'm not attacking the soldiers. I pity them. I blame poor education. INTENTIONALLY poor education that helps the military get more recruits.
#97 | POSTED BY SPEAKSOFTLY

Keep diggin there SPEAKSOFTLY. I'm sure no member of the military would mind being characterized as stupid by you.

#100 | Posted by paneocon at 2013-03-20 01:56 PM | Reply | Flag:

People who cannot tell the difference between the Iraq War and current foreign policy are myopic.

#101 | Posted by Corky at 2013-03-20 01:58 PM | Reply | Flag:

no reasonable proof that this was an intentional lie.

Yes we do. One example is Rummy's "we know for a fact." Cheney used the words "know" and "fact" alot too. If there is any chance it is wrong, then you don't know. If you are assuming, it is not a fact. There is one lie.

A lie of omission is still a lie. If you say "all intelligence agencies agree" and there is at least one that doesn't, you lied again.

Need more?

#102 | Posted by kanrei at 2013-03-20 01:58 PM | Reply | Flag:

Look I'm no fan of the Bush doctrine but you got no reasonable proof that this was an intentional lie. This is the worst part of being a liberal. The need for irrational hate with out reason.

This was a Congressional Joint Resolution 114 and UN Security Council Resolution 1441 and Resolution 678. There is more to this than one mans decision and you are experiencing nothing more that Bush derangement syndrome. What you need to understand about you issue is that your rage blinds you to the overreaches of your own party. Wake up it's 2013.

#98 | Posted by paneocon a

We have no recording of bush or cheney admitting to a lie, but anyone can tell they they already wanted to attack iraq and were just scrambling for justifications to do so. They knew the WMD info wasn't reliable, but it was what they wanted to hear. They were digging far and wide for anything that could justify the attack.

Congress voted for it because the info they got from the WH was cherry picked.

3 trillion dollars 130000 lives and a divided america is what we got. Does that not enrage you too? And if not, what would?

I'd love to "wake up to 2013" as you say, but until the damage of Bush's 8 years is healed, I'm afraid the nightmare continues...

#103 | Posted by SpeakSoftly at 2013-03-20 01:59 PM | Reply | Flag:

Yes we do. One example is Rummy's "we know for a fact." Cheney used the words "know" and "fact" alot too
#102 | POSTED BY KANREI

Your above that. Get a special prosecutor and see how much laughing you hear.

#104 | Posted by paneocon at 2013-03-20 02:02 PM | Reply | Flag:

We have no recording of bush or cheney admitting to a lie,
Congress voted for it because the info they got from the WH was cherry picked.
#103 | POSTED BY SPEAKSOFTL

So you got nothing. Since when did congress trust the White House, the CIA or the DOD.

#105 | Posted by paneocon at 2013-03-20 02:04 PM | Reply | Flag:

You deny those are lies or just that a special prosecutor wouldn't go after it? Those are two different things. You asked for lies and I provided lies.

Rommy said "we know exactly where they are." He didn't. Therefore that was a lie.

Cheney said repeatedly Saddam was involved with 9-11 hijackers. He said they met in Prague. Another lie.

Do you want me to go on?

#106 | Posted by kanrei at 2013-03-20 02:06 PM | Reply | Flag:

Lie by Lie: A Timeline of How We Got Into Iraq

March 2002 "F--- Saddam. We're taking him out." -- Bush to Rice and three senators. [Date the public knew: 12/8/03]

9/7/02 Bush claims a new UN International Atomic Energy Agency (IAEA) report states Iraq is six months from developing a nuclear weapon. There is no such report.

much more
www.motherjones.com

#107 | Posted by Corky at 2013-03-20 02:10 PM | Reply | Flag:

Do you want me to go on?
#106 | POSTED BY KANREI

No I have too much respect for you to watch you do this to yourself. SPEAKSOFTLY, knock yourself out.

#108 | Posted by paneocon at 2013-03-20 02:10 PM | Reply | Flag:

No I have too much respect for you to watch you do this to yourself.

Do what? I am posting lies told by my government in the rush to war. You have yet to show me in error on any of these. Complimenting me won't change my focus.

#109 | Posted by kanrei at 2013-03-20 02:12 PM | Reply | Flag:

9/8/02 "We do know, with absolute certainty, that he is using his procurement system to acquire the equipment he needs in order to enrich uranium to build a nuclear weapon." -- Cheney on Meet the Press

#110 | Posted by Corky at 2013-03-20 02:13 PM | Reply | Flag:

We have no recording of bush or cheney admitting to a lie,

#103 | POSTED BY SPEAKSOFTL

So you got nothing.

#105 | Posted by paneocon

I suppose you think OJ was innocent too? I mean he never admitted to anything...

#111 | Posted by SpeakSoftly at 2013-03-20 02:13 PM | Reply | Flag:

Paneocon: You have to either be intentionally trolling or be a truly deluded far rightwing hack to still, at this late date, assert that GWB/Cheney were not deliberately lying about 9/11 in order to pump up the argument for invading Iraq.
From an opposite vantage point, it is kind of like Danni arguing that the current Administration has honest and open about what occurred in Benghazi.

#112 | Posted by moder8 at 2013-03-20 02:14 PM | Reply | Flag:

9/13/02 Cheney tells Rush Limbaugh:

"What's happening, of course, is we're getting additional information that, in fact, Hussein is reconstituting his biological, chemical, and nuclear weapons programs."

There is no such new intel."

#113 | Posted by Corky at 2013-03-20 02:14 PM | Reply | Flag:

I suppose you think OJ was innocent too?

There is a new book after 20 years of research that lays out a fairly strong case OJ's son did it; that Ron Pearlman was the target over a drug deal and that Nicole was killed only because she was a witness; that OJ found out shortly after his trial his son did it and that is why he never went after the "real killers."

#114 | Posted by kanrei at 2013-03-20 02:16 PM | Reply | Flag:

9/25/02 "You can't distinguish between Al Qaeda and Saddam when you talk about the war on terror." -- Bush

9/25/02 Citing Libi intel, Rice says: "High-ranking detainees have said that Iraq provided some training to Al Qaeda in chemical weapons development."

#115 | Posted by Corky at 2013-03-20 02:16 PM | Reply | Flag:

"Yes we do. One example is Rummy's "we know for a fact." Cheney used the words "know" and "fact" alot too. If there is any chance it is wrong, then you don't know. If you are assuming, it is not a fact. There is one lie."

You're never going to convince Paneocon of anything. He doesn't believe that people need to be held to any standards when they are playing with the lives of our military, let alone that they should be held to high standards. His "They volunteered" comments told you all you need to know about his lack of regard.

Of course they lied when they said they knew for a fact. Its been proven to be a lie by comments they've made since then. If you look at what they've said before and after the war with the scrutiny of a person who has any concern at all for the people they sent into danger, its obvious that they lied. Anyone who doesn't know they lied just plain doesn't care.

Close to half the country would rather let the dirtbags get away with it than admit they made the mistake of supporting dirtbags. This is what we've become. And its why we are circling the toilet.

#116 | Posted by Sully at 2013-03-20 02:16 PM | Reply | Flag:

#111 | POSTED BY SPEAKSOFTLY

There was tangible evidence to prosecute and a jury to determine the evidence. That is different than a Clown Car rodeo shooting Nerf accusations at invisible boogie men.

#117 | Posted by paneocon at 2013-03-20 02:19 PM | Reply | Flag:

10/8/02 Knight Ridder reports: "[A] growing number of military officers, intelligence professionals and diplomats in his own government privately have deep misgivings about the administration's double-time march toward war. These officials charge that administration hawks have exaggerated evidence of the threat that Iraqi leader Saddam Hussein poses…'Analysts at the working level in the intelligence community are feeling very strong pressure from the Pentagon to cook the intelligence books,' said one official, speaking on condition of anonymity."

#118 | Posted by Corky at 2013-03-20 02:19 PM | Reply | Flag:

You're never going to convince Paneocon of anything. He doesn't believe that people need to be held to any standards when they are playing with the lives of our military, let alone that they should be held to high standards.
#116 | POSTED BY SULLY

If you ever come up with legal level proof I'll be right there beside you but you got nothing.

his "They volunteered" comments told you all you need to know about his lack of regard.
#116 | POSTED BY SULLY

Now that's just dumb. A fully volunteer military is more deserving of respect than a military where because they were drafted.

#119 | Posted by paneocon at 2013-03-20 02:23 PM | Reply | Flag:

10/8/02 Knight Ridder reports: "[A] growing number of military officers, intelligence professionals and diplomats in his own government privately have deep misgivings about the administration's double-time march toward war.
#118 | POSTED BY CORKY

Knight Ridder reports: Alien Artifacts

Bob White Alien Artifact
www.ufoevidence.org

#120 | Posted by paneocon at 2013-03-20 02:27 PM | Reply | Flag:

There was tangible evidence to prosecute and a jury to determine the evidence. That is different than a Clown Car rodeo shooting Nerf accusations at invisible boogie men.

#117 | Posted by paneocon

There's enough evidence on this thread alone provided by Corky and Kanrei to prosecute them. But instead of refuting it you dismiss it with goofy names, stuffing your head further down into the sand. It'd be embarrassing to anyone with any shame.

The accusations are solid not nerf.
Bush and CHeney are not invisible - though i bet they wish they were now.
If you can't refute evidence provided by a clown car rodeo, what does that make you?

#121 | Posted by SpeakSoftly at 2013-03-20 02:27 PM | Reply | Flag:

"There's enough evidence on this thread alone provided by Corky and Kanrei to prosecute them."

not necessarily. most of the lies are just lies....they weren't under oath when they told them.

#122 | Posted by eberly at 2013-03-20 02:28 PM | Reply | Flag:

Corky and Kanrei

Now that is rare to see. Corky and I represent the two sides of the liberal and rarely agree.

#123 | Posted by kanrei at 2013-03-20 02:29 PM | Reply | Flag:

-Alien Artifacts

A story about Republicans?

#124 | Posted by Corky at 2013-03-20 02:30 PM | Reply | Flag:

I don't think anything I posted here is proof of criminal behavior. It is just proof of them lying which was all that was asked for. No winning government has ever been prosecuted and I doubt anyone in power is eager to start.

The reality is that we won and Bush gets off scott free as a result.

#125 | Posted by kanrei at 2013-03-20 02:32 PM | Reply | Flag:

There's enough evidence on this thread alone provided by Corky and Kanrei to prosecute them.
#121 | POSTED BY SPEAKSOFTLY

LMAO Thanks I needed that one. That's rich.

#126 | Posted by paneocon at 2013-03-20 02:32 PM | Reply | Flag:

This is why the German Generals who opposed Hitler were willing to lose the war to get rid of him: they understood that no winner ever gets prosecuted.

#127 | Posted by kanrei at 2013-03-20 02:34 PM | Reply | Flag:

125 posts on a Rinobot thread. Slow news day to be sure

#128 | Posted by paneocon at 2013-03-20 02:36 PM | Reply | Flag:

The reality is that we won and Bush gets off scott free as a result.

#125 | Posted by kanrei

What did we win exactly?

3 trillion in debt?

#129 | Posted by SpeakSoftly at 2013-03-20 02:37 PM | Reply | Flag:

HOw about this....128 posts in an Iraq related thread and not one dump. A record!

#130 | Posted by kanrei at 2013-03-20 02:38 PM | Reply | Flag:

"Calling the war in Iraq a 'mistake' is easy. The reality is more malignant."

The U.S. war with Iraq did not begin 10 years ago when ground forces were unleashed for a dash to Baghdad on March 20, 2003. Nor the day before when limited bombing began. Nor the day after when the massive assault labeled "shock and awe" got under way.

The war really started around 2:40 PM ET on Sept. 11, 2001, while the dust from the fallen twin towers still choked the streets of Lower Manhattan. It was then that Secretary of Defense Donald Rumsfeld, as recorded by Undersecretary Stephen Cambone, said:

"best info fast. Judge whether good enough hit S.H. [Saddam Hussein] at same time. Not only UBL [Osama bin Laden].… Need to move swiftly.… Go massive. Sweep it all up. Things related and not."

As we learned later, by then, not yet six hours after Flight 11 struck the north tower, U.S. intelligence had already informed Rumsfeld this was an attack by al Qaeda and there was no connection to Saddam Hussein. That was still case when the bombs starting falling on Baghdad a year and a half later and is still so today.

Whatever else the ruthless Iraqi dictator did, he was not part of the September 11 plot."

much more

www.dailykos.com

(article link 5-finger discount from Fribo on another thread)

#131 | Posted by Corky at 2013-03-20 02:38 PM | Reply | Flag:

What did we win exactly?


The war. There was no prize. Saddam died. We won.

