Drudge Retort: The Other Side of the News
Wednesday, February 27, 2013

The Supreme Court on Tuesday turned back a challenge to a federal law that broadened the government's power to eavesdrop on international phone calls and e-mails. More broadly, the ruling illustrated how hard it is to mount court challenges to a wide array of antiterrorism measures, including renditions of terrorism suspects to foreign countries and targeted killings using drones, in light of the combination of government secrecy and judicial doctrines limiting access to the courts. Writing for the majority, Justice Samuel A. Alito Jr. said that the journalists, lawyers and human rights advocates who challenged the constitutionality of the law could not show they had been harmed by it and so lacked standing to sue. The plaintiffs' fear that they would be subject to surveillance in the future was too speculative to establish standing, he wrote.

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In dissent, Justice Stephen G. Breyer wrote that the harm claimed by the plaintiffs was not speculative. "Indeed," he wrote, "it is as likely to take place as are most future events that common-sense inference and ordinary knowledge of human nature tell us will happen."

He further wrote, "[W]e need only assume that the Government is doing its job (to find out about, and combat, terrorism) in order to conclude that there is a high probability that the Government will intercept at least some electronic communication to which at least some of the plaintiffs are parties. The majority is wrong when it describes the harm threatened plaintiffs as "speculative."

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So now the 'conservatives' like Alito, who wrote the opinion, are opposed by 'liberals' like Breyer on such a fundamental civil right? What hope does this country have? Now wonder they think it's okay to take private land and give it to a private developer as long as it helps a town's tax revenue.

#1 | Posted by Diablo at 2013-02-27 01:23 AM | Reply | Flag:

So now the 'conservatives' like Alito, who wrote the opinion, are opposed by 'liberals' like Breyer on such a fundamental civil right? What hope does this country have? Now wonder they think it's okay to take private land and give it to a private developer as long as it helps a town's tax revenue.

#2 | Posted by Diablo at 2013-02-27 01:26 AM | Reply | Flag:

"Writing for the majority, Justice Samuel A. Alito Jr. said that the journalists, lawyers and human rights advocates who challenged the constitutionality of the law could not show they had been harmed by it and so lacked standing to sue."

If your post-facto FISA warrant is based on secret information and you're innocent, you'll probably never know you've been surveilled so challenging the law would never occur to you. And if you have been rightly arrested you still can't see the evidence that justified the warrant so can't even mount a fruit of a poisoned tree defense or something.

You're right, et_al, it looks like nobody has standing to sue. A chilling state of legal affairs.

#3 | Posted by Hagbard_Celine at 2013-02-27 09:44 AM | Reply | Flag:

Thank god we have the Second Amendment to protect us from FISA surveillance.

#4 | Posted by DRJIMMIES at 2013-02-27 11:19 AM | Reply | Flag:

You not only can't see the evidence, it is illegal for anyone to inform you if you are being spied upon. If you are imprisoned, it can be indefinitely, while the courts refuse to level a charge that could give away state secrets.

But don't worry. You have nothing to fear if you are innocent. History has shown despotic leaders never get in positions of authority under false premises and abuse their power.

#5 | Posted by zeropointnrg at 2013-02-27 12:10 PM | Reply | Flag:

This is the tail wagging the dog. Nobody can challenge the constitutionality of a law that allows the government to conduct secret wiretaps, because the government keeps its records a secret, and you will therefore never be able to show that the law has been applied to you.

There has to be a mechanism in place for any law passed by Congress to face judicial and Constitutional scrutiny. Don't look for Obama or Congress to create one anytime soon.

#6 | Posted by JOE at 2013-02-27 12:20 PM | Reply | Flag:

"There has to be a mechanism in place for any law passed by Congress to face judicial and Constitutional scrutiny."

Agreed.

"Don't look for Obama or Congress to create one anytime soon."

Sadly conceded.

#7 | Posted by Hagbard_Celine at 2013-02-27 12:27 PM | Reply | Flag:

Thank god we have the Second Amendment to protect us from FISA surveillance. #4 | Posted by DRJIMMIES

Right, because the surveillance is occuring right outside your front door.

#8 | Posted by Hagbard_Celine at 2013-02-27 12:30 PM | Reply | Flag:

The really scary thing is the type of control-freak and/or paranoid megalomaniac who would seek employment in an agency that carries out this type of surveillance. Normal, laid back people don't look for jobs in organizations that obsess over secrecy and prying into other people's business. Usually, it is the [bleep] and people with personality defects who seek out that type of work.
So... not only do these freaks have more opportunities for such employment, but they also continue to have virtually no oversight as they pursue their fanatical (perhaps even voyeuristic) obsession with snooping.

