Drudge Retort: The Other Side of the News
Thursday, March 14, 2013

German police have arrested four men associated with the ultraconservative Islamic movement known as Salafism on suspicion of plotting to murder the leader of a far-right political party that has repeatedly taunted Muslims with caricatures of the Prophet Muhammad. Authorities also banned three associations linked to the Salafist movement in the country, saying the groups were involved in recruitment, fund-raising and distribution of propaganda. "Our recent past demonstrates what unchecked radicalization based on a Salafist worldview can lead to," said German interior minister Hans-Peter Friedrich.

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"plotting to murder"

sounds like a reasonable reason to say the group needs to disband.

enforcing it is going to be impossible though.

#1 | Posted by Tor at 2013-03-14 06:50 PM | Reply | Flag:

Sounds like a case for the German Civil Liberties Union.

#2 | Posted by Huguenot at 2013-03-14 06:57 PM | Reply | Flag:

"German Civil Liberties Union"

I doubt such a group exists since Nazi party's are still outlawed.

#3 | Posted by Tor at 2013-03-14 07:11 PM | Reply | Flag:

More religious people proving the dangers of being religious.

I've never understood the "no drawings of Muhammed".

But I applaud those who are making the drawings. We should blanket the middle east with leaflets of pictures of Mohamad.

#4 | Posted by ClownShack at 2013-03-14 07:13 PM | Reply | Flag:

"German Civil Liberties Union"

I doubt such a group exists since Nazi party's are still outlawed.

#3 | Posted by Tor at 2013-03-14 07:11 PM | Reply | Flag:

You're right. They need one though; like we have. Then both the Nazi's and the Salafi Jihadists could get some advocacy!

#5 | Posted by Huguenot at 2013-03-14 07:20 PM | Reply | Flag:

I'm with you clown. If we covered the planet w/ cartoons of the prophet surely these people will grow tired of the outrage

#6 | Posted by Dalton at 2013-03-14 07:32 PM | Reply | Flag:

Right, either they will realize how ridiculous they are or they spend the next few month blowing themselves up.

either way there will be closure.

#7 | Posted by ClownShack at 2013-03-14 07:35 PM | Reply | Flag:

There's nothing quite like doing something to offend others purely for the sake of offending them that proves how cool we are.

#8 | Posted by Tor at 2013-03-14 07:41 PM | Reply | Flag:

People do it all the time Tor. It's just that sane people don't start burning and blowing everything up.

#9 | Posted by Dalton at 2013-03-14 07:45 PM | Reply | Flag:

Well, in that case lets not do anything that may offend someone's draconic cult beliefs.

#10 | Posted by ClownShack at 2013-03-14 07:51 PM | Reply | Flag:

the leader of a far-right political party that has repeatedly taunted Muslims with caricatures of the Prophet Muhammad.

The Germans are stauncher supporters of the 1st amendment than we Americans are now.

Sadface.

(:

#11 | Posted by donnerboy at 2013-03-14 08:35 PM | Reply | Flag:

.... "Our recent past demonstrates what unchecked radicalization based on a Salafist worldview can lead to," said German interior minister Hans-Peter Friedrich"

**** And if any country knows what the "Consequences" of unchecked RADICALIZATION are...its Germany!!!

#13 | Posted by AntiCadillac at 2013-03-15 03:09 AM | Reply | Flag:

"Our recent past demonstrates what unchecked radicalization based on a Salafist worldview can lead to," said German interior minister Hans-Peter Friedrich.

Damn, he called them Nazis. When the Germans call you a Nazi you might want to listen to what the experts have to say.

#14 | Posted by snoofy at 2013-03-15 03:09 AM | Reply | Flag:

high five AntiCadillac

#15 | Posted by snoofy at 2013-03-15 03:09 AM | Reply | Flag:

There's nothing quite like doing something to offend others purely for the sake of offending them that proves how cool we are.
#8 | Posted by Tor

....I never offend Islam to prove "how cool" I am .....
..
... I offend Islam because it deserves offence, being the source of incalculabe human backwardness & misery .....
..
.... just as we stamped out apartheid in S.A., slavery and segregation in America, Communism in Eastern Europe,....we must all do what we can to end the evil of Islam .....