#132 | Posted by kanrei at 2013-03-20 02:39 PM | Reply | Flag:

The war. There was no prize. Saddam died. We won.

#132 | Posted by kanrei

Saddam dying wasn't our stated goal. Keeping america safe from WMDs and al aqeda were the stated goals. How could we have won when our goal never existed?

#133 | Posted by SpeakSoftly at 2013-03-20 02:43 PM | Reply | Flag:

"Now that's just dumb. A fully volunteer military is more deserving of respect than a military where because they were drafted."

This is pure disigenuous BS on your part. Do you think that nobody is aware of what either of us wrote before you made this comment? I'm the one who has been upholding that position. You're the one whose been saying that this guy's decision to volunteer for the military give him no right to be resentful over his situation.

If you respected the commitment he made when he volunteered, you wouldn't think that, let alone post it in a public forum.

You'd understand that a volunteer soldier who is sent into combat for false reasons has every right to be resentful. The fact that he volunteered doesn't mean that people can just gamble with his life for no reason.

You either don't understand the implications of your own comments or are a horrible double talker.

#134 | Posted by Sully at 2013-03-20 02:46 PM | Reply | Flag:

In the four years since the inspectors left, intelligence reports show that Saddam Hussein has worked to rebuild his chemical and biological weapons stock, his missile delivery capability, and his nuclear program. He has also given aid, comfort, and sanctuary to terrorists, including al Qaeda members ... It is clear, however, that if left unchecked, Saddam Hussein will continue to increase his capacity to wage biological and chemical warfare, and will keep trying to develop nuclear weapons."
-- Sen. Hillary Clinton (D, NY), Oct 10, 2002

#135 | Posted by Dalton at 2013-03-20 02:46 PM | Reply | Flag:

Keeping america safe from WMDs and al aqeda were the stated goals

Tiger and Rock* arguement time =D.

And we did it. Have we been attacked again? Then we won.

* To explain Tiger and Rock:

Lisa: This rock keeps tigers away.

Homer: No it doesn't.

Lisa: Do you see any tigers?

Homer: How much for the rock?

#136 | Posted by kanrei at 2013-03-20 02:47 PM | Reply | Flag:

"Saddam dying wasn't our stated goal. Keeping america safe from WMDs and al aqeda were the stated goals. How could we have won when our goal never existed?"

It was bad for the country. But we weren't militarily defeated. Therefore our CIC doesn't go to trial.

#137 | Posted by Sully at 2013-03-20 02:47 PM | Reply | Flag:

#135 We were all lied to, including Congress.

#138 | Posted by Corky at 2013-03-20 02:47 PM | Reply | Flag:

Snopes deals with all those quotes one by one and provides the missing context for them.

Please don't go pulling a Box-Itch and spam the thread reposting them all.

#139 | Posted by kanrei at 2013-03-20 02:49 PM | Reply | Flag:

uh huh. That's why there are years of quotes going back before Bush or Cheney.

#140 | Posted by Dalton at 2013-03-20 02:50 PM | Reply | Flag:

That's why there are years of quotes going back before Bush or Cheney.

Posted by Dalton at 2013-03-20 02:50 PM

Already dealt with repeatedly.

The quotes pre-Bush come from Clinton's term, pre-1998. What happened in 1998? Now move along to something new please. Already debunked your quote list.

#142 | Posted by kanrei at 2013-03-20 02:52 PM | Reply | Flag:

And we did it. Have we been attacked again? Then we won.

#136 | Posted by kanrei

Totally unrelated to iraq.

The winner of a war has more power after the war than before it.

We have less.

Iraq has less.

Everyone lost.

#143 | Posted by SpeakSoftly at 2013-03-20 02:52 PM | Reply | Flag:

Totally unrelated to iraq.


Not if you would once leave the goal posts alone before posting.

You defined victory as: Keeping america safe from WMDs and al aqeda were the stated goals

#145 | Posted by kanrei at 2013-03-20 02:55 PM | Reply | Flag:

Everyone lost.

#143 | Posted by SpeakSoftly

Iran won.

#146 | Posted by donnerboy at 2013-03-20 03:00 PM | Reply | Flag:

You defined victory as: Keeping america safe from WMDs and al aqeda were the stated goals

#145 | Posted by kanrei
Correct. But nothing we did in iraq did that. So no victory there.

You could also say the iraq war kept us safe from asteroids and godzilla by your logic.

#147 | Posted by SpeakSoftly at 2013-03-20 03:01 PM | Reply | Flag:

You could also say the iraq war kept us safe from asteroids and godzilla by your logic.

#147 | Posted by SpeakSoftly at 2013-03-20 03:01 PM |

Very good. Next time you should probably read my whole post before commenting on it.


Keeping america safe from WMDs and al aqeda were the stated goals

Tiger and Rock* arguement time =D.

And we did it. Have we been attacked again? Then we won.

* To explain Tiger and Rock:

Lisa: This rock keeps tigers away.

Homer: No it doesn't.

Lisa: Do you see any tigers?

Homer: How much for the rock?

#136 | Posted by kanrei at 2013-03-20 02:47 PM

Read the parts in bold. Maybe that will help.

#148 | Posted by kanrei at 2013-03-20 03:03 PM | Reply | Flag:

#148 | Posted by kanrei
Well since youre quoting from the simpsons I hope to god you realize they were MOCKING people to whom that is acceptable logic. Since homer is the epitome of stupidity and all...

If were were being funny you should be more clear about it, because there are people on this site stupid enough to try and use that argument literally.

#149 | Posted by SpeakSoftly at 2013-03-20 03:06 PM | Reply | Flag:

Bin Laden's attack was on our soil Speaksoftly. You fight the war where it's happening, you fight against its combatants. Those people in the towers were attacked out of the blue. Innocents in the issue, civilians. The coward didn't attack an occupying base, he attacked people going to work half a world away.
No, military misuse cannot be defended. Your attacks against the soldiers for not catching "the bigger picture" are what makes the left look bad though.
#91 | Posted by zeropointnrg at 2013-03-20 01:42 PM

..and nobody could have envisioned the alleged "UBL attack" as eminent? Even with 10-50 qualified intelligence documents claiming otherwise up until the moment of the terrorist attack? Wasn't there some flap about one Presidential Daily Briefing that described in more specifics - something "important"?

Perhaps there is something to be said for the Pentagon planning the plane crashing into itself just six months prior.. at the same time as Tony Blairs 'Iraq's Weapons of Mass Destruction' intelligence briefing was compiled for the public? Coincidence, obviously.

You really should watch Hubris: Selling The Iraq War. It's only 45 minutes, check the timeline of intelligence sourcing much more skeptically this time around.

#150 | Posted by redlightrobot at 2013-03-20 03:09 PM | Reply | Flag:

Well since youre quoting from the simpsons I hope to god you realize they were MOCKING people to whom that is acceptable logic.

Sad day when someone is dim enough to actually think that needed explaining.

If were were being funny you should be more clear about it

Like the =D I posted?

there are people on this site stupid enough to try and use that argument literally.

I guess there are as you thought it was a literal arguement. Even after I made it clear it wasn't.

#151 | Posted by kanrei at 2013-03-20 03:10 PM | Reply | Flag:

No one is more responsible for 9/11 than Dick Cheney.

He made it possible for the planes to hit their targets that day.

#152 | Posted by clownshack at 2013-03-20 03:10 PM | Reply | Flag:

#152: Please explain.

#153 | Posted by moder8 at 2013-03-20 03:15 PM | Reply | Flag:

I guess there are as you thought it was a literal arguement. Even after I made it clear it wasn't.

#151 | Posted by kanrei

You confused me by claiming the iraq war was a success and a win. Using the simpsons to then support your argument is kind of like discrediting yourself, no?

#154 | Posted by SpeakSoftly at 2013-03-20 03:15 PM | Reply | Flag:

#153 | POSTED BY MODER8

You didn't know that Dick Cheney was in charge of all evil?

#155 | Posted by paneocon at 2013-03-20 03:16 PM | Reply | Flag:

No, it is mocking you actually. I posted it because your asking how we won in Iraq is just so stupid of a question that the only way to respond is to openly mock you.

#156 | Posted by kanrei at 2013-03-20 03:17 PM | Reply | Flag:

You didn't know that Dick Cheney was in charge of all evil?

#155 | Posted by paneocon at 2013-03-20 03:16 PM |

Not all. The Grinch is still in charge of stealing Christmas and Mr Wimple still squeezes the Charmin, but Cheney's got all the rest.

#157 | Posted by kanrei at 2013-03-20 03:18 PM | Reply | Flag:

No, it is mocking you actually. I posted it because your asking how we won in Iraq is just so stupid of a question that the only way to respond is to openly mock you.

#156 | Posted by kanrei a

THe only thing worthy of mocking is the idea that burning 3 trillion dollars and killing 130000 people for no reason is A WIN. And anyone who thinks so is a fool.

#158 | Posted by SpeakSoftly at 2013-03-20 03:20 PM | Reply | Flag:

THe only thing worthy of mocking is the idea that burning 3 trillion dollars and killing 130000 people for no reason is A WIN

That would be the cost, not the end result. The US and Iraq went to war. We overthrew their government and installed a new one. That means we won. Period.

The problem with a bleeding heart is that it deprives the brain of much needed oxygen.

#159 | Posted by kanrei at 2013-03-20 03:23 PM | Reply | Flag:

Maybe, if you spent some time reading PNAC, you would see what the actual goals of our invading Iraq were. It was a victory. We did exactly what we set out to do.

#160 | Posted by kanrei at 2013-03-20 03:25 PM | Reply | Flag:

No, it is mocking you actually. I posted it because your asking how we won in Iraq is just so stupid of a question that the only way to respond is to openly mock you.
#156 | Posted by kanrei
THe only thing worthy of mocking is the idea that burning 3 trillion dollars and killing 130000 people for no reason is A WIN. And anyone who thinks so is a fool.
#158 | Posted by SpeakSoftly at 2013-03-20 03:20 PM

Most articles downplay the actual sum to 84 billion.

Rumsfeld and Cheney predicted the "war" would last under 9 months.

If "America" is stealing Iraq oil it isn't helping prices one bit.

On the other hand - look at what "American" families do own the rights to the oil now that it's been taken from the hands of Iraqi poor. Even the "reconstruction" contractors are parasites, their associations are scum bilking both America and Iraq.

#161 | Posted by redlightrobot at 2013-03-20 03:26 PM | Reply | Flag:

Still the lefty authoritarians attacking bush, can't see the forest through the trees.

#162 | Posted by moneywar at 2013-03-20 03:28 PM | Reply | Flag:

Most articles downplay the actual sum to 84 billion

Don't confuse him with facts; he's on a roll.

He would rather argue with me who says the war was a waste, war crimes were committed, and the only reason Bush isn't being charged is because no power on Earth wants to be the first one to charge a victor with war crimes.

#163 | Posted by kanrei at 2013-03-20 03:29 PM | Reply | Flag:

That would be the cost, not the end result. The US and Iraq went to war. We overthrew their government and installed a new one. That means we won. Period.

The problem with a bleeding heart is that it deprives the brain of much needed oxygen.

#159 | Posted by kanrei

The problem with chickenhawks is they think war is just a big game of football and they somehow feel better about themselves if they think they team they root for beat the other one.

Did we accomplish our goal of getting WMDs? NOPE. Loss.

Did we weaken al queda? NOPE. They weren't there. Loss.

Did we strengthen our country? NOPE. Weakened. Loss.

But to you, their leader is gone, and even though that wasn't our stated goal and we're 3 trillion in the toilet, you think you get to do a touchdown dance?

#164 | Posted by SpeakSoftly at 2013-03-20 03:30 PM | Reply | Flag:

The reason I ask for an explanation is because I have no doubt whatsoever that Cheney exploited 9/11 and lied about it dozens of time. But I haven't seen any evidence, other than bs conspiracy theories, that leads me to believe he had anything whatsoever to do with the actual 9/11 attacks. In fact, I haven't seen a shred of credible evidence whatsoever that the US government had any genuine advance intelligence of an imminent 9/11 type attack.

#165 | Posted by moder8 at 2013-03-20 03:31 PM | Reply | Flag:


The problem with chickenhawks is they think war is just a big game of football and they somehow feel better about themselves if they think they team they root for beat the other one.


ROFLMAO!

You are seriously calling me a chickenhawk? That I am pro-war? HAHAHAHA!

#166 | Posted by kanrei at 2013-03-20 03:32 PM | Reply | Flag:

You are seriously calling me a chickenhawk? That I am pro-war? HAHAHAHA!

#166 | Posted by kanrei

you sure are bragging like one.

#167 | Posted by SpeakSoftly at 2013-03-20 03:34 PM | Reply | Flag:

#167

he's not bragging.

