Drudge Retort: The Other Side of the News
Wednesday, March 13, 2013

Legal and medical experts are questioning the decision of a Colorado judge to allow James Holmes, the suspected gunman in the Aurora movie theater shooting, to be tested with a "truth serum" should he plead not guilty by reason of insanity. The idea would be that such a "narcoanalytic interview" could confirm whether he was legally insane when he allegedly embarked on his shooting spree on July 20, 2012. The precise drug that would be used has not been released, other than a statement that it would be "medically appropriate," but it would most likely be a short-acting barbiturate such as sodium amytal.

Advertisement

Menu

Advertisement

Subscriptions

Author Info

BruceBanner

 

Advertisement

MORE STORIES

 

Advertisement

More

William Shepherd, chair of the criminal justice section of the American Bar Association said that the proposed use of a "truth drug" to ascertain the veracity of a defendant's plea of insanity was highly unusual in the U.S. He predicted it would provoke intense legal argument relating to Holmes's right to remain silent under the fifth amendment of the US constitution.

"If a defendant loses his right to remain silent because the court has authorised the use of drugs that make him talk, that would raise all sorts of fifth amendment issues that both sides would have to address," he said.

Comments

Admin's note: Participants in this discussion must follow the site's moderation policy. Personal attacks, profanity, abusive conduct and expressions of prejudice are not allowed. If you have comments about site moderation, contact the site publisher in email.

The proposed use of a "truth drug" has also prompted a critical response from medical experts. Dr August Piper, a Seattle-based psychiatrist who has used sodium amytal to treat patients who were mute or in a catatonic state and who has written research papers on the subject, said that this was "not a royal road to the truth".

"First of all, people can still lie under the influence of amytal. More importantly, the person under the influence of the drug is susceptible to outside suggestion."

Piper also questioned whether such a method could be used to find out the truth of what happened retrospectively. Though short-acting barbiturates might be beneficial in illuminating Holmes's current state of mind, by opening him up to greater communication, it would be of doubtful use in determining his state of mind at the scene of the shooting eight months ago.

"To try and do this would be unlikely to yield useful information, and could pervert the course of justice by rendering the defendant susceptible to pressure," Piper said.

Steven Hoge, a clinical professor of psychiatry at Columbia University in New York, said that there was "no great evidence to support that narcoanalytic interviews lead to the truth by any means". He said that it was extremely rare to find the technique used in a criminal context.

Hoge has only once conducted a "narcoanalytic interview" himself – in the case of a man who had been so severely drunk he couldn't remember what had happened to him. The hope had been that he might recover memory, though it proved unsuccessful.

#1 | Posted by BruceBanner at 2013-03-12 04:39 PM | Reply | Flag:

Big Brother still loves you, though.

#2 | Posted by nullifidian at 2013-03-12 04:53 PM | Reply | Flag:

So they can feed him this drug and make him say what they want. Is this really needed? Is it the worst thing if he's found crazy? I'm no psychiatrist, but he does seem crazy. One look at his face is enough to tell you something snapped in there.

#3 | Posted by BruceBanner at 2013-03-12 04:58 PM | Reply | Flag:

Good grief this is stupid.

Truth drugs are only of value if the claims they produce can be tested.

In the case of the Aurora shooter if he was insane it's the kind society can't take any chances with.

#4 | Posted by Tor at 2013-03-12 05:11 PM | Reply | Flag:

It's worse than stupid, it's a violation of one's cognitive freedom. If the State can forcibly alter your consciousness against your will you have no liberty to speak of.

#5 | Posted by nullifidian at 2013-03-12 05:22 PM | Reply | Flag:

screw that.

waterboard him if you want the truth.

#6 | Posted by eberly at 2013-03-12 05:26 PM | Reply | Flag:

I had to chuckle at that Eberly. Interesting point though...

#7 | Posted by BruceBanner at 2013-03-12 05:34 PM | Reply | Flag:

I think they should haul his college shrink into court and grill her.

She's the one that found him to be a danger and she didn't do a damn thing about it.

rwd

#8 | Posted by rightwingdon at 2013-03-12 06:03 PM | Reply | Flag:

I'm no psychiatrist, but he does seem crazy. One look at his face is enough to tell you something snapped in there.

#3 | Posted by BruceBanner at 2013-03-12 04:58 PM | Reply

Look at his damn eyes----it must have been the rubber band holding his 2 optic nerves together.

#10 | Posted by matsop at 2013-03-12 06:08 PM | Reply | Flag:

Very much against this, one day this is used on him and then it becomes normal for it to be used as in every case.

