Drudge Retort: The Other Side of the News
Tuesday, March 19, 2013

One enormous issue is international migration. A distressingly large portion of the debate in many countries analyzes the effects of higher immigration on domestic citizens alone and seeks to restrict immigration to protect a national culture or existing economic interests. The obvious but too-often-underemphasized reality is that immigration is a significant gain for most people who move to a new country.

Michael Clemens, a senior fellow at the Center for Global Development in Washington, quantified these gains in a 2011 paper, "Economics and Emigration: Trillion-Dollar Bills on the Sidewalk?" He found that unrestricted immigration could create tens of trillions of dollars in economic value, as captured by the migrants themselves in the form of higher wages in their new countries and by those who hire the migrants or consume the products of their labor.

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paneocon

 

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Truly open borders might prove unworkable, especially in countries with welfare states, and kill the goose laying the proverbial golden eggs; in this regard Mr. Clemens's analysis may require some modification. Still, we should be obsessing over how many of those trillions can actually be realized.

Preferring your fellow countrymen's interests over those of foreigners is not equivalent to saying that other people do not count. It is saying that, when not fully compatible, their interests do not count equally.

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Immigration reform could boost cost of Obamacare by hundreds of billions

Earlier today, I posted on why I thought it was unlikely that immigration reform would actually pass this year. But there's another reason why it will be difficult for Republicans to back legislation as currently outlined – immigration reform could represent a massive expansion of Obamacare, potentially costing hundreds of billions of dollars over the next decade.

As the Washington Post's Sarah Kliff details, legalizing immigrants who are currently in the country illegally could make millions of them eligible for Obamacare. Though the exact number is difficult to pin down for a number of reasons, and we don't know how many immigrants would obtain legal status as a result of any reform package, one Congressional Budget Office report estimated that 7 million to 8 million illegal immigrants would be uninsured after Obamacare because they won't qualify for benefits. If this population were legalized and became eligible, it would mean increasing the number of Obamacare beneficiaries by over 20 percent. (The CBO has estimated that Obamacare would cover 36 million people either through the Medicaid expansion or the exchanges.)

washingtonexaminer.com

If immigration is a moral imperative and not bankrupting current entitlement programs is moral imperative, Do we not have a greater responsibility to our current citizens?

#1 | Posted by paneocon at 2013-03-19 03:20 PM | Reply | Flag:

It is not from the benevolence of the butcher, the brewer, or the baker that we expect our dinner, but from their regard to their own interest.
Adam Smith

#2 | Posted by paneocon at 2013-03-19 03:24 PM | Reply | Flag:

The article poses a good question: which of our moral imperatives overrides the others? It may sounds ego-centric, but I start at home and work outward. Family, friends, country, world. Underlying that is a firm belief that we are all 'endowed by our creator with certain inalienable rights'. It's not that I don't care about yours, they just aren't as important as mine in my worldview. So, while I feel for people trying to cross in the US illegally so they can get a better life, they are now or will be a potential drain on US resources that might benefit my family or friends decades or centuries from now, and that means they lose.

#3 | Posted by MUSTANG at 2013-03-19 03:45 PM | Reply | Flag:

Since the left tells us that religion is no longer an acceptable way to handle human behavior, we are left with morals and ethics. The reason I posted this is we have many moral questions to ask when it comes to current entitlement programs and future entitlement programs and the potential for economic collapse if we add more to a already stressed system.

#4 | Posted by paneocon at 2013-03-19 03:58 PM | Reply | Flag:

Just what we need - another permanent underclass to lower wages and bust unions with. And to suck down welfare.

#5 | Posted by HeliumRat at 2013-03-19 04:27 PM | Reply | Flag:

phooey.

OPEN BOARDERS.

#6 | Posted by ichiro at 2013-03-19 04:44 PM | Reply | Flag:

take away religion and we're left with morals and ethics, sounds good! get 'em out of government and the market place..

#7 | Posted by ichiro at 2013-03-19 04:46 PM | Reply | Flag:

#6 | POSTED BY ICHIRO

Because we can just print more money or tax the wealthly more? What if you're wrong and the social net fails because of your "open borders"?

#8 | Posted by paneocon at 2013-03-19 04:55 PM | Reply | Flag:

#7 Morals and ethics with no actual grounding. You end up with monogamish.