#168 | Posted by eberly at 2013-03-20 03:35 PM | Reply | Flag:


The reason I ask for an explanation is because I have no doubt whatsoever that Cheney exploited 9/11 and lied about it dozens of time. But I haven't seen any evidence, other than bs conspiracy theories, that leads me to believe he had anything whatsoever to do with the actual 9/11 attacks. In fact, I haven't seen a shred of credible evidence whatsoever that the US government had any genuine advance intelligence of an imminent 9/11 type attack.

Posted by moder8 at 2013-03-20 03:31 PM |

9/11 would fall under "acceptible losses" so that they could enact PNAC.

you sure are bragging like one.

#167 | Posted by SpeakSoftly at 2013-03-20 03:34 PM

Hardly bragging. Spend some time and read my posts here. Half of them are me proving CHeney lied us into a war. Real Chickenhawk position, huh?

#169 | Posted by kanrei at 2013-03-20 03:37 PM | Reply | Flag:

#160 | POSTED BY KANREI

Here is my cost benefit analysis on IRAQ.

cost
$800 billion in treasure
4,400 U.S. soldiers killed
32,000 wounded
Damage to our foreign ally relationships
weakened military condition prior to critical war with IRAN
Possible terminal damage to the Republican party
The election and re-election of Barack Obama and all that has occurred because to that.

benefits
A semi functional democracy as long as it lasts (nation building)
An end to Saddam Hussein

Not looking like a good deal to me.

#170 | Posted by paneocon at 2013-03-20 03:38 PM | Reply | Flag:

Not looking like a good deal to me.

#170 | Posted by paneocon at 2013-03-20 03:38 PM

I didn't say it was a good deal. Quite the opposite infact. Neither of these expresses that it was good deal:

It is just proof of them lying which was all that was asked for. No winning government has ever been prosecuted and I doubt anyone in power is eager to start.

The reality is that we won and Bush gets off scott free as a result.

#125 | Posted by kanrei at 2013-03-20 02:32 PMFlag: (Choose)
FunnyNewsworthyOffensiveAbusiv
e

This is why the German Generals who opposed Hitler were willing to lose the war to get rid of him: they understood that no winner ever gets prosecuted.

#127 | Posted by kanrei at 2013-03-20 02:34 PM |

#171 | Posted by kanrei at 2013-03-20 03:40 PM | Reply | Flag:

In fact, I haven't seen a shred of credible evidence whatsoever that the US government had any genuine advance intelligence of an imminent 9/11 type attack.
#165 | POSTED BY MODER8

That's an honest appraisal, I hope you're contagious to the DR left

#172 | Posted by paneocon at 2013-03-20 03:41 PM | Reply | Flag:

Here is the really funny part: the guy calling me a Chickenhawk said this of me earlier this thread:

There's enough evidence on this thread alone provided by Corky and Kanrei to prosecute them.
#121 | POSTED BY SPEAKSOFTLY


Now THAT is funny!

#173 | Posted by kanrei at 2013-03-20 03:41 PM | Reply | Flag:

Not looking like a good deal to me.

#170 | Posted by paneocon

Dont forget the total cost of medical care and rebuilding the military brings that total closer to 3-6 trillion. That money couldve saved schools, sick people, poor people, hell even gone to tax cuts for the greedy rich if that's your thing, but instead it was pissed away.

And how do you quantify the damage done by splitting the american people down the middle? We were united after 9/11, but iraq made the anti war and pro war sides split at that point and we haven't gotten along since.

#174 | Posted by SpeakSoftly at 2013-03-20 03:42 PM | Reply | Flag:

There's a dying vet who lives down my street.

He's 77 years old and has alzheimer's.

He performed emergency surgery on my dog Max back in 2004 to keep him from dying from a twisted intestine.

#175 | Posted by kamakiri at 2013-03-20 03:44 PM | Reply | Flag:

Now THAT is funny!

#173 | Posted by kanrei

THen relax. Chickenhawk was the wrong word. A chicken hawk roots for a war they don't want to fight in.

WHat do you call a person who you brags about winning a war that did nothing but hurt the nation? A KANREIHAWK? Maybe just a fool...

#176 | Posted by SpeakSoftly at 2013-03-20 03:45 PM | Reply | Flag:

The reason I ask for an explanation is because I have no doubt whatsoever that Cheney exploited 9/11 and lied about it dozens of time. But I haven't seen any evidence, other than bs conspiracy theories, that leads me to believe he had anything whatsoever to do with the actual 9/11 attacks. In fact, I haven't seen a shred of credible evidence whatsoever that the US government had any genuine advance intelligence of an imminent 9/11 type attack.
#165 | Posted by moder8 at 2013-03-20 03:31 PM

I agree - it was all designed by the Pentagon.

Honestly, Rabbi Dov S. Zacheim was a lynchpin, imo. As a note of possible interest his Israeli business is putting remote controls into commercial jets. On September 10th, 2001 when Rumsfeld said there would be "dire consequences to the investigation of the missing 2.3 missing trillions from the Pentagon" (it's actually over 9 trillion), little did anyone know the next day would be a terrorist invasion.. other than high-ranking Pentagon officials.. like Donald Rumsfeld and Rabbi Dov S. Zacheim. The invasion of the Pentagon by possibly over 100 Israeli spies prior to war was another.

You also know that allegedly over one billion in gold bouillon was moved under the tower weeks prior to the attack, and nobody mentions they were raided just hours prior..

The buildings leaseholder made a couple billion off the destruction of the towers - a rather obnoxiously "lucky" individual, or someone who would purposefully "pull it" off for the money?

#177 | Posted by redlightrobot at 2013-03-20 03:46 PM | Reply | Flag:

WHat do you call a person who you brags about winning a war that did nothing but hurt the nation? A KANREIHAWK? Maybe just a fool...

Posted by SpeakSoftly at 2013-03-20 03:45 PM |

Spend a few hours on RIF.org. It will help you greatly.

#178 | Posted by kanrei at 2013-03-20 03:47 PM | Reply | Flag:

Please explain.
#153 | POSTED BY MODER8 AT 2013-03-20 03:15 PM

Sure, someone needs to open your subjugated eyes.

As just one example, Dick Cheney was in charge of all counter-terrorism exercises, activities and responses on 9/11. See this Department of State announcement; this CNN article; and this essay.

The genius Mr. Cheney apparently scheduled 5 war games for the morning of 9/11. Specifically, on the very morning of September 11th, five war games and terror drills were being conducted by several U.S. defense agencies, purportedly including one "live fly" exercise using real planes. Then-Acting Head of the Joint Chiefs of Staff, Air Force General Richard B. Myers, admitted to 4 of the war games in congressional testimony -- see transcript here or video here (6 minutes and 12 seconds into the video.

False radar blips were inserted onto air traffic control screens as part of the war game exercises, which may have confused the heck out of the people participating in those exercises (see this December 9, 2001 Toronto Star article; pay-per-view; reprinted here). Way to let that one slip through, Mr. in-charge-of-all-war-games.

The military – under the Vice President's command that day – didn't scramble enough fighter jets, and then scrambled jets far over the Atlantic Ocean, in what Senator Mark Dayton called:

The most gross incompetence and dereliction of responsibility and negligence that I've ever, under those extreme circumstances, witnessed in the public sector.

And the knucklehead personally watched flight 77 for many miles, but – according to Secretary of Transportation Norm Minetta – stopped it from being shot down before it hit the Pentagon (and see this).


http:// www.washingtonsblog.com/2011/ 12/the-failure-to-investigate- 911-has-bankrupted- america.html

#179 | Posted by ClownShack at 2013-03-20 03:56 PM | Reply | Flag:

www.washingtonsblog.com

#180 | Posted by ClownShack at 2013-03-20 03:57 PM | Reply | Flag:

We rehash this old crap no end. One of my biggest current problems is the left continuing to be completely complicit by omission. This thread has moved quickly, but looking over it, over a hundred posts ago, people like Danni, who really hold Obama's "feet to the fire." If you didn't vote third party rather than Bush III, you're part of the hypocritical left. Fine with your own party either committing the same crimes or failing to hold previous administrations accountable.

#181 | Posted by zeropointnrg at 2013-03-20 03:58 PM | Reply | Flag:

#125 | Posted by kanrei
What did we win exactly?
3 trillion in debt?

#129 | POSTED BY SPEAKSOFTLY AT 2013-03-20 02:37 PM | FLAG:

A foot hold in the Middle East to ensure that we can continue to exploit the last remaining major deposit of CHEAP and abundant oil.

Once that goes away, or becomes prohibitively expensive, you can say goodbye to the standard living that we currently enjoy. The world won't collapse, but people will certainly be thinking twice before driving out to their cottage or buying strawberries in the middle of winter (northern states). All stocks become over valued, unless the pace of wages and spending is able to keep up. The laundry list of problems goes on and on.

Was it worth the lives of all of those fallen soldiers? Hell no!

Energy (oil specifically) is what makes the world turn. It is both literally and figuratively POWER, in this day and age. That's not going to change.

#182 | Posted by curisemssl at 2013-03-20 03:59 PM | Reply | Flag:

We rehash this old crap no end. One of my biggest current problems is the left continuing to be completely complicit by omission. This thread has moved quickly, but looking over it, over a hundred posts ago, people like Danni, who really hold Obama's "feet to the fire." If you didn't vote third party rather than Bush III, you're part of the hypocritical left. Fine with your own party either committing the same crimes or failing to hold previous administrations accountable.
#181 | Posted by zeropointnrg at 2013-03-20 03:58 PM

So, you didn't watch the video. Why are you a BushCo apologist?

Your precious administration invented the threat of Saddam Hussein - yes, he was armed with chemical weapons in the 80's by Neoconservatives in office. Amazingly, those same Neoconservatives were in office during the allegedly invented 9/11, it's terrorism rationale and our military response.

Which party is the hypocrites? Who obstructs 9/11 investigations? Who outsourced the handling of the EVIDENCE to China? Who appointed the NIST panel? Who decides we can't pursue prosecution of an American ex-president and his entire cabinet of traitors?

Also, when Hillary Clinton voted "yes" for the illegal invasion of Iraq did you understand her qualifiers that military force would be a "last resort"? Which party was she representing at the time? Will her indirect compliance to BushCo disallow her 2016 Presidential nomination?

#183 | Posted by redlightrobot at 2013-03-20 04:10 PM | Reply | Flag:

If you didn't vote third party rather than Bush III, you're part of the hypocritical left. Fine with your own party either committing the same crimes or failing to hold previous administrations accountable.

#181 | Posted by zeropointnrg

Obama sucks for sure. But he's ending wars where Bush started them. That's not quite the same.

Both parties are slaves to banks and war profiteers. But dems also want to help the poor and protect the planet and check the food supply.

A lib can vote dem and get war and electic cars. Or he can vote third party, the repubs will win, and he'll get war and gas guzzlers.

Sad that you have to vote the lesser of two evils. Until we get public election financing this will continue and 3rd party votes will continue to be wasted.

#184 | Posted by SpeakSoftly at 2013-03-20 04:12 PM | Reply | Flag:

"If you didn't vote third party rather than Bush III, you're part of the hypocritical left."

Yeah, sure wish I would have done that so we could have President Romney today. If football quarterbacks would throw the ball to the cheerleaders it would be a whole new game!

#185 | Posted by danni at 2013-03-20 04:18 PM | Reply | Flag:

A lib can vote dem and get war and electic cars. and healthcare reform along with some Wall St. reform. Much more and most importantly, a Republican doesn't get to appoint another SC justice. Y'all can stand on principle all you want but I care about the real world I live in and my kids and grandkids live in. I'll keep voting Democrat and supporting a change agenda which is actually achievable.

#186 | Posted by danni at 2013-03-20 04:21 PM | Reply | Flag:

My precious administration 183? No, no, no. My attack comes from the left. Obama is so near to the neocons to me as to make no difference, and the left lets him be for the D after his name.

And 184, perhaps not. The left has lost its moral compass, and now sits rudderless in a sea of Obama apologists. I sometimes wish Romney had won, to give us back a voice and opposition, as well as for future left wing candidates to see that they will not win for selling out their base and their ideals. Long term, one term of reminding how bad Republicanism is may have done our nation some good.

#187 | Posted by zeropointnrg at 2013-03-20 04:27 PM | Reply | Flag:

"Y'all can stand on principle all you want but I care more about partisan hackery than I care about my kids or grandkids"

ft

#188 | Posted by eberly at 2013-03-20 04:27 PM | Reply | Flag:

The left has lost its moral compass, and now sits rudderless in a sea of Obama apologists.

#187 | Posted by zeropointnrg

The left still exists, but it has no representation in washington because it's interests are the opposite of the corporations that control the capitol and own the media conglomerates.