#9 | Posted by moder8 at 2013-02-27 12:39 PM | Reply | Flag:

Normal, laid back people don't look for jobs in organizations that obsess over secrecy and prying into other people's business. Usually, it is the [bleep] and people with personality defects who seek out that type of work.

As opposed to the people who dedicate their life toward reducing sentences for rapists and murderers.

#10 | Posted by JOE at 2013-02-27 12:57 PM | Reply | Flag:

As opposed to the people who dedicate their life toward reducing sentences for rapists and murderers. #10 | Posted by JOE

Not a comment I'd expect to hear from an attorney.

#11 | Posted by Hagbard_Celine at 2013-02-27 01:01 PM | Reply | Flag:

These black robed tyrants are paving the way for the police state one brick at a time.

Anybody still think lifetime court appointments are a good idea?

#13 | Posted by nullifidian at 2013-02-27 01:16 PM | Reply | Flag:

The really scary thing is the type of control-freak and/or paranoid megalomaniac who would seek employment in an agency that carries out this type of surveillance. "

There are plenty of psychos around like that. Bounty hunters, for example.

#14 | Posted by nullifidian at 2013-02-27 01:19 PM | Reply | Flag:

As opposed to the people who dedicate their life toward reducing sentences for rapists and murderers.#10 | Posted by JOE

Hell yeah, these goddamn pointy-headed, university egghead idiots have always been soft on rapists and murderers. You sound like my kind of lawyer, Joey.

--George Wallace

#15 | Posted by nullifidian at 2013-02-27 01:48 PM | Reply | Flag:

#13 | Posted by nullifidian
These black robed tyrants are paving the way for the police state one brick at a time.

That may be a little extreme but it does appear there are now two different forms of "standing," one for "national security" and one for everything else.

#16 | Posted by et_al at 2013-02-27 02:27 PM | Reply | Flag:

Not a comment I'd expect to hear from an attorney.

Why?

I have no doubt about our need for defense attorneys to protect the constitutional rights of the accused, but just as Moder8 said, it takes a certain type of person to do the day-in day-out plea bargaining on behalf of people they know have committed violent crimes.

#17 | Posted by JOE at 2013-02-27 02:37 PM | Reply | Flag:

"I have no doubt about our need for defense attorneys to protect the constitutional rights of the accused, but just as Moder8 said, it takes a certain type of person to do the day-in day-out plea bargaining on behalf of people they know have committed violent crimes."

Your post at #10 implied (and in implied I'm being generous) a lot more than that.

#18 | Posted by Hagbard_Celine at 2013-02-27 02:42 PM | Reply | Flag:

What else did it imply?

#19 | Posted by JOE at 2013-02-27 02:44 PM | Reply | Flag:

Elect members to the House and Senate who agree with your opinion and resolve the issue! Not easy, but workable! If you're arrested and convicted, I would have an opinion that you were doing something illegal from the start! There IS still a Judge and court involved. Even the Library book thing turned into nothing.

Calm down! It'll be over soon! With one more selection to the SCOTUS there'll be a majority for change - altho it may just be for 'depends'!

#20 | Posted by dogen at 2013-02-27 06:56 PM | Reply | Flag:

FISA has not been complied with since before 9-11. That is the problem. Bush launched a full scale wiretapping program against the Deomcrats as soon as he took office. Naturally the same five on SCOTUS that appointed that scumbag wants to support his criminal initiative. Stupid Democrats then provided retroactive amnesty.

#21 | Posted by nutcase at 2013-02-27 07:27 PM | Reply | Flag:

"Those of us with nothing to hide, have nothing to fear."

GOPpers 2001-2008

#22 | Posted by northguy3 at 2013-02-27 07:55 PM | Reply | Flag:

Nobody can challenge the constitutionality of a law that allows the government to conduct secret wiretaps, because the government keeps its records a secret, and you will therefore never be able to show that the law has been applied to you.

That, right there.

Why isn't it enough to show that the constitution has been obviously violated? Why does specific damage need to be shown?

#23 | Posted by Alexandrite at 2013-02-27 08:07 PM | Reply | Flag:

#23 | Posted by Alexandrite
Why isn't it enough to show that the constitution has been obviously violated? Why does specific damage need to be shown?

The merits of whether or not FISA is Constitutional plays no role in the determination of who has "standing" to challenge the statute. The first question the Court must always ask is whether it has jurisdiction (power, authority) to hear the case. That question turns, in part, on "standing."

#24 | Posted by et_al at 2013-02-27 08:25 PM | Reply | Flag:

Given it's unconstitutional nature, ANYONE should be given "standing" to challenge it.

Unfortunately, we have the opposite situation here, where the govt can cover up the damages to the point where they cannot be challenged at all. Our justice system has really fallen apart.

