Drudge Retort: The Other Side of the News
Sunday, March 17, 2013

Salon: "No respected historian has argued for decades that the Civil War was fought over tariffs, that abolitionists were mere hypocrites, or that only constitutional concerns drove secessionists," writes University of Virginia historian Edward Ayers. Yet there's a vast chasm between this long-established scholarly consensus and the views of millions of presumably educated Americans, who hold to a theory that relegates slavery to, at best, incidental status. How did this happen? ... [A] vigorous, sustained effort by Southerners to literally rewrite history -- and among the most ardent revisionists were a group of respectable white Southern matrons known as the United Daughters of the Confederacy.

Advertisement

Menu

Advertisement

Subscriptions

Author Info

doc_sarvis

 

Advertisement

MORE STORIES

 

Advertisement

More

As the UDC gained in political clout, its members lobbied legislatures in Texas, Mississippi, North and South Carolina, and Florida to ban the purchase of textbooks that portrayed the South in anything less than heroic terms, or that contradicted any of the lost cause's basic assertions. Its reach extended not just to public schools but to tenured academia ...

Comments

Admin's note: Participants in this discussion must follow the site's moderation policy. Personal attacks, profanity, abusive conduct and expressions of prejudice are not allowed. If you have comments about site moderation, contact the site publisher in email.

To this day, it's possible to stir up a hornet's nest among ordinary Southerners by asserting that slavery was a primary cause of the Civil War; at the least, it will earn a native Southerner the accusation of having signed over his brain to those Ivy League intellectual snobs who despise all things Southern. The conviction that the South went to war primarily to defend the concept of states' rights "is in [Southerners'] families, in their churches, in their schools, in their political structure," Pitcaithley said. "They've been taught that over generations. It so embedded that -- as you have found -- if you suggest otherwise they look at you like you've put your pants on your head."

As Wm. Faulkner wrote, "The past is never dead It's not even past."

#1 | Posted by Doc_Sarvis at 2013-03-17 08:30 AM | Reply | Flag:

yes Doc, those Dems sure loved their slavery & KKK
it's noticeable that Salon article left that part out

#2 | Posted by roadrunner22 at 2013-03-17 09:15 AM | Reply | Flag:

Yes the Democrats did support racist Jim Crow in the south until the 1960's when they reversed course and passed laws to end it, at which point the racist Democrats left the party and became Dixiecrats only to finally end up as Repubicans. Today they are dissatisfied with the Republican Party and are Tea Partiers.
Being a military brat growing up in the 60's we transferred from cities in the south to cities out of the south and then back to the south again and the differences in the way history was taught was exactly as the author of the article says. Within my own family we had some members defending the Confederacy and some who understood that slavery was the primary issue involved in causing the Civil War.

#3 | Posted by danni at 2013-03-17 09:22 AM | Reply | Flag:

yes Doc, those Dems sure loved their slavery & KKK
it's noticeable that Salon article left that part out
#2 | Posted by roadrunner22 at 2013-03-17 09:15 AM

Because any ol' [bleephole] recognizes that the party names have switched on "social conservative" agendas, particularly self-evident regarding issues of equality and civil rights?

Former New York Times correspondent John Herbers is an old man now, living in retirement in Bethesda, Maryland, with his wife, Betty. but when he was growing up in Mississippi in the 1930s and 1940s, "the lost cause was one of the main themes my grandmother used to talk about: 'slavery was nothing to do with the Civil War -- we had a cotton economy and [the North] wanted to dominate us.' It was an undisputed topic." At the time, he accepted this version, as children do; today, he is struck by the vigilance with which adults in his world implanted this story in the minds of their children. "They pushed themselves to believe that," he said. "If [the war] had anything to do with slavery, they had no ground to stand on."

Oh, congratulations on reading another well-written and sourced Salon article!:]

#4 | Posted by redlightrobot at 2013-03-17 09:36 AM | Reply | Flag:

The story, though informing, is biased. The author admits there is disagreement amongst Americans. He also notes in towards the middle to end of the article that revisions are being made to history, and the Civil War's history started being revised by the federal government in the mid 20th century. What a coincidence -- shortly after the onset of the civil rights movement.

Yes, we've all heard of revisionist history and it has its ebbs and flows. Throughtout time people like Julius Caesar and Richard III have at various times been painted as pariahs or heroes. It depends who is writing the history and when. So could it be that the feds wanted to revise history to help the noble cause of civil rights?

Another interesting thing about the article. The author makes it appear that the Civil War is constantly on southerner's minds. I never really thought about it until I read this article, but I honestly can't recall anyone really talking about the Civil War, much less its causes. I live in Texas, lived in Georgia for 13 years, and work in the coastal south with lots of Louisiana and Mississippi boys and I can honestly say the Civil War is no big deal to them.

The story has several other minor cracks not worth taking the time to explore, but it is important to remember that history "changes" with the times, as the author admitted. It is also written by the victors.

My uncle, a very well read and smart historian is from Philadelphia, graduated with a Masters degree in history from the University of Pennsylvania. He tends to agree that the Civil War was about states rights, though he is quick to add that one of those rights was the right to own slaves.

BTW, the author started his story off on a fallacy. In the first paragraph he states that the Cinco de Mayo is the celebration of the battle of Puebla. Wrong. It is true the battle of Puebla was fought on that day, but the celebration is a celebration of Mexican culture "heritage and pride", not that battle.

I live in San Antonio. I've yet to hear a person of Mexican descent say that Cinco de Mayo is a celebration of the battle of Puebla. Only in Puebla is it celebrated as such.

(btw, until I looked up the wiki article, I did not know its celebration had a connection to the Civil War)

Cinco de Mayo (Spanish for "fifth of May") is a celebration held on 5 May. It originated with and is celebrated primarily by Mexican Americans in the United States.[1]. A similar celebration takes place in the Mexican state of Puebla,[note 1][2][3][4] where the holiday is called El Día de la Batalla de Puebla (English: The Day of the Battle of Puebla).[5][6][7] It originated with Mexican-American communities in the American West as a way to commemorate the cause of freedom and democracy during the first years of the American Civil War,[8][9] and today the date is observed in the United States as a celebration of Mexican heritage and pride.[10] In the state of Puebla, the date is observed to commemorate the Mexican army's unlikely victory over French forces at the Battle of Puebla on May 5, 1862, under the leadership of General Ignacio Zaragoza Seguín.[3][11]
In closing, I have to say that your headline is sensationalist. In your (and many other's opinions) there is a lie being told, at least with the currently bandied revision of history. To others, not so much. But it was an interesting, if slanted, read. Thanks

#5 | Posted by goatman at 2013-03-17 09:52 AM | Reply | Flag:

Because any ol' [bleephole] recognizes that the party names have switched on "social conservative" agendas, particularly self-evident regarding issues of equality and civil rights?

#4 | Posted by redlightrobot

lol, the ol' [bleephole] would be the guy (or gal) in the mirror when ya shave in the morning

next ya revise that Andy Jackson, founder of modern day Dem Party, was just trying to enlighten ALL them Injuns he killed or got killed via "Trail of Tears"

reminiscent of what modern day Dems have done to urban poor minorities - - "trail of beers"?
(40 oz Colt45 & twinkies)

#6 | Posted by roadrunner22 at 2013-03-17 10:12 AM | Reply | Flag:

In an ongoing revisionist history effort, Southern schools and churches still pretend the war wasn't about slavery.

Posted by doc_sarvis

perhaps ya could quote sections of "Articles of Confederation" that support your contention(s)

I thought not, just ramblings of a *umb *runk *warf

#7 | Posted by roadrunner22 at 2013-03-17 10:16 AM | Reply | Flag:

"I live in Texas, lived in Georgia for 13 years, and work in the coastal south with lots of Louisiana and Mississippi boys and I can honestly say the Civil War is no big deal to them."

My Northern in-laws in NJ like to bust my chops because I'm always the only one at reunions and gatherings from south of the Mason-Dixon. I was asked one time why we are so remindful of the Civil War because they know I do CW reenactments (not so much any more.) It's just big boys playing war and we often wear blue and play Yankee artillery because they are usually short of Union cannons. I finally told them one day that we are probably more aware because it took place HERE and not in NJ. You can hardly drive more than twenty miles without seeing a battlefield, road marker. or something representing a historical event associated with the Civil War. A good example is the well-known tourist destination of Gatlinburg. I would bet not one person on this thread knows why it's named Gatlinburg as it used to be White Oak Flats before the Civil War.

"There are many stories as to how Gatlinburg got its name, all involving a controversial figure who settled here in 1854. Radford C. Gatlin opened the town's second general store, and when the town's new post office was established there in 1856, the town's name was changed from White Oak Flats to Gatlinburg. By all accounts, Mr. Gatlin was a flamboyant preacher, establishing his own "Gatlinite" Baptist Church. He was a democrat in a republican community, and for reasons which remain unclear, he was eventually banished from the area. But he had the last laugh: the city still bears his name."

he was a supporter of the South and the story is told he agreed to leave if they would promise to leave the city's name. I think the best explanation of the Southern attitude is stated by Robert Duval playing the part of R.E. Lee in the movie "Gods and Generals" while standing on the bluffs above Fredericksburg:

"Looking down at the town of Fredericksburg, Virginia, just before the battle, Maxwell provides a stunningly effective speech for Robert E. Lee, as he recalls that he met his wife in that very village. "It's something these Yankees do not understand," he says, "will never understand. Rivers, hills, valleys, fields, even towns. To those people they're just markings on a map from the war office in Washington. To us, they're birthplaces and burial grounds, they're battlefields where our ancestors fought. They're places where we learned to walk, to talk, to pray. They're the incarnation of all our memories and all that we love."

#8 | Posted by jestgettinalong at 2013-03-17 11:28 AM | Reply | Flag:

In Texas, we were always taught that General Robert E. Lee mistook Grant for a drunken blacksmith and gave him his sword to polish.

Everyone makes mistakes.

#9 | Posted by Corky at 2013-03-17 11:48 AM | Reply | Flag:

In Texas, we were always taught...

???

"We"? I don't remember that lesson. But the school system I was taught in (Plano ISD) has consistently been rated one of the better ones in the nation. Perhaps you weren't so lucky.

#10 | Posted by goatman at 2013-03-17 11:51 AM | Reply | Flag:

Apparently some were standing behind the door when they passed out a sense of humor.

#11 | Posted by Corky at 2013-03-17 11:54 AM | Reply | Flag:

those Dems...
#2 | Posted by roadrunner22

...of over 150 years ago?

Next time, try for relevance.

#12 | Posted by Doc_Sarvis at 2013-03-17 12:26 PM | Reply | Flag:

"In Texas, we were always taught that General Robert E. Lee mistook Grant for a drunken blacksmith and gave him his sword to polish."

Actually, even after whuppin' Grant in his first battle against him at The Wilderness, Lee knew he was facing a different breed of Union general. Grant commandeered a bunch of artillerymen lounging in D.C., handed them rifles and took off right after Lee again. The other generals usually retreated back to D.C. to lick their wounds, Lee whupped him again at Spotsylvania Court House, North Anna, and Cold Harbor. It was at Cold Harbor where Grant earned the nickname, "Butcher." He just kept coming. Grant came to realize that those frontal assaults weren't destroying Lee's army as he originally had intended so set about isolating it and cutting it off. That resulted in the seige of Petersburg and the final surrender. Lee did respect Grant and knew it would be impossible to prevail if Grant continued as Grant did do.

#13 | Posted by jestgettinalong at 2013-03-17 12:29 PM | Reply | Flag:

In an ongoing revisionist history effort, Southern schools and churches still pretend the war wasn't about slavery.
Posted by doc_sarvis

perhaps ya could quote sections of "Articles of Confederation" that support your contention(s)
#7 | Posted by roadrunner22

The Articles of Confederation were dumped with the creation of the Constitution in 1787 and its ratification in 1789, more than seven decades before the Civil War.

You might be interested in Alexander Stepehens' notorious "Cornerstone Speech." He was there, in 1861 - not 1789 - serving as the vice president of the CSA.

No, look it up: it'll add to your skill set in the virtual world.

But here's an excerpt - one in which Stephens lays all this ex post facto "it wasn't about slavery" revisionism (gurgled out, one must assume, to led some shred of nobility to an ignoble cause):

Our new Government is founded upon exactly the opposite ideas; its foundations are laid, its cornerstone rests, upon the great truth that the n---- is not equal to the white man; that slavery, subordination to the superior race, is his natural and normal condition."

#14 | Posted by Doc_Sarvis at 2013-03-17 12:33 PM | Reply | Flag:

I have no purpose to introduce political and social equality between the white and black races. There is physical difference between the two which, in my judgment, will probably forever forbid their living together upon the footing of perfect equality, and inasmuch as it becomes a necessity that there must be a difference, I, as well as Judge Douglas, am in favor of the race to which I belong having the superior position.

That was from Lincoln...racists were pretty much everywhere. Lincoln's plan was to put them on ships and send them back to Africa as they were unfit to live alongside whites. The South was happy living alongside them....in some ways, Lincoln was more racist.

#15 | Posted by Jacque_Strap at 2013-03-17 12:59 PM | Reply | Flag:

"The South was happy living alongside them....in some ways, Lincoln was more racist."

I might bring up the draft riots in NYC as an indication of racism in the North too. If you ever do any study, you might find that Sherman was the biggest racist of all. The majority of Billy Yanks as well as the majority of Johnny Rebs were not fighting over the issue of slavery, you can be sure of that.

#16 | Posted by jestgettinalong at 2013-03-17 01:11 PM | Reply | Flag:

So could it be that the feds wanted to revise history to help the noble cause of civil rights?

It wasn't difficult, given the long record of writings from the South. It was all about slavery, not even the end of slavery in southern states, but the end of expansion of slavery into states being created. Probably the Feds realized it was time to speak honestly about history with regards to the Civil War, inasmuch as some people were crazy enough to consider Blacks as somewhat equal to white folk.

And Goat- A master's degree in History isn't exactly a qualification to pontificate on anything, unless it is in a high school classroom.

Confederate Vice President Alexander Stephens, who said: "Our new government is founded upon exactly the opposite idea; its foundations are laid, its cornerstone rests, upon the great truth that the n---- is not equal to the white man; that slavery, subordination to the superior race, is his natural and normal condition."

Jefferson Davis had said: "The condition of slavery with us is ... nothing but the form of civil government instituted for a class of people not fit to govern themselves. It is exactly what in every State exists in some form or other. It is just that kind of control which is extended in every northern State over its convicts, its lunatics, its minors, its apprentices. It is but a form of civil government for those who by their nature are not fit to govern themselves. We recognize the fact of the inferiority stamped upon that race of men by the Creator, and from the cradle to the grave, our Government, as a civil institution, marks that inferiority." (He said this in the Senate on February 29, 1860)

We hold as undeniable truths that the governments of the various States, and of the confederacy itself, were established exclusively by the white race, for themselves and their posterity; that the African race had no agency in their establishment; that they were rightfully held and regarded as an inferior and dependent race, and in that condition only could their existence in this country be rendered beneficial or tolerable.

That in this free government all white men are and of right ought to be entitled to equal civil and political rights; that the servitude of the African race, as existing in these States, is mutually beneficial to both bond and free, and is abundantly authorized and justified by the experience of mankind, and the revealed will of the Almighty Creator, as recognized by all Christian nations; while the destruction of the existing relations between the two races, as advocated by our sectional enemies, would bring inevitable calamities upon both and desolation upon the fifteen slave-holding states.

The writers of these documents even claimed the right to own slaves was the most important reason for the southern states joining the Union in the first place! They were honest enough to admit that they valued enslaving blacks more than freedom for themselves:

Utter subjugation awaits us in the Union, if we should consent [any] longer to remain in it. It is not a matter of choice, but of necessity. We must either submit to degradation [i.e., the "degradation" of treating blacks like human beings], and to the loss of property worth four billions of money, or we must secede from the Union framed by our fathers, to secure this as well as every other species of property. For far less cause than this [the right to own other human beings], our fathers separated from the Crown of England.

"A similar provision of the Constitution requires them [the free states] to surrender fugitives from labor [i.e., runaway slaves]. This provision and the one last referred to were our main inducements for confederating with the Northern States. Without them it is historically true that we would have rejected the Constitution.