You have to get big money in order to run for office. You have to sell out to get big money. Repubs are fine with it because they want the same thing that the rich corporations want. It's trickier for the left, because they need corporate money to run, but don't have a corporate agenda. So they abandon the agenda in favor of the money. It's the nature of our elections. Until we get public election financing, nothing will change.

#189 | Posted by SpeakSoftly at 2013-03-20 04:32 PM | Reply | Flag:

"If you didn't vote third party rather than Bush III, you're part of the hypocritical left."
Yeah, sure wish I would have done that so we could have President Romney today. If football quarterbacks would throw the ball to the cheerleaders it would be a whole new game!
#185 | Posted by danni at 2013-03-20 04:18 PM

Ironic Truth Flag.

#190 | Posted by redlightrobot at 2013-03-20 04:35 PM | Reply | Flag:

The left has lost its moral compass, and now sits rudderless in a sea of Obama apologists.

#187 | Posted by zeropointnrg

Yes, if one defines the "left" as DNC Obamabots. If that's "the left," count me out.

#191 | Posted by nullifidian at 2013-03-20 04:37 PM | Reply | Flag:

No one can arrest Bush or Cheney. Some people are above the law. That's the new American way.

#192 | Posted by Buffalo_Bob at 2013-03-20 05:39 PM | Reply | Flag:

Maybe this is the wrong thread, and I know it has been discussed a hundred other times, but reading Clownshack and RedLightRobot's posts above, I still am taken aback that so many otherwise rational people seem to truly believe that our own government either actually helped carry out the 9/11 attacks, or else truly knew about them advance and did nothing.

It seems that in our modern internet society, any event is subject to being viewed through the "truther" lens of government conspiracy.

#193 | Posted by moder8 at 2013-03-20 06:19 PM | Reply | Flag:

Obama sucks for sure. But he's ending wars where Bush started them. That's not quite the same.
#184 | POSTEDBY SPEAKSOFTLY AT 2013-03-20 04:12 PM

He ended one war according the agreements left behind by our previous criminal in chief.

Meanwhile, he expanded and prolonged our other occupation where plenty of young Americans have died. *sniff*

If an injured "Right-War (tm)" vet writes Obama a nasty letter, you'll be among the first to toss him under a bus explaining that his death was for the good of the electric car industry.

#194 | Posted by LIVE_OR_DIE at 2013-03-20 06:25 PM | Reply | Flag:

It seems that in our modern internet society, any event is subject to being viewed through the "truther" lens of government conspiracy.

#193 | Posted by moder8 at 2013-03-20 06:19 PM | Reply | Flag

You mock those seeking the truth and think you have the moral high ground. Interesting. Sickening, but interesting.

#195 | Posted by Buffalo_Bob at 2013-03-20 06:26 PM | Reply | Flag:

#193 | POSTED BY MODER8 AT 2013-03-20 06:19 PM

Pat yourself on the back Mod, you're part of the reason Bush and Cheney will never be held accountable for their war crimes.

Perhaps you can explain #179. Or why Tower 7 fell.

But you can't, and wont.

Better to be subjugated your whole life than admit the government is capable of great evil when they believe they can get away with it.

#196 | Posted by ClownShack at 2013-03-20 06:31 PM | Reply | Flag:

At and shortly after 9/11, I thought the truthers were sick.

Now, I'm still not buying it, but it gets under my skin a little - after all, who benefitted from the Iraq war? Certainly not the US as a whole, shuddering to bare the financial burden it has left it with, and seeing no benefit of that cheap oil tutmoses was going on about. Cerainly not the 100's of thousands of Iraqi dead. So who did?

Defense contractors, crony capitalists, and anyone who wanted to see American freedoms and the Bill of Rights attacked. Most definitely that last one - anyone who wanted to see a sudden massive increase in government power and intrusion into the lives of its citizens, its ability to put its nose anywhere in the world it wanted under the blanket of the oh-so-noble "war on terrorism." An ever-encroaching police state at home, where habeus corpus and protections against illegal search and seizure no longer apply, where people can be accused and detained and no longer know the accusation or the accuser.

I hope these things are just a little paranoia creeping in.

#197 | Posted by zeropointnrg at 2013-03-20 06:39 PM | Reply | Flag:

Halliburton, Blackwater, Bechtel, arms-manufacturers, they were all winners. Of course, the 4 Blackwater mercenaries who got strung up were losers. lol

#198 | Posted by nullifidian at 2013-03-20 06:45 PM | Reply | Flag:

. Of course, the 4 Blackwater mercenaries who got strung up were losers. lol#198 | POSTED BY NULLIFIDIAN AT 2013-03-20 06:45 PM

Refresh my memory, didn't those guys also get BBQ'ed to a blackened crisp?

Haha. =]

#199 | Posted by LIVE_OR_DIE at 2013-03-20 06:50 PM | Reply | Flag:

Or why Tower 7 fell.
But you can't, and wont.
Better to be subjugated your whole life than admit the government is capable of great evil when they believe they can get away with it.

#196 | POSTED BY CLOWNSHACK

A wing section from Flight 11 went spinning wildly upon impact into Tower 1, and sheared down Tower 7 like a scythe.

#200 | Posted by brilliantbart at 2013-03-20 07:01 PM | Reply | Flag:

The wing even boomeranged around Towers 5 and 6; and struck Tower 7 from the North.

Incredible but true.

#201 | Posted by brilliantbart at 2013-03-20 07:03 PM | Reply | Flag:

"Meanwhile, he expanded and prolonged our other occupation where plenty of young Americans have died. *sniff*"

You want to look at it purely from an American perspective, I understand that. However, there is also an Afghan perspective. We invaded Afghanistan and told the people there we were going to bring them democracy and much more, modernity. That was under George W. Bush. Many Afghans listened to us and joined the Afghan military, their police force, their government. Many reported Taliban in their communities. They did many things to assist the American invaders who promised so much. Now we elect a new President and you want us to just pull up and leave those people to fend for themselves against the Taliban. Sorry, that would be immoral. We have a duty to, at least, try and leave that nation stabilized and with the military and police necessary to protect themselves from the Taliban and Al Quaeda. Inconvenient, potentially tragic for some of our soldiers, definitely expensive but we should have thought of that before we invaded their country. Obama is only finishing the job that was started (and mishandled) by Bush, it is right for him to do it, if he didn't what country would ever believe the promises of America again?

Another in a series of posts which explain the truth but which will be called just kissing Obama's butt by those who want simple answers to complicated problems or who just like attacking me, either way doesn't matter it is still the truth.

#202 | Posted by danni at 2013-03-20 07:04 PM | Reply | Flag:

Maybe this is the wrong thread, and I know it has been discussed a hundred other times, but reading Clownshack and RedLightRobot's posts above, I still am taken aback that so many otherwise rational people seem to truly believe that our own government either actually helped carry out the 9/11 attacks, or else truly knew about them advance and did nothing.

#193 | Posted by moder8

All I can say is there are some huge baffling coincidences surrounding that event. Airline stocks were shorted before that day. The buildings were re-insured for more than their value just months before. And bush and cheney fought any kind of investigation.

Bush flew the bin laden family out of the country the next day.

A few people benefited greatly from 9/11 and some got rich.

False flag operations are a fact.

I'm not saying I know what happened that day, but with all we do know, I'm surprised anyone can confidently say it was just a few lucky islamic radicals.

Gulf of Tonkin is a historical event.

Conspiracies are just small groups of people working in secret to fool the masses. Those exist too.

#203 | Posted by SpeakSoftly at 2013-03-20 07:04 PM | Reply | Flag:

Oh and i forgot my favorite part when they "found" the intact passport of a hijacker in the rubble.

#204 | Posted by SpeakSoftly at 2013-03-20 07:06 PM | Reply | Flag:

"I still am taken aback that so many otherwise rational people seem to truly believe that our own government either actually helped carry out the 9/11 attacks, or else truly knew about them advance and did nothing."

Well many of us were sort of taken aback when our President and Vice President first, didn't want to have any investigation about 9-11, second, wouldn't testify under oath, third, wouldn't testify alone (Bush would only testify with Cheney sitting right next to him). If you don't want conspiracy theorists to suspect terrible things don't act so completely suspiciously. Can you imagine what would happen if we had such an attack and it was Obama refusing to testify under oath? Puuuuuuhleeeeezzzzz!

#205 | Posted by danni at 2013-03-20 07:14 PM | Reply | Flag:

"Oh and i forgot my favorite part when they "found" the intact passport of a hijacker in the rubble."

Pretty "incredible."

#206 | Posted by danni at 2013-03-20 07:15 PM | Reply | Flag:

Now we elect a new President and you want us to just pull up and leave those people to fend for themselves against the Taliban. Sorry, that would be immoral...

#202 | POSTED BY DANNI

What? We're staying in Afghanistan after all? I'm confused. Are we in or out?

#207 | Posted by brilliantbart at 2013-03-20 07:15 PM | Reply | Flag:

"Oh and i forgot my favorite part when they "found" the intact passport of a hijacker in the rubble."
Pretty "incredible."

#206 | POSTED BY DANNI

Indeed. Consider they never even found a single stapler or trash basket. Everything was pulverized.

#208 | Posted by brilliantbart at 2013-03-20 07:16 PM | Reply | Flag:

Obama is only finishing the job that was started (and mishandled) by Bush, it is right for him to do it, if he didn't what country would ever believe the promises of America again?

#202 | POSTED BY DANNI

Obama is expanding the job Bush started by using drones. What responsibility do we owe all of those other countries we've invaded from their own skies?

Obama, in fact, has gone so neocon that he believes he can drone American citizens on American soil.

I'd call that an expansion on Bush. Everyone acknowledges that fact.

It's almost like both parties are playing good cop, bad cop; an artful ploy designed to eventually de-fang the Bill of Rights.

#209 | Posted by brilliantbart at 2013-03-20 07:34 PM | Reply | Flag:

"What responsibility do we owe all of those other countries we've invaded from their own skies?"

they only need to meet their responsibility to arrest terrorists and we won't be sending in drones to kill them.

#210 | Posted by danni at 2013-03-20 07:40 PM | Reply | Flag:

Whatever brought Tower 7 down, pulverized everything there too.

A airplane wing boomeranging does not explain that, does it? Even though it makes a great special effect, boomeranging airplane wings are not known to pulverize large buildings. They dent them, but don't pulverize them.

So what did bring down Tower 7?

#211 | Posted by brilliantbart at 2013-03-20 07:41 PM | Reply | Flag:

they only need to meet their responsibility to arrest terrorists and we won't be sending in drones to kill them.

#210 | POSTED BY DANNI

I hope the dude doing the arresting is wearing a flack jacket then. By the way, if you pay your taxes, Danni, there will be no drones watching you either.

Good point.

#212 | Posted by brilliantbart at 2013-03-20 07:43 PM | Reply | Flag:

So what did bring down Tower 7?

Demolition munitions personally installed by George W. Bush, of course.

He also blew up the levies during Katrina because he hates black people.

#213 | Posted by JeffJ at 2013-03-20 07:45 PM | Reply | Flag:

So what did bring down Tower 7?
Demolition munitions personally installed by George W. Bush, of course.
He also blew up the levies during Katrina because he hates black people.

#213 | POSTED BY JEFFJ

You like the wing theory then? It is the Government's final explanation. Or didn't you know that?

#214 | Posted by brilliantbart at 2013-03-20 07:46 PM | Reply | Flag:

No one can arrest Bush or Cheney. Some people are above the law. That's the new American way.

#192 | Posted by Buffalo_Bob

The New World Order?

Some are just too big to jail or fail now.

#215 | Posted by donnerboy at 2013-03-20 07:51 PM | Reply | Flag:

Now we elect a new President and you want us to just pull up and leave those people to fend for themselves against the Taliban.

#202 | POSTED BY DANNI AT 2013-03-20 07:04 PM

Lol, amazing how Obama's still a "new" president. You'll say and/or defend anything.

#216 | Posted by LIVE_OR_DIE at 2013-03-20 07:57 PM | Reply | Flag:

Can you imagine what would happen if we had such an attack and it was Obama refusing to testify under oath? Puuuuuuhleeeeezzzzz!

#205 | POSTED BY DANNI AT 2013-03-20 07:14 PM

They want him executed for Benghazi.

If Obama was president on 9/11/2001 he would have been.

If Obama was president between 2000 and 2008, when a dozen other embassies were attacked, where more than a dozen Americans died, he would have been impeached.

But as it is now, they all ignore everything that happened. They label anyone that questions 9/11 as conspiracy theorists and unpatriotic. Then they wonder how the government has been able to get so corrupt. Stop turning a blind eye to obvious data. The BushJr Administration is responsible for 9/11. open your freaking subjugated mind.

