Drudge Retort: The Other Side of the News
Wednesday, February 27, 2013

Atheists, humanists and freethinkers face widespread discrimination around the world with expression of their views criminalized and subject in some countries to capital punishment, the International Humanist and Ethical Union told the United Nations Monday. A number of Muslim governments that asked the UN to ensure that religious faith is respected are not extending that respect to atheists in their countries, the IHEU said. The countries "prosecute people who express their religious doubt or dissent, regardless of whether those dissenters identify as atheist," it told the UN.

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HeuristicGratis

 

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The strange part, atheists commonly claim that they have no beliefs, so how can they be discriminated against based on beliefs that they supposedly do not have? The claim is that moves to restrict the denigration of religion are discriminatory to atheists, forcing them to adopt other beliefs they really don't believe in order to escape discrimination based on their atheistic beliefs that are often claimed to be no beliefs at all.

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I don't believe it...

#1 | Posted by HeuristicGratis at 2013-02-26 09:17 AM | Reply | Flag:

"International Humanist and Ethical Union (IHEU)"

Well if atheists don't join a club for the purpose of [...] looking down on the religious, nobody would know they are atheists.

I see no reason why an atheist needs an organization. Its what I find most appealing about being one.

#2 | Posted by Sully at 2013-02-26 09:27 AM | Reply | Flag:

It's a hell of a lot safer to not-believe in leprechauns than not-believe in Almighty GAWD. Christians would still be burning non-theists at the stake if they were still in charge of the State.

#3 | Posted by nullifidian at 2013-02-26 09:27 AM | Reply | Flag:

"Well if atheists don't join a club for the purpose of [...] looking down on the religious, nobody would know they are atheists."

Yeah, if atheists would just keep their beliefs to themselves and leave the public square to the God Squad there wouldn't any problem.

#4 | Posted by nullifidian at 2013-02-26 09:29 AM | Reply | Flag:

"Well if atheists don't join a club for the purpose of circle jerking and looking down on the religious, nobody would know they are atheists."

It's not uncommon for atheists to have to live a closeted life and/or regularly defend their position, especially in some parts. For that reason alone I can't begrudge them the desire to club-up, whether it be "for the purpose of [...] looking down on the religious" or any other reason.

#5 | Posted by Hagbard_Celine at 2013-02-26 09:32 AM | Reply | Flag:

Or what Nulli said I guess.

#6 | Posted by Hagbard_Celine at 2013-02-26 09:33 AM | Reply | Flag:

"Or what Nulli said I guess."

You said it more elegantly though. I just like to throw oranges, and let others clean up.

#7 | Posted by nullifidian at 2013-02-26 09:45 AM | Reply | Flag:

"It's not uncommon for atheists to have to live a closeted life and/or regularly defend their position, especially in some parts."

In some parts of the country, people won't like you if you don't belong to the right church. That's true for atheists or any other religious minority. Other than that, I'm not sure what you're talking about.

"For that reason alone I can't begrudge them the desire to club-up, whether it be "for the purpose of circle jerking and looking down on the religious" or any other reason. "

I'm not aware of an atheist organization that isn't a self congratulatorty circle jerk but I suppose they may exist.

#8 | Posted by Sully at 2013-02-26 09:50 AM | Reply | Flag:

"In Afghanistan, Iran, Maldives, Mauritania, Pakistan, Saudi Arabia and Sudan "atheists can face the death penalty on the grounds of their belief" although this was in violation of U.N. human rights accords, the IHEU said."

Even in parts of the U.S. expressing non-theist views can be dangerous to one's physical health.

#9 | Posted by nullifidian at 2013-02-26 10:04 AM | Reply | Flag:

The strange part, atheists commonly claim that they have no beliefs, so how can they be discriminated against based on beliefs that they supposedly do not have?

This is an absurd question. Atheists don't claim to have no beliefs. They claim to have no belief in God.

If you believe a group can suffer discrimination for believing in God, you should be able to understand how a group can suffer discrimination for not believing.

#10 | Posted by rcade at 2013-02-26 10:08 AM | Reply | Flag:

"Other than that, I'm not sure what you're talking about."

Other than that? There is no other than that.

"I'm not aware of an atheist organization that isn't a self congratulatorty circle jerk but I suppose they may exist."

Even if they didn't exist, why do you care? And how is it really different from what goes on in any religious gathering? People are social animals that seek out those with similar beliefs or interests. The main difference being that religions have centuries of practice cultivating their language of exclusion and self congratulation and atheists are relative neophytes organizationally.

#11 | Posted by Hagbard_Celine at 2013-02-26 10:08 AM | Reply | Flag:

"Happily, the backlash against neo-atheism has begun, inspired by the cult's own intolerance.