#17 | Posted by northguy3 at 2013-03-17 01:55 PM | Reply | Flag:

David Von Drehle explains: "It's not simply a matter of denial. For most of the first century after the war, historians, novelists and filmmakers worked like hypnotists to soothe the posttraumatic memories of survivors and their descendants. Forgetting was the price of reconciliation, and Americans -- those whose families were never bought or sold, anyway -- were happy to pay it. But denial plays a part, especially in the South. After the war, former Confederates wondered how to hold on to their due pride after a devastating defeat. They had fought long and courageously; that was beyond question. So they reverse-engineered a cause worthy of those heroics. They also sensed, correctly, that the end of slavery would confer a gloss of nobility, and bragging rights, on the North that it did not deserve. As Lincoln suggested in his second Inaugural Address, the entire nation, North and South, profited from slavery and then paid dearly for it. The process of forgetting, and obscuring, was long and layered. Some of it was benign, but not all. It began with self-justifying memoirs by defeated Confederate leaders and was picked up by war-weary veterans on both sides who wanted to move on. In the devastated South, writers and historians kindled comforting stories of noble cavaliers, brilliant generals and happy slaves, all faithful to a glorious lost cause. In the prosperous North, where cities and factories began filling with freed slaves and their descendants, large audiences were happy to embrace this idea of a time when racial issues were both simple and distant."

#18 | Posted by northguy3 at 2013-03-17 01:56 PM | Reply | Flag:

Yes the Democrats did support racist Jim Crow in the south until the 1960's when they reversed course and passed laws to end it, at which point the racist Democrats left the party and became Dixiecrats only to finally end up as Repubicans. Today they are dissatisfied with the Republican Party and are Tea Partiers.
Being a military brat growing up in the 60's we transferred from cities in the south to cities out of the south and then back to the south again and the differences in the way history was taught was exactly as the author of the article says. Within my own family we had some members defending the Confederacy and some who understood that slavery was the primary issue involved in causing the Civil War.

#3 | Posted by danni at 201

to a degree of course...but there's always the matter of several prominent dems who NEVER LEFT

Al gores' father

and do you REALLY want us to bring up robert byrd....

and someone who NEVER SWITCHED....

"Meanwhile, the Brown decision was being openly defied by the Democratic governor of Arkansas (and Bill Clinton pal), Orval Faubus, who refused to admit black students to Little Rock Central High School."

and another liberal hero.....who NEVER SWITCHED

If Eisenhower's 1957 civil rights bill was weak, it was because of one man: Lyndon B. Johnson. As Robert Caro explains in his book, "Master of the Senate: The Years of Lyndon Johnson," it was LBJ who stripped the bill of its enforcement provisions. Even after that, the bill was still opposed by 18 senators -- all of them Democrats.

#19 | Posted by afkabl2 at 2013-03-17 01:56 PM | Reply | Flag:

and here is some MORE information....FACTS not lies and crap from chris matthews..

Who exactly does Matthews imagine he means by "Strom Thurmond and those boys"? Every single segregationist in the Senate was a Democrat. Only one of them ever became a Republican: Strom Thurmond.

The rest remained not only Democrats, but quite liberal Democrats. These included such liberal luminaries as Harry Byrd, Robert Byrd, Allen Ellender, Albert Gore Sr., J. William Fulbright, Walter F. George, Russell Long and Richard Russell.

Fulbright was Bill Clinton's mentor. Gore was "Al Jazeera" Gore's father. Sam Ervin headed Nixon's impeachment committee. The segregationists who were in the Senate in the '50s were rabid Joe McCarthy opponents. In the '60s, they opposed the Vietnam War and supported LBJ's Great Society programs. In the '90s, they got 100 percent ratings from NARAL Pro-Choice America.

These "Southern oppressors" were liberal Democrats when they were racists and remained liberal Democrats after they finally stopped being racists (in public). If Republicans had a racist "Southern strategy," it didn't work on the racists.

#20 | Posted by afkabl2 at 2013-03-17 01:57 PM | Reply | Flag:

and for the Coup De Grace

RCADE...I believe you said this word could be used in a quote such as this one....

As LBJ explained to fellow Democrats after doing a 180-flip on civil rights as president and pushing the 1964 Civil Rights Act (which resembled the 1957 Civil Rights Act he had gutted as a senator): "I'll have them n------ voting Democratic for two hundred years." That's according to a steward on Air Force One, who overhead him say it.

That's how liberals rewrite the history of civil rights in America.

SO...facts are facts...

#21 | Posted by afkabl2 at 2013-03-17 02:01 PM | Reply | Flag:

RCADE...I believe you said this word could be used in a quote such as this one....

No, I said that if it appears in a historic quote like that, then use "n-----."

#22 | Posted by rcade at 2013-03-17 02:03 PM | Reply | Flag:

My uncle, a very well read and smart historian is from Philadelphia, graduated with a Masters degree in history from the University of Pennsylvania. He tends to agree that the Civil War was about states rights, though he is quick to add that one of those rights was the right to own slaves.

In closing, I have to say that your headline is sensationalist. In your (and many other's opinions) there is a lie being told, at least with the currently bandied revision of history. To others, not so much. But it was an interesting, if slanted, read. Thanks

#5 | Posted by goatman at 2013-03-17 09:52 AM | Reply |

I would agree with your first paragraph and also your second one. I think Doc is concerned about revisionism but only that to his liking since he tends to be quite agenda driven instead of truth driven.

#23 | Posted by matsop at 2013-03-17 02:04 PM | Reply | Flag:

Every single segregationist in the Senate was a Democrat.

Got any more LIES you want to try and foist on your fellow mouthbretahers, aflac?

Poor aflac - still reality challenged. Republicans in the south voted against the Civil Rights Act in a higher percentage than Southern Democrats. The northern Republicans voted for the CVA in lower numbers than northern Democrats.

Southern Democrats: 7–87 (7–93%)
Southern Republicans: 0–10 (0–100%)

Northern Democrats: 145–9 (94–6%)
Northern Republicans: 138–24 (85–15%)

The Senate version:

Southern Democrats: 1–20 (5–95%)
Southern Republicans: 0–1 (0–100%)
Northern Democrats: 45–1 (98–2%)
Northern Republicans: 27–5 (84–16%)

It must hurt to be so fact-challenged, but it does explain some of the problems facing the Texas education system.

#24 | Posted by northguy3 at 2013-03-17 02:06 PM | Reply | Flag:

South Still Lies About Civil War

Well sure. No one likes admitting they fought a war for all the wrong reasons.

#25 | Posted by CalifChris at 2013-03-17 02:15 PM | Reply | Flag:

The whole thing with differences between Northern and Southern racism was explained quite well by Charles Evers when he returned to Georgia from Chicago. When asked why he came back after living in Chicago he replied that he had discovered Northerners loved black people as a race but not as individuals, whereas it was the exact opposite down South. As we speak, many blacks are moving South and returning to their roots. Look it up. Maybe it's better for them in Atlanta, Montgomery, Baton Rouge, and Nashville than it is in Chicago, NYC, Detroit and Philadelphia.

#26 | Posted by jestgettinalong at 2013-03-17 02:16 PM | Reply | Flag:

"...but it does explain some of the problems facing the Texas education system."

I'm not up on the stats very well but I'm sure the stats for Illinois are MUCH higher, especially in Chicago....Washington D.C. too.

#27 | Posted by jestgettinalong at 2013-03-17 02:20 PM | Reply | Flag:

post 22...okay..I consider that a historic quote as it shows the REAL reason this Texas embarrassment had to push the civil rights bill....but thank you for editing it instead of pulling it.

#28 | Posted by afkabl2 at 2013-03-17 02:38 PM | Reply | Flag:

"That was from Lincoln.."

And - because he wasn't an idiot - his views changed over time.

Trying to transform an ignoble cause into a noble one is undoubtedly hard werk - as anyone who ignores what Alexander Stephens had to say about what the conflict was really about is bound to discover.

#29 | Posted by Doc_Sarvis at 2013-03-17 02:39 PM | Reply | Flag:

NG....in the words I USED to use with a poster..named...uh....his name was...er..something or other..

uh

PROVE IT....I don't believe your numbers....

#30 | Posted by afkabl2 at 2013-03-17 02:40 PM | Reply | Flag:

Dirksen arrived at the Senate just as Robert C. Byrd (D-WV) was completing his marathon address of 14 hours and 13 minutes, the longest speech in the entire debate. It ended at 9:51 a.m, just nine minutes before the Senate was scheduled to convene for the pivotal vote on cloture.

ROBERT BYRD DIED a democrat....

#31 | Posted by afkabl2 at 2013-03-17 02:43 PM | Reply | Flag:

and you can lower your own level of discussion with your cute little personal attacks all you want....they simply don't matter....

It's important too to look more into the effort in 1957....when THurmond did his filabuster...

and AGAIN..arkansas gov's and others who tried to block it..WERE LIFE LONG DEMOCRATS and even helped bring billy clinton to office...

#32 | Posted by afkabl2 at 2013-03-17 02:47 PM | Reply | Flag:

as to the real topic...what's so hard to believe what goat said..

it WAS about state's rights...the main one being the right to keep slaves....I'm not sure why that's wrong..

#33 | Posted by afkabl2 at 2013-03-17 02:49 PM | Reply | Flag:

HERE is my St PADDY"S day gift..

it's a picture that was taken of me with a four leaf clover when I visited GRACIE...that's HER in the background..

( you owe me for this one G ! )

sphotos-a.xx.fbcdn.net

#34 | Posted by afkabl2 at 2013-03-17 02:55 PM | Reply | Flag:

see...a four leaf clover made of BACON...and a "DISH" in the background

get it

get it

#35 | Posted by afkabl2 at 2013-03-17 02:56 PM | Reply | Flag:

DRAT !!! sorry

THIS was supposed to go to nooner...

#36 | Posted by afkabl2 at 2013-03-17 02:56 PM | Reply | Flag:

#5 | Posted by goatman at 2013-03-17 09:52 AM

Just now caught your post, goat. You had some interesting points. The reasons for waging war are never cut and dry, are they? And there will always be hurt and tears on both sides.

And as for the Confederate flag still being displayed -- while reviled by many -- I see it merely as being a cultural/heritage symbol for Southerners to remember the tens of thousands on their side who lost their lives in the Civil War.

The Civil War should ever be brushed aside, forgotten, or changed and rewritten by either side. Too many American lives lost and hard lessons learned for that to happen.

#37 | Posted by CalifChris at 2013-03-17 03:22 PM | Reply | Flag:

The whole thing with differences between Northern and Southern racism was explained quite well by Charles Evers when he returned to Georgia from Chicago. When asked why he came back after living in Chicago he replied that he had discovered Northerners loved black people as a race but not as individuals, whereas it was the exact opposite down South.

#26 | Posted by jestgettinalong at 2013-03-17 02:16 PM | Reply

Jest, I got to know Charles back when he was mayor of Fayette, Mississippi and I did volunteer work down there. You're exactly right about what he said about the south and north. I shouldn't generalize about all lefties but many of them through their PC attitudes fit his view of how Northerners loved them as a race but not as individuals. The left is really an incorrigible scorch on our land.

#38 | Posted by matsop at 2013-03-17 03:36 PM | Reply | Flag:

good post mat.

I always remember where arguably the worst riots over forced busing wasn't in the south, but in Boston..

#39 | Posted by afkabl2 at 2013-03-17 03:44 PM | Reply | Flag:

I always remember where arguably the worst riots over forced busing wasn't in the south, but in Boston..

#39 | Posted by afkabl2 at 2013-03-17 03:44 PM | Reply

Before I went down to work in Fayette, I had this concept of the south (probably fostered by the propaganda of the MSM back then) and when I left had a totally different view. The blacks and whites in Fayette often knew each other by first names and worked together for their community good and showed respect to each other as well as a "carpetbagger" from the north. It was one of those events in life that taught me to be very careful about any information given to me and not to accept it at face value.

#40 | Posted by matsop at 2013-03-17 04:02 PM | Reply | Flag:

I see it merely as being a cultural/heritage symbol for Southerners to remember the tens of thousands on their side who lost their lives in the Civil War.

That's how I've always seen it. I've never yet met a person flying it because they wanted a return to slavery.

#41 | Posted by goatman at 2013-03-17 04:04 PM | Reply | Flag:

Goat please do not poke the victims.
That was a long time ago. But here we are.
www.phillymag.com

#42 | Posted by Federalist at 2013-03-17 04:08 PM | Reply | Flag:

I see it merely as being a cultural/heritage symbol for Southerners to remember the tens of thousands on their side who lost their lives in the Civil War.

#37 | Posted by CalifChris at 2013-03-17 03:22 PM | Reply |

As a northerner, that's how I always looked at it and still do----in spite of those who would like to use it as a foil for their own political reasons

#43 | Posted by matsop at 2013-03-17 04:15 PM | Reply | Flag:

#26 | Posted by jestgettinalong

Interesting, Lincoln apparently could see into the future!

Or are you just trying to spin away from the topic at hand.

#44 | Posted by northguy3 at 2013-03-17 04:22 PM | Reply | Flag:

www.phillymag.com

#42 | Posted by Federalist at 2013-03-17 04:08 PM | Reply |

That piece is so "right on". 2 interesting paragraphs:

"I've been here for two years, I'm almost done," she says. "Blacks use skin color as an excuse. Discrimination is an excuse, instead of moving forward. … It's a shame -- you pay taxes, they're not doing anything except sitting on porches smoking pot … Why do you support them when they won't work, just make babies and smoking pot? I walk to work in Center City, black guys make compliments, ‘Hey beautiful. Hey sweetie.' White people look but don't make comments. … "

That's the other surprise: If you're not an American, the absence of a historical filter results in a raw view focused strictly on the here and now. I meet a contractor from Maine named Adrian, who brought his Panamanian wife to live here, at 19th and Girard, where she saw fighting and drug deals and general bad behavior at the edge of Brewerytown. It all had her co-nvinced there is a "moral poverty" among inner-city blacks.

In the second paragraph the "absence of a historical filter" brings a situation in one of our large high schools to thought. The high school had a large minority of blacks who tended to intimidate and take advantage of the white kids due to their "historical baggage. Then over the next 5-10 years, that community had a fairly large number of immigrant Bosnians move in. Their kids went to that high school. Needless to say, they didn't carry the "historical filter" the American white kids did. The blacks were surprised when the Bosnian kids didn't take to their rudeness and usual intimidation. After the Bosnians got physical, the intimidation stopped.

#45 | Posted by matsop at 2013-03-17 04:30 PM | Reply | Flag:

In the post war period of reconstruction, during which the north had a great deal of power, the policies implemented had little to do with elevating the status of the freed slaves except in ways that impaired the re-establishment of southern political structures. And high external tariffs that crippled southern trade were applied right away.
These are reasons why southerners doubted that free-ing the slaves was ever a real priority in the north. And that suppressing the south was.

#46 | Posted by Rum at 2013-03-17 04:31 PM | Reply | Flag:

PROVE IT....I don't believe your numbers....

#30 | Posted by afkabl2

You really do seem to have a problem with reality and facts, don't you? Probably too much FOXAGANDA watching.

en.wikipedia.org

www.nytimes.com (enlrge and you can see who voted how.

"An excellent article on the CongressLink web site provides a history
of the drafting of the bill and the debates within the two houses of
Congress. According to the article, this is how the House of
Representatives voted:
"Of the 420 members who voted, 290 supported the civil rights bill and
130 opposed it. Republicans favored the bill 138 to 34; Democrats
supported it 152-96. It is interesting to note that Democrats from
northern states voted overwhelmingly for the bill, 141 to 4, while
Democrats from southern states voted overwhelmingly against the bill,
92 to 11."

The article later states how the Senate voted:
"[...] the Senate passed the bill by a 73 to 27 roll call vote. Six
Republicans and 21 Democrats held firm and voted against passage."

Here is the CongressLink article:
"Major Features of the Civil Rights Act of 1964"
www.congresslink.org

#47 | Posted by northguy3 at 2013-03-17 04:33 PM | Reply | Flag:

These are reasons why southerners doubted that free-ing the slaves was ever a real priority in the north. And that suppressing the south was.

#46 | Posted by Rum

Interesting. Of course that's all Monday morning quarterbacking and says nothing about why the south seceded. If you remember, the North didn't even offer Emancipation at the start of the war. But your comments still don't explain why the south seceded, other than believing in some vast conspiracy by the northern Republicans to sucker the south into war. You are aware the South started it, right?