#217 | Posted by ClownShack at 2013-03-20 07:58 PM | Reply | Flag:

#214 | Posted by brilliantbart

I don't know how long you've been visiting this site so I will operate under the assumption that you haven't been here very long based upon your user profile.

Needless to say the 9-11 conspiracy theories have been debated ad nauseum on this site over the years. Every time the conspiracy theorists got their heads handed to them when someone had the patience and energy to get down to the nitty-gritty.

The 'truther theory' has so many holes and is based on SO many implausible assumptions....well, it is deserving of the sarcasm I showed in my post above.

#218 | Posted by JeffJ at 2013-03-20 08:00 PM | Reply | Flag:

The use of drones in Afghanistan or Yemen, to take out terrorists is a conpletely different thing than law enforcement using drones to spy on us domestically. Conflating those two things is a strategy by those who want to have the freedom use drones here to watch everying you and I do all the time. Drones were developed as a weapon in the war on terror, we always have had weapons systems for use in wars that we didn't use on our own people.

#219 | Posted by danni at 2013-03-20 08:02 PM | Reply | Flag:

"The 'truther theory' has so many holes and is based on SO many implausible assumptions."

Unfortunately, the same can be said of the 9-11 Report.

#220 | Posted by danni at 2013-03-20 08:03 PM | Reply | Flag:

"They want him executed for Benghazi."

Exactly.

#221 | Posted by danni at 2013-03-20 08:04 PM | Reply | Flag:

#217

Whichever side of that debate you are on I think we call agree that Moder8 et al need to open their minds a little. I speak only in the interest of fostering productive discussion here.

#222 | Posted by LIVE_OR_DIE at 2013-03-20 08:05 PM | Reply | Flag:

Fighting against 9/11 truthers is like being in the special olympics; no matter how well you do, you're still dealing with the ret....nevermind.

#223 | Posted by kanrei at 2013-03-20 08:08 PM | Reply | Flag:

A wing section from Flight 11 went spinning wildly upon impact into Tower 1, and sheared down Tower 7 like a scythe.
#200 | POSTED BY BRILLIANTBART AT 2013-03-20 07:01 PM | FLAG:

The wing even boomeranged around Towers 5 and 6; and struck Tower 7 from the North.
Incredible but true.
#201 | POSTED BY BRILLIANTBART

That wing must have come from the same universe as the magic bullet that killed JFK.

Nothing hit Tower 7. It fell on its own. It was completely intact prior to falling.

The twin towers shouldn't have so neatly fallen in on themselves and many engineers have stated they shouldn't have fallen at all.

The plane that hit the pentagon turned into dust. miraculously. and the impact it made didn't support the notion that it was a plane.

the list goes on and on and on and on.

9/11 was staged by the BushJr Administration for the profit of a few at the expense of millions.

of course, pretending some box-cutter wielding muslims pulled it all off can be easier on the fragile psyche of most Subjugated Americans.

Watch your American Idol type shows and don't worry, there are other people running the world for you.

#224 | Posted by ClownShack at 2013-03-20 08:08 PM | Reply | Flag:

The use of drones in Afghanistan or Yemen, to take out terrorists is a conpletely different thing than law enforcement using drones to spy on us domestically.

#219 | POSTED BY DANNI AT 2013-03-20 08:02 PM

Until President Awesome Sauce comes out for it. Then everyone questioning it will want to send criminals some roses.

#225 | Posted by LIVE_OR_DIE at 2013-03-20 08:08 PM | Reply | Flag:

Wow has this thread really moved since I was last here.

#226 | Posted by kanrei at 2013-03-20 08:09 PM | Reply | Flag:

Every time the conspiracy theorists got their heads handed to them when someone had the patience and energy to get down to the nitty-gritty.

#218 | Posted by JeffJ at 2013-03-20 08:00 PM | Reply | Flag:

Such instances of truthers having "their heads handed to them" is only in your imagination. Thousands of engineers and architects dispute the "pancake" theory of collapse. The 911 commission itself said the government withheld information or outright lied to them. Bush fought against ANY investigation into 911, and wouldn't testify under oath. Bush said he saw the first plane hit the Tower. The truth has not come out. It will never come out unless Bush and Cheney get lie detector tests. Would you support lie detector tests for Bush and Cheney, or are you happy with the facts as you've created them?

#227 | Posted by Buffalo_Bob at 2013-03-20 08:10 PM | Reply | Flag:

"Until President Awesome Sauce comes out for it. Then everyone questioning it will want to send criminals some roses."

Ok, suggest an alternative. Troops on the ground? You go first. Do you think the use of drones is Obama's idea or the General's idea? Should he just ignore their advice? Admit it, he's wrong now matter what he does.

#228 | Posted by danni at 2013-03-20 08:11 PM | Reply | Flag:

I want everyone to ask themselves this question in the drone debate:

I want you to think of the World Leader you feel is the most evil corrupt uncaring piece of dung ever to live and ask yourself if you trust them with that power.

Precedent in global affairs is precedent globally. Dubya introduced the concept of preemption into conflict and now any nation can do it. Obama has broken sovereign airspace in search of people he calls a threat to his nation. Now any nation can do it. Some guy in Los Angeles who is running a website that China says inspires acts of terrorism against them can now be killed by a Chinese drone attack.

#229 | Posted by kanrei at 2013-03-20 08:12 PM | Reply | Flag:

" It will never come out unless Bush and Cheney get lie detector tests. "

Pathological liars fool lie detector tests every day.

#230 | Posted by danni at 2013-03-20 08:13 PM | Reply | Flag:

Whichever side of that debate you are on I think we call agree that Moder8 et al need to open their minds a little. I speak only in the interest of fostering productive discussion here.
#222 | POSTED BY LIVE_OR_DIE AT 2013-03-20 08:05 PM |

I'm on the side of the debate that say F'em all and let the pieces land where they may.

We agree on this. Discussion cannot occur when the person you are discussing a topic with comes in with the state of mind that they already know everything.

I am very willing to hear any explanation Moder8 et al have for the events that occurred on 9/11.

But, as it is, their whole point of view is, the media told them what to believe and they are satisfied.

#231 | Posted by ClownShack at 2013-03-20 08:13 PM | Reply | Flag:

Do you think the use of drones is Obama's idea or the General's idea?

His.

US President Barack Obama has personally overseen a top-secret process for determining which al Qaeda suspects should be placed on a "kill list", the New York Times reported on Tuesday.

The Times, citing dozens of top officials and former advisers, said the administration had developed what it termed the "kill list" as part of a stepped-up drone war against al Qaeda and its affiliates in Pakistan and Yemen. "He is determined that he will make these decisions about how far and wide these operations will go," it quoted US National Security Adviser Thomas Donilon as saying. "His view is that he's responsible for the position of the United States in the world... He's determined to keep the tether pretty short."

www.dailytimes.com.pk

#232 | Posted by kanrei at 2013-03-20 08:14 PM | Reply | Flag:

I want you to think of the World Leader you feel is the most evil corrupt uncaring piece of dung ever to live

Hmmmm.....Reagan or W.....too close to call....I guess I'll flip a coin.

Sincerely,

Danni

#233 | Posted by JeffJ at 2013-03-20 08:15 PM | Reply | Flag:

Wow has this thread really moved since I was last here.
#226 | POSTED BY KANREI

Well, you are 226+ posts in.

the discussion has evolved. Yet, we are still within the realm of the original topic.

#234 | Posted by ClownShack at 2013-03-20 08:16 PM | Reply | Flag:

More on the drone process. Link in post 232:

The Times described the top-secret process, which begins with some 100 counter-terrorism officials sifting through biographies and "nominating" suspects in Yemen and Somalia to be added to the kill list during a secure videoconference run by the Pentagon. The CIA carries out a separate process for suspects in Pakistan, it said.

The nominations then go to Obama, who signs off on every strike in Yemen and Somalia and also on especially complex and risky strikes in Pakistan – about a third of the total, the Times said. Obama personally approves the killing of top suspects, such as Qaeda preacher Anwar al Awlaqi – a US citizen – who was killed by a US drone strike in Yemen last year.

The Times quoted former White House chief of staff William Daley as saying that Obama called the decision to strike Awlaqi "an easy one", but Daley said some officials had expressed some qualms about the kill list.

#235 | Posted by kanrei at 2013-03-20 08:16 PM | Reply | Flag:

I'd feel far more comfortable with your 219 post Danni if the police weren't constantly getting further militarized.

What you are saying certainly used to be true. Now, when you can see SWAT pull up to something as innocuous as a simple drug dealer's home in armored vehicles with automatic weapons and different types of grenades, you start to wonder.

Kudos on the post about Afghanistan, by the way. I tend to attack from the left on these, but agree with that. After Bush, we have a responsibilty nationally to clean up the mess, I'm afraid, and also, no doubt about how the right would have reacted to all Bush's failures were they attributable to Obama.

As to the truther debate? Hard to say whether the government was behind it. One would hope not. But no one can deny how quick they were to seize power in the face of a catastrophe, shock doctrine style.

#236 | Posted by zeropointnrg at 2013-03-20 08:16 PM | Reply | Flag:

"Tomas Young: I write this letter on the 10th anniversary of the Iraq War on behalf of my fellow Iraq War veterans. ... I write this letter, my last letter, to you, Mr. Bush and Mr. Cheney."

This letter is just from one vet who is bitter and has a bone to pick, maybe rightfully so. There are always letters like this and I wager I can find just as many against any other president. I especially remember the letters against LBJ regarding the Vietnam War, and as a vet, I kinda have a har...uhh, erection against LBJ and McNamara to this day. Books have been written too, one of the best is "Chicken Hawk" by Robert Mason, another vet, helo pilot, with no legs. He especially hated Johnson's buddy, Westmoreland, as well.
Bush was no better and no worse that any of the others and what I've seen indicates to me he had/has as much or more compassion for the troops and vets as any of the others. It's easy to find hateful letters for Carter, Clinton, and Obama as well as for Bush. Give it a rest, Bush isn't running for anything.

#237 | Posted by jestgettinalong at 2013-03-20 08:17 PM | Reply | Flag:

Nothing hit Tower 7. It fell on its own. It was completely intact prior to falling.

#224 | POSTED BY CLOWNSHACK

Where did you get that from? How did Tower fall then?

The government scientists claim it was a boomeranging wing section and other jetsam that caused Tower 7 to fall down.

"... as the North Tower collapsed on September 11, 2001, heavy debris hit 7 World Trade Center, damaging the south face of the building and starting fires that continued to burn throughout the afternoon..."

en.wikipedia.org

#238 | Posted by brilliantbart at 2013-03-20 08:18 PM | Reply | Flag:

"Ok, suggest an alternative."

Get the hell out of the Mideast. How many times does it need to be said?

#239 | Posted by nullifidian at 2013-03-20 08:18 PM | Reply | Flag:

Get the hell out of the Mideast. How many times does it need to be said?

#239 | POSTED BY NULLIFIDIAN

Now wait just a minute. The Middle East has the best marinated olives, dates, and cashew nuts.

Let's not throw the baby out with the bath water.

#240 | Posted by brilliantbart at 2013-03-20 08:21 PM | Reply | Flag:

The concept of a war on terror is the concept of unending war. So long as you have one group of people who are weak and another who are strong, you will have terrorism. It is a tool. It is a last resort for the downtrodden. The Founding Fathers were terrorists to the British point of view. Our actions in acquiring Texas was also terrorism to the Mexican point of view.

The Left understood this once. I know they did because I learned the above here from them.

#241 | Posted by kanrei at 2013-03-20 08:22 PM | Reply | Flag:

The Middle East has the best marinated olives, dates, and cashew nuts.

Talk to Genco Olive Oil lmports. Make them an offer they can't refuse.

#242 | Posted by kanrei at 2013-03-20 08:23 PM | Reply | Flag:

But no one can deny how quick they were to seize power in the face of a catastrophe, shock doctrine style.

#236 | Posted by zeropointnrg

THAT is definitely true. The Patriot Act was passed with broad bi-partisan support. "Don't let a good crisis go to waste." is not a tactic that was invented by Team Obama.

To make the whole thing laughable, we have born-again civil-libertarians like Hannity applauding Rand Paul's filibuster, but was clamoring to make the Patriot Act permanent just a few years ago.

#243 | Posted by JeffJ at 2013-03-20 08:25 PM | Reply | Flag:

The Patriot Act was passed with broad bi-partisan support.

Goebbels would have been proud of the post 9-11 period. It was unpatriotic to ask questions. The official story was the ONLY story and anything else loved terrorists. The Patriot Act was rushed (meaning written WELL before 9-11-01) under the implied threat of the patriotism of anyone who voted against it or even read it. Just masterful. Hollywood could not have scripted it better.