#14 | Posted by zack991 at 2013-03-12 06:35 PM | Reply | Flag:

Just some comments about "narco-analysis" or the use of psychoactive medication to ascertain truth or use in interrogation:

1.Although there have been a number of studies none of the studies have been determined to be random and controlled so the effectiveness in this trial situation along with all information would be challenged from the outset and probably wouldn't be accepted in an appeals court. It would eventually be a waste of time and money and would be thrown out of court---it would open a can of worms and he judge should know better.

THE RELIABILITY OF THIS METHODOLOGY HASN'T BEEN ESTABLISHED.

2. To then expect the use of these hypnotics/sedatives to be able to ascertain the mental status of this gentleman at another retrospective point in time (months earlier) would be an exercise in futility since it's difficult enough in a frame of reference when it is recent information you would like to acquire.

3. Then you finally have the problem of "planting" information in a patients mind over time which would be another variable in ascertaining the "truthfulness" of the info received.

Now that I've participated on "topic" in my usual "intelligent" manner; it still holds that Null wouldn't have to worry about having his "cognitive liberty" challenged if placed in a similar situation.

#15 | Posted by matsop at 2013-03-12 06:45 PM | Reply | Flag:

Maybe we need a new plea, how about guilty and very insane.

#16 | Posted by danni at 2013-03-12 06:56 PM | Reply | Flag:

#16 How about "So crazy they can't be fixed". I have no doubt someone would have to be crazy to do this stuff but, that doesn't make them any less dangerous.

#17 | Posted by Dalton at 2013-03-12 07:25 PM | Reply | Flag:

This guy was on prescribed drugs before he went to shoot and kill strangers. So now the judge wants more drugs in him??

#18 | Posted by Diablo at 2013-03-12 08:03 PM | Reply | Flag:

He predicted it would provoke intense legal argument relating to Holmes's right to remain silent under the fifth amendment of the US constitution.

Meh. Whatever.

There's ample evidence to warrant suspicion that cops in CA intentionally tried to burn a suspect to death, yet the rapid slamming shut of any notion of an investigation into that incident barely made some bat their eyes about the potential ramifications on others' rights. Hell, some seemed loath to even admit it was suspicious as [...].

So long as the crime is heinous enough there will be those willing to ignore the very tenants our country and judicial system are built upon.

#19 | Posted by jpw at 2013-03-13 01:22 AM | Reply | Flag:

The CIA probably tried amobarbital during mkultra (they tried just about everything under the sun in search of a "truth serum").

Anyway, "truth serums" have been pretty much discounted, including this one:

Unapproved/off-label

When given slowly by an intravenous route, sodium amobarbital has a reputation for acting as a so-called truth serum. A person under the influence of the drug in this circumstance will relate information that he or she would otherwise "block." As such, the drug was first employed clinically by Dr. William Bleckwenn at the University of Wisconsin to circumvent inhibitions in psychiatric patients.[7]

The use of amobarbital as a truth serum has lost credibility due to the discovery that a subject can be coerced into having a 'false memory' of the event.[8]

The drug may be used intravenously to interview patients with catatonic mutism, sometimes combined with caffeine to prevent sleep.[9]

It was used by the United States armed forces during World War II in an attempt to treat shell shock and return soldiers to the front-line duties.[10]

en.wikipedia.org

maybe they'll go with scopolamine, though? LOL

#20 | Posted by Zarathustra at 2013-03-13 09:49 AM | Reply | Flag:

This is stupid.

But so is the insanity defense in a situation like this.

All the dead people don't come back to life because the piece of garbage who shot them is insane.

Let him do his time like anyone else.

#21 | Posted by Sully at 2013-03-13 11:29 AM | Reply | Flag:

It's worse than stupid, it's a violation of one's cognitive freedom. If the State can forcibly alter your consciousness against your will you have no liberty to speak of.

#5 | Posted by nullifidian

They can already forbid you from altering your own consciousness, why would this be any different.

The drug war established that the government has control over your brain chemistry.

#22 | Posted by SpeakSoftly at 2013-03-13 12:01 PM | Reply | Flag:

Forcing one to take truth serum violates the 5th amendment protection of not being witness against yourself.

#23 | Posted by kanrei at 2013-03-13 12:04 PM | Reply | Flag:

All the dead people don't come back to life because the piece of garbage who shot them is insane.

That's never been the purpose of an insanity defense, and while I feel it is overused, the point is that the assailant was so nuts he didn't make a conscious choice to commit the crime in the first place. The point isn't to "bring anyone back." They aren't brought back if you put him to death by a firing squad either.