#9 | Posted by HeuristicGratis at 2013-03-19 04:56 PM | Reply | Flag:

It pains me to post this clown but Paul Krugman did address this recently.

Economics and Morality

Mark Thoma directs me to Eric Schoeneberg, who argues that the right is winning economic debates because people believe, wrongly, that there's something inherently moral about free-market outcomes.

So economics is not a morality play; the social and economic order we have doesn't represent the playing out of some kind of deep moral principles.

That doesn't mean the order we have should be overthrown: the pursuit of Utopia, of perfect economic justice, has proved to be the road to hell, while welfare-state capitalism -- a market economy with its rough edges smoothed by a strong safety net -- has produced the most decent societies ever known. The point, though, is that anyone who claims that transferring some income from the most fortunate members of society to the least is a vile injustice is closing his eyes to the obvious reality of how the world works.

krugman.blogs.nytimes.com

#10 | Posted by paneocon at 2013-03-19 05:14 PM | Reply | Flag:

-The point, though, is that anyone who claims that transferring some income from the most fortunate members of society to the least is a vile injustice is closing his eyes to the obvious reality of how the world works.

You can open your eyes now... if not your wallet.

This is especially true since the 40 year trend in US economics has been the significant redistribution of wealth UPWARDS, not downwards.

#11 | Posted by Corky at 2013-03-19 05:19 PM | Reply | Flag:

"Truly open borders might prove unworkable"

This nation was founded with open borders.

You would think that at the last "constitutional conservative" séance the dead founders might have mentioned that to you all.
Maybe they just think you are a bunch of idiots and are getting a good har~har~ at your expense?

#12 | Posted by ChiefTutMoses at 2013-03-19 06:05 PM | Reply | Flag:

We have always had open borders, you just have to be pretty tough to go through the openings and keep your head down once you get here. S. Florida is loaded will illegal immigrants from all over the Caribbean, S. America, Mexico, even some from Africa and Europe. Millions did it though, probably some of the toughest of their countrymen, most of them are hard working, decent and will be good residents and could be good citizens one day. They also help change the demographic imbalance of Social Security and Medicare. Perhaps, what we need to do is reevaluate the worth of the work they do that, apparently, not many Americans are willing to do. If you don't want them to be a drain on our social safety net, if they work hard at hard jobs, how about paying them enough to live like human beings? I think making them legally entitled to work here would probably help to make their labor worth more to employers.

#13 | Posted by danni at 2013-03-19 06:30 PM | Reply | Flag:

Ten years ago when I was on Mexico you could not pick up a paper that didn't have half page adds for jobs at Tyson chicken -- in Spanish -- and noting about being legal or requiring English.

If you want to blame someone for coming across the border ---- then blame the people who inticed them to come over the border (aka American companies).

#14 | Posted by ChiefTutMoses at 2013-03-19 06:59 PM | Reply | Flag:

Damn the drone from you liberals is obscene. The rich are horrible and they need to give more money to the poor. What no Bush references?
Not one of you understands the simplest of economic rules, supply and demand. You whine insistently about wages and the poor and you want to fill the entry level worker market with open borders but your little minds can't see the obvious issue of oversupply of the labor market causing wage deflation. You take every tax, regulatory and environmental stance that you can find to depress the job market and then you cry because companies are not creating jobs. You promote a monetary policy that rewards the wealthy and reduces the wealth of the poor through inflation and you cry about wealth stratification. If you took your head out of your sphincters long enough to take a honest look around you might make a difference in other peoples lives. I got to stop now because I'm headed for a DR vacation.

#15 | Posted by paneocon at 2013-03-19 09:44 PM | Reply | Flag:

#8
so you approve of a social safety net? regardless, freedom does not depend, ineither direction, on such a net. alas, that is another subject.

furthermore, yours is a hypothetical.
however, if, as my question asks, you do approve, then we might AS WE DO HERE EVERYDAY, discuss permanently sustaining said net. if you do not, your opinions on its sustained future are not, shall we say. first, to be considered, ...are they then?

#16 | Posted by ichiro at 2013-03-20 08:17 AM | Reply | Flag:

#16 | POSTED BY ICHIRO

Where do you get the idea that I or any other conservative doesn't approve of a social safety net?