In the Christmas issue of this magazine, Dawkins interviewed Hitchens. Halfway through, Dawkins asked:

"Do you ever worry that if we win and, so to speak, destroy Christianity, that vacuum would be filled by Islam?"

At dinner at the restaurant in Bayswater we all laughed at this, but our laughter was uneasy. The history of attempts to destroy religion is littered with the corpses of believers and unbelievers alike. There are many roads to truth, but cultish intolerance is not one of them."

www.newstatesman.com

by atheist Bryan Appleyard... who I think in the article reflects Sully's view

#12 | Posted by Corky at 2013-02-26 10:13 AM | Reply | Flag:

Most folks I know don't care enough about something so miserably stupid as religion to even call themselves atheists.

#13 | Posted by Zatoichi at 2013-02-26 10:15 AM | Reply | Flag:

[...] from the link

"Ultimately, the problem with militant neo-atheism is that it represents a profound category error. Explaining religion - or, indeed, the human experience - in scientific terms is futile.

"It would be as bizarre as to launch a scientific investigation into the truth of Anna Karenina or love," de Botton says.

"It's a symptom of the misplaced confidence of science . . . It's a kind of category error. It's a fatally wrong question and the more you ask it, the more you come up with bizarre and odd answers."

#15 | Posted by Corky at 2013-02-26 10:28 AM | Reply | Flag:

Happily, the backlash against neo-atheism has begun, inspired by the cult's own intolerance.

Had the militant neo-atheists -- and it's always the "militants" in every group who seem to cause all the rancor and hatred -- just shut-up and left alone those who do believe in God then there'd be no backlash.

It wasn't until atheists ramped up their non-belief in God into almost a "religion" of their own that others came down on them for it.

No one appreciates being told their own particular beliefs and values are foolish and stupid -- especially by a group (atheists) who themselves believe in nothing.

#16 | Posted by CalifChris at 2013-02-26 10:45 AM | Reply | Flag:

Putting "neo-" in front of something to mean "really bad version of" is played out. I have no idea what "neo-atheist" is supposed to convey.

#17 | Posted by rcade at 2013-02-26 10:49 AM | Reply | Flag:

Appleyard provides a detailed definition of "neo-atheist" in the article.

The term is not as familiar here as it is in Britain, where it has been used for many years. There they have the "God Wars" as played out on the New Statesman Religion page.

Secularism vs Islam/Christianity, where Islam has a much larger impact in Britain than here.

And neo means new.

Here is a recent battle.

www.bbc.co.uk

www.newstatesman.com

#18 | Posted by Corky at 2013-02-26 10:58 AM | Reply | Flag:

"Putting "neo-" in front of something to mean "really bad version of" is played out."

It is a good thing that this is not what is at issue in the label neo-Atheism.

"I have no idea what "neo-atheist" is supposed to convey."

That sounds like a personal problem to me. Perhaps some research is in order?

Neo-Atheist or New Atheist is, in my experience of the term, used to refer to a modern variety of atheism exhibiting a number of characteristics, including 1) a desire to cultivate broad popular appeal (to evangelize or, if you wish, counter-evangelize), 2) an at times unacknowledged materialistic/reductionist metaphysics, and 3) an offering up of (a reductionist/materialist version of) "science" as an alternative to religiosity. Richard Dawkins and Christopher Hitchens tend to be among the thinkers associated with this movement.

#19 | Posted by DirkStruan at 2013-02-26 11:01 AM | Reply | Flag:

"Putting "neo-" in front of something to mean "really bad version of" is played out"

It's the latest insult invented by neo-monotheists.

#20 | Posted by nullifidian at 2013-02-26 11:03 AM | Reply | Flag:

"First, a definition. By "neo-atheism", I mean a tripartite belief system founded on the conviction that science provides the only road to truth and that all religions are deluded, irrational and destructive.

Atheism is just one-third of this exotic ideological cocktail. Secularism, the political wing of the movement, is another third. Neo-atheists often assume that the two are the same thing; in fact, atheism is a metaphysical position and secularism is a view of how society should be organised.

So a Christian can easily be a secularist - indeed, even Christ was being one when he said, "Render unto Caesar" - and an atheist can be anti-secularist if he happens to believe that religious views should be taken into account. But, in some muddled way, the two ideas have been combined by the cultists.

The third leg of neo-atheism is Darwinism, the AK-47 of neo-atheist shock troops. Alone among scientists, and perhaps because of the enormous influence of Richard Dawkins, Darwin has been embraced as the final conclusive proof not only that God does not exist but also that religion as a whole is a uniquely dangerous threat to scientific rationality.