They didn't know what was going to happen or when, but they knew something was coming and were very ready for it. Read PNAC.

#244 | Posted by kanrei at 2013-03-20 08:27 PM | Reply | Flag:

Ok, suggest an alternative. Troops on the ground? You go first. Do you think the use of drones is Obama's idea or the General's idea? Should he just ignore their advice? Admit it, he's wrong now matter what he does.

#228 | POSTED BY DANNI AT 2013-03-20 08:11 PM

Lol, now it's the generals calling the shots. The New President just innocently sits back and observes from afar. Rofl

Btw, it's hilarious that someone who thinks a half hearted military occupation will magically cure a third world country of centuries of conflict, poverty, and theocracy is whining about "simple" answers to complex problems.

Thanks for the laughs.

#245 | Posted by LIVE_OR_DIE at 2013-03-20 08:27 PM | Reply | Flag:

Why am I here at night? Good bye. Til the morrow =D

#246 | Posted by kanrei at 2013-03-20 08:29 PM | Reply | Flag:

Every time the conspiracy theorists got their heads handed to them when someone had the patience and energy to get down to the nitty-gritty.
The 'truther theory' has so many holes and is based on SO many implausible assumptions....well, it is deserving of the sarcasm I showed in my post above.

#218 | POSTED BY JEFFJ AT 2013-03-20 08:00 PM

Lets begin discussion shall we? I'm ready for you to "hand me my head".

Lets begin with, how did a passenger plane hitting a tower cause it to perfectly fall down in a demolition manner? how did the steel supports melt all the way down to the bottom? There are pictures of the steel at the bottom of the building burning red hot. why are there so many testimonies to hearing explosions at the base of the tower? Why did the engineer that designed the Twin Towers say there was no way the building should have fallen at all let alone in on themselves? What is up with Tower 7? What about how the buildings were re-insured for more than their value just months before? Why was the gold that was stored under the twin towers moved a couple days before the attack? Why was Cheney running military exercises that morning? What's your explanation for my #179 post?

Just because you bought into what the media was selling you after 9/11 doesn't mean you actually learned anything about what happened on 9/11.

#247 | Posted by ClownShack at 2013-03-20 08:29 PM | Reply | Flag:

#236

So what do we owe them, another decade of dead kids shot in the back by their courageous soldiers?

That should about do it.

#248 | Posted by LIVE_OR_DIE at 2013-03-20 08:30 PM | Reply | Flag:

Clown,

I don't have the time or patience to re-litigate this conspiracy.

I'll leave it with 2 words:

Occom's Razor.

Ponder what those 2 words mean in the context of the 'truther theory' vs 'the official explanation'.

#249 | Posted by JeffJ at 2013-03-20 08:32 PM | Reply | Flag:

Read PNAC.

#244 | Posted by kanrei

I have. It reads as a near-perfect blueprint for the Iraq War.

#250 | Posted by JeffJ at 2013-03-20 08:34 PM | Reply | Flag:

Lets begin discussion shall we? I'm ready for you to "hand me my head".

.
Wait, let me get a bowl of popcorn : )

.

#251 | Posted by CalifChris at 2013-03-20 08:36 PM | Reply | Flag:

"... as the North Tower collapsed on September 11, 2001, heavy debris hit 7 World Trade Center, damaging the south face of the building and starting fires that continued to burn throughout the afternoon..."
en.wikipedia.org

#238 | POSTED BY BRILLIANTBART AT 2013-03-20 08:18 PM

So, you're stating that debris fell on Tower 7, some sort of fire broke out (through out the afternoon) and the building fell in on itself in a demolition manner, fell completely flat to the ground, not even one wall or part of a wall remained standing. from top to bottom just like the twin towers did.

The south face was damaged, why did the north face fall? or the east or west? I've seen buildings after fires that still had partial walls remaining erect. I've even seen footage of war torn areas which were bombed and subjected to all types of damage that had buildings which weren't so neatly demolished.

What's the next proposed theory as to why Building 7 fell?

#252 | Posted by ClownShack at 2013-03-20 08:38 PM | Reply | Flag:

No, Live or Die, we owe them a peaceful transition.

Note, I didn't say we're doing it right.

It's the rock and a hard place issue. We've droned them 2 weeks back to the stone age. Sure, it's only 2 weeks, but if we leave now, we have a nation whose entire next generation will remember us as nothing but an occupying force that ransacked their nation, left it in shambles, and then withdrew. And they will hate us. They will strike back, if given the chance.

We do owe them a stable government and enough infrastucture to get by and finish the repairs. We owe it to ourselves, as an investment.

We don't owe them more drone attacks against things strongly resembling innocent teenagers sitting in coffee shops.

It's arguable, but that's where I am on the issue. Only because we already set foot in and screwed up the place. Beyond that, we need to learn our lesson and stay the heck out of a middle east that will never see us as anything but infidels occupying their lands.

#253 | Posted by zeropointnrg at 2013-03-20 08:42 PM | Reply | Flag:

Clown,
I don't have the time or patience to re-litigate this conspiracy.
I'll leave it with 2 words:
Occom's Razor.
Ponder what those 2 words mean in the context of the 'truther theory' vs 'the official explanation'.
#249 | POSTED BY JEFFJ AT 2013-03-20 08:32 PM |

Brilliant. There you have it folks, my head was just handed to me.

oh wait, it wasn't.

Tell me Jeff, Why were BushJr and Cheney so desperate to get the scene of the crime cleaned up before any investigation could be held?

If I had just upped my wife's life insurance (the twin towers were reinsured for more than their actual value) and she died a month later... you think the insurance company would want to investigate whether I killed her or had a part in her death? If only I could erase the scene of the murder before anyone got a chance to investigate...

Also, when the roof of a building gets damaged, how long before the walls fall in on themselves?

If I spray fuel on Steel and light it on fire, how long do I have to wait before the steel melts?

#254 | Posted by ClownShack at 2013-03-20 08:47 PM | Reply | Flag:

we have a nation whose entire next generation will remember us as nothing but an occupying force that ransacked their nation, left it in shambles, and then withdrew. And they will hate us. They will strike back, if given the chance.

I don't know about that. We have devoted considerable resources toward doing the very things you say we should do. It hasn't worked. We have treated them WAY better than Soviet-Russia did back in the '80's yet we don't hear them derided as 'The Great Satan'.

Afghanistan was a just war. Our government way above and beyond to try and create a modern, stable Democratic society in the wake of our invasion. It hasn't worked and will probably never work. That country is probably too tribal for and Islamic for it to work.

It is time to pack our bags. We've done all we could and MORE loss of blood and treasure at this point is beyond stupid.

#255 | Posted by JeffJ at 2013-03-20 08:52 PM | Reply | Flag:

#254 | Posted by ClownShack

It's not that you aren't asking fair questions or raising decent points. It's simply that it has been debated ad nauseum over the years on this site (just like the Iraq/WMD thing) and you are offering nothing new.

I don't have the time or patience to go back through this again.

#256 | Posted by JeffJ at 2013-03-20 08:55 PM | Reply | Flag:

We do owe them a stable government and enough infrastucture to get by and finish the repairs. We owe it to ourselves, as an investment.

#253 | POSTED BY ZEROPOINTNRG AT 2013-03-20 08:42 PM

Shouldn't take too much longer or too many more lives.

#257 | Posted by LIVE_OR_DIE at 2013-03-20 09:05 PM | Reply | Flag:

Admitting a mistake?

How long did it take McNamara?

#258 | Posted by TheTom at 2013-03-20 09:05 PM | Reply | Flag:

I don't have the time or patience to go back through this again.
#256 | POSTED BY JEFFJ AT 2013-03-20 08:55 PM | REPLY

Dude, I don't have the patience to go over this with you either, but you're the one claiming expertise on the subject matter.

So, you're stating, that someone already presented the fact to you that theres no possible way the twin towers could have fallen the way they did and Building 7 shouldn't have fallen at all, and you already disproved them. You figured out how the steel supports for the building melted, you figured out how the building neatly fell in on itself. You've already discussed the physics of it with engineers and explained to them how they are wrong.

If so, I'd love to hear it because it sounds like you are privy to some stellar information.

#259 | Posted by ClownShack at 2013-03-20 09:06 PM | Reply | Flag:

I'll leave it with 2 words:
Occom's Razor.
Ponder what those 2 words mean in the context of the 'truther theory' vs 'the official explanation'.
#249 | POSTED BY JEFFJ AT 2013-03-20 08:32 PM |

Occom's razor says the most likely explanation is probably right.
But the official 9/11 story requires an incredible amount of coincidences to all occur at the right time for it to be true.
The re-insuring of the towers.
The moving of the gold.
The shorting of airline stocks.
The military exercises under cheneys control that morning
Building 7 collapsing into its own footprint without being significantly hit.
Coincidence. coincidence. coincidence.

The conspiracy theory only requires you to believe that powerful people do terrible things to acquire more power.

Which one would Occom's Razor recommend we believe?

#260 | Posted by SpeakSoftly at 2013-03-20 09:07 PM | Reply | Flag:

Dude, I don't have the patience to go over this with you either, but you're the one claiming expertise on the subject matter.

I make no such claim.

When it was debated in the past on this site I was only a spectator. However, in the course of following the debate/spectacle it was clear the the 'truthers' got their heads handed to them.

It's one thing to question and point out holes in the 'official explanations'. It's quite another to launch a theory that the government was actually behind it.

If you are doing the former, fine. I already acknowledged you raised some decent points and questions regarding the official story. If you are doing the latter be prepared to have your ass handed to you by someone with the time, patience and inclination to decimate the 'truther theory'.

#261 | Posted by JeffJ at 2013-03-20 09:10 PM | Reply | Flag:

ANd let's not forget the anthrax attacks that continued until the patriot act was signed and then was blamed on a loner who immediately killed himself.

#262 | Posted by SpeakSoftly at 2013-03-20 09:11 PM | Reply | Flag:

Re #260 - Damn it, you have point, just like this man's letter.

#263 | Posted by danv at 2013-03-20 09:12 PM | Reply | Flag:

#262

Oh yea, I forgot all about the anthrax scare.

Lasted just long enough for American's to sign away their remaining freedoms.

#264 | Posted by ClownShack at 2013-03-20 09:14 PM | Reply | Flag:

"Btw, it's hilarious that someone who thinks a half hearted military occupation will magically cure a third world country of centuries of conflict, poverty, and theocracy is whining about "simple" answers to complex problems."

NO one ever claimed that, but stopping, would be, 9-11 style terrorists, before they can launch their plans is smart, it's what we should be doing, it's what you would blame them for not doing when and if an attack ever succeeds, if they weren't doing it. But hey, it's fun to blame Obama now for doing things which you would blame him for not doing if an attack ever happened. You'd be saying, "the President had a duty to not listen to people like me." You're actually quite laughable.

#265 | Posted by danni at 2013-03-20 09:15 PM | Reply | Flag:

Your 255 may be right, JeffJ, but it leaves a bitter taste in my mouth.

I'm not talking about fighting a war over there. Anyone who thinks we can win a war on terror in an area where every kill probably has their whole family calling for an eye for an eye on us is deluded, and that's the nice word for it.

It's the civilian lives we've shattered, the areas that probably once had a semblance of civilization and law, that now no longer even have the semblance. And that is on our heads, as a nation. Because we should have done nothing more than a quick surgical strike against Bin Laden in the first place, before Bush lost him and decided he "wasn't concerned" about him. Oh, and possibly his oil buddies in Saudi Arabia, you know, the actual place most of the terrorists came from.

So yes, just pulling out leaving them in a lurch does leave a bitter taste in my mouth. Even if we may end up with no other reasonable option.

#266 | Posted by zeropointnrg at 2013-03-20 09:15 PM | Reply | Flag:

#261 | POSTED BY JEFFJ AT 2013-03-20 09:10 PM

I wager everyone is tired of this topic, it produces no results either way.

and as for former or latter, I'd say both.

Poking holes in the official story and helping anyone with an open mind to see the government's involvement in 9/11.

#267 | Posted by ClownShack at 2013-03-20 09:18 PM | Reply | Flag:

What's the next proposed theory as to why Building 7 fell?

#252 | POSTED BY CLOWNSHACK

I like my airplane wing boomerang theory. It looks cooler.

Imagine it - whop whop whop whop woop wuup wuup wuup Boom!

#268 | Posted by brilliantbart at 2013-03-20 09:20 PM | Reply | Flag:

I have no explanation for Tower 7 falling. If buildings really fell that easily, we wouldn't even build them.