#16 | Posted by skizziks at 2013-03-15 09:38 AM | Reply | Flag:

Anyone else uncomfortable with Germany placing bans on religious groups?

#19 | Posted by kanrei at 2013-03-15 10:44 AM | Reply | Flag:

Anyone else uncomfortable with Germany placing bans on religious groups?
#19 | Posted by kanrei

....not when the "religious groups" are promoting hatred & violence .....
...
.... any group engaged in such activities should be exposed and outlawed .....
..
.... we can help with the exposing right here, and leave the outlawing to the law ....

#20 | Posted by skizziks at 2013-03-15 10:54 AM | Reply | Flag:

....not when the "religious groups" are promoting hatred & violence

Look up the Reichstag fire.

#21 | Posted by kanrei at 2013-03-15 10:57 AM | Reply | Flag:

Anyone else uncomfortable with Germany placing bans on religious groups?

As much as I despise religions and would like nothing more to see them -- or at least one -- fail, I am uncomfortable with it. But Germany has never been one to shy away from the thought police, so it's not surprising.

Also, isn't it easier to watch these wackos when they are all in one basket? Why destroy their known meeting place just to have them go to a more secretive one?

#22 | Posted by goatman at 2013-03-15 10:59 AM | Reply | Flag:

Look up the Reichstag fire.
#21 | Posted by kanrei

..are you saying that the Reichstag Fire, 80 years ago, disqualifies the current German state from identifying and outlawing hate groups ? ....

#23 | Posted by skizziks at 2013-03-15 11:03 AM | Reply | Flag:

are you saying that the Reichstag Fire, 80 years ago, disqualifies the current German state from identifying and outlawing hate groups ?

A) I was mostly making a joke about Germany and cracking down on religion, so relax and take a nice deep hit.

B) Disqualifies? No. Causes concern? Yes. Those who don't learn history are doomed to repeat it.

The Reichstag fire was used to condemn Communists as a hate group which then expanded to include Jews.

#24 | Posted by kanrei at 2013-03-15 11:09 AM | Reply | Flag:

Those who don't learn history are doomed to repeat it.

...the Germans have learned a great deal from their history....
..
... and outlawing a hate group which was planning on killing a political opponent is a good move ... you are barking up the wrong tree .....

#25 | Posted by skizziks at 2013-03-15 11:14 AM | Reply | Flag:

and outlawing a hate group which was planning on killing a political opponent is a good move ... you are barking up the wrong tree .....

#25 | Posted by skizziks at 2013-03-15 11:14 AM

Some people add words, others just ignore those they don't like.

suspicion of plotting to murder the leader of a far-right political party that has repeatedly taunted Muslims with caricatures of the Prophet Muhammad

They weren't "planning," they are accused of planning. Prove it first, then go after those that did. A faith is not to blame.

The Communists were accused of setting the Reichstag fire which is why I brought it up. They didn't set it history has shown.

#26 | Posted by kanrei at 2013-03-15 11:16 AM | Reply | Flag:

"Our recent past demonstrates what unchecked radicalization based on a Salafist worldview can lead to," Hans-Peter Friedrich, Germany's interior minister, said in a statement.


Now THERE's irony for ya. Your less-recent past demonstrates what happens when Germany decides to condemn a faith as a political tool.

#27 | Posted by kanrei at 2013-03-15 11:21 AM | Reply | Flag:

They weren't "planning," they are accused of planning. Prove it first, then go after those that did. A faith is not to blame.
#26 | Posted by kanrei

...they have'nt been found guilty yet ?....fine, they are legally innocent for now ....
..
... but I take exception to your statement that "A faith is not to blame.".... Islam causes endless human suffering, and unless it is held to account for it's shortcomings, it will never be amended or abandoned ......