"There is this strange supposition," says the American philosopher Jerry Fodor, "that if you're a Darwinian you have to be an atheist. In my case, I'm an anti-Darwinian and I'm an atheist. But people are so incoherent on these issues that it's hard for me to figure out what is driving them." - from the link

#21 | Posted by Corky at 2013-02-26 11:04 AM | Reply | Flag:

Putting "neo-" in front of something to mean "really bad version of" is played out. I have no idea what "neo-atheist" is supposed to convey.
#17 | Posted by rcade

....it means Corky doesn't know what he's talking about .....
..
... he wants to pretend that atheism is a religion, so that he can make the case that it as stupid to be an atheist, as a god believer .....
...
..... a false equivalence .....

#22 | Posted by skizziks at 2013-02-26 11:09 AM | Reply | Flag:

-It's the latest insult invented by neo-monotheists.

Of course, Appleyard is an atheist who didn't invent the term but rather has helped define it.

Most atheists tend not to hold the intolerant fundamentalist views of neo-atheists, a term that has been around in popular use for at least 20 years.

#23 | Posted by Corky at 2013-02-26 11:09 AM | Reply | Flag:

-it as stupid to be an atheist, as a god believer .....

More like it is as stupid to be an intolerant religious fundamentalist as it is to be an intolerant neo-atheist fundamentalist.

#24 | Posted by Corky at 2013-02-26 11:12 AM | Reply | Flag:

... neo-atheists, a term that has been around in popular use for at least 20 years.

In the U.S.?

#25 | Posted by rcade at 2013-02-26 11:14 AM | Reply | Flag:

In Britain.

Again, because of the immigration of Muslims to Britain, they have been at this conversation much longer than we have.

#26 | Posted by Corky at 2013-02-26 11:16 AM | Reply | Flag:

More like it is as stupid to be an intolerant religious fundamentalist as it is to be an intolerant neo-atheist fundamentalist.
#24 | Posted by Corky

.....there you go ... sticking to your false equivalence .....
..
.... it's still false Corky ... believers are on a whole other level of stupid than atheists, and your protestations to the contrary will not change that fact ......

#27 | Posted by skizziks at 2013-02-26 11:32 AM | Reply | Flag:

-believers are on a whole other level of stupid than atheists,

Which is where the arrogant fundamentalist intolerance of neo-atheists comes in.

Thank you for proving the point.

What we have here is a Category Error, science defining God.

"Ultimately, the problem with militant neo-atheism is that it represents a profound category error. Explaining religion - or, indeed, the human experience - in scientific terms is futile.

"It would be as bizarre as to launch a scientific investigation into the truth of Anna Karenina or love," de Botton says.

"It's a symptom of the misplaced confidence of science . . . It's a kind of category error. It's a fatally wrong question and the more you ask it, the more you come up with bizarre and odd answers."

#28 | Posted by Corky at 2013-02-26 11:36 AM | Reply | Flag:

"... he wants to pretend that atheism is a religion"

It's fascinating, it's like saying "atheism is just as stupid as theism," an odd argument coming from a theist.

#29 | Posted by nullifidian at 2013-02-26 11:37 AM | Reply | Flag:

- it's like saying "atheism is just as stupid as theism,

No, as pointed out above, "More like it is as stupid to be an intolerant religious fundamentalist as it is to be an intolerant neo-atheist fundamentalist."

#30 | Posted by Corky at 2013-02-26 11:39 AM | Reply | Flag:

"Even if they didn't exist, why do you care?"

Well if you form a club for the purpose of looking down your nose at people expect some backlash.

"And how is it really different from what goes on in any religious gathering?"

Its not, which kind of defeats the purpose of atheism. I'd rather just go to church than a self congratulatory atheist gathering. And I don't like going to church all that much.

#31 | Posted by Sully at 2013-02-26 11:41 AM | Reply | Flag:

it's like saying "atheism is just as stupid as theism," an odd argument coming from a theist.
#29 | Posted by nullifidian

... exactly .... but it's all Corky's got .... .....
...

#32 | Posted by skizziks at 2013-02-26 11:46 AM | Reply | Flag:

I guess if creating a Strawman is all you've got, it's all you've got.

What I said was, "More like it is as stupid to be an intolerant religious fundamentalist as it is to be an intolerant neo-atheist fundamentalist."

I have no problem with atheists like Appleyard or many others, only with intolerant fundamentalist neo-atheists, just as I have a problem with intolerant religious fundamentalists.

#33 | Posted by Corky at 2013-02-26 12:02 PM | Reply | Flag:

The only time I take offense as an atheist is when some idiot claims that religion is a prerequisite to morally upright behavior.

But its really such a stupid, demonstrably false statement that its hard to be too offended by it. It says alot more about the person making the argument than anyone else.

#34 | Posted by Sully at 2013-02-26 12:04 PM | Reply | Flag:

The only thing worse than "neo-atheism" and neo-monotheism is neo-neoism.

#35 | Posted by nullifidian at 2013-02-26 12:08 PM | Reply | Flag:

-when some idiot claims that religion is a prerequisite to morally upright