#48 | Posted by northguy3 at 2013-03-17 04:37 PM | Reply | Flag:

#45 | POSTED BY MATSOP

I'm sure the usual suspects will attempt to read it an hide it from their minds.

#49 | Posted by Federalist at 2013-03-17 04:40 PM | Reply | Flag:

#45 | POSTED BY MATSOP

I'm sure the usual suspects will attempt to read it an hide it from their minds.

#49 | Posted by Federalist at 2013-03-17 04:40 PM | Reply | Flag:

That's because they're comfortable in the status quo and wouldn't want to face reality and deal with it. I think the author summarizes their situations quite will:

"Meanwhile, when I drive through North Philly to visit my son, I continue to feel both profoundly sad and a blind desire to escape.

Though I wonder: Am I allowed to say even that?"

#50 | Posted by matsop at 2013-03-17 04:48 PM | Reply | Flag:

Why would the democrats want the truth about the civil war out there. They are the ones who attempted to keep slavery and added another century of segregation after it as well. The democrats will never allow true history out there because it would mean admitting the republicans did in fact begin with the idea of abolition and succeeded at removing slavery.

What have the democrats done? After slavery, they imposed segregation. They resisted women affirming their right to vote and then they imposed varieties of socialism to basically enslave everyone to the government. Great track record for the democrats.

The biggest problem no one will admit what it was. The determination that States do not have States rights when it comes to denying people their unalienable right to freedom. Neither party will admit they do not have any authority over rights, only the individual does. Whether you follow a bible from religion or the holy book of the comminist manifesto, the fact is the government has no authorization over individual unalienable rights. That is what the civil war is all about and why the democrats do all they can to hide what they are and why the republicans dont push too hard, they want religious based law as much as the democrats want Karl Marx to reign.

#51 | Posted by priddseren at 2013-03-17 04:48 PM | Reply | Flag:

Why don't we let the South seceede now? They can teach their kids whatever they want and the rest of us won't have to support them.

#52 | Posted by squinch at 2013-03-17 05:01 PM | Reply | Flag:

NorthGuy
The south seceded because they did not see a way to live with their slave population except as its legal, overt masters and that long-term trends in the Union would make that impossible. In this sense, "Slavery" was the root cause driving the souths departure from the union.
Few people in the north at the time thought an integrated, equality based relationship with ex slaves would work. However, the most visible and vocal portion in the north were the Prohibitionists whose suggestion for ending the institution of slavery was to replay the Slave Revolt and massacre of the slave-owning class that had occurred in Haiti within memory beforehand.

#53 | Posted by Rum at 2013-03-17 05:10 PM | Reply | Flag:

I meant Absolutionists.

#54 | Posted by Rum at 2013-03-17 05:12 PM | Reply | Flag:

Why don't we let the South seceede (sic) now? They can teach their kids whatever they want

Like how to spell "secede", perhaps?

#55 | Posted by goatman at 2013-03-17 05:14 PM | Reply | Flag:

Matsy - you're not a Grand Kleage or something in your spare time, are you? Maybe you should see how Europe treated blacks long before white Americans believed they were really people and how the Brits were disgusted by the treatment of black American GIs by their white comrades in WW2.

I guess the Europeans all went to that high school you were talking about.

Nice to see you are down with Muslim violence in America, though. Them Bosnians ain't baptists, you know.

#56 | Posted by northguy3 at 2013-03-17 05:22 PM | Reply | Flag:

#53 Rum - agreed. The Slave states were afraid they would get surrounded by new non-slave states and eventually get unslaved.

#57 | Posted by northguy3 at 2013-03-17 05:24 PM | Reply | Flag:

The final debates in various southern legislatures leading up to the voting on articles of secession are a great source regarding what southern elites were really thinking.
1. New England had argued for a right to secede during the war of 1812.
2. Lincoln did not believe blacks could live free in America without damaging society..
3. Lincoln campaigned against slavery in the election of 1860.
4. The public face of the North was John Brown and Harriet Beecher Stowe who basically wanted the Southern White Elites to be slaughtered.
Put all this together and paranoia about continuing in the Union is not so hard to understand.

#58 | Posted by Rum at 2013-03-17 05:24 PM | Reply | Flag:

The problem with the phrase "State's rights" is it doesn't enumerate any rights.

Without stating the so-called "rights" that were being fought over, the phrase "State's rights" is a lie of omission.

#59 | Posted by snoofy at 2013-03-17 05:30 PM | Reply | Flag:

#55 GOATMAN
If I did would that get them to seceede?

#60 | Posted by squinch at 2013-03-17 05:31 PM | Reply | Flag:

The great irony of the Civil war in the the south was the slave owners, who stood to benefit from victory could easily buy their way out of service, but the good ol' boys, who stood most to gain with abolition, as an agrarian society, died by the thousands to maintain it.

Another irony was, after the Emancipation Proclamation, England, who depended on southern cotton, couldn't recognize the Confederacy as a nation for political reasons and started cotton plantations in India. ithout England, and some other Euro-weenies, the Federal navy blockade could not be breached.

#61 | Posted by northguy3 at 2013-03-17 05:31 PM | Reply | Flag:

Maybe you should see how Europe treated blacks long before white Americans believed they were really people ...

How? Per capita, there are very few there. Today the UK and France by far have the most, but the rest of the continent? They are still relatively rare.

Pre WWII, many Europeans hadn't even seen a black person in their lives.

#62 | Posted by goatman at 2013-03-17 05:31 PM | Reply | Flag:

Another irony was, after the Emancipation Proclamation, England, who depended on southern cotton, couldn't recognize the Confederacy as a nation for political reasons and started cotton plantations in India

I don't know if this is true or not (you post so many falsehoods, I don't have time to verify everything) but cotton exports increased after the Civil War.

fraser.stlouisfed.org

Sure would be nice for you to post links to your outrageous claims and save the rest of us the trouble from ferreting out your lies.

#64 | Posted by goatman at 2013-03-17 05:38 PM | Reply | Flag:

I see it merely as being a cultural/heritage symbol for Southerners to remember the tens of thousands on their side who lost their lives in the Civil War.

Pretty much like all the bin laden posters in pakistan and afghanistan. One man's terrorist is another man's hero.

###
Pre WWII, many Europeans hadn't even seen a black person in their lives.

#62 | Posted by goatman

True, but they didn't hate them because they considered them sub-human.

#65 | Posted by northguy3 at 2013-03-17 05:39 PM | Reply | Flag:

If I did would that get them to seceede?

I don't know. I'm not Jean Dixon. Get an education and give it a try. Let us know what happens.

#66 | Posted by goatman at 2013-03-17 05:41 PM | Reply | Flag:

True, but they didn't hate them because they considered them sub-human

Jesus, you're naive. I've spent a lot of time in Western Europe. I've heard so many people there talk about the [...], even out of context of whatever was going on.

I can't speak of whether they do it because they consider them sub-human or not (I never asked), but racism and prejudice against them is every bit as strong as anywhere I've ever been.

#67 | Posted by goatman at 2013-03-17 05:43 PM | Reply | Flag:

racism and prejudice against them is every bit as strong as anywhere I've ever been.

Is there data to support that? For example, do they really have the disproportional incarceration rate and felony conviction rate as they do here?

#68 | Posted by snoofy at 2013-03-17 05:48 PM | Reply | Flag:

Is there data to support that? For example, do they really have the disproportional incarceration rate and felony conviction rate as they do here?

If they commit a disproportional amount of the crime, they probably do.

I"m speaking from my experiences there, not crime statistics.

#69 | Posted by goatman at 2013-03-17 05:51 PM | Reply | Flag:

I don't know if this is true or not (you post so many falsehoods, I don't have time to verify everything)

Such as?

"Before the American Civil War, cotton produced in the American South had accounted for 77 percent of the 800 million pounds of cotton used in Great Britain. After Britain had officially declared its neutrality in the American war in May 1861, the president of the Confederacy, Jefferson Davis – a Mississippi planter, Secretary of War under U.S. President Franklin Pierce, and former U. S. senator – strongly supported what became known as King Cotton diplomacy. Confederate leaders believed an informal embargo on cotton would lead Great Britain into formal recognition of the Confederacy and to diplomatic intervention with other European countries on behalf of the South.

But when the cotton famine did come, it quickly transformed the global economy. The price of cotton soared from 10 cents a pound in 1860 to $1.89 a pound in 1863-1864. Meanwhile, the British had turned to other countries that could supply cotton, such as India, Egypt, and Brazil, and had urged them to increase their cotton production.

America regained its sought-after position as the world's leading producer of cotton. By 1870, sharecroppers, small farmers, and plantation owners in the American south had produced more cotton than they had in 1860, and by 1880, they exported more cotton than they had in 1860"

mshistorynow.mdah.state.ms.us

After
the
Civil
War,
the
price
of
cotton
dropped
nearly
50
percent.

oklahoma4h.okstate.edu

Although declining in overall importance in the American economy, cotton production actually expanded after 1865. Out of the disarray that followed emancipation, southern landowners constructed new forms of servitude -- tenantry and sharecropping. These coercive institutions (involving the extension of goods or credit to rural inhabitants in exchange for their labor) controlled poor whites as well as newly freed blacks. Rural poverty, overproduction, and the resulting low prices for cotton all contributed to the South's postwar stagnation. The region's woes increased after 1894 with the arrival of the boll weevil, which savaged cotton crops.

www.history.com

Apology accepted Goatsy.

#70 | Posted by northguy3 at 2013-03-17 05:52 PM | Reply | Flag:

After Britain had officially declared its neutrality in the American war in May 1861

LOL

I have hanging on my wall right now, an original confederate war bond sold to England. It has only one of it's payment coupons clipped. The due date for the next one? July, 1865. That means the war bond was bought in January 1865 since they coupons are in 6 months increments.

Doesn't sound much to me like they were neutral after 1861,

Apology accepted for your posting of erroneous data.

#71 | Posted by goatman at 2013-03-17 05:59 PM | Reply | Flag:

I"m speaking from my experiences there, not crime statistics.

Then you're telling us about your bias, not about reality.

#72 | Posted by snoofy at 2013-03-17 06:01 PM | Reply | Flag:

i239.photobucket.com

i239.photobucket.com

So much for England's neutrality after 1861. LOL

#73 | Posted by goatman at 2013-03-17 06:05 PM | Reply | Flag:

Then you're telling us about your bias, not about reality.

Hard time with comprehension, huh? No, I'm talking abut my experience, not bias.

Read as many times as it takes to sink in, snoofy.

#74 | Posted by goatman at 2013-03-17 06:06 PM | Reply | Flag:

Matsy - you're not a Grand Kleage or something in your spare time, are you?

#56 | Posted by northguy3 at 2013-03-17 05:22 PM | Reply

Northgirl, you certainly are insulting to say the least----get my title right; it's Kleagle not "Kleage". You should not show your ignorance so blatantly.

#75 | Posted by matsop at 2013-03-17 06:08 PM | Reply | Flag:

I guess the Europeans all went to that high school you were talking about.

Nice to see you are down with Muslim violence in America, though.

#56 | Posted by northguy3 at 2013-03-17 05:22 PM | Reply

It's interesting that you consider Muslim Bosnians as Europeans.

#76 | Posted by matsop at 2013-03-17 06:12 PM | Reply | Flag:

Every European nation wanted the South to win. All of them wanted N. America to be as divided as possible. Divide and conquer. This was axiomatic and is one of the main reason the North fought so hard. They wanted to live in a strong America, not something divided and ruled-over like India at the time.
The Brits were hardly neutral. Recognizing the South would have been an act of war, which they were not up for, but they did not mind selling the south all the rifles and gunpowder they could pay for. And warships.

#77 | Posted by Rum at 2013-03-17 06:15 PM | Reply | Flag:

If the Union had pre-ordered the entire production capability of the Enfield Rifle works in the UK the south would not have gotten them and the war would have sputtered out, most likely.
A suggestion to this effect was made but ignored.
Same as it ever was.

#78 | Posted by Rum at 2013-03-17 06:21 PM | Reply | Flag:

The Brits were hardly neutral. Recognizing the South would have been an act of war, which they were not up for, but they did not mind selling the south all the rifles and gunpowder they could pay for. And warships.

And buying Confederate bonds as the one I have now on my wall and linked to pictures of in post #73

#79 | Posted by goatman at 2013-03-17 06:21 PM | Reply | Flag:

Hard time with comprehension, huh? No, I'm talking abut my experience, not bias.

Distinction without a difference.

Perhaps you'd prefer to call it hearsay?

#80 | Posted by snoofy at 2013-03-17 07:02 PM | Reply | Flag:

Perhaps you'd prefer to call it hearsay?

No. Hearsay is if someone else related the experience. However I experienced it myself.

But perhaps my hearing statements like, "I'm glad we don't have as many [...] here as you do in the US" is really a term of endearment and my bias mistook as a negative thing.

Thanks for pointing out that possibility, snoofy.

#81 | Posted by goatman at 2013-03-17 07:05 PM | Reply | Flag:

Got any more LIES you want to try and foist on your fellow mouthbretahers, aflac?
Poor aflac - still reality challenged. Republicans in the south voted against the Civil Rights Act in a higher percentage than Southern Democrats. The northern Republicans voted for the CVA in lower numbers than northern Democrats.
Southern Democrats: 7–87 (7–93%)
Southern Republicans: 0–10 (0–100%)
Northern Democrats: 145–9 (94–6%)
Northern Republicans: 138–24 (85–15%)
The Senate version:
Southern Democrats: 1–20 (5–95%)
Southern Republicans: 0–1 (0–100%)
Northern Democrats: 45–1 (98–2%)
Northern Republicans: 27–5 (84–16%)
It must hurt to be so fact-challenged, but it does explain some of the problems facing the Texas education system.

#24 | POSTED BY NORTHGUY3 AT 2013-03-17 02:06 PM | FLAG:

Couldn't help but notice that according to your numbers 37.1% of elected Democrats voted against versus 19.5% of elected Republicans. You did a good job of cherry picking though to make it seem like your side was more in the right.

#82 | Posted by gavaster at 2013-03-17 07:32 PM | Reply | Flag:

And buying Confederate bonds as the one I have now on my wall and linked to pictures of in post #73

#79 | Posted by goatman at 2013-03-17 06:21 PM | Reply

I don't see anything in the pictures of your bonds that ties them to a purchase by England. It appears that anyone could have purchased those bonds---even an American or British subject. What makes you think the government of Britain purchased those bonds?

#83 | Posted by Buffalo_Bob at 2013-03-17 07:34 PM | Reply | Flag:

I don't see anything in the pictures of your bonds that ties them to a purchase by England.

Of course not. It's not there. But thank you for admitting you are too stupid to look up the series on the internet to verify.

#84 | Posted by goatman at 2013-03-17 07:36 PM | Reply | Flag:

Doesn't sound much to me like they were neutral after 1861,

Apology accepted for your posting of erroneous data.

#71 | Posted by goatman

Goatsy, maybe you should get your uncle to teach you about history or something. Being "neutral" doesn't mean not taking sides. See lend Lease.

Here's some info about your historical artifact:

The failure of King Cotton diplomacy was merely a tactical blunder with no reflection on the power of cotton. The imaginative and brilliant financing of the cotton-backed Erlanger bond, launched in Europe in March 1863, epitomized the potential of cotton credit. The Erlanger bond, named after the powerful French banking house Erlanger & Cie., was a dual currency, one commodity bond. Through it the Confederate States of America attempted to borrow 3 million pound sterling or 75 million French francs for 20 years, priced at 7 percent. Investors could receive coupon and principal payments in either pound sterling or French francs, and were given the additional option of taking payment in cotton at a fixed price. The high-risk Erlanger bond was oversubscribed, and the price fell within a few months. The Erlanger bond quickly became one of history's most important junk bonds.

And how Britain traded guns for cotton, as Snoofy pointed out:

"Nonetheless, the Confederacy was able to use cotton as a bartering tool to fund the purchase of weapons, ammunition, and ships from British manufacturers. The transport of the armaments to the Confederacy was made possible by the lucrative cotton trade that tempted blockade-runners to pierce the Union blockade for potential profits of 300 percent to 500 percent per voyage. U.S. President Abraham Lincoln had declared a naval blockade on the Confederacy in April 1861 to prevent its shipments of cotton to European powers. The blockade covered the seaports along the southern Atlantic coast below Washington, D.C., and extended along the Gulf coast to the Mexican border. The blockade-runners would offload cotton at the British islands of Nassau and Bermuda off the Confederate coast in exchange for armaments. Although the Union increased its number of blockaders, especially steam vessels, their effectiveness was hampered by the lack of coal and maintenance problems. It was the Union capture of southern ports, more than the blockade, that reduced the Confederate cotton-armaments trade. The last port, Wilmington, North Carolina, was taken in January 1865.