#24 | Posted by JOE at 2013-03-13 12:18 PM | Reply | Flag:

That's never been the purpose of an insanity defense, and while I feel it is overused, the point is that the assailant was so nuts he didn't make a conscious choice to commit the crime in the first place. The point isn't to "bring anyone back." They aren't brought back if you put him to death by a firing squad either.

#24 | Posted by JOE at 2013-03-13 12:18 PM | Reply | Flag:

Bingo.

In many jurisdictions (not sure about Colorado -- sounds like not) there's a "guilty but mentally ill" option. The defendant still goes to prison but, in theory at least, he gets treated while incarcerated.

#25 | Posted by cbob at 2013-03-13 12:48 PM | Reply | Flag:

Just another democrat obama wet dream, remove another slice of our liberties.

#26 | Posted by moneywar at 2013-03-13 02:16 PM | Reply | Flag:

Just declare him an enemy combatant and all of this will be perfectly acceptable. I thought this guy was already a terrorist? Let's just take one final dump on The Constitution, strip him of his inalienable rights and be done with it.

#27 | Posted by Ben_Berkkake at 2013-03-13 03:15 PM | Reply | Flag:

Just declare him an enemy combatant...then let him loose and drop a drone-fired hellfire missile on his arse.

#28 | Posted by JeffJ at 2013-03-13 03:17 PM | Reply | Flag:

Not only is he a mass murder, threatening our 2nd amendment rights by his singular, deliberative actions, now our 5th amendment rights are being trampled as well because of him.

someone just put a bullet in the back of his head already...

#29 | Posted by danv at 2013-03-13 06:24 PM | Reply | Flag:

**** Who's going to adminsiter the Truth Serum...somebody from the CIA...the same folks who "prepped" Mr.Holmes's brain in the first place?

#30 | Posted by AntiCadillac at 2013-03-13 08:10 PM | Reply | Flag:

(1) This is just wrong. Crazy or not, everyone has the right to STFU.
(2) The whole concept of an individual being "not guilty" because he/she's insane is insane it's self. The person either did or did not do the crime. The reason they did the crime should be addressed at sentencing. Mental state should have bearing on what actions actually took place. And yes I know there is precedent!!! But judges are people too and therefore are suubject to being wrong, corrupt, and self-absorbed just like the rest of us.

#31 | Posted by bogey1355 at 2013-03-14 12:20 PM | Reply | Flag:

should read "mental state should NOT have bearing"

#32 | Posted by bogey1355 at 2013-03-14 02:24 PM | Reply | Flag:

Some drugs are good drugs...apparently.

#33 | Posted by donnerboy at 2013-03-14 02:30 PM | Reply | Flag:


Some drugs are good drugs...apparently.

#33 | Posted by donnerboy at 2013-03-14 02:30 PM

I've had some good ones =D

#34 | Posted by kanrei at 2013-03-14 02:31 PM | Reply | Flag:

I've had some good ones =D

#34 | Posted by kanrei

lol

I was gonna say I'd do the truth serum if everyone else in the room did it too!

Sounds like a real fun version of "spin the bottle" or "truth or dare".

#35 | Posted by donnerboy at 2013-03-14 02:33 PM | Reply | Flag:

I'd do the truth serum if everyone else in the room did it too!


I wouldn't. I would never want to lose control of my internal filter (what little I have of one).

#36 | Posted by kanrei at 2013-03-14 02:35 PM | Reply | Flag:

Sounds like a real fun version of "spin the bottle" or "truth or dare".

#35 | Posted by donnerboy

But, then again...I am not on trial as a mass murderer.

#37 | Posted by donnerboy at 2013-03-14 02:36 PM | Reply | Flag:

I wouldn't. I would never want to lose control of my internal filter (what little I have of one).

#36 | Posted by kanrei

I would especially there were a lot of hot young babes in the game. But, I have a high tolerance to drugs as I have tried so many...and I am one sick puppy.

#38 | Posted by donnerboy at 2013-03-14 02:37 PM | Reply | Flag:

I would especially there were a lot of hot young babes in the game.
#38 | Posted by donnerboy at 2013-03-14 02:37 PM |

LOL. Point one out, ask me "what would you like to do" and then watch the slapping begin.

#39 | Posted by kanrei at 2013-03-14 02:39 PM | Reply | Flag:

Advertisement

Post a comment

Comments are closed for this entry.

Drudge Retort

Home | Breaking News | Comments | User Blogs | Nooner | Stats | Back Page | RSS Feed | RSS Spec | DMCA Compliance | Privacy | Copyright 2013 World Readable

 

Advertisement