#269 | Posted by brilliantbart at 2013-03-20 09:23 PM | Reply | Flag:

Zero,

It's the civilian lives we've shattered, the areas that probably once had a semblance of civilization and law, that now no longer even have the semblance.

It's a mixed bag. There are plenty who view the new government, corrupt as it is, as way better than the Taliban. Yes, plenty are worse off now and can honestly attribute it to our actions. But the same holds true in the opposite sense. (Moving the goalposts a bit) Do you think the Kurds are happy we invaded Iraq?

My point being, yes some are worse off, but some are also better off as a result of this country's actions in the Middle East.

#270 | Posted by JeffJ at 2013-03-20 09:23 PM | Reply | Flag:

I have no explanation for Tower 7 falling. If buildings really fell that easily, we wouldn't even build them.
#269 | POSTED BY BRILLIANTBART AT 2013-03-20 09:23 PM | REPLY |

I hear tell it was due to a magical boomerang wing the went flying off the plane that hit the pentagon.

People from DC to NYC all commented they heard a: whop whop whop whop woop wuup wuup wuup Boom!

#271 | Posted by ClownShack at 2013-03-20 09:32 PM | Reply | Flag:

#272 | Posted by ClownShack at 2013-03-20 09:32 PM | Reply | Flag:

sweet

italics are off.

#273 | Posted by ClownShack at 2013-03-20 09:32 PM | Reply | Flag:

My point being, yes some are worse off, but some are also better off as a result of this country's actions in the Middle East.

#270 | Posted by JeffJ

And some are dead. Or have dead children. Which kind of outweighs the slight improvements in the lives of a few, does it not?

#274 | Posted by SpeakSoftly at 2013-03-20 09:33 PM | Reply | Flag:

I didn't necessarily agree with the war at the time, but one thing for sure we were going to have to deal with saddam sooner or later

#275 | Posted by Maverick at 2013-03-20 09:34 PM | Reply | Flag:

And some are dead. Or have dead children. Which kind of outweighs the slight improvements in the lives of a few, does it not?

#274 | Posted by SpeakSoftly

In the short-term, probably yes - to your point.

Long-term? It's difficult to guage. The Taliban was brutal (as was Sadddam). How many people have been spared death and/or extreme torture/rape with these bastards removed from power?

#276 | Posted by JeffJ at 2013-03-20 09:40 PM | Reply | Flag:

Long-term? It's difficult to guage. The Taliban was brutal (as was Sadddam). How many people have been spared death and/or extreme torture/rape with these bastards removed from power?

#276 | POSTED BY JEFFJ

Indeed. Who'd be screaming if the Taliban was brought into world consciousness after 911, and nothing happened?

Who'd be screaming the loudest over stone-ings, torture, and rape of illiterate boys and girls?

Now. At least we can say we tried. And the would-be be screamers, are shut up.

#277 | Posted by brilliantbart at 2013-03-20 09:48 PM | Reply | Flag:

It's difficult to guage. The Taliban was brutal (as was Sadddam). How many people have been spared death and/or extreme torture/rape with these bastards removed from power?
#276 | POSTED BY JEFFJ AT 2013-03-20 09:40 PM |

Not counting the ones that were killed, tortured, and raped in the process?

#278 | Posted by ClownShack at 2013-03-20 09:51 PM | Reply | Flag:

My point being, yes some are worse off, but some are also better off as a result of this country's actions in the Middle East.

#270 | Posted by JeffJ

Because the economy still runs on oil; I'd reluctantly have to conclude we are still better off.

#279 | Posted by brilliantbart at 2013-03-20 09:52 PM | Reply | Flag:

Mr. Brilliant,

Your point is unclear in #277. Please expound.

Mr. Clown,

Ditto.

Please expound.

#280 | Posted by JeffJ at 2013-03-20 09:53 PM | Reply | Flag:

#4 | Posted by paneocon at

11 | Posted by paneocon a

I really thought you were better then this paneocon

"Maybe, if you spent some time reading PNAC, you would see what the actual goals of our invading Iraq were. It was a victory. We did exactly what we set out to do."

#160 | Posted by kanrei at

PNAC Goal if I remember right for war in Iraq was to choke off the oil supply going to China.
the only people who won from the Iraq war was Iran.

Sully your posts some hard core truths here and I thank you for them

#281 | Posted by PunchyPossum at 2013-03-20 09:57 PM | Reply | Flag:

This was a Congressional Joint Resolution 114 and UN Security Council Resolution 1441 and Resolution 678. There is more to this than one mans decision

Sorry Pan. Study the history.. Bush promised Congress he would go to the UN and the UN resolutions required approval of the Security Council before attacking.

He attacked when he knew he wouldn't get the approval.

"The United Nations Secretary-General Kofi Annan has told the BBC the US-led invasion of Iraq was an illegal act that contravened the UN charter.

He said the decision to take action in Iraq should have been made by the Security Council, not unilaterally.

He said he believed there should have been a second UN resolution following Iraq's failure to comply over weapons inspections.

And it should have been up to the Security Council to approve or determine the consequences, he added.

When pressed on whether he viewed the invasion of Iraq as illegal, he said: "Yes, if you wish. I have indicated it was not in conformity with the UN charter from our point of view, from the charter point of view, it was illegal."

The Congressional Act:
"AUTHORIZATION- The President is authorized to use the Armed Forces of the United States as he determines to be necessary and appropriate in order to--

(1) defend the national security of the United States against the continuing threat posed by Iraq; and

(2) enforce all relevant United Nations Security Council resolutions regarding Iraq.

Pan- there was no "threat" and no support in the UN for a war in March 2003
(b) PRESIDENTIAL DETERMINATION- In connection with the exercise of the authority granted in subsection (a) to use force the President shall, prior to such exercise or as soon thereafter as may be feasible, but no later than 48 hours after exercising such authority, make available to the Speaker of the House of Representatives and the President pro tempore of the Senate his determination that--

(1) reliance by the United States on further diplomatic or other peaceful means alone either (A) will not adequately protect the national security of the United States against the continuing threat posed by Iraq or (B) is not likely to lead to enforcement of all relevant United Nations Security Council resolutions regarding Iraq; and

(2) acting pursuant to this joint resolution is consistent with the United States and other countries continuing to take the necessary actions against international terrorist and terrorist organizations, including those nations, organizations, or persons who planned, authorized, committed or aided the terrorist attacks that occurred on September 11,

Everything that followed was based on a Presidential Determination. How many Presidents were there in the WH in 2003?

One. And his name was George Walker Bush.

Deal with it.

#282 | Posted by northguy3 at 2013-03-20 10:01 PM | Reply | Flag:

Mr. Clown,
Please expound.
#280 | POSTED BY JEFFJ AT 2013-03-20 09:53 PM

We killed more people in the past decade than the dictators we were supposedly liberating the populous from would of.

#283 | Posted by ClownShack at 2013-03-20 10:06 PM | Reply | Flag:

the only people who won from the Iraq war was Iran.

Didn't China buy up a lot of land (natural resources) in Afghanistan and a lot of oil fields in Iraq??

#284 | Posted by ClownShack at 2013-03-20 10:08 PM | Reply | Flag:

I didn't necessarily agree with the war at the time, but one thing for sure we were going to have to deal with saddam sooner or later

#275 | Posted by Maverick

That's NOT for sure. Chavez died on his own. Saddam couldve done the same. Or been overthrown in the arab spring.

#285 | Posted by SpeakSoftly at 2013-03-20 10:09 PM | Reply | Flag:

"My point being, yes some are worse off, but some are also better off as a result of this country's actions in the Middle East."

Those who are better off will be very much worse off starting with the day we leave unless we have helped stand up a real miitary and a real police force. I agree, it's unlikely that these organizations will be strong enough, but don't we have some obligation to try and help them become the organizations they need to be. The value of the American promise is on the line here. Too many Americans want it to be worthless. Think about that.

#286 | Posted by danni at 2013-03-20 10:12 PM | Reply | Flag:

not to mention Saddam learned his lesson in the 90s when he invaded Kuwait.

Saddm had plans of changing oil currency from dollars to another form of currency, and thus we have the War.

#287 | Posted by ClownShack at 2013-03-20 10:13 PM | Reply | Flag:

will I scroll backwards to read the hundreds or more letters talking about the good things that happened there from men and women who risked their lives there?

or will that be on a different thread coming later?

( YEAH I'm not buying it either )

#288 | Posted by afkabl2 at 2013-03-20 10:20 PM | Reply | Flag:

My point being, yes some are worse off, but some are also better off as a result of this country's actions in the Middle East.

For the record, germans in Czechoslovakia were better off after Munich, even if the rest of the folk weren't. same with the Rhineland takeover.

Some win and some lose is really not a good way to decide who you are going to bomb. Especially when you don't have a horse in the race.

Jeff- the Iranian ayatollahs are certainly better off. I'm not sure that's a good outcome, but you wanted to see who won. Karsick and his drug dealing brother are better off, as is the Northern alliance (where did they go?) who are hardly any more civilized than the taliban. Given the way al queda has spread to other countries while the great liberation wars went on sort of shows the error of everybody's ways. And whether or not he was still a potent force in al queda, letting bin laden skate for a decade only made the al queda brand more powerful.

Iraq was a total mistake, possibly tied with Viet nam as the worse foreign policy mistakes in American history. Going after al queda was necessary, spending more than a decade choosing sides in a intratribal war instead of focusing on al queda isn't. And certainly, letting saudialquedia off the hook for 9-11, funding al queda and the taliban and Iraqi sunnis was perhaps the biggest policy mistake of all. The body counts in Spain, Iraq and afghanistan following 9-11 certainly show that.

#289 | Posted by northguy3 at 2013-03-20 10:20 PM | Reply | Flag:

will I scroll backwards to read the hundreds or more letters talking about the good things that happened there from men and women who risked their lives there?
#288 | POSTED BY AFKABL2 AT 2013-03-20 10:20 PM

if you can find any, feel free to link to them.

#290 | Posted by ClownShack at 2013-03-20 10:25 PM | Reply | Flag:

I didn't necessarily agree with the war at the time, but one thing for sure we were going to have to deal with saddam sooner or later

#275 | Posted by Maverick

Nonsense. As reality has shown, Saddam's delusions were only a threat to himself. Heck, if Saddam was the real threat, for the 40 billion the Bushies promised the war would cost, they could have bought any number of coups in Iraq. When you look at the fantasy that was the Coalition provisional Authority mandate, what Bush was after is clear. A puppet government selling off "privatizing" the oil fields in a series of invitation-only auctions.

#291 | Posted by northguy3 at 2013-03-20 10:25 PM | Reply | Flag:

Who'd be screaming if the Taliban was brought into world consciousness

Who'd be screaming the loudest over stone-ings, torture, and rape of illiterate boys and girls?

Condi Rice and Chevron were certainly willing to do business with them. Then again, she was sweet on Moo Moo as well. And Rummy really (hearted) Saddam.

#292 | Posted by northguy3 at 2013-03-20 10:28 PM | Reply | Flag:

Oliver,

Some win and some lose is really not a good way to decide who you are going to bomb. Especially when you don't have a horse in the race.

I agree 100% and I knew that someone would make this argument in response to my post.

#289 | Posted by northguy3

You raise a ton of good points in this post.
Perhaps humor isn't your best medium?

I attribute the clarity of your post to an extended sugar/calorie paczki-buzz that carries one through Lent in Ham-Town. :-)

#293 | Posted by jeffj at 2013-03-20 10:37 PM | Reply | Flag:

NO one ever claimed that

But hey, it's fun to blame Obama now for doing things which you would blame him for not doing if an attack ever happened. You'd be saying, "the President had a duty to not listen to people like me." You're actually quite laughable.

#265 | POSTED BY DANNI AT 2013-03-20 09:15 PM

You claimed it when you defend our occupation in the name of "cleaning up the mess" in Afghanistan.

But President Awesome's feelings are more important than more dead troops, right?

#294 | Posted by LIVE_OR_DIE at 2013-03-20 10:43 PM | Reply | Flag:

LoD,

You going to be around for a few?

#295 | Posted by JeffJ at 2013-03-20 10:57 PM | Reply | Flag:

Sure. Whats up

#296 | Posted by LIVE_OR_DIE at 2013-03-20 11:10 PM | Reply | Flag:

#296 | Posted by LIVE_OR_DIE

Just wanted to share a video taken on what USA Today Travel dubbed as the 2nd best lake in the country (Tahoe being the best).

I laud the video only because it has decent footage of the lake. The dude narrating has ZERO personality.

Anyhow, a brief watch of the video clearly shows some of what makes Lake Charlevoix such an awewsome lake.

www.youtube.com

#297 | Posted by JeffJ at 2013-03-20 11:18 PM | Reply | Flag:

Lake Tahoe is awesome!