Lieutenant Colonel J. W. Mallet, a Confederate ordnance officer, praised the armaments supplied through the blockade with "cotton in payment" as "being of incalculable value." At the Battle of Shiloh, Confederate troops used weaponry and supplies conveyed from Great Britain by the blockade-runner Fingal. During the war, an estimated 600,000 "pieces of equipment" were supplied by the British. In his memoirs, Union General Ulysses S. Grant acknowledged the superiority of the British rifles that his forces had captured at the siege of Vicksburg. The rifles, he wrote, had "run the blockade." British-built war ships, most notably the C.S.S. Alabama, destroyed much of the Northern merchant marine. Cotton had financed the construction of the war ships."

And you're right, you don't have to apologize. You're the way God made you and God don't make no mistakes. Be proud of who you are, regardless of what anybody else says. Remember, they're not handicaps unless you let them be.

#85 | Posted by northguy3 at 2013-03-17 07:37 PM | Reply | Flag:

It appears that anyone could have purchased those bonds---even an American or British subject.

Um bob, my good friend, I know reality escapes you, but believe me when I say it is highly unlikely the Americans were buying Confederate war bonds. Trust me on this one.

#86 | Posted by goatman at 2013-03-17 07:38 PM | Reply | Flag:

#82 | Posted by gavaster at 2013-03-17 07:32 PM | Reply | Flag

I believe your problem stems from a lack of understanding that Republicans and democrats are fixed in their beliefs. That is incorrect. Republicans and democrats change sides about every hundred years it seems. What DOESN'T change in liberal views and condervative views. The facts are that LIBERALS voted for the Civil Rights act and CONSERVATIVES voted against the Civil Rights Act---no matter which party they were in at the time.

#87 | Posted by Buffalo_Bob at 2013-03-17 07:38 PM | Reply | Flag:

Being "neutral" doesn't mean not taking sides.

???

That's exactly what it means. LOL

Have you lost it completely?

#88 | Posted by goatman at 2013-03-17 07:39 PM | Reply | Flag:

Um bob, my good friend, I know reality escapes you, but believe me when I say it is highly unlikely the Americans were buying Confederate war bonds. Trust me on this one.

#86 | Posted by goatman at 2013-03-17 07:38 PM | Reply | Flag

UMMMM not even Southern Americans? Still, you didn't answer the question. What makes you think the government of Britain bought those bonds?

#89 | Posted by Buffalo_Bob at 2013-03-17 07:40 PM | Reply | Flag:

Sorry, bob. I refuse to let your inability to read become my problem. I explained it already.

Bye

#90 | Posted by goatman at 2013-03-17 07:43 PM | Reply | Flag:

You did a good job of cherry picking though to make it seem like your side was more in the right.

#82 | Posted by gavaster at 2013-03-17 07:32 PM | Reply

Northgal, cherry pick? Naw, that can't be----no self respecting lefty/demonrat would ever think of being deceptive.

#91 | Posted by matsop at 2013-03-17 07:45 PM | Reply | Flag:

Couldn't help but notice that according to your numbers 37.1% of elected Democrats voted against versus 19.5% of elected Republicans. You did a good job of cherry picking though to make it seem like your side was more in the right.

#82 | Posted by gavaster

maybe, instead of trying to throw around cheap insults, you should go back and read aflac's post. You know, the one that said "Every single segregationist in the Senate was a Democrat."

Or maybe he just meant the Republican segregationist was married?

Nobody denies that the southern Democrats were segregationists. Not too many white guys would vote for the Party of Lincoln down there. Just as nobody can deny they switched allegiance after the CVA was passed. Even LBJ said "we've lost the south for a generation".

Google the republicans' "southern strategy".

#92 | Posted by northguy3 at 2013-03-17 07:47 PM | Reply | Flag:

Have you lost it completely?

#88 | Posted by goatman

No, I still don't live in Texas. So America was with the British in 1939, and the Chinese before that.

Something you might want to ask your uncle about: the Neutrality Acts of 1930s.

#93 | Posted by northguy3 at 2013-03-17 07:51 PM | Reply | Flag:

It was no secret at the time that the UK and all the Euros wanted the South to win. No one on that side of the pond accepted that the USA should control the whole continent. The USA called that notion "Manifest Destiny" but to everyone else it was a scary concept.
One could argue that this was the real issue being fought over during the Revolutionary War and the War of 1812. Everyone knew that America was going to be important in the future but not everyone wanted it to be unified from one ocean to the other.

#94 | Posted by Rum at 2013-03-17 07:53 PM | Reply | Flag:

No, I still don't live in Texas. So America was with the British in 1939

Oh, I'm sorry. I thought this thread was about the Civil War era, not WWII.

That silly Texan in me . . .

#95 | Posted by goatman at 2013-03-17 07:54 PM | Reply | Flag:

I know reality escapes you, but believe me when I say it is highly unlikely the Americans were buying Confederate war bonds. Trust me on this one.

Typical righties, won't even support their own cause. Or are you saying Confederates weren't Americans? Methinks Bob caught you using that word in the wrong context.

So your "bond" came over from Europe, did it?

#96 | Posted by northguy3 at 2013-03-17 07:54 PM | Reply | Flag:

Or are you saying Confederates weren't Americans?

Of course I'm saying that. Pick up a history book. No one calls the CSA "Americans".

geez

So your "bond" came over from Europe, did it?

I'm pretty sure that's where England is. Do you know differently?

#97 | Posted by goatman at 2013-03-17 07:57 PM | Reply | Flag:

If you asked a Southern in 1860 about being "American" he or she would mention their state in reply. The south lost partly because they were weakly federalized. Fighting forces in the south were almost always raised per locale and leaders elected locally.

#98 | Posted by Rum at 2013-03-17 08:00 PM | Reply | Flag:

Sorry, bob. I refuse to let your inability to read become my problem. I explained it already.

Bye

#90 | Posted by goatman at 2013-03-17 07:43 PM | Reply | Flag

You mean you lied already---big difference there. I read very well. Your bonds were most likely bought by some southern aristocrat and your delusions imagined a purchase by the King Of England.

#99 | Posted by Buffalo_Bob at 2013-03-17 08:04 PM | Reply | Flag:

Your bonds were most likely bought by some southern aristocrat and your delusions imagined a purchase by the King Of England.

Fine with me if you believe that. It's as delusional as you thinking I said it was bought by the King of England, which I didn't say of course since the ruling monarch was not a king. It was a Queen -- Victoria.

Go back to things you know about like smokestacks on the moon and leave reality to the rest of us.

But, please, boob, show me where I said it was purchased by the king of England.

Thanks

(god, I grow weary with absolute ignorance of history like this)

#100 | Posted by goatman at 2013-03-17 08:12 PM | Reply | Flag:

Pick up a history book. No one calls the CSA "Americans".

#97 | Posted by goatman at 2013-03-17 07:57 PM | Reply | Flag

That would seem to take away the MYTH that southern Americans were merely fighting for States Rights. According to you they wanted nothing to do with America at all, even unwilling to be called American anymore.

That doesn't mitigate your myth about your bonds. I doubt the English government needed thirty dollars bad enough to cash in one coupon.

#101 | Posted by Buffalo_Bob at 2013-03-17 08:17 PM | Reply | Flag:

I doubt the English government needed thirty dollars bad enough to cash in one coupon.

That breaks my heart.

Tell me more about the King of England during the Civil War.

#102 | Posted by goatman at 2013-03-17 08:21 PM | Reply | Flag:

maybe, instead of trying to throw around cheap insults, you should go back and read aflac's post. You know, the one that said "Every single segregationist in the Senate was a Democrat."
Or maybe he just meant the Republican segregationist was married?
Nobody denies that the southern Democrats were segregationists. Not too many white guys would vote for the Party of Lincoln down there. Just as nobody can deny they switched allegiance after the CVA was passed. Even LBJ said "we've lost the south for a generation".
Google the republicans' "southern strategy".

#92 | POSTED BY NORTHGUY3 AT 2013-03-17 07:47 PM | FLAG:

Actually Afk was arguing that the real racists were the Democrats in that time and that they haven't changed. To which you replied that "more southern Republicans" voted against it as a percentage while ignoring the fact that Dems voted in greater percentages against. Also known as cherry picking, see? He was talking about all and you only compared southern.

Google? Lol No thanks. It's an irrelevant (today) piece of history that came out of the nations struggle to come to terms with equal rights for all men no matter their race when the whole world was embracing slavery. I have never met anyone who believes or discusses southern strategy as anything but history. The fact that Democrats attempt to label Republicans as racist based on ties to the 40 Repubs who voted against the civil rights act while ignoring the 117 Democrats who did the same is moronic. So you are arguing that those 117 Democrats switched parties and are still Republicans today after 140 years? It borders on conspiracy theory. I don't know anyone in the south who is a true racist. It's pathetic and contemptible that politicians still squabble over "the black vote" as if they are pawns in a chess game. If politicians on both sides spent as much time planning how to tackle social and fiscal issues as they do voting blocks I might not be so concerned with our future.

#103 | Posted by gavaster at 2013-03-17 08:41 PM | Reply | Flag:

Still waiting to hear more about the King of England in the mid 19th century you said I alleged bought war bonds, bob. Also waiting for the you to tell me the post I referred to him.

... and your delusions imagined a purchase by the King Of England.

#99 | POSTED BY BUFFALO_BOB

Please. Why won't you expound?

#104 | Posted by goatman at 2013-03-17 08:43 PM | Reply | Flag:

#104 | Posted by goatman at 2013-03-17 08:43 PM | Reply | Flag

You expound. You think your bonds were purchased by the Queen of England.

The queen was king at that time

;-)

#105 | Posted by Buffalo_Bob at 2013-03-17 08:54 PM | Reply | Flag:

#105.

LOL

That was about the lamest thing I've ever read.

That's all from me on this. Again, you've outdone yourself. I can contribute nothing better.

Bye, my good friend, "king of England in the mid 19th century" bob. LOL

#106 | Posted by goatman at 2013-03-17 09:06 PM | Reply | Flag:

All you have to do is read the various declaration of causes of secession. The South tells you what it was about in their own words.

sunsite.utk.edu

"The people of Georgia having dissolved their political connection with the Government of the United States of America, present to their confederates and the world the causes which have led to the separation. For the last ten years we have had numerous and serious causes of complaint against our non-slave-holding confederate States with reference to the subject of African slavery."

"In the momentous step which our State has taken of dissolving its connection with the government of which we so long formed a part, it is but just that we should declare the prominent reasons which have induced our course.

Our position is thoroughly identified with the institution of slavery-- the greatest material interest of the world. Its labor supplies the product which constitutes by far the largest and most important portions of commerce of the earth. These products are peculiar to the climate verging on the tropical regions, and by an imperious law of nature, none but the black race can bear exposure to the tropical sun. These products have become necessities of the world, and a blow at slavery is a blow at commerce and civilization. That blow has been long aimed at the institution, and was at the point of reaching its consummation. There was no choice left us but submission to the mandates of abolition, or a dissolution of the Union, whose principles had been subverted to work out our ruin."

"A geographical line has been drawn across the Union, and all the States north of that line have united in the election of a man to the high office of President of the United States, whose opinions and purposes are hostile to slavery. He is to be entrusted with the administration of the common Government, because he has declared that that "Government cannot endure permanently half slave, half free," and that the public mind must rest in the belief that slavery is in the course of ultimate extinction."

"They demand the abolition of n---- slavery throughout the confederacy, the recognition of political equality between the white and n---- races, and avow their determination to press on their crusade against us, so long as a n---- slave remains in these States."

#107 | Posted by Jasper at 2013-03-17 09:25 PM | Reply | Flag:

Jasper
Excellent point. The various articles of secession and the recorded debates leading up to them really lay everything out.
The REAL issue was slavery... because the Southerners had talked themselves into believing they had no choice but to maintain it.
Sam Houston is revered in Texas. In fact, a respectable city was named after him.
He told the secessionists that they were full of [...]. He told them that the north was not out to get them, and that if they did not secede they would be left alone while the north got rich manufacturing stuff.
He barely got out alive, at the time, but he was absolutely right at the time. And respected today in the Lone Star State.

#108 | Posted by Rum at 2013-03-17 09:40 PM | Reply | Flag:

#107 newsworthy.

#109 | Posted by snoofy at 2013-03-17 09:46 PM | Reply | Flag:

It is so bad manners to say it, but Houston, Texas is nowadays in an epochal economic boom. You may have heard of fracking? Who do think owns that?

#110 | Posted by Rum at 2013-03-17 09:50 PM | Reply | Flag:

"Yet there's a vast chasm between this long-established scholarly consensus and the views of millions of presumably educated Americans, who hold to a theory that relegates slavery to, at best, incidental status."

If anything we were taught that slavery and the noble cause to free the black man was the reason the Federalists fought the civil war. If anything, it has been liberal retards and edumacators who have consistently distorted the truth to the point that most public skrool curriculums conveniently skip over the civil war period of American history.

#111 | Posted by justanoversight at 2013-03-17 10:09 PM | Reply | Flag:

Oh, I'm sorry. I thought this thread was about the Civil War era, not WWII.

That silly Texan in me . . .

#95 | Posted by goatman

you seemed so confused about how a country can claim to be "neutral" but actually favoring one side that I thought I'd give you an example of it in a more recent context. I hope this next statement doesn't confuse you more, but sometimes governments tell fibs. I know that goes against what you learn in Sunday school, but it does happen.

###
presumably educated Americans, who hold to a theory that relegates slavery to, at best, incidental status."

This split doesn't hold a candle to the split between established facts and the percentage of "educated" Americans who believe the Earth is only a few thousand years old. The war being to free the slaves is taught in elementary school because it would be difficult to explain the warped spin the rebels put on the Constitution to justify slavery and treason, nevermind the Biblical justifications used. Most high school kids, at least in Ohio, know the truth by the time they graduate.

#112 | Posted by northguy3 at 2013-03-17 10:24 PM | Reply | Flag:

Most high school kids, at least in Ohio, know the truth ...

Which version?

#113 | Posted by goatman at 2013-03-17 10:26 PM | Reply | Flag:

The fact that Democrats attempt to label Republicans as racist based on ties to the 40 Repubs who voted against the civil rights act while ignoring the 117 Democrats who did the same is moronic.

Nobody is arguing that the Dems held the south following the Civil War. No proud southern man was going to vote for the party of Lincoln. It wasn't until Johnson's CRA that the Republicans took over the south.

What is moronic is saying Republicans aren't racists because of what they did 50 years ago. Take a look at Congress and the Senate. There are more blacks leading the Arayan Nations than elected black Republicans. And there always has been a distinct whiteness to the GOP since they unveiled their "southern strategy". And remember, the GOP ran as "The Party of Lincoln" where they could pick up the few black votes available until the 60s.

en.wikipedia.org

#114 | Posted by northguy3 at 2013-03-17 10:47 PM | Reply | Flag:

Which version?

#113 | Posted by goatman

Goat, as much as I enjoy educating Texans like you and aflac ( my daddy always said, it is better to light one candle than to curse the dummies), there comes a time when you and aflac must step up and learn on your own. Just keep telling yourself you can do it. Be the Little Electrician that Could.

Now go forth and learn, my boy!

#115 | Posted by northguy3 at 2013-03-17 10:51 PM | Reply | Flag:

#115 You don't know, then? Is that what that what that babbling is all about?

OK.

Be the Little Electrician that Could.

No thanks. I never had any desire to be an electrician. What made you think I did?

#116 | Posted by goatman at 2013-03-17 10:58 PM | Reply | Flag:

If anything, it has been liberal retards and edumacators who have consistently distorted the truth to the point that most public skrool curriculums conveniently skip over the civil war period of American history.

Link?

#117 | Posted by jpw at 2013-03-18 12:35 AM | Reply | Flag:

would be difficult to explain the warped spin the rebels put on the Constitution to justify slavery and treason

Jeez, talk about warped spin.