#25 | Posted by Alexandrite at 2013-02-27 08:36 PM | Reply | Flag:

#25 | Posted by Alexandrite
Given it's unconstitutional nature...

Were that true there would be no reason to challenge it because it would not be in effect.

Couple things you may or may not know. FISA has been around since the late 70's. It deals with foreign intelligence gathering to which the Fourth Amendment generally does not apply. FISC, created at the same time, involves warrants for intelligence gathering about foreign operatives in the US and with some communications involving US citizens.

Our justice system has really fallen apart.

Simplistic understanding of the issue can lead to that conclusion.

#26 | Posted by et_al at 2013-02-27 09:30 PM | Reply | Flag:

What part of the govt keeping their activities secret has escaped you?

I can't prove damages I don't know about, hence the secrecy.

#27 | Posted by Alexandrite at 2013-02-27 09:55 PM | Reply | Flag:

If there was any consistency to these evil justices thinking they wouldn't have grabbed Citizens United from the trash.

#28 | Posted by nutcase at 2013-02-27 10:15 PM | Reply | Flag:

#27 | Posted by Alexandrite

None of it escapes me. I don't like it but I understand it. Something that appears to escape you.

Want more? Mosey on over to Lawfare. They have two articles on the front page on Clapper. Search the site and you will find a boat load of info on the subject as well as the case.

#29 | Posted by et_al at 2013-02-27 10:17 PM | Reply | Flag:

I dont think Alexandrite is missing anything. We know you need standing to bring a lawsuit. But when the government has instituted a secret program and refused to release records regarding same, nobody will ever be able to prove standing to challenge the constitutionality of the program. You could have standing right now, but you'll never know it. When it comes to the activities of our government, it seems some kind of review should be available for all laws.

Suppose the government decides homelessness is a problem, and passes a law establishing secret prisons where they arrest and incarcerate homeless people without due process. They refuse to release any records about the program under the guise of national security. Anytime anyone sues, thinking their homeless family member may have been imprisoned under this program, the government wins the case because you cant prove it actually happened to YOUR relative. Because the government just wont tell you when it has.

Im not saying i actually think this would ever happen. Im just not seeing how it could ever be stopped given these sorts of court rulings.

#30 | Posted by JOE at 2013-02-27 11:01 PM | Reply | Flag:

#30 | Posted by JOE

I don't disagree that it is nothing short of mind boggling to think this type of government action is not subject to judicial scrutiny on basically procedural grounds. Form over substance so to speak. "National security" seems to be the only place we see virtually impenetrable secrecy. Then, courts have almost always deferred to the executive and legislative branches in that area. Often for good reason. It has thus been observed, as I noted above, there now appears to be two different forms of standing analysis, one for national security and everything else.

Perhaps all is not lost. Addressing the argument that "[i]t would be wrong...to 'insulate the government's surveillance activities from meaningful judicial review[,]'" Justice Alito describes a few instances in which standing would exist. Clapper pgs. 22, 23 (pdf pgs. 25, 26). Improbable though they may be.

#31 | Posted by et_al at 2013-02-28 12:06 AM | Reply | Flag:

It has thus been observed, as I noted above, there now appears to be two different forms of standing analysis, one for national security and everything else.

I agree, but I'd go a little farther and say they only notice the obvious Catch-22 when it suits them.

Reminiscent of what Scalia said about the VRA,

"Now, I don't think that's attributable to the fact that it is so much clearer now that we need this. I think it is attributable, very likely attributable, to a phenomenon that is called perpetuation of racial entitlement. It's been written about. Whenever a society adopts racial entitlements, it is very difficult to get out of them through the normal political processes. I don't think there is anything to be gained by any Senator to vote against continuation of this act. And I am fairly confident it will be reenacted in perpetuity unless -- unless a court can say it does not comport with the Constitution"

Just replace racial entitlement with War on Terror, War on Drugs, Military-Industrial Complex, Sonny Bono Copyright Extension Act, etc. etc.

#32 | Posted by snoofy at 2013-02-28 03:11 AM | Reply | Flag:

there now appears to be two different forms of standing analysis, one for national security and everything else.

I disagree. The analysis is exactly the same, which is where the problem lies. The justices are relying on an inflexible rule requiring "concrete and paricularized injury" even when all common sense indicates that nobody can ever make that showing. I have no illusions that this isn't the rule, which is why i don't blame the justices for their ruling. I blame the government for relying on procedural arguments to defend the indefensible.

Any Congress or President who gave a damn about the Constitution would be pushing for a mechanism to allow judicial scrutiny of government practices without regard to standing in cases where it can never be proven, or at least institute a policy of not challenging standing in some cases and allowing a Constitutional review to go forward. I won't hold my breath waiting for the "Constitutional Scholar" in chief to do that.