#298 | Posted by ClownShack at 2013-03-20 11:22 PM | Reply | Flag:

To butt in to your little a and b convo before I c myself out, we have a lot of awesome lakes in Michigan. Love the great lakes though, because it's really the only inland region worth diving. Amazing number of shockingly well-preserved wrecks.

We also have Detroit, but nothing well-preserved about that wreck.

#299 | Posted by zeropointnrg at 2013-03-20 11:24 PM | Reply | Flag:

#297 | Posted by JeffJ at 2013-03-20 11:18 PM
I wish I was on that lake with a full cooler right now.

I have to ask, that's not you narrating is it? (j/k)

#300 | Posted by LIVE_OR_DIE at 2013-03-20 11:28 PM | Reply | Flag:

Zero,

Northern Michigan is the best-kept secret when it comes to natural beauty.

Travel to the following:

Charlevoix
Boyne City
Petosky
Bay Harbor
Harbor Springs
Traverse City
Glen Arbor
Etc

It is utterly amazing how much big-time wealth (Fortune 100 CEOs, etc) own space in the above areas.

#301 | Posted by JeffJ at 2013-03-20 11:29 PM | Reply | Flag:

LoD,

Definitely NOT me narrating.

I have spent hundreds of hours on that gem of a lake. The video I linked doesn't do it full justice, but it's pretty good.

Lots of coolers of beers have I consumed (trying to sound a bit like Yoda) on that lake. They were all wonderful!

One of the many cool things about this lake is that it accesses Lake Michigan. At the far West end of the lake (17,260 acres with a depth of 122 feet!) a small intermediary known as Round Lake attaches Charlevoix with Lake Michigan. During peak travel a little outfit known as "2 guys and a Grill" patrol Round Lake. They have an old pontoon boat with a couple of gas grills bolted down and a smoothie machine and a refrigerator. They patrol Round Lake (which is a no-wake zone - idle-speed only) and literally offer up grilled carry-out fare. It's pretty cool, particularly in an area that houses 80+ foot yachts as commonplace.

Over the 4th last year I saw 5 boats tied up to this carry-out 'restaurant'.

#302 | Posted by JeffJ at 2013-03-20 11:38 PM | Reply | Flag:

I'll give it a shot Jeffj. Only one on that list I currently have down is Boyne City. Only decent snowboarding I could get last year lol. A good part of my traveling anymore revolves around that in winter and diving in summer.

#303 | Posted by zeropointnrg at 2013-03-20 11:42 PM | Reply | Flag:

#302 | Posted by JeffJ at 2013-03-20 11:38 PM

That sounds seriously awesome. All that time well spent.

#304 | Posted by LIVE_OR_DIE at 2013-03-20 11:46 PM | Reply | Flag:

Zero,

You won't be disappointed. Also, if you like golf, some of the most beautiful courses in the country can be found in this area. Little Traverse Bay, Crooked Tree and Dunmaglas are downright majestic and I am only scratching the surface when it comes to northern Michigan golf courses.

#305 | Posted by JeffJ at 2013-03-20 11:46 PM | Reply | Flag:

#304 | Posted by LIVE_OR_DIE

Before my dad retired he would comment that he could literally feel the stress pour out of his body when he went out on the boat on Lake Charlevoix.

The boat rides never seem long enough!

Changing gears...how are things in your world? What culinary delights have you concocted of late?

#306 | Posted by JeffJ at 2013-03-20 11:50 PM | Reply | Flag:

Ernest Hemmingway was a bit of a fan of this lake and the region in general.

#307 | Posted by JeffJ at 2013-03-20 11:53 PM | Reply | Flag:

Changing gears...how are things in your world? What culinary delights have you concocted of late?

#306 | Posted by JeffJ at 2013-03-20 11:50 PM

A little stressful currently (need a freaking boat!), but soon to calm down, and even with the stress very good.

The wife and I have decided to try our hand at being landlords. We were going to sell our first house but the damn thing appraised low despite upgrades, and houses around us have undersold; we weren't going to make much on it so were going to get someone else to pay our mortgage for awhile until things turn around at least. Turns out a university town is a great place to rent.

The house we're buying has a nice big pool in the backyard. I'm excited about that. It's not a big serene lake but it does have a fence around it and once I'm a couple beers in it will feel like a big quiet lake. =)

Culinary creations.... believe it or not one of the oddest things I've tried lately is xanthan gum. It's actually kind of awesome. If you make a big meat and veggie sautee it will let nothing go to waste.

I also finally got some cast iron, including a big dutch oven, for Christmas this year, and I've been holding on to it for years but I finally plan to make a chili recipe Goatman gave me a long time ago. I've already made some seriously nice pulled pork in that thing. You just can't go wrong with it.

#308 | Posted by LIVE_OR_DIE at 2013-03-21 12:14 AM | Reply | Flag:

Er, the cookware was last xmas but I'm just now getting around to using it. I need to get on the ball dammit.

#309 | Posted by LIVE_OR_DIE at 2013-03-21 12:17 AM | Reply | Flag:

Northern Michigan is the best-kept secret when it comes to natural beauty.

How is Traverse City?

Our time share has a resort in that area (about 2 hours drive north East IIRC) and I'm really interested in going there.

#310 | Posted by jpw at 2013-03-21 12:31 AM | Reply | Flag:

Look at all this Michigan chatter!

...looks like it's time for a Michigan Drudge drink off...err...meet up.

#311 | Posted by Ben_Berkkake at 2013-03-21 12:36 AM | Reply | Flag:

LoD,

Never been a landlord. I am not sure I can even imagine all of the highs and lows that go along with it.

Pools rock! Glad to see you have one.

As for cooking...cast iron absoluetly rocks. My Dutch Oven gets good use and my cast iron skillet gets weekly use, especially this time of year.

I can honestly say that I've never worked with Xanthan gum - it sounds like something out of a Piers Anthony novel and my name isn't Humphrey, Bink or Trent.

#312 | Posted by jeffj at 2013-03-21 12:36 AM | Reply | Flag:

and I've been holding on to it for years but I finally plan to make a chili recipe Goatman gave me a long time ago.

If it's the three day beer chili you're going to kick yourself for waiting so long.

I'm itching for the weather to get good enough for me to pull my smoker out just to make it again.

#313 | Posted by jpw at 2013-03-21 12:36 AM | Reply | Flag:

JPW,

Traverse City is awesome. Its beauty is almost breath-taking. Wine tasting up the Old Mission Pensinsula is an absolute must. Oh, if one of the Great Lakes doesn't suit your fancy, in-land beauties like Elk Lake and Torch Lake are close by. A short-trip South/West lands you at Sleeping Bear Sand Dunes and Glen Arbor!. A longer drive north takes you to Boyne City/Lake Charlevoix. Further still lands you at Burt and Mullet Lake. Let's not forget Mackinac Island and the UP.

Great restaurants, shopping, golfing and boating abound!

#314 | Posted by JeffJ at 2013-03-21 12:42 AM | Reply | Flag:

Thanks Jeff.

I checked it out and the resort is in Boyne Falls, near the lake you posted the vid about.

Sounds great and right up our alley (the wine tasting will help convince my wife LOL).

Thanks for the recommendation!

#315 | Posted by jpw at 2013-03-21 12:50 AM | Reply | Flag:

Jeff- what, no Frankenmuth? Greektown?

#316 | Posted by Alexandrite at 2013-03-21 01:00 AM | Reply | Flag:

Boyne Falls is closer to Boyne City, Petosky, Charlevoix, Bay Harbor and Harbor Springs than it is to Traverse City.

I think the most under-rated aspect of this area is some of the restaurants. I would put Villa up against most other Italian joints I've eaten at.

#317 | Posted by JeffJ at 2013-03-21 01:01 AM | Reply | Flag:

Alex,

I was up in Frankenmuth 2 weeks ago (for work, sadly enough) and was literally amazed at how 'authentic' it is - this in spite of the fact that I've been there before. Some things never cease to amaze!

Greektown - love it! I don't know what else I can say about that.

Regardless - neither of these 2 places even remotely compare with my beloved, Northern Michigan.

#318 | Posted by JeffJ at 2013-03-21 01:05 AM | Reply | Flag:

Mackinac Island is pretty awesome.

#319 | Posted by Alexandrite at 2013-03-21 01:20 AM | Reply | Flag:

Boyne Falls is closer to Boyne City, Petosky, Charlevoix, Bay Harbor and Harbor Springs than it is to Traverse City.

Yeah I remember Traverse City being the closest airport to fly to. Still though, an hours drive isn't that bad, especially if the wine trail is good.

In any case you're making a good pitch for a trip.

#320 | Posted by jpw at 2013-03-21 01:20 AM | Reply | Flag:

I can honestly say that I've never worked with Xanthan gum - it sounds like something out of a Piers Anthony novel and my name isn't Humphrey, Bink or Trent.

#312 | Posted by jeffj at 2013-03-21 12:36 AM

I like it. It's supposedly "natural" and it will take whatever flavor you have at the bottom of the pan and make sure it's on your plate, without adding a bunch of extra starch. It's a little wierd, but worth it if you've ever regretted all those meat and veggie juices remaining at the bottom of a pan. (a little goes a long way, fyi)

I've only ever used it to capture the flavors of a stir fry or sautee, never anything else, though.

#321 | Posted by LIVE_OR_DIE at 2013-03-21 02:14 AM | Reply | Flag:

If it's the three day beer chili you're going to kick yourself for waiting so long.

I'm itching for the weather to get good enough for me to pull my smoker out just to make it again.

#313 | Posted by jpw at 2013-03-21 12:36 AM

Same one, and I'm probably going to be kicking myself. I've made a ton of different chilis, not a one out doors on an open fire, and not a one containing a metric butt load of beer in it.

#322 | Posted by LIVE_OR_DIE at 2013-03-21 02:17 AM | Reply | Flag:

If I cut off my fingers on a Delta Table Saw, do I blame the Delta CEO?

#40 | POSTED BY WISGOD

Legally, yes. It's called Torts.

#323 | Posted by brilliantbart at 2013-03-21 07:35 AM | Reply | Flag:

One wonders how Wisgod would feel after losing his finger when he found out that the CEO of that company knew of a safety device that would have prevented that table saw from cutting off his finger but refused to implement it.

Corporations do have a responsibility to make their products safe.

Cars are required to have seat belts for a reason.

www.schmidtlaw.com

#324 | Posted by donnerboy at 2013-03-21 12:53 PM | Reply | Flag:

Just as Corporations have responsibilities so does the Federal Government when it makes the decision to send it's children to war.

If you do not wish to pay the price required to support Veterans after they go to War for you then do not go to War.

#325 | Posted by donnerboy at 2013-03-21 12:58 PM | Reply | Flag:

Don't forget those other [...], Rumsfeld and Ashcroft.

#326 | Posted by spectator at 2013-03-21 05:03 PM | Reply | Flag:

I have, like many other disabled veterans, suffered from the inadequate and often inept care provided by the Veterans Administration
Tomas Young

Private medicine kills more people than guns.

The NRA.

#327 | Posted by northguy3 at 2013-03-21 05:12 PM | Reply | Flag:

Northern Michigan is the best-kept secret when it comes to natural beauty.

It is amazing, isn't it? I'm trying to convince certain people to relocate to the Cheboygan area and set up shop there. Cheap properties and great scenery (and food). Ever been here Jeff: www.hackmatackinn.com

Prime rib to die for.

I'm just not sure about the winters, though last summer was as bad up there as it was down here.

#328 | Posted by northguy3 at 2013-03-21 05:17 PM | Reply | Flag:

we have a lot of awesome lakes in Michigan.

Read somewhere that Michigan has more coast line (including all those lakes) than any other state in the Union.

#329 | Posted by northguy3 at 2013-03-21 05:23 PM | Reply | Flag:

"Heck, if Saddam was the real threat, for the 40 billion the Bushies promised the war would cost, they could have bought any number of coups in Iraq.
#291 | Posted by northguy3"

Yeah, but if it's a coup, you don't get to bomb the oil production infrastructure, the water treatment plants, etc., and then how does that help Halliburton et al.?

The Iraq war went exactly as hoped and planned by those who caused it to happen.

#330 | Posted by mOntecOre at 2013-03-21 06:14 PM | Reply | Flag:

Michigan has more coast line than alaska? I'm not sure about that.

#331 | Posted by cjk85 at 2013-03-21 10:33 PM | Reply | Flag:

Those [...] in the GOP value a soldiers life at about 3 cents so to them war is cheap.

#332 | Posted by TwoCents at 2013-03-22 02:38 AM | Reply | Flag:

Posted by TwoCents = 0

2 cents too much

#333 | Posted by Greatamerican at 2013-03-22 04:32 AM | Reply | Flag:

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