Look, this argument has been had on the DR before and I'm squarely behind the Civil War being fought over slavery.

However, "state's rights" and such is not an invalid perspective. The arguments put forth my southerners is not mutually exclusive from the slavery issue.

I do take issue though with the whitewashing of those reasons to remove the centrality of slavery.

#118 | Posted by jpw at 2013-03-18 12:39 AM | Reply | Flag:

oh good God, not only the DoC, they are the main, but there are similar relaled groups.

i've known that, blut the DoC, for...like... ever.

they place/sonsor statues on publc grounds where you couldn't put Jesus, i.e, in front os southern courthouses...where, incidently, blacks have sent off to prison in th drug war far more often than anyone else.

i hate them.

#119 | Posted by ichiro at 2013-03-18 08:41 AM | Reply | Flag:

the f'in Lost Cause, stay dead!

yet the struggle continues.

the Cuvil War was about nothing less and nothing more than Slave Power.

#120 | Posted by ichiro at 2013-03-18 08:46 AM | Reply | Flag:

"However, "state's rights" and such is not an invalid perspective. The arguments put forth my southerners is not mutually exclusive from the slavery issue."

no, JPW, it is, because it is simply a wrong argument.

#121 | Posted by ichiro at 2013-03-18 08:49 AM | Reply | Flag:

yet the struggle continues.

???

Some one posts a thread, a debate on a historical point ensues and this is indicative of that "the struggle continues"?

LOL How melodramatic.

#122 | Posted by goatman at 2013-03-18 09:06 AM | Reply | Flag:

"Another interesting thing about the article. The author makes it appear that the Civil War is constantly on southerner's minds. I never really thought about it until I read this article, but I honestly can't recall anyone really talking about the Civil War"

Really? I've never visited the south without someone calling me a "Yankee". It is always done in a 'playful' manner where I can just pretend it didn't happen. And usually I see some of the other locals rolling their eyes when it is said. So it seems to be more a situation where Southerners tolerate a vocal, backward minority who are obsessed with the war and make stupid comments about it constantly. The worst offender I've met used to bring it up in business meetings and he was a guy in North Carolina who always like to mentioned that he was originally from Texas. Although other than the "Yankee" tourettes, he was pretty much a run of the mill douche so I never considered it a "Texan" thing.

I had a history professor in college who spent a whole semester going over the run up to the civil war. Every major disagreement along North/South lines was over slavery. Then we got to the civil war and he proclaimed that "it had nothing to do with slavery". I parrotted what he said on the tests but I thought he was an idiot who couldn't connect the dots very well.

#123 | Posted by Sully at 2013-03-18 09:46 AM | Reply | Flag:

Also, on the whole "Yankee" thing - My family couldn't have cared much about it because it was too busy being desperately poor in Europe during the Civil War. The first time I was called a "Yankee", I was confused as hell.....

#124 | Posted by Sully at 2013-03-18 09:52 AM | Reply | Flag:

Really? I've never visited the south without someone calling me a "Yankee".

I've also been to the north many times and been labeled as a southerner because of my Texas accent. I can't say it has happened every time as it has to you. (that's kind of odd, actually)

But I certainly wouldn't jump to the conclusion that the people who make that distinction are obsessed with the Civil War as you have.

#125 | Posted by goatman at 2013-03-18 10:25 AM | Reply | Flag:

"But I certainly wouldn't jump to the conclusion that the people who make that distinction are obsessed with the Civil War as you have."

Its a regional distinction that carries negative connotations and it dates back to the Civil War. I don't know if they are obsessed with the Civil War but they obsessed with regional distinctions enough to be rude about it with people they just met.....

"I can't say it has happened every time as it has to you. (that's kind of odd, actually)"

I also thought so at first but when it becomes an established pattern it ceases to be odd. I did ask the one guy in NC who used the word conspicuously about it during a work dinner and he didn't have much to say other than it was just in fun. But once the subject was raised, the others at the table (around 5 other people) started telling stories about other "conspicuous southerners" they knew in non-flattering sort of way. Seemed to me like everyone but the the one guy thought this kind of behavior was stupid. So its not a majority but if you're down south long enough to come in contact with 20 people and you're obviously from a norhern state, the odds are very good that you'll find one person who will use the word Yankee.

#126 | Posted by Sully at 2013-03-18 10:43 AM | Reply | Flag:

" In the first paragraph he states that the Cinco de Mayo is the celebration of the battle of Puebla. Wrong. It is true the battle of Puebla was fought on that day, but the celebration is a celebration of Mexican culture "heritage and pride", not that battle."

Yeah, and they just coincidentally chose that particular day. Riiight. Celebrations evolve over time but the original Cinco de Mayo was a celebration of that victory.

#127 | Posted by danni at 2013-03-18 10:51 AM | Reply | Flag:

I also thought so at first but when it becomes an established pattern it ceases to be odd.

I think it's human nature. Maybe I'm naive, but I never considered it odd* when I'm up north and someone slaps a "southerner" label on me because of my Texas accent. Should I?

*Actually, I do think it's a little odd that they don't know the difference between a Southern accent (which I don't have) and a Southwestern/Texan accent (which I definitely have). I guess if I dwelled on it, I would consider that a sign of ignorance, but having my accent noted and erroneously being labeled as a southerner really isn't that big of a deal to me.

#128 | Posted by goatman at 2013-03-18 10:52 AM | Reply | Flag:

" If politicians on both sides spent as much time planning how to tackle social and fiscal issues as they do voting blocks I might not be so concerned with our future."

If football teams spent less time trying to beat the other side and more time being friendly and nice to the other side there would be far fewer injuries in football.

#129 | Posted by danni at 2013-03-18 10:53 AM | Reply | Flag:

Yeah, and they just coincidentally chose that particular day

No, it wasn't. That doesn't mean they are celebrating the event as I noted.

Cinco de Mayo was a celebration of that victory

You are right. "Was". Not "is", except in the state of Puebla.

It originated with Mexican-American communities in the American West as a way to commemorate the cause of freedom and democracy during the first years of the American Civil War,[8][9] and today the date is observed in the United States as a celebration of Mexican heritage and pride.[10]
Honestly, danni. I live here 2.5 hours from the border amidst an Hispanic minority. Please don't pretend to tell me "how it is" here and I won't tell you about the Cuban culture in Miami. Deal?

#130 | Posted by goatman at 2013-03-18 10:57 AM | Reply | Flag:

Honestly, danni. I live here 2.5 hours from the border amidst an Hispanic majority

(not minority. Sorry)

#131 | Posted by goatman at 2013-03-18 10:58 AM | Reply | Flag:

"Please don't pretend to tell me "how it is" here and I won't tell you about the Cuban culture in Miami. Deal?"

Not trying to tell you how it is but to say that Cinco De Mayo wasn't a celbration of that vicotry, I just couldn't resist.

#132 | Posted by danni at 2013-03-18 11:07 AM | Reply | Flag:

William Tecumseh Sherman was the man! He pounded Georgia and South Carolina into oblivion...South Carolina especially so because "they started the whole damn thing". Sherman easily could have run for President, but had no desire to get into Politics. He continued on in the military for the remainder of his life. Sherman met Lincoln in 1861 and was underwhelmed. 4 years later, he spoke of Lincoln in almost god like admiration. If have never watched Ken Burns Civil War, it is well worth the $ 30-35 download from ITunes.

#133 | Posted by CaseyJones at 2013-03-18 11:10 AM | Reply | Flag:

The one thing I have learned is that you don't engage in Civil War related threads on the Retort. Both the North and the South today are equal in the guilt in trying to rewrite the history of the time and there is no actual discussion to be had.

#134 | Posted by kanrei at 2013-03-18 11:13 AM | Reply | Flag:

Not trying to tell you how it is but to say that Cinco De Mayo wasn't a celbration of that vicotry, I just couldn't resist.

I never said it wasn't. I said it isn't.

Please do not put words into my mouth or change the verb tense from the one I used. I used the present tense for a reason.

#135 | Posted by goatman at 2013-03-18 11:18 AM | Reply | Flag:

As to the article...

It was over State's Rights; to some, it was general state's rights and to others it was one specific right they felt they had which was to choose to be a free or slave state.

Just like the drone debate today where some fight against drone use and others use it as an excuse to attack Obama, so too did some fight for legitimate state's rights while others hid being state's rights to defend owning slaves.

Congratulations, you are all right and sorry, but you are all also wrong.

#136 | Posted by kanrei at 2013-03-18 11:23 AM | Reply | Flag:

Follow-up to post #136

See, the term "State's Rights" is both right and wrong as the 10th Amendment does clearly define all things not covered in the Constitution to be the realm of the state. Therefore, when one says "State's Rights," one must then ask "state's right to do what?" Somethings are a state's right and others are not.

#137 | Posted by kanrei at 2013-03-18 11:31 AM | Reply | Flag:

"I think it's human nature. Maybe I'm naive, but I never considered it odd* when I'm up north and someone slaps a "southerner" label on me because of my Texas accent. Should I?"

No, I don't think its odd when I'm down south and people ask me where I'm from. Or if they guess at where I'm from. Not the same thing as using the word "Yankee" especially in the context they use it. I would think its odd if you were in a nothern state and someone heard your accent and made a non-flattering comment base on the accent. Not "odd" as in totally unexpected but odd in the way you find any unncessarily rude behavior odd.

#138 | Posted by Sully at 2013-03-18 11:32 AM | Reply | Flag:

"It was over State's Rights"

Yeah, the right of slave states to continue slavery and even force those who lived in free states help them by returning run away slaves. With the election of Lincoln following the decision to allow Kansas to decide by vote whether it would enter the union as free or slave, thereby upsetting the balance between free and slave states the South believed they had lost the battle and decided, state by state, to secede. It was always about slavery, the importance of states' rights was only important in relation to slavery.

#139 | Posted by danni at 2013-03-18 11:37 AM | Reply | Flag:

#139 | Posted by danni at 2013-03-18 11:37 AM

Trying reading beyond my first few words. See all that text behind what you quoted? That was my thought. What you quoted is removed of all context and therefore NOT AT ALL WHAT I WAS SAYING.

#140 | Posted by kanrei at 2013-03-18 11:39 AM | Reply | Flag:

Being born and raised in northern Alabama, I have some great stories on how we were taught to view the Civil War. For instance, anyone else ever been to a secession ball?

My maternal great-great-grandfather was George Houston-- the governor of Alabama during reconstruction. My grandfather's middle name was Semmes-- after the captain of the CSS Alabama. And his father's was too. My grandfather and great-grandfather's initials were CSA-- that wasn't by accident!

We are from the northern part of the state, which is a bit less redneck than the rest of the state-- you even find some union loyalists up there, but there still is a great bit of aggravation in my family-- to this day.

I'm glad I don't live there any more, but if I hear the word "Alabama" it still makes my heart jump-- it's too much in my blood and that will never go away.

#141 | Posted by kamakiri at 2013-03-18 11:49 AM | Reply | Flag:


"It was over State's Rights"
Yeah, the right of slave states to continue slavery and even force those who lived in free states help them by returning run away slaves. With the election of Lincoln following the decision to allow Kansas to decide by vote whether it would enter the union as free or slave, thereby upsetting the balance between free and slave states the South believed they had lost the battle and decided, state by state, to secede. It was always about slavery, the importance of states' rights was only important in relation to slavery.
#139 | Posted by danni

Danni,

How do you explain the American textile industry buying cotten from countries that had slavery? The cotten they were buying was grown and processed by slaves!

Can you please explain this hypocrisy?

#142 | Posted by RonPaul at 2013-03-18 12:31 PM | Reply | Flag:

Danni,

Just in case you're not following, the textile industry was primarily in the North.

#143 | Posted by RonPaul at 2013-03-18 12:38 PM | Reply | Flag:

"Danni,
How do you explain the American textile industry buying cotten from countries that had slavery? The cotten they were buying was grown and processed by slaves!"

It was much like today's corporations buying manufactured goods from Chhinese companies where employees are virtual slaves. The guy who got the 47% statement by Mitt Romney on tape decided he wanted to expose Romney not because of that comment so much, more because of Romney's comments about a Chinese factory he visited which had razor ware surrounding it, employees too fearful to even look up when the Romney group passed through. Mitt thought it was marvelous, the bar tender who taped him thought Americans ought to hear those comments so they would know the real Mitt Romney.

#144 | Posted by danni at 2013-03-18 12:39 PM | Reply | Flag:

Just in case you're not following, the textile industry was primarily in the North.
POSTED BY RONPAUL AT 2013-03-18 12:38 PM |

I once heard a theory, but never followed up on it, that had the South become its own nation, the largely industrial North would have had to import the vast majority of its food, and the possible tariffs imposed by the South would cost far too much.

The South, on the other hand, would be able to import its industrial goods from any nation it pleased with better treaties than those that favored the North.

Just a theory and again, I have not explored it.

#145 | Posted by kanrei at 2013-03-18 12:40 PM | Reply | Flag:

#144 | Posted by danni

Nice moving of the goalposts, but you unwittingly supported my point.

Why didn't the Republicans in the North support the Southern States to retool? The Southerners in Congress put this on the table, but the Northerners didn't really care.

The hypocrisy is that they say they are anti-slavery (Lincoln included), but they are unwilling to take sacrifices to stop it in this country and bought product produced by slaves in other countries.

Again! How do you explain the hypocrisy?

You are behind the eight-ball on the State's rights issue.

#146 | Posted by RonPaul at 2013-03-18 12:50 PM | Reply | Flag:

Does anyone want to answer to this hypocrisy and this bogus article?

Doc? You ready to admit it?

#147 | Posted by RonPaul at 2013-03-18 01:21 PM | Reply | Flag:

didn't think so.

#148 | Posted by RonPaul at 2013-03-18 01:21 PM | Reply | Flag:

"Can you please explain this hypocrisy?"

You want to talk hypocrisy?

How about pushing for federal "fugitive slave laws" and then turning around and whining about "states rights"?

The South back then cared way more about slavery than states' rights. They didn't support the right of any state to not recognize slavery.

#149 | Posted by sully at 2013-03-18 02:12 PM | Reply | Flag:

Just more deflection.

didn't think anyone could answer the question.

Answer the question and then we can move on to your argument.

#150 | Posted by RonPaul at 2013-03-18 02:15 PM | Reply | Flag:


didn't think so.
#148 | Posted by RonPaul

I knew this would shut you guys up.

#151 | Posted by RonPaul at 2013-03-18 02:16 PM | Reply | Flag:

The South back then cared way more about slavery than states' rights. They didn't support the right of any state to not recognize slavery.
#149 | Posted by sully

Try thinking the way the common man thought at that time.

Be careful how you judge people.

#152 | Posted by RonPaul at 2013-03-18 02:35 PM | Reply | Flag:

"Try thinking the way the common man thought at that time."

Oh, the people who ran the Conderacy told the little guy that they were fighting for States' Rights. "Why should someone up North be able to tell us what we can do?" They weren't going to get these suckers to waste their lives fighting over slavery when most of them couldn't afford slaves.

But regardless of what the rubes believed, the people who ran the Conderacy seceded over slavery and the suckers who fought for the Condereacy were fighting to preserve slavery. To the Southern ruling class, it was the only issue worth that risk.

#153 | Posted by Sully at 2013-03-18 02:43 PM | Reply | Flag:

"Be careful how you judge people."

I judge slave owners and evil bastards and the people who fought for them as useful idiots.

#154 | Posted by Sully at 2013-03-18 02:44 PM | Reply | Flag:

Oh, the people who ran the Conderacy told the little guy that they were fighting for States' Rights. "Why should someone up North be able to tell us what we can do?" They weren't going to get these suckers to waste their lives fighting over slavery when most of them couldn't afford slaves.

This was a war of economics. The little guy would have starved is the land owners lost their business.

Please follow the argument.

#155 | Posted by RonPaul at 2013-03-18 02:47 PM | Reply | Flag:

But regardless of what the rubes believed, the people who ran the Conderacy seceded over slavery and the suckers who fought for the Condereacy were fighting to preserve slavery. To the Southern ruling class, it was the only issue worth that risk.
#153 | Posted by Sully

Slavery was a dying institution because of technological advancements. Southern Land owners knew this and knew that the end of Slavery would happen perhaps in 30 years or less.