#33 | Posted by JOE at 2013-02-28 07:23 AM | Reply | Flag:

I think we are missing a few key points.

First, anyone charged with a crime would be able to challenge the Constitutionality of the law as a violation of the Fourth Amendment. This would arise at a Suppression hearing.

Second, it wouldn't make a difference. And this is a huge misunderstood point here. The law doesn't actually matter. Even if the law didn't exist, the government could still wiretap without a warrant. They just couldn't use the wiretapped information against you or fruit of the wiretap against you in Court.

#34 | Posted by Sycophant at 2013-02-28 11:14 AM | Reply | Flag:

They did not rule asgainst the law. They ruled that you have to prove harm before they could decide the law.

#35 | Posted by Sniper at 2013-02-28 12:16 PM | Reply | Flag:

"First, anyone charged with a crime would be able to challenge the Constitutionality of the law as a violation of the Fourth Amendment. This would arise at a Suppression hearing."

If the evidence is secret then you might not even find out that some of it was obtained through a FISA tap, so how would you be able to argue against it being admitted if you don't know it exists?

#36 | Posted by Hagbard_Celine at 2013-02-28 12:29 PM | Reply | Flag:

I'm not defending it hag, I think their ruling was way too narrow. They should have to get a warrent for any tap on a US citizen's phone.

#37 | Posted by Sniper at 2013-02-28 01:00 PM | Reply | Flag:

"[An] act of terrorism, means any activity that (A) involves a violent act or an act dangerous to human life that is a violation of the criminal laws of the United States or any State, or that would be a criminal violation if committed within the jurisdiction of the United States or of any State; and (B) appears to be intended (i) to intimidate or coerce a civilian population; (ii) to influence the policy of a government by intimidation or coercion; or (iii) to affect the conduct of a government by assassination or kidnapping."

This makes it open for the obama and crew to do anything they like. And anyone who doesn't think this is an obama issue is dead wrong, obama made promises to fix this.

#38 | Posted by moneywar at 2013-02-28 01:07 PM | Reply | Flag:

"Those of us with nothing to hide, have nothing to fear."
GOPpers 2001-2008

#22 | POSTED BY NORTHGUY3 AT 2013-02-27 07:55 PM | REPLY |

-Said a few idiotic political hacks. Why would you want to join that club?

#39 | Posted by Yodar013 at 2013-02-28 01:13 PM | Reply | Flag:

.... Hitler said "The great thing about fascism is that it forces those who oppose it to use similiar tactics to fight it!

**** Bottom line is that the Govt "WAR MONGERS" and their CorpoRat pals like the "BANKSTERS" (that all this Totalitarian legislation like FISA was really created to protect and empower) can never be Criminally Charged or Prosecuted! E Pluribus Unum!

#40 | Posted by AntiCadillac at 2013-02-28 01:22 PM | Reply | Flag:

#34 | Posted by Sycophant
First, anyone charged with a crime would be able to challenge the Constitutionality of the law as a violation of the Fourth Amendment. This would arise at a Suppression hearing.

Not so fast, counsel. Check your authorities.

Second, the court joined a chorus of judges concluding that the Fourth Amendment is not violated by a system in which prosecutors later make use of FISA-derived evidence so long as foreign intelligence-collection was a "significant purpose" of the FISA application at the time. The court expressly disagreed with the vacated Mayfield decision (in which a district judge in Oregon had held that post-PATRIOT Act FISA violates the 4th Amendment), describing it as an outlier.
Second, it wouldn't make a difference. And this is a huge misunderstood point here. The law doesn't actually matter. Even if the law didn't exist, the government could still wiretap without a warrant.

That settles that. Chuck the Constitution, law, courts and Congress 'cause they're gonna do it anyway.

#41 | Posted by et_al at 2013-02-28 01:31 PM | Reply | Flag:

What is sad here is the amount of posters admiring the way the civil violation has been up held through political legal jargon all the while knowing that the whole thing is without constitutional civil rights standing.

This isn't about smarts, it is about government intent and since government is always changing we the people have know idea how this will be carried out.

This is shameful and removes another block from our country standing in the future.

#42 | Posted by moneywar at 2013-02-28 01:40 PM | Reply | Flag:

When did it become a conservative viewpoint to support big omnipotent government?

#43 | Posted by Robson at 2013-02-28 02:39 PM | Reply | Flag:

"When did it become a conservative viewpoint to support big omnipotent government?"

King George or King Tut, I can't remember which.

#44 | Posted by nullifidian at 2013-02-28 03:04 PM | Reply | Flag:

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