#17 | Posted by paneocon at 2013-03-20 08:26 AM | Reply | Flag:

"He found that unrestricted immigration could create tens of trillions of dollars in economic value,"

there you go again, contradicting your own ideology.

#18 | Posted by ichiro at 2013-03-20 09:30 AM | Reply | Flag:

#18 | POSTED BY ICHIRO

Is your mind that far gone that you have to resort to taking things out of context rather than making a real salient point?

#19 | Posted by paneocon at 2013-03-20 09:34 AM | Reply | Flag:

people, individuals, are the most important thing--you might recognize that as an American value, as well as a human ideal--not nationalist groups that intend to keep from others everything they can.
second, complete freedom of movement, one world citizenship, one (Rights based, welfare protecting government) is the next most important thing.
number three. there is no number three.

#20 | Posted by ichiro at 2013-03-20 09:35 AM | Reply | Flag:

posting the articles, recent anyway, that you do, one might think you were in transition/evolving, or simply spinnng bad arguments to influence others against their interest.
i hope it is the former.

#21 | Posted by ichiro at 2013-03-20 09:39 AM | Reply | Flag:

#20 | POSTED BY ICHIRO

What? Back away from the bong, for your own good.

#22 | Posted by paneocon at 2013-03-20 09:39 AM | Reply | Flag:

#17
it was a question to you and you alone, one which you did not answer...as i might have guessed....and, no offense, i don't really care. i thought i'd lend you a hand, a prompt to "declare", so to speak.
(what your particular ideology is is unknwn to me--i know what it isn't, such as things are.)

#23 | Posted by ichiro at 2013-03-20 09:46 AM | Reply | Flag:

#17
where do i "get the idea"? the LP (Rand Paul); Objectivists (Paul Ryan).
the Tea Party? the Haters?

what a dumb question, it's current events.

#24 | Posted by ichiro at 2013-03-20 09:51 AM | Reply | Flag:

#22 good retort! nonanswer.

#25 | Posted by ichiro at 2013-03-20 09:53 AM | Reply | Flag:

addendum to #20:
where i wrote "nationalist" i should have also written: and globalists as they are understood today--more appropriately: oligarchs.
anyway, a small but important inclusion.

#26 | Posted by ichiro at 2013-03-20 09:59 AM | Reply | Flag:

fortunately, i plucked the best sentence, because the rest of the article is...lacking, poor.

#27 | Posted by ichiro at 2013-03-20 10:06 AM | Reply | Flag:

#26 | POSTED BY ICHIRO

I still have no idea what in 6 posts you are trying to ask. I suggest that if you want me to answer a question that you state it clearly. I don't have a history of not answering questions.

#28 | Posted by paneocon at 2013-03-20 10:10 AM | Reply | Flag:

Look to Milton
Open borders and the welfare state.

A decade ago, Nobel prize-winning economist Milton Friedman admonished the Wall Street Journal for its idée fixe on open-border immigration policy. "It's just obvious you can't have free immigration and a welfare state," he warned.

To be fully understood, Friedman's comment should be viewed as applying not merely to means-tested welfare programs such as food stamps, Medicaid, and public housing, but to the entire redistributive transfer state. In the "transfer state," government taxes the upper middle class and shifts some $1.5 trillion in economic resources to lower-income groups through a vast variety benefits and subsidies.

The transfer state redistributes funds from those with high-skill and high-income levels to those with lower skill levels. Low-skill immigrants become natural recipients in this process. On average, low-skill immigrant families receive $30,160 per year in government benefits and services while paying $10,573 in taxes, creating a net fiscal deficit of $19,587 that has to be paid by higher-income taxpayers.

It also substantially increases the future flow of low-skill immigrants and gives them access to welfare and transfer programs. Far from building a "wall around welfare," this legislation levels existing walls, builds a highway to Fort Knox, and shovels billions in taxpayer funds into the pockets of immigrants who entered this country illegally.

www.nationalreview.com

#29 | Posted by paneocon at 2013-03-20 10:15 AM | Reply | Flag:

Have some pity on Itchy, Paneo...he's just a lonely anarchist hoping for a global chorus of Kumbayaa. He wants welfare but not government, jobs but not corporations, etc..

#30 | Posted by MUSTANG at 2013-03-20 10:40 AM | Reply | Flag:

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