Southern land owners were prepaired to retool, but not all of a sudden. Southerners also had the burden of retraining freed slaves in living on their own. These two issues alone would take one or two generations to accomplish.

The Northern Congressmen refused to cooperate.

The only fact remaining is that the North didn't care if there was slavery or not. They had nothing to gain or lose and did nothing to promote the end of slavery.

#156 | Posted by RonPaul at 2013-03-18 02:53 PM | Reply | Flag:

"The little guy would have starved is the land owners lost their business."

They wouldn't have had to compete with people who were using slave labor. Always a good thing..... They didn't starve after the war either.

"Please follow the argument."

But its demonstrably false. Slavery was abolished and they didn't starve.

#157 | Posted by Sully at 2013-03-18 02:54 PM | Reply | Flag:


"Be careful how you judge people."

I judge slave owners and evil bastards and the people who fought for them as useful idiots.

#154 | Posted by Sully

Wrong!

Even the most poor/uneducated Southern knew for a fact that they would starve if their state remained part of the US. They would be forced to move North to work in the Textile mills or suffer through decades of debt that the retooling would force them into. There would be no money for wages because they would be competing with nations that still had slavery and were not forced to retool.

You are not thinking with knowledge of the times.

#158 | Posted by RonPaul at 2013-03-18 02:57 PM | Reply | Flag:

"The only fact remaining is that the North didn't care if there was slavery or not. They had nothing to gain or lose and did nothing to promote the end of slavery."

For the North, the war was about preventing secession.

Yes, if the South never seceded then the North would not have gone to war over slavery. What sparked the war was secssion. Was drove the South to secede was preservation of slavery.

That the South wanted the North to pay them to off to clean up their own mess doesn't make the South the honorable party. "They were going to live, end slavery within 50 years if someone gave them money to do it and asked reallly nicely...." Whatever.

#159 | Posted by Sully at 2013-03-18 02:58 PM | Reply | Flag:

They didn't starve after the war either.
#157 | Posted by Sully

Uh... Really?

#160 | Posted by RonPaul at 2013-03-18 02:58 PM | Reply | Flag:

"Even the most poor/uneducated Southern knew for a fact that they would starve if their state remained part of the US."

Except that happened and they didn't starve so you are proven wrong no matter how many times you force me to point out that your ramblings don't match with historical reality.

#161 | Posted by Sully at 2013-03-18 03:01 PM | Reply | Flag:

That the South wanted the North to pay them to off to clean up their own mess doesn't make the South the honorable party. "They were going to live, end slavery within 50 years if someone gave them money to do it and asked reallly nicely...." Whatever.
#159 | Posted by Sully

Again. How can you explain the hypocrisy of the North?

They imported from countries that still had slavery and shunned the South for still having slavery.

Your argument is avoiding this hypocrisy.

#162 | Posted by RonPaul at 2013-03-18 03:01 PM | Reply | Flag:

From my perspective, a southern one, my ancestors weren't past subsistence farming until the turn of the 20th century. They could barely read or write, but they did think about the issues going on around them. Party and politics were controlled by plantation owners in the south, who held many slaves, and who were looked at as a competitor of sorts with the struggling white farmers who didn't own slaves and were looking to at least someday make a profit on what they grew. Many farmers who thought about abolishment of slavery being good for their future as prosperous farmers quickly fell victim to the mechanations of the plantation owners who successfully convinced them that the north was looking to usurp the southerner's state rights and representation in government. This angle was brought to fruition by the rise of the Republican party in the late 1850's and the election of Abe Lincoln, who wasn't even on the ballot in many southern states.

The white farmers of this era weren't stupid, they just didn't have enough time to worry about such matters when their very survival meant constant farm work.

My grandfather always said that it was a Catholic vs Protestant war, which I always felt to be an intriguing opinion. He said that the immigrants who came to this country in the 1840s and afterward were mostly catholics who settled in the north. The growing Catholic demographic influenced thought and gave impetus to the changing of the guard in the north-- their sentiment was largely pro-abolitionist.

#163 | Posted by kamakiri at 2013-03-18 03:03 PM | Reply | Flag:

"Again. How can you explain the hypocrisy of the North?

They imported from countries that still had slavery and shunned the South for still having slavery.

Your argument is avoiding this hypocrisy."

We import stuff built by people who are little more than slaves now but don't allow such treatment of people here. Whether that is hypocritical or not doesn't change anything: The people who ran the Confederacy seceded over slavery. The North only fought to end secession.

#164 | Posted by Sully at 2013-03-18 03:10 PM | Reply | Flag:

Whether that is hypocritical or not doesn't change anything: The people who ran the Confederacy seceded over slavery. The North only fought to end secession.
#164 | Posted by Sully

I disagree.

Slavery was an issue of the day, but hardly a reason for the North to dare the South into seceding. I suggest you go back and study the issues surrounding Andrew Jackson's time since most of the reasons, from that time, for secession were still alive and well. And be a thinker rather than a hater. Read up on other opinions rather than those that supports your hate.

The Southern States were much better off as a seperate nation at the time.

#165 | Posted by RonPaul at 2013-03-18 03:19 PM | Reply | Flag:

Ron Paul,

Which countries did the North import cotton from? The south?

#166 | Posted by CaseyJones at 2013-03-18 03:19 PM | Reply | Flag:


Ron Paul,
Which countries did the North import cotton from? The south?
#166 | Posted by CaseyJones

Yes. LOL!! The South was a separate country.

Are you serious?

#167 | Posted by RonPaul at 2013-03-18 03:29 PM | Reply | Flag:

"Again. How can you explain the hypocrisy of the North?"

Did someone accuse the North of being moral? The South felt the institution of slavery threatened but in fact it wasn't except that the South felt that the election of Lincoln created a threat. I don't think he was going to immediately liberate the slaves but S. Carolina seceded and started the ball rolling. Then Lincoln just tried to hold the union together, if you recall, the Emancipation Proclamation was actually a punishment for ther rebelling states, it wasn't done out of pure moral thought.

"On September 22, 1862, Lincoln had issued a preliminary proclamation that he would order the emancipation of all slaves in any state of the Confederate States of America that did not return to Union control by January 1, 1863. None returned, and the order, signed and issued January 1, 1863, took effect except in locations where the Union had already mostly regained control. The Proclamation outraged white Southerners who envisioned a race war, angered some Northern Democrats, energized anti-slavery forces, and weakened forces in Europe that wanted to intervene to help the Confederacy.[2] It also lifted the spirits of African Americans both in the Southern and Northern States, and led to many slaves escaping their masters and running behind Union lines in order to have their emancipation enforced."

en.wikipedia.org

#168 | Posted by danni at 2013-03-18 03:29 PM | Reply | Flag:

"The Southern States were much better off as a seperate nation at the time."

Except for those 4 million slaves.

#169 | Posted by danni at 2013-03-18 03:31 PM | Reply | Flag:

RP : "You are not thinking with knowledge of the times."

...apparently, RP accomplishes this by using a authentic confederate brain perserved in moonshine and pickle juice...

...LOL...

#170 | Posted by 1EyedMan at 2013-03-18 03:41 PM | Reply | Flag:

"Slavery was an issue of the day, but hardly a reason for the North to dare the South into seceding. I suggest you go back and study the issues surrounding Andrew Jackson's time since most of the reasons, from that time, for secession were still alive and well. And be a thinker rather than a hater. Read up on other opinions rather than those that supports your hate."

All the major debates leading up the civil war were slavery related. Take any American History course that covers this era and you will spend 80% of the time talking about slavery related debates.

You're "be a thinker not a hater" stuff is inane blather. If you're going to refer to these "issues" that were not slavery related then tell us what they are instead of just hinting they exist. So far, all you've said is that the South was ill prepeared to transition away from slavery. That's a slavery related issue.

If you can't identify the non-slavery related reason for secession then you and I are in the same boat.

#171 | Posted by Sully at 2013-03-18 03:43 PM | Reply | Flag:

All the major debates leading up the civil war were slavery related. Take any American History course that covers this era and you will spend 80% of the time talking about slavery related debates.

Wait. You mean read a history book that was written by the victor?

Time to think outside the box, there, Sully.

80% of the debates? Really?

Coming from someone who doesn't know what the period of Reconstruction was.

Do you know anything about American History from 1820 to 1860?

#172 | Posted by RonPaul at 2013-03-18 03:48 PM | Reply | Flag:

If you can't identify the non-slavery related reason for secession then you and I are in the same boat.
#171 | Posted by Sully

uuuugghghhh!

You aren't paying attention.

Tariff policy, Economic.

The South was much better off as a separate country at that time.

#173 | Posted by RonPaul at 2013-03-18 03:51 PM | Reply | Flag:

The South, mainly comprised of Tea Party Republicants, has an abysmal understanding of history.

It's no wonder they lie about the Civil War since they were all home schooled by the losing side of the war.

They have shown time and time again, when history doesn't support you, change what history books say.

Too bad the rest of us wont allow them to recreate history in order to suite themselves.

Otherwise we'd all be learning that Dinosaurs and humans lived at the same time, that Paul Revere was warning the British the Americans were coming, and that the Founding fathers established America in order to free the slaves.

The drunken history thats bleated out by these know nothings is embarrassing to read. Sunday schools and religion based home schooling do not an education make.

#174 | Posted by ClownShack at 2013-03-18 04:05 PM | Reply | Flag:

You stated that the North imported cotton from countries that supported slavery? I asked what countries they imported from. What slave countries did they trade with? Plural...as you stated earlier

Speculators & greedy businessmen were the primary drivers of the trade between the North-South. Much like today's commodities traders.

"The money, after all, was very good. By the fall of 1862 a combination of an initial Southern embargo and a tightening Federal naval blockade created a scarcity that inflated cotton prices. Behind Confederate lines the staple could be purchased at 10 cents a pound, but was worth 70 cents or more in Northern or overseas markets. Given that differential, efforts to prevent North-South trade were as ineffective King Canute's orders to hold back the waves."

I don't quite get your "hypocritical" argument that you seem to be trying to make. Union speculators purchased cotton and re-sold it overseas since the conferecy couldn't trade with Europe. You call it hypocritical, I call it opportunistic. Lincoln couldn't stop it. All the matters is the end result. Your confederates got pummeled, fighting for a lost cause, losing the right to own slaves & ultimately falling back into line. I thought relics like you were all dead. Are you really Jim DeMint from S. Carolina?

#176 | Posted by CaseyJones at 2013-03-18 04:08 PM | Reply | Flag:

The South was a separate country.
Are you serious?
#167 | POSTED BY RONPAUL AT 2013-03-18 03:29 PM

Are you ever correct about anything?

... [the South] fails to derive a sense of nationhood strong enough to allow the South to declare its independence during and especially after the war.
David Potter, eminent historian on the Civil War, deals with southern nationalism in his work: The South and the Sectional Conflict. Potter makes the point, as many have, that the South if it had its own Nation, certainly did not have a very strong one, he argues that Southerners were never able to do away with their own loyalties to America, let alone establish new ones for a southern nation, writing:
"The readiness with which the South returned to the Union will defy explanation unless it is recognized that southern loyalties to the union were never really obliterated but rather were eclipsed by other loyalties with which for a time they conflicted."
www.civilwarhome.com

#177 | Posted by ClownShack at 2013-03-18 04:13 PM | Reply | Flag:

"Tariff policy, Economic."

Tariff policy was bigger than slavery? We'll just take your word for it with zero explanation? Pffffft.

#179 | Posted by Sully at 2013-03-18 04:16 PM | Reply | Flag:

#176 | Posted by CaseyJones

Caribbean countries exported cotten and sugarcane and still had slaves.

#180 | Posted by RonPaul at 2013-03-18 04:17 PM | Reply | Flag:


"Tariff policy, Economic."

Tariff policy was bigger than slavery? We'll just take your word for it with zero explanation? Pffffft.

#179 | Posted by Sully

Sure. You want me to accept that 80% of the reason for secession was over Slavery. This was created by revisionists.

Who writes the history books after a war? The loser?

#181 | Posted by RonPaul at 2013-03-18 04:20 PM | Reply | Flag:


"Tariff policy, Economic."
Tariff policy was bigger than slavery? We'll just take your word for it with zero explanation? Pffffft.

#179 | Posted by Sully

Sully. You're a smart guy, but lazy and someimes hateful. You have contempt for Conservative White people and view them as racists and evil. I know this by reading what you write.

You are judging this issue from what is written in the history books and using your prejudice to make up your mind.

All I'm asking you to do is to stop judging the issue with contemporary thought and try and understand the thinking in 1860. For example, read Lincoln's own words on this issue. Start there.

#182 | Posted by RonPaul at 2013-03-18 04:27 PM | Reply | Flag:

#182 | Posted by RonPaul at 2013-03-18 04:27 PM | Reply |

All I'm asking you to do is to stop judging the issue with contemporary thought and try and understand the thinking in 1860. For example, read post #107

#183 | Posted by Buffalo_Bob at 2013-03-18 05:00 PM | Reply | Flag:

"Having a free [...] work force to work in factories and paying them lower wages than that of their white counterparts was..."

Not a factor of any magnitude at all.

Interesting theory, but the numbers demolish it. Here's a breakdown of the free black population in 1860:

New England - 0.8% of the total population
Mid-Atlantic - 1.8%
Midwest - 0.8%
Far West - 1.1%
Upper South - 3.1%
Lower South - 1.1%
www.bowdoin.edu

There was certainly tension in emerging areas like Kansas over the possibility of relatively cheap slave labor undercutting free labor, but the theory you've proposed here doesn't seem to hold water.

#185 | Posted by Doc_Sarvis at 2013-03-18 05:29 PM | Reply | Flag:

"The Southern States were much better off as a seperate nation at the time."

Somebody's been reading too much of that DiLorenzo crap.

.

#186 | Posted by Dave at 2013-03-18 05:34 PM | Reply | Flag:

It's about economics.

#184 | Posted by RonPaul at 2013-03-18 05:14 PM | Reply | Flag

It is about economics. The south wanted slaves and were willing to fight for the right to own slaves. The Civil War was all about the right to own slaves---as shown in post #107---the words of the South in the 1860's. You should understand history. The Civil War was fought because of the Institution of slavery---the States Rights rewriting of the cause of the Civil War is simply not true---as shown by their own words written at the time and shown in post #107.

#187 | Posted by Buffalo_Bob at 2013-03-18 05:34 PM | Reply | Flag:

It is about economics. The south wanted slaves and were willing to fight for the right to own slaves. The Civil War was all about the right to own slaves---as shown in post #107---the words of the South in the 1860's. You should understand history. The Civil War was fought because of the Institution of slavery---the States Rights rewriting of the cause of the Civil War is simply not true---as shown by their own words written at the time and shown in post #107.

#187 | Posted by Buffalo_Bob

You obviously haven't been reading the thread.

Let me correct you on something. The war wasn't fought over the right to own slaves, but the right to keep the investment.

I'm asking you to use 1860 conventional thinking before passing judgement.

The war was all about power in the Federal Government and distribution of wealth.

There were many issues leading up to the war and Slavery was the flash point.

#189 | Posted by RonPaul at 2013-03-18 05:43 PM | Reply | Flag:

All you have to do is read the various declaration of causes of secession. The South tells you what it was about in their own words.
#107 | Posted by Jasper

Absolutely, as Buffalo Bob points out in #187.

Of course, such a clear view of what was going on does not comport well with the ex post facto birth of the Lost Cause Mythology that's found great favor in the South and among others who for reasons surpassing reason find the stuff of romance in the mess the South created by choosing war.

I am hardly able to think about the Civil War without recalling a telling bit of exposition in the film "Gone with the Wind" (written decades after the fact but dead-on reflective of a certain stupidly stubborn mindset prevalent at the time):

Mr. O'HARA: Now gentlemen, Mr. Butler has been up North I hear.

Don't you agree with us, Mr. Butler?

RHETT BUTLER : I think it's hard winning a war with words, gentlemen.

CHARLES: What do you mean, sir?

RHETT: I mean, Mr. Hamilton, there's not a cannon factory in the whole South.

MAN: What difference does that make, sir, to a gentleman?

RHETT: I'm afraid it's going to make a great deal of difference to a

great many gentlemen, sir.

CHARLES: Are you hinting, Mr. Butler,

that the Yankees can lick us?