#28 | Posted by skizziks at 2013-03-15 11:21 AM | Reply | Flag:

but I take exception to your statement that "A faith is not to blame.".... Islam causes endless human suffering, and unless it is held to account for it's shortcomings, it will never be amended or abandoned ......

Then you basically support this because it goes with your personal bias, not fact, but personal hate. We have nothing more to discuss.

#29 | Posted by kanrei at 2013-03-15 11:22 AM | Reply | Flag:

"we must all do what we can to end the evil of Islam"

skizziks, that statement of yours uses the word "ALL" and baked into that word is an invitation to violence. Otherwise you would qualify your statement to read, "we must do all that we can short of violence"

I was simply pointing out the silliness of your statement, which sounds like it comes from a Muslim-- "we must eradicate the evil that is western culture"

If you want to end "the evil of Islam", then prepare to get evil on them, for evil and violence exists in this world and it will never be "eradicated".

#30 | Posted by kamakiri at 2013-03-15 11:23 AM | Reply | Flag:

News of the arrests came as the federal authorities banned three associations linked to the Salafist movement in Germany, saying the groups were involved in recruitment, in fund-raising and in the distribution of propaganda over the Internet.

This is why the crack down. The accusation is a red herring.

#31 | Posted by kanrei at 2013-03-15 11:24 AM | Reply | Flag:

Then you basically support this because it goes with your personal bias, not fact, but personal hate. We have nothing more to discuss.
#29 | Posted by kanrei

....me? ..hate?... I don't advocate hating anyone, and I don't advocate killing anyone who does not agree with me, or who stops believing in my beliefs ....
..
...now ....
..
... do you know anyone who does advocate killing people who disagree with them? or killing anyone who stops believing what they believe ?? ..... ( I'll give you a hint, it starts like Muslix but has a different ending).......
....
.... if we want to eliminate hate from the world, then Islam is a great place to start .... open your eyes, look around , see what it's doing to people .....

#32 | Posted by skizziks at 2013-03-15 11:27 AM | Reply | Flag:

" Islam causes endless human suffering"

Life causes endless human suffering. Life is evil. Time to eradicate all of life????

If your gonna paint Islam with a broadstroke, why not just paint life the same way? If we all weren't alive, there certainly would be no chance for evil to be done on this planet.

#33 | Posted by kamakiri at 2013-03-15 11:30 AM | Reply | Flag:

....me? ..hate?... I don't advocate hating anyone, and I don't advocate killing anyone who does not agree with me, or who stops believing in my beliefs ....
..
... do you know anyone who does advocate killing people who disagree with them? or killing anyone who stops believing what they believe ??

#32 | Posted by skizziks at 2013-03-15 11:27 AM

Really? I wonder who posted this then:

... I offend Islam because it deserves offence, being the source of incalculabe human backwardness & misery .....
..
.... just as we stamped out apartheid in S.A., slavery and segregation in America, Communism in Eastern Europe,....we must all do what we can to end the evil of Islam .....

#16 | Posted by skizziks at 2013-03-15 09:38 AM

Must be some other skizziks.

#34 | Posted by kanrei at 2013-03-15 11:30 AM | Reply | Flag:

If you want to end "the evil of Islam", then prepare to get evil on them, for evil and violence exists in this world and it will never be "eradicated".
#30 | Posted by kamakiri

....I disagree ..... nothing eradicates religion like a good education .....
..
....and all it will take to end Islam will be the provision of a high level of universal education in the Islamic world ...
..
.... it's coming .....

#35 | Posted by skizziks at 2013-03-15 11:31 AM | Reply | Flag:

Must be some other skizziks.
#34 | Posted by kanrei

...no...it was all me ....and I see no contradiction in anything there ....
...
...and Islam is still evil, and we must call it out on it's shortcomings, and we must promote education as the cure to this vile belief ......

#36 | Posted by skizziks at 2013-03-15 11:33 AM | Reply | Flag:

It is always interesting when bigotry is so well woven into the fabric of self righteousness that someone cannot literally comprehend the utter hypocrisy of their POV when they call for the elimination of intolerance by means of intolerance.

#37 | Posted by kamakiri at 2013-03-15 11:33 AM | Reply | Flag:

NW for #37

#38 | Posted by kanrei at 2013-03-15 11:35 AM | Reply | Flag:

#35 | Posted by skizziks

.....and "offending Islam" and hating Muslims are quite different things, the beliefs of the religion are abhorrent to progressive humanity, but we don't hate the ignorant practitioners, they were born to the belief and brainwashed from an early age .....
..
... again .... education is the key .....

#39 | Posted by skizziks at 2013-03-15 11:36 AM | Reply | Flag:

It is always interesting when bigotry is so well woven into the fabric of self righteousness that someone cannot literally comprehend the utter hypocrisy of their POV when they call for the elimination of intolerance by means of intolerance.
#37 | Posted by kamakiri

....I am intolerant of ignorance, and ignorance fueled anti-human behavior .... [...]

#40 | Posted by skizziks at 2013-03-15 11:37 AM | Reply | Flag:

Sad some people can't seem to grasp why I, a Jew, a member of a faith repeatedly accused of and blamed for various injustitices around the world and through out history and nearly pushed to extinction would take issue with another faith being blamed and accused of various injustices around the world. Never Again doesn't just mean never again to my people; it means NEVER AGAIN and I will always pause when an entire faith is blamed for the actions of a few...ALWAYS.

#43 | Posted by kanrei at 2013-03-15 11:44 AM | Reply | Flag:

here is some light reading from the Koran for you to defend

Ever read the Bible or the Torah?

Hate all you want. Deny you do all you want. I don't care.

#45 | Posted by kanrei at 2013-03-15 11:52 AM | Reply | Flag:

Ever read the Bible or the Torah?
#45 | Posted by kanrei

I don't defend them either, but there is a difference.
All religions are equally delusional, but they are not all equally harmful.

#46 | Posted by skizziks at 2013-03-15 12:16 PM | Reply | Flag:

If your gonna paint Islam with a broadstroke, why not just paint life the same way? If we all weren't alive, there certainly would be no chance for evil to be done on this planet.
#33 | Posted by kamakiri

We have cancer research, because as the cancer cures pile up, we have a reduction in human suffering.
Religions are the same, they are a cancer on the human condition.
Some religions are more benign than others, some are very cruel and destructive.
Islam seems to be the worst of all religions, and the one that causes the greatest suffering in the world.
The lack of freedom for women, and the abuse they suffer under Islam, is monumental.
Each day another truckful of dead Shiites is removed from some street in Pakistan, because the Sunnis feel that their religion approves of them murdering unbelievers.
The list of crimes against humanity, done in the name of Islam, is without end.
That is why we must promote the entering of light, into those darkened minds, to make the human condition better.

#47 | Posted by skizziks at 2013-03-15 12:36 PM | Reply | Flag:

"Qur'an 59:14 "The Jews are devoid of sense. There is a grievous punishment awaiting them. Satan tells them not to believe so they will end up in Hell."

Interesting translation of the Quran you chose to defend your side of the coin there, skizziks. I looked it up online. Seems like every Islam hating website cites that translation too. It gives good insight into what sort of sites you've been frequenting in your spare time.

For balance, here is one I found that comes from the most popular and respected Arabic to English version in the world--


"They will not fight you (even) together, except in fortified townships, or from behind walls. Strong is their fighting (spirit) amongst themselves: thou wouldst think they were united, but their hearts are divided: that is because they are a people devoid of wisdom."

So, which translation is right??? In any case, I guess I'm a terrorist lover for showing this angle. Oops. Allah (Admiral) Ackbar!

#48 | Posted by kamakiri at 2013-03-15 01:18 PM | Reply | Flag:

....and all it will take to end Islam will be the provision of a high level of universal education in the Islamic world ...

The belief that Islam will disappear because of more education in the Islamic world is a fantasy. The public is much more educated in the U.S. today than in the 19th century. Do you see Christianity disappearing as a result? No.

It's offensive to lump all of the world's 1.5 billion Muslims together with the small number of extremist fanatics who kill in the name of that religion. There are fanatics who kill in the name of Christianity, too.

#49 | Posted by rcade at 2013-03-15 01:50 PM | Reply | Flag:

There are fanatics who kill in the name of Christianity, too.

You were doing good until you belched this meme out. There is no comparison in the magnitude of the killings, philosophy of, support or lack of from the respective spiritual leaders, numbers killed, condemnation or lack of from respective members of the religion etc. of course, and you know it.

#50 | Posted by goatman at 2013-03-15 01:56 PM | Reply | Flag:

The belief that Islam will disappear because of more education in the Islamic world is a fantasy. The public is much more educated in the U.S. today than in the 19th century. Do you see Christianity disappearing as a result? No.
....parts of the world where educational standards are higher than in the U.S. have seen a near disappearance of Christianity, so much so, that it is expected to disappear, except in a vestigal form, from many areas ..... here is a link:
Study: Religion Going Extinct in Most Western Countries

www.alternet.org
...these findings demonstrate 1).That religions do go extinct when faced with higher education.
2)...sadly ...U.S. public education is in decline ....

It's offensive to lump all of the world's 1.5 billion Muslims together with the small number of extremist fanatics who kill in the name of that religion. There are fanatics who kill in the name of Christianity, too.
#49 | Posted by rcade

...you made two points, first that those who kill in the name of Islam are different from people who do NOT kill in the name of Islam, your statement is correct, but my point is that there are articles of faith in Islam that promote killing others .... so whether one follows those articles of faith or not, the religion is equally responsible for inciting and justifying the violence .....

...your second point that some fanatics also kill in the name of Christianity is certainly true, but meaningless in the context of examening Islam, Islam must be held accountable for what it preaches....

....as I said before, all religions are equally delusional, but not equally harmful, due to the content of their beliefs ......

#51 | Posted by skizziks at 2013-03-15 02:12 PM | Reply | Flag:

So, which translation is right???
#48 | Posted by kamakiri

.....there are hundreds of objectionable quotes in the Koran, stuff that would make any other book be designated hate literature ....
...
.... I only took one sample for Kanrai to show him how well Jews are regarded by that religion's teachings ....
...
.... don't get me started on the apes and pigs .....

#52 | Posted by skizziks at 2013-03-15 02:20 PM | Reply | Flag:

.... I only took one sample for Kanrai to show him how well Jews are regarded by that religion's teachings

It was a weak attempt at moving goal posts from Germany banning a religion based on an accusation of a crime to a general Islam bashing.

#53 | Posted by kanrei at 2013-03-15 02:23 PM | Reply | Flag:

"But I applaud those who are making the drawings. We should blanket the middle east with leaflets of pictures of Mohamad.

#4 | Posted by ClownShack at 2013-03-14 07:13 PM | Reply | Flag:"

What I don't get about the mass rioting over the cartoons is this:

You believe in an all powerful God and this God told you not to depict the Prophet in pictures. He's said there will be consequences if you defy him. So you don't do it. All good so far....

Now someone else does it specifically to violate this order.

Don't you believe God is going to handle it? Don't your scriptures say that he will handle it? Why does God need you to riot and lash out at random people over it? You don't believe God when he says he will punish this behavior? You don't trust God to decide who must be punished?

Seems these people have little faith in their own God to do what he says he will do and take care of his own business. Borders on blasphemy when you think about it.....

#56 | Posted by sully at 2013-03-15 02:34 PM | Reply | Flag:

Borders on blasphemy when you think about it.....
#56 | Posted by sully

....don't suggest that, or they're going to have to go out and kill each other ......

#57 | Posted by skizziks at 2013-03-15 02:42 PM | Reply | Flag:

#55 | Posted by kanrei

....denial ....

#58 | Posted by skizziks at 2013-03-15 02:43 PM | Reply | Flag:

I hold freedo[m] in high regard ...#55 | Posted by kanrei

....and defend a belief that opposes freedom of thought ....
..

#59 | Posted by skizziks at 2013-03-15 02:47 PM | Reply | Flag:

I only deny you.

#60 | Posted by kanrei at 2013-03-15 02:47 PM | Reply | Flag:

You were doing good until you belched this meme out.

It's not a meme, it's a fact. There are Christian extremists who think their God wants them to kill, too. But since we live in a predominantly Christian culture, we know better than to tar all Christianity with the actions of an extremely small fanatic minority.

#61 | Posted by rcade at 2013-03-15 02:48 PM | Reply | Flag:

It's not a meme, it's a fact. There are Christian extremists who think their God wants them to kill, too. But since we live in a predominantly Christian culture, we know better than to tar all Christianity with the actions of an extremely small fanatic minority.
#61 | Posted by rcade

You are missing the point.
It's not about what the believers believe, it's about what the religion says.
If a religion says that it is proper to kill people for religious reasons, then that religion must be condemned for it's contents.

#62 | Posted by skizziks at 2013-03-15 02:50 PM | Reply | Flag:

Kamikari,

since you're parsing words...

he stated "all do", not "do all"

There fore the scope was on who should act... all. It was not a bounds on
what should be done, all. Therefore no clarification on "short of violence" was necessary.

#63 | Posted by kwrx25 at 2013-03-15 02:52 PM | Reply | Flag:

There are Christian extremists who think their God wants them to kill, too.

I said as much. I also pointed out there are big differences.

In modern history, how many have been killed in the name of Islam? Christianity?

You rarely (if ever, I'm giving the botd) see muslim leaders condemn suicide bombings, crashing planes into buildings, etc.

You don't see people having their heads cut off or otherwise persecuted in christian countries because they don't comply with the local religion

You don't see the equivalent of sharia law in christian countries or people getting stoned to death for being raped because their god wants it

I could go on of course. Why you try to juxtapose chirstians killing for their god and muslims doing it is beyond me. There is no realistic comparison. The correlation is weak at best.

#64 | Posted by goatman at 2013-03-15 02:56 PM | Reply | Flag:

OR, we are quick to criticize and point out the 'extremely small fanatic minority' of Christianity, which keeps it at a minimum. Islam? not so much. And that (coupled with low/non education) is why there are more fanatics in the Muslim world.

#65 | Posted by Yodar013 at 2013-03-15 03:01 PM | Reply | Flag:

We can call out the moderates on that one, or we can simply be apologists.

I choose the former.

#66 | Posted by Yodar013 at 2013-03-15 03:02 PM | Reply | Flag:

You rarely (if ever, I'm giving the botd) see muslim leaders condemn suicide bombings, crashing planes into buildings, etc.

In the Muslim world there are many people who condemn suicide attacks and other terrorism. You are not in the Muslim world, so you are not exposed to their comments. You wouldn't even recognize the names of these leaders.

#67 | Posted by rcade at 2013-03-15 03:08 PM | Reply | Flag:

Can you give us some popular examples? by popular i mean influential and sustaining?

#68 | Posted by Yodar013 at 2013-03-15 03:09 PM | Reply | Flag:

Atheism's Body Count - Ideology and Human Suffering

Atheism's Murder Rate: More than 250 Million Dead in the Past Century

scholarscorner.com

Islamists are way behind in the count.

#69 | Posted by Corky at 2013-03-15 03:11 PM | Reply | Flag:

the body count

#70 | Posted by Corky at 2013-03-15 03:12 PM | Reply | Flag:

Wait, is RCADE in the muslim world? Is he exposed to their comments? Please, enlighten us and give us examples of these influential and outspoken moderate muslims.

#71 | Posted by Yodar013 at 2013-03-15 03:15 PM | Reply | Flag:

It's ironic that so many people in America celebrate and champion the practice of self criticism. Often idiot conservatives will say stuff like 'love it or leave it!', and the intelligent liberal will respond: being critical of America is the most American thing one can do.

yet many of these intelligent liberals won't allow themselves to be critical of other cultures, and beyond that, convince themselves that other cultures are as self-critical as we are.

guess what. they aren't. and that's the problem.

#73 | Posted by Yodar013 at 2013-03-15 03:20 PM | Reply | Flag:

and the irony is that we are less self-critical of our military endeavors recently, but that's another issue.

#74 | Posted by Yodar013 at 2013-03-15 03:22 PM | Reply | Flag:

Is RCADE searching for outspoken, influential moderate muslims in the muslim world? Let me guess, they keep turning up dead or missing...

#75 | Posted by Yodar013 at 2013-03-15 03:23 PM | Reply | Flag:

#75

More likely he has merely committed the "conservative' sin of being well read on the subject.

Nuthin' more dangerous than a good edumacation, ya know!

#76 | Posted by Corky at 2013-03-15 03:29 PM | Reply | Flag:

I am very well read on the subject. I can say for a fact that there aren't many (if any) popular moderates in the muslim world that are outspoken when it comes suicide attacks, terrorism coming from their country, human rights and general religious self criticism.

Please correct me if you have some examples. Or you can go back to being snarky and double down on the apologist stance.

#77 | Posted by Yodar013 at 2013-03-15 03:34 PM | Reply | Flag:

How can some Americans celebrate and acknowledge the benevolent uniqueness of American individuality, forged throughout history as a result of much strife and our hugely important, influential human rights leaders, but at the same time assume other countries have the same thing?

#78 | Posted by Yodar013 at 2013-03-15 03:50 PM | Reply | Flag:

that sentiment not an american exceptionalism mentaility, american exceptionalism mentality would dictate that one looks down upon others for not having developed and become what we are. On the contrary, it's the sentiment that we should be an influential beacon to others to strive to embody those qualities. And to help that process along without infringement.

But if we kid ourselves into thinking everybody already has these virtues, well then we're just kidding ourselves.

#79 | Posted by Yodar013 at 2013-03-15 03:55 PM | Reply | Flag:

"I am very well read on the subject. I can say for a fact that there aren't many (if any) popular moderates in the muslim world that are outspoken when it comes suicide attacks"

You're well read on the subject? Guffaw! I just surfed the net for 2 minutes and found two:

en.wikipedia.org
en.wikipedia.org

#80 | Posted by kamakiri at 2013-03-15 04:11 PM | Reply | Flag:

your first example, Khaled, is in Cairo. How influential has he been on the recent developments in Egypt do you think?

The second, Yusuf, lives in SF.

#81 | Posted by Yodar013 at 2013-03-15 04:44 PM | Reply | Flag:

Great quote from Yusuf from the Brit article, 3rd reference i believe.

I'm speaking about muslims IN muslim countries. Even Yusuf sees that point/problem. But somehow you guys don't.

"This is a cultural issue, not an Islamic one. I would rather live as a Muslim in the west than in most of the Muslim countries, because I think the way Muslims are allowed to live in the west is closer to the Muslim way. A lot of Muslim immigrants feel the same way, which is why they are here."

#82 | Posted by Yodar013 at 2013-03-15 04:47 PM | Reply | Flag:

"This is a cultural issue, not an Islamic one. I would rather live as a Muslim in the west than in most of the Muslim countries, because I think the way Muslims are allowed to live in the west is closer to the Muslim way. A lot of Muslim immigrants feel the same way, which is why they are here."

Same of Western Jews and Christians. Has more to do with Western liberalism than religious Dogma I would say.

#83 | Posted by kanrei at 2013-03-15 04:50 PM | Reply | Flag:

Good point. And we need to be careful that religious Dogma (of ALL religions) doesn't infringe and weaken our sacred western liberalism.
(see what i did there? lol jk. happy friday, have a good weekend everyone!)

... and keep pointing out the problems with religious dogma in other cultures, instead of pretending it doesn't exist...

#84 | Posted by Yodar013 at 2013-03-15 04:53 PM | Reply | Flag:

Yodar, way to backpedal from your original statement. I bring up Amr Khaled, who has millions of listeners/viewers all around the Muslim world and you dismiss him.

#85 | Posted by kamakiri at 2013-03-15 05:23 PM | Reply | Flag:

Please, enlighten us and give us examples of these influential and outspoken moderate muslims.

They are all over the place if you take the time to look for them.

Here's a particularly prominent one, Muhammad Tahir-ul-Qadri:

www.dailymail.co.uk

Here's a list of links to dozens of Muslim groups and leaders condemning violence and terrorism:

theamericanmuslim.org

Here's a list of Muslim groups and leaders who condemned the 9/11 attacks:

kurzman.unc.edu

#86 | Posted by rcade at 2013-03-15 06:26 PM | Reply | Flag:

Rcade--I wish they were louder.

Because the terorists on the other side of the aisle are really Loud! And violent and murderers.

Islam needs to be reformed--it'll take a 100 years....

#87 | Posted by MURPHY at 2013-03-15 06:40 PM | Reply | Flag:

I don't think it's backpedaling because I pointed out that Khaled is in Cairo and he clearly hasn't had enough influence within his own country when you look at the recent malevolent transition that Egypt has just been through. One could argue that we (the west/US) shares some responsibility for that lack of development due to our support of Mubarak.. that's called an apologist stance.

If Japan was a crap hole right now would the same apologists blame the US? of course. But it isn't because of their culture. Maybe that is the pinpoint, the apologist stance.

In which cultures is the mentality 'my current crappy situation is mostly due to outside forces' the strongest? Muslim culture, american blacks. The Japanese sure as heck didn't and don't think that way, look at where they are now. And they really did get F'd. Jews don't think that way, and now they're taking over the world. Americans sure as heck didn't think that way regarding the british.

Shouldn't the list of outspoken muslim leaders and people championing the death of innocent civilians be shorter than the reciprocal?

#88 | Posted by Yodar013 at 2013-03-15 07:39 PM | Reply | Flag:

*it is because of their culture.

... regarding japanese bounce back, being non apologetical.. if that's a word.

#89 | Posted by Yodar013 at 2013-03-15 07:45 PM | Reply | Flag:

The key word here is oppression. Oppressive cultures are inherently trapped in time. It stifles development and progress, and currently it's the most prevalent in muslim countries. To a lesser degree china, but we all know that's going to change soon, hopefully slowly.

As Yusuf pointed out, it's not muslim culture in general, it's muslim culture within specific oppressive counties. And the oppression, unfortunately, is facilitated through religion. It taints Islam in a major way, and maybe 'westernized' muslims need to take a bigger stance and tackle the issue.

#90 | Posted by Yodar013 at 2013-03-15 08:11 PM | Reply | Flag:

".... just as we stamped out apartheid in S.A., slavery and segregation in America, Communism in Eastern Europe,....we must all do what we can to end the evil of Islam ....."

Um, what "we" are you talking about, exactly?

What I don't get about the mass rioting over the cartoons is this:

You believe in an all powerful God and this God told you not to depict the Prophet in pictures. He's said there will be consequences if you defy him. So you don't do it. All good so far....

Now someone else does it specifically to violate this order.

Don't you believe God is going to handle it? Don't your scriptures say that he will handle it? Why does God need you to riot and lash out at random people over it? You don't believe God when he says he will punish this behavior? You don't trust God to decide who must be punished?

Seems these people have little faith in their own God to do what he says he will do and take care of his own business. Borders on blasphemy when you think about it.....


If you keep applying logical principles to religious beliefs you'll soon come up against the complete lack of physical evidence supporting the existence of G-d.

You're running the Fool's Errand with your "logic." Because you're attempting to understand a decision-making process that doesn't operate (much) in the realm of logical reasoning.

You might as well be asking a blind person what the color green tastes like. If you want to "get" why people riot you're going to have to try different approaches to understanding it.

You might start by asking what are the general circumstances in which people riot, for example. And looking for commonalities between those situations and "mass rioting over cartoons."

#91 | Posted by snoofy at 2013-03-15 08:18 PM | Reply | Flag:

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