RHETT: No, I'm not hinting. I'm saying very plainly that the Yankees

are better equipped than we. They've got

factories, shipyards, coalmines... and a fleet to bottle up

our harbors and starve us to death. All we've got is cotton,

and slaves and ...arrogance.

MAN: That's treacherous!

CHARLES: I refuse to listen to any renegade talk!

RHETT: Well, I'm sorry if the truth offends you.
www.scarlettonline.com


#190 | Posted by Doc_Sarvis at 2013-03-18 05:46 PM | Reply | Flag:

#190 | Posted by Doc_Sarvis

Populism!

Why wouldn't you ever go out with me in school?
You always went out with those guys
Who thought they were so cool.
And I was just nobody to you,
Nobody to you, nobody to you.

But it's the early 19th century
And we're gonna take this country back
From people like us who don't just think about things
People who make things happen.
Sometimes with guns
Sometimes with speeches too.
And also other things.

Populism, Yea Yea
Populism, Yea Yea
Populism, Yea Yea
Populism, Yea Yea

This is the age of
This is the age of,
This is the age of Jackson

Take a stand against the elite [Sigh]
They don't care anything for us
And we will eat sweet democracy
And let them eat our dust,
Eat our dust, eat our dust

Cause it's the early 19th century
We'll take the land back from the indians
We'll take the land back from the French and Spanish
And other people in other European countries
And other countries too
And also other places
I'm pretty sure it's our land anyway

Populism, Yea Yea
Populism, Yea Yea
Populism, Yea Yea
Populism, Yea Yea

This is the age of Jackson
This is the age of Jackson
This is the age of Jackson
This is the age of Jackson

This is the age of,
This is the age of Jackson

#192 | Posted by RonPaul at 2013-03-18 05:50 PM | Reply | Flag:

"Sully. You're a smart guy, but lazy and someimes hateful. You have contempt for Conservative White people and view them as racists and evil. I know this by reading what you write."

This is utter drivel. I am a white guy and I'm certainly not contemptful of white people. I don't think "conservative" and "liberal" even mean anything anymore and have been accused of being both on this site. If this is what you think you know about me, then you're, quite frankly, an idiot.

Not only that, but my ancestors were not in the US when the civil war was fought. I have no need to believe the North was good and South was evil. I believe the average Confederate soldier was a sucker and the average Union soldier was a conscript.

"You are judging this issue from what is written in the history books and using your prejudice to make up your mind. "

Is it based on history books or prejudce? Can't be both. I've asked you to state your opposing viewpoing and all you can come up with is one or two words at a time or an irrelevant attack on me. You can't claim I am prejudiced for not agreeing with your position when you repeatedly fail to tell me what it is.

"All I'm asking you to do is to stop judging the issue with contemporary thought and try and understand the thinking in 1860. For example, read Lincoln's own words on this issue. Start there."

Why can't you just tell me what the Civil war was about for Southerners without resorting to a one or two word answer? If you can't state your own position, I have to assume you don't really have one.

And look at what you wrote to Bob: "The war wasn't fought over the right to own slaves, but the right to keep the investment."

What did they invest their money into? Slaves. The investment you ar referring to is slaves. So you're saying "It wasn't about the right to own slaves but the right to keep the (slaves)."

How does that even make sense?

#193 | Posted by Sully at 2013-03-18 05:52 PM | Reply | Flag:

There was certainly tension in emerging areas like Kansas over the possibility of relatively cheap slave labor undercutting free labor, but the theory you've proposed here doesn't seem to hold water.

#185 | Posted by Doc_Sarvis

My theory does hold water if you understand that I was saying all blacks, freed and slaves.

If you consider those numbers, it's close to 50/50 in the South

www.civilwarhome.com

#194 | Posted by RonPaul at 2013-03-18 05:53 PM | Reply | Flag:

#190 -- I don't agree fully with the FA, but I do agree with the GWTW lines. Even the first time I saw the movie they wasn't lost on me.

#195 | Posted by goatman at 2013-03-18 05:55 PM | Reply | Flag:

You obviously haven't been reading the thread.

#189 | Posted by RonPaul at 2013-03-18 05:43 PM | Reply | Flag

You obviously didn't read post #107. The war was over slavery. You can couch it in terms of "they wanted to keep the investment", but it means the same thing--slavery. The Civil War was fought over slavery. If you don't like that fact, it makes no difference. Facts are facts. The Civil War was fought over slavery. There are still disagreements over States Rights---but no talk of war. That's because the only States Right the South was willing to fight for was the right to own slaves.

#196 | Posted by Buffalo_Bob at 2013-03-18 05:55 PM | Reply | Flag:

How does that even make sense?
#193 | Posted by Sully

Sully, this arguement is not for you. You haven't the ability to think outside your hate.

#197 | Posted by RonPaul at 2013-03-18 05:56 PM | Reply | Flag:

#197 | Posted by RonPaul at 2013-03-18 05:56 PM | Reply | Flag

Sully asked a valid, logical, rational question. You failed to answer. You lose the point.

#198 | Posted by Buffalo_Bob at 2013-03-18 05:59 PM | Reply | Flag:

You obviously didn't read post #107. The war was over slavery.
#196 | Posted by Buffalo_Bob

Bob. You're as shallow as Sully, but your thinking is black and white. His is right and wrong and won't even consider the words of Lincoln himself.

Nevermind. When you can offer an argument against what I said, I'll respond.

#199 | Posted by RonPaul at 2013-03-18 06:00 PM | Reply | Flag:

Sully asked a valid, logical, rational question. You failed to answer. You lose the point.

#198 | Posted by Buffalo_Bob

No he didn't. He responded from an emotional frame of mind.

Sorry, but I need my questions answered first before we can proceed.

I answered your referrence to post #107 and it went right over your head.

#200 | Posted by RonPaul at 2013-03-18 06:02 PM | Reply | Flag:

Can either of you two understand the simple fact that slaves were a huge part of the capital that it took to run a plantation?

Asking these land owners to make that capital investment essentially worthless with a stroke of the pen was out of the question.

The Congressional Representatives in the North knew this argument and ignored it and dared the South to secede.

The South had an intense desire to secede from the North since becoming states. Study this part of history between 1820 and 1860.

#201 | Posted by RonPaul at 2013-03-18 06:07 PM | Reply | Flag:

I answered your referrence to post #107 and it went right over your head.

#200 | Posted by RonPaul at 2013-03-18 06:02 PM | Reply | Flag

There can be no answer from you to post #107. Those are the words of truth of the cause of the war.

From post #107:

Our position is thoroughly identified with the institution of slavery-- the greatest material interest of the world. Its labor supplies the product which constitutes by far the largest and most important portions of commerce of the earth.

The war was over slavery. Sully out-matched you. Those are the facts.

#202 | Posted by Buffalo_Bob at 2013-03-18 06:08 PM | Reply | Flag:

Asking these land owners to make that capital investment essentially worthless with a stroke of the pen was out of the question.

That's a good point that I've often wondered about. If the issue was simply slavery, Lincoln could have done a lot more to subsidize the cotton industry where laborers were paid or even invest in mechanized cotton picking technologies. Cotton was that big of a deal that it would have paid off and kept the union intact.

I wonder why Lincoln didn't pursue the avenue of subsidation? If the sole issue was slavery, it was a working solution. But the issues ran deeper than slavery, of course. The issue was more generally states' rights which no amout of subsidiation could address

#203 | Posted by goatman at 2013-03-18 06:14 PM | Reply | Flag:

the south claimed it was states rights the only right that was important to them was slavery-all the time they were crying about government interferance in their lives-they were telling the government to make northern states turn over runaway slavesthe fugitive slave act was an asault on northern states rights

#204 | Posted by lastomykind at 2013-03-18 06:14 PM | Reply | Flag:

The war was over slavery. Sully out-matched you. Those are the facts.
#202 | Posted by Buffalo_Bob

LOL!!!!

Whatever, BoOb!

#205 | Posted by RonPaul at 2013-03-18 06:16 PM | Reply | Flag:

the only right that was important to them was slavery

That is not correct. They also wanted more control over the cotton trade and setting tarriffs and pricing which was important since the ships that carried the cotton away came into port empty and were flying foreign flags.

#206 | Posted by goatman at 2013-03-18 06:19 PM | Reply | Flag:

"Sully, this arguement is not for you. You haven't the ability to think outside your hate."

We haven't been arguing about the civil war. I stated why I think the way I do earlier in the thread. You've been asked to do the same and refuse to do so in more than a word or two at the time.

The only argument we've really had is about whether I'm hateful and blah blah blah, which is absurd really.

This is the 2nd time a discussion with you has devolved into you saying "Answer all my questions that I will ask over and over no matter how many answers I get. But I will not answer anyone else's questions....."

In this case, the question is "What is your position?" (What is the alternative Southern motivation for secession?) And you won't even give us that.

I feel ashamed for getting dragged in a 2nd time. There won't be a 3rd.

#207 | Posted by Sully at 2013-03-18 06:19 PM | Reply | Flag:

I wonder why Lincoln didn't pursue the avenue of subsidation? If the sole issue was slavery, it was a working solution. But the issues ran deeper than slavery, of course. The issue was more generally states' rights which no amout of subsidiation could address
#203 | Posted by goatman

I agree! That kind of thinking would work today, but the idea of Federal involvement in anything that personal was also out of the question in 1860.

#208 | Posted by RonPaul at 2013-03-18 06:20 PM | Reply | Flag:

"the south claimed it was states rights the only right that was important to them was slavery-all the time they were crying about government interferance in their lives-they were telling the government to make northern states turn over runaway slavesthe fugitive slave act was an asault on northern states rights"

They didn't believe in the state's right to abolish slavery. Just in the right to protect it.

#209 | Posted by Sully at 2013-03-18 06:22 PM | Reply | Flag:

If you consider those numbers, it's close to 50/50 in the South
#194 | Posted by RonPaul

I realize you'd like your theory to hold up, but in 1860 the total population of the United States was about 31 million. Of that number, the nearly 4 million slaves in the South hardly satisfy the requirements of your statement ("Having a free [...] work force to work in factories and paying them lower wages than that of their white counterparts was...") since they weren't free. I've already shown you what an infinitesimal portion of the population in the North was comprised of free blacks.

I know it's hard for you to climb down after you stake out one of these positions, but your statement simply makes no sense.

(Ahoy! Mr. Haskell is aboard; prepare for further goalpost shifting.)

#210 | Posted by Doc_Sarvis at 2013-03-18 06:25 PM | Reply | Flag:

The issue was more generally states' rights which no amout of subsidiation could address
#203 | Posted by goatman

Simple question.

Which state rights were being challenged?

#211 | Posted by ClownShack at 2013-03-18 06:28 PM | Reply | Flag:

In this case, the question is "What is your position?" (What is the alternative Southern motivation for secession?) And you won't even give us that.
#207 | Posted by Sully

Secession had been a issue among the Southern States going back to the 1820s.

You can start here:
en.wikipedia.org

My point is that this issue didn't just come about in 1860 and it was not about Slavery until then.

#212 | Posted by RonPaul at 2013-03-18 06:29 PM | Reply | Flag:

And I agree, it had to do with the southern states feeling a challenge to their power, their authority, their ability to set their own laws, but what was it they felt they were losing?

#213 | Posted by ClownShack at 2013-03-18 06:30 PM | Reply | Flag:

#210 | Posted by Doc_Sarvis

Doc! LOL!!!

Your numbers were wrong!

My theory does hold water. Admit it.

LOL!

#214 | Posted by RonPaul at 2013-03-18 06:31 PM | Reply | Flag:

Which state rights were being challenged?

The highly contested one here, slavery, and the two I noted previously. (Did you miss those posts?)

#215 | Posted by goatman at 2013-03-18 06:33 PM | Reply | Flag:

The highly contested one here, slavery, and the two I noted previously. (Did you miss those posts?)
#215 | POSTED BY GOATMAN AT 2013-03-18 06:33 PM

I did miss the other two points as there are 215 posts on this thread and a lot of it consists of quibbling and goal post moving.

#216 | Posted by ClownShack at 2013-03-18 06:36 PM | Reply | Flag:


#210 | Posted by Doc_Sarvis
Doc! LOL!!!
Your numbers were wrong!

My theory does hold water. Admit it.

LOL!

#214 | Posted by RonPaul

To clarify, Doc, you said that the percentages of freed blacks to whites in the entire US was around 1%. You were right in saying that my theory doesn't hold water, but when I explained to you that I meant all slaves being freed, that number jumpted to 11%.

Yes, at 11%, my theory holds water.

#217 | Posted by RonPaul at 2013-03-18 06:40 PM | Reply | Flag:

Oh, BoOB....

You can't declare yourself the winner and then run away.

#218 | Posted by RonPaul at 2013-03-18 06:47 PM | Reply | Flag:

"Secession had been a issue among the Southern States going back to the 1820s."

Because they were in constant fear of having the institution of slavery ended in the US. It was ended in Brittain in 1837 (I am pretty sure), it was being preached against in the North and public opinion was turning against it. Slavery was the preeminent domestic issue since the beginning of the Republic. It had much to do with the Bill of Rights, which was a selling tool to get the Southern states to ratify the Constitution. There are some historians who will tell you that the 2nd amendment is there because Southerners wanted "miitias" with guns capable of putting down a slave rebellion.

#219 | Posted by danni at 2013-03-18 07:00 PM | Reply | Flag:

To clarify, Doc, you said that the percentages of freed blacks to whites in the entire US was around 1%. You were right in saying that my theory doesn't hold water, but when I explained to you that I meant all slaves being freed, that number jumpted to 11%.
#217 | Posted by RonPaul

With practically all of the blacks (slaves, not freed) in a virtually industrialized South?

Sorry, your theory still doesn't work.

But nice attempt at goalpost shifting, e.g., "When we add into the population of free blacks the overwhelming majority of unfree blacks and pretend they were free then free blacks amount to x percent of the population."

You've no idea how silly you sound, saying that.

The Southern elite made it clear: the slaves were not going to be freed.

You do understand that, right?

That's what the Civil War was about.

Slavery was a real Gordion Knot - composed of economic and social factors. I've never heard a coherent reason advanced for Civil War causation that didn't track back to slavery.

#220 | Posted by Doc_Sarvis at 2013-03-18 07:08 PM | Reply | Flag:

Because they were in constant fear of having the institution of slavery ended in the US

NOt exactly true, danni. The issue of slavery came to a head after cotton ginning made it much more profitable after 1830 or so and the explosion of the cotton plantations.

The invention of the cotton gin caused massive growth in the production of cotton in the United States, concentrated mostly in the South. Cotton production expanded from 750,000 bales in 1830 to 2.85 million bales in 1850. As a result, the South became even more dependent on plantations and slavery, with plantation agriculture becoming the largest sector of the Southern economy.[13] While it took a single slave about ten hours to separate a single pound of fiber from the seeds, a team of two or three slaves using a cotton gin could produce around fifty pounds of cotton in just one day.[14] The number of slaves rose in concert with the increase in cotton production, increasing from around 700,000 in 1790 to around 3.2 million in 1850.[15] By 1860, the Southern states were providing two-thirds of the world's supply of cotton, and up to 80% of the crucial British market.[16] The cotton gin thus "transformed cotton as a crop and the American South into the globe's first agricultural powerhouse, and – according to many historians – was the start of the Industrial Revolution".[1

#221 | Posted by goatman at 2013-03-18 07:10 PM | Reply | Flag:

"Secession had been a issue among the Southern States going back to the 1820s."

It was a threat, a tactic the South used to guarantee it received more political clout than it actually deserved in anything even remotely akin to a democratically-inclined political universe. (Consider, for example, the business of slaves - who could not vote - counting as 3/5 of a person for purposes of representation in the US House of Representatives.)

This isn't to say a case can't be made for secession; it can. But the issue was effectively decided between 1861-1865.

#222 | Posted by Doc_Sarvis at 2013-03-18 07:11 PM | Reply | Flag:

It seems clear that States can not secede. But---can they be kicked out?

#223 | Posted by Buffalo_Bob at 2013-03-18 07:17 PM | Reply | Flag:

220 | Posted by Doc_Sarvis

Doc,

Admit it. You misread what I wrote. You should have just left it alone or admit that you misread what I wrote.

LOL!!! You accuse me goal-post moving and then, what do you do? You move the goal posts!

BWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAAAAA!!!

Are you being a buffoon on purpose? It's really funny.

#224 | Posted by RonPaul at 2013-03-18 07:47 PM | Reply | Flag:

This isn't to say a case can't be made for secession; it can. But the issue was effectively decided between 1861-1865.
#222 | Posted by Doc_Sarvis

LOL!!!

Forget facts! There was a war!!!

LOL!!!

Those goal posts getting heavy Doc?

LOL!!!

#225 | Posted by RonPaul at 2013-03-18 07:49 PM | Reply | Flag:

Slavery was a real Gordion Knot - composed of economic and social factors. I've never heard a coherent reason advanced for Civil War causation that didn't track back to slavery.
#220 | Posted by Doc_Sarvis

When you take modern day political motivation out of it, this statement is just pure bullcrap.

You're just protecting your decision to post a bogus article.

Why would the North fight a Civil War over Slavery?

#226 | Posted by RonPaul at 2013-03-18 07:52 PM | Reply | Flag:

Why would the North fight a Civil War over Slavery?

#226 | Posted by RonPaul at 2013-03-18 07:52 PM | Reply | Flag

The North didn't fight the war over slavery. The North fought to keep the Union together. You really don't know Civil War history very well. The North didn't start the War. The South started the war, and they started the war over slavery.

#227 | Posted by Buffalo_Bob at 2013-03-18 07:57 PM | Reply | Flag:

RP: "it's wasn't slavery - it was tarrifs and economics...

...but slavery is a purely an economic issue...something something...you gotta use an authentic rebel brain pickled in moonshine along with a pretend history, or else you are just speaking from with hate and I won't answer hate filled questions 'cause that would demolish my assinine argument...."

...all of your assertions are false, you logic flawed, your knowledge of history woeful, and your fly is down...

...face it RP - you are just the pivot man in your solo circle jerk of singular stupidity...

...you LOSE

...LOL...

#228 | Posted by 1EyedMan at 2013-03-18 08:00 PM | Reply | Flag:

#219 | Posted by danni
There are some historians who will tell you that the 2nd amendment is there because Southerners wanted "miitias"[sic] with guns capable of putting down a slave rebellion.

Surely something that historically important would be brought forth when the Supreme Court recently considered the Second Amendment. Here is the docket sheet for D.C. v. Heller and here is the docket sheet for McDonald v. Chicago. You can go through the main and amicus briefs and cite where that important historical fact was presented to the Court. Until you come up with more than your cryptic declaration, I call bovine feces.

#229 | Posted by et_al at 2013-03-18 08:14 PM | Reply | Flag:

#223 | Posted by Buffalo_Bob
It seems clear that States can not secede. But---can they be kicked out?

What, something like the DR three dumps and you're out of here rule?

;)

#230 | Posted by et_al at 2013-03-18 08:20 PM | Reply | Flag:

"I call bovine feces."

"The Second Amendment was Ratified to Preserve Slavery"

truth-out.org

I don't claim that it's necessarily the real truth but it make logical sense while very little of the other explanations do.

#231 | Posted by danni at 2013-03-18 08:35 PM | Reply | Flag:

Oh, and notice how I can post without being condescending or insulting, perhaps you can learn.

#232 | Posted by danni at 2013-03-18 08:36 PM | Reply | Flag:

Danni - you patience is astounding...

...I salute you - for I do not posess such...

...LOL...

#233 | Posted by 1EyedMan at 2013-03-18 08:45 PM | Reply | Flag:

You really don't know Civil War history very well.
#227 | Posted by Buffalo_Bob

LOL

keep it shallow, BoOB!

Perhaps you should re-read the last 50 posts and think outside the box.

#234 | Posted by RonPaul at 2013-03-18 08:45 PM | Reply | Flag:

...you LOSE
#228 | Posted by 1EyedMan

Wow!

If you have to declare victory, you probably aren't very confident about your own arguement.

#235 | Posted by RonPaul at 2013-03-18 08:49 PM | Reply | Flag:

Oh, and notice how I can post without being condescending or insulting,

I have to admit you are very good and consistent on that point, danni.

#236 | Posted by goatman at 2013-03-18 08:49 PM | Reply | Flag:

...I salute you - for I do not posess such...
#233 | Posted by 1EyedMan

From the posts you've been making, no one gives a...

#237 | Posted by RonPaul at 2013-03-18 08:56 PM | Reply | Flag:

Every state that left the Union wrote it's own declaration of independence.

It's not hard to find these and the political leaders in that state list all the reasons they were willing to admit they were leaving and I'm willing to bet most of these lists were in descending order of importance.

And it's not like the confederates were all monsters.

They served for just about as many reasons as Americans served in Vietnam.

Truman, Carter, Nelson none of them are ashamed of their ancestry.

Chattel slavery is a horrible thing but that doesn't mean all confederates were.

Is it that complex a matter?

really?

#238 | Posted by Tor at 2013-03-18 08:56 PM | Reply | Flag:

Every state that left the Union wrote it's own declaration of independence.

It's not hard to find these and the political leaders in that state list all the reasons they were willing to admit they were leaving and I'm willing to bet most of these lists were in descending order of importance.

And it's not like the confederates were all monsters.

They served for just about as many reasons as Americans served in Vietnam.

Truman, Carter, Nelson none of them are ashamed of their ancestry.

Chattel slavery is a horrible thing but that doesn't mean all confederates were.

Is it that complex a matter?

really?

#239 | Posted by Tor at 2013-03-18 08:56 PM | Reply | Flag:


Oh, and notice how I can post without being condescending or insulting, perhaps you can learn.
#232 | Posted by danni

Ok. This one made me laugh out loud.

#240 | Posted by RonPaul at 2013-03-18 08:57 PM | Reply | Flag:

Thank you Goatman. We'll still do verbal combat though and I will defeat you!

#241 | Posted by danni at 2013-03-18 08:58 PM | Reply | Flag:

RP - you can tell yourself any lie that makes life bearable within that tiny little mind of yours...

...but, seriously, you just got your asss handed to you repeatedly and consistently...

...but you will not realize it because you are not capable of thinking in the context of 2013...

...LOL...

#242 | Posted by 1EyedMan at 2013-03-18 08:58 PM | Reply | Flag:

"Ok. This one made me laugh out loud."

Short timer, I think. Sort of funny actually.

#243 | Posted by danni at 2013-03-18 08:59 PM | Reply | Flag:

RP: "From the posts you've been making, no one gives a... "

...except maybe those replying to them, like...say...RONPAUL for instance...

..but you're right - he is NO ONE...

...LOL...

#244 | Posted by 1EyedMan at 2013-03-18 09:01 PM | Reply | Flag:

#241. Dream on!

#245 | Posted by goatman at 2013-03-18 09:02 PM | Reply | Flag:

#242 | Posted by 1EyedMan

Are you new here or do you constantly change your name because you get booted so often?

#246 | Posted by RonPaul at 2013-03-18 09:03 PM | Reply | Flag:

goatman no slaves no profit in cotton trade

#247 | Posted by lastomykind at 2013-03-18 09:16 PM | Reply | Flag:

no slaves = less profit in cotton trade

there's still profit, just not as much since they don't have the slave labor force.

think more of mexicans picking strawberries. There still a profit being made by the farmer, just not as much as if he wasn't paying them.

#248 | Posted by ClownShack at 2013-03-18 09:24 PM | Reply | Flag:

the southern states were royal grants given by the king to his cronies-they remained loyal to him for most of the revolution-since they were developed by and for the upper classes of england they thought they should be in control of the us-the north was first developed by people seeking religous freedom -the north might not have had any great love for blacks but they had a different concept of freedom than the south-the south tried to promote the idea that whites were the only true humans the north recognized the humanity of the slaves

#249 | Posted by lastomykind at 2013-03-18 09:30 PM | Reply | Flag:

You can go through the main and amicus briefs and cite where that important historical fact was presented to the Court.

What you won't find when you do that:
Important historical facts not presented to the Court.

#250 | Posted by snoofy at 2013-03-18 09:40 PM | Reply | Flag:

Northguy: sorry for running off work and all.

However you seem to indicate that I and other Republicsns still hold the same views as the 71+ year old voters of the 60's. Not in the least. Dontvhavevtinevyo get into the southern startegy, though I'll say it's effects may still be evident but it's basis, to secure the white southern racists vote, is not. One of those things that get lost when you are talking three generations of voters removed from its inception. I don't know many racists other than a few crazies. Black and white. :-)

" If politicians on both sides spent as much time planning how to tackle social and fiscal issues as they do voting blocks I might not be so concerned with our future."
If football teams spent less time trying to beat the other side and more time being friendly and nice to the other side there would be far fewer injuries in football.

#129 | POSTED BY DANNI AT 2013-03-18 10:53 AM | FLAG:

Take your partisan bull hackery somewhere else where it's appreciated and accepted. Oh wait, this is the site of "red meat for yellow dogs" so you're good. Hack away. Funny how that statement doesn't mesh with your "Republicans never compromise" stance. Seems you are the one playing hardball. Seems you aren't really interesting in solving the potentially catastrophic issues we are facing but rather in gloating about "winning" while not knowing what to do when you do.

#251 | Posted by gavaster at 2013-03-18 09:53 PM | Reply | Flag:

#232 | Posted by danni

[Removes hat] Pardon me, ma'am. I failed to contain my roguish urges and my conduct fell below that expected of a gentleman. Take comfort that I shall endeavor to hold my future correspondence at a level expected when addressing your esteemed coterie. It was not my desire to offend the sensibilities of the delicate flower that you are. Please accept my most humble apology. [Replaces hat]

That or I could go the Dick Cheney route but even a cad like me won't stoop that low. So, I'll stick with the former.

But seriously, I never heard that theory until someone posted that article some months ago. The Court in Heller spent some time discussing post civil war enactments that suppressed black gun ownership. Those were found to violate the individual right to bear arms under the Second Amendment. Surely, such an important historical theory surrounding enactment and ratification of the amendment would at least gain a mention. It did not. Why? Overlooked or not a generally accepted theory?

#252 | Posted by et_al at 2013-03-18 10:58 PM | Reply | Flag:

How would the 2nd apply to those not emancipated - 3/5ths and all.

Post civil war application doesn't seem applicable to the premise.

#253 | Posted by YAV at 2013-03-18 11:30 PM | Reply | Flag:

such an important historical theory surrounding enactment and ratification of the amendment would at least gain a mention.

They're lawyers, not historians.

#254 | Posted by snoofy at 2013-03-19 12:58 AM | Reply | Flag:

What is it with you and context? Try reading the opinion. About the first fifty pages is history including the section I mentioned.

#255 | Posted by et_al at 2013-03-19 01:23 AM | Reply | Flag:

It's in there, you just have to read between the lines.

Keeping slaves = "traditionally lawful purpose."

#256 | Posted by snoofy at 2013-03-19 02:25 AM | Reply | Flag:

WTH does that mean?

#257 | Posted by et_al at 2013-03-19 03:02 AM | Reply | Flag:

In an odd twist of fate, it was indirectly the thing that brought the nation into a Civil war was the reason the South lost it.

Due to the uncontrollable conditions of nature, it was of course cooler in the north than the south. That's why the factories were built there. They were simply too hot to run for two or three months of the year in the south since air conditioning had not yet been invented. Factories have to run all year to compete.

So the south languished as a poorer agricultural society until the magic crop of cotton came along (and of course the invention of the cotton gin) that practically overnight made the south an economic powerhouse and something to be reckoned. The south of course knew this and having a bit of clout for the first time started to throw it about. This of course led to the war.

The twist of fate? It was the lack of factories mentioned above that caused the South to lose the war.

#258 | Posted by goatman at 2013-03-19 05:16 AM | Reply | Flag:

IMO, air conditioning has caused as big of a societal shift and change today as the cotton gin did almost 200 years ago. The power structure of the US has definitely moved south since AC was invented and began to be widely used.

#259 | Posted by goatman at 2013-03-19 05:19 AM | Reply | Flag:

Those goal posts getting heavy Doc?
#225 | Posted by RonPaul

You tell me, Haskell; you're the guy who's hauling them around.

#260 | Posted by Doc_Sarvis at 2013-03-19 05:44 AM | Reply | Flag:

#259 I look forward to reading your book.

#261 | Posted by snoofy at 2013-03-19 06:00 AM | Reply | Flag:

#259 I look forward to reading your book.

Let me know what you think.

#262 | Posted by goatman at 2013-03-19 06:15 AM | Reply | Flag:

Excellent point on the importance of AC, Goatman.

#263 | Posted by Doc_Sarvis at 2013-03-19 06:23 AM | Reply | Flag:

Along that line - and obviously not pertaining to the Civil War - there's "Phoenix may not survive climate change -
The Arizona city is almost entirely air-conditioned, and if our power grids fail, its people will fry" at
www.salon.com

I lived in Arizona for many years, Phoenix for more than a few, and the author of that piece makes some excellent points.

#264 | Posted by Doc_Sarvis at 2013-03-19 06:26 AM | Reply | Flag:

Goatman's right on AC. No AC, no IC.
Technology wouldn't exist the way it does today without it.
There wouldn't be an internet.

#265 | Posted by YAV at 2013-03-19 08:21 AM | Reply | Flag:


Those goal posts getting heavy Doc?
#225 | Posted by RonPaul

You tell me, Haskell; you're the guy who's hauling them around.

#260 | Posted by Doc_Sarvis

Whatever Doc.

I made a single point here and stuck to it. You had a hard time with it, so you accuse me of "doing something".

You're full of crap as usual.

Why don't you just admit it and move on rather than behave like a buffoon.

#266 | Posted by RonPaul at 2013-03-19 08:55 AM | Reply | Flag:

Doc...I believe that is the sound of a wingnut writhing in the crushing grip of reason....

...RP...always good to laugh at...

...oh, and never changed my name...never been booted...but you can spin you little conspiracies if you like...whatever floats your tiny little boat...

...LOL...

#267 | Posted by 1EyedMan at 2013-03-19 10:02 AM | Reply | Flag:

1eye,

you're a liar. You've been booted before. That's why you changed your name. Who were you before RCade booted you?

do you have anything to add other than being an idiot troll?

#268 | Posted by RonPaul at 2013-03-19 10:04 AM | Reply | Flag:

RonPaul....I know it's hard for you, so don't be an idiot. He is new to the site. I know him personally...

#269 | Posted by drewinnj at 2013-03-19 01:34 PM | Reply | Flag:

RP, your argument is false, and I believe you have intentionally made it so.

In your efforts to avoid giving any validity to the opposing argument – you have made absurd assertions about slavery – i.e. "Slavery is an economic issue" , I am sure in your mind genocide is an economic issue – about secession – i.e. "The south was better off" – except if you were unfortunate enough not to be white – even about what counter causes you are asserting - i.e."Tariff policy, Economics (sic)", of course everything reduces to economics in RPland. You offer straw man assertions when you are on the rhetorical ropes, where you often dwell. You dismiss others valid arguments as not being relevant because they are "hateful", usually as a tactic to dismiss what you cannot rebut - or somehow not arrived at in the proper historical or regional context…apparently that context as defined solely by you, although you never bother to articulate it.

You rhetorical techniques are the equivalent of petulant child's "…is so…" rebuttals – you offer no facts to support you poorly articulated position in a effort to enable you to feel free to change the terms of the debate at will – moving the goalposts – but this is delusional; the thread topic stands, your weak assertions and cheerleading from your fellow delusionistas notwithstanding. You seem to think that to never concede anything is the same a winning…when it is actually representative of either complete insincerity or a weak argument from an irrational mind…

…to sum it up…typical repukelickin'…

...about your assertions that I have changed my name - you are wrong as usual..but as I said before...whatever floats your whacky and increasingly paranoid little boat, Sailormoon...

…LOL…

#270 | Posted by 1EyedMan at 2013-03-19 01:39 PM | Reply | Flag:

...fried dyed and laid to the side, RP...

...LOL...

#271 | Posted by 1EyedMan at 2013-03-19 01:41 PM | Reply | Flag:

Curfew bells were commonplace until the 60's. They are probably shrines in the South.

#272 | Posted by redlightrobot at 2013-03-19 04:31 PM | Reply | Flag:

Advertisement

Post a comment

Comments are closed for this entry.

Drudge Retort

Home | Breaking News | Comments | User Blogs | Nooner | Stats | Back Page | RSS Feed | RSS Spec | DMCA Compliance | Privacy | Copyright 2013 World Readable

 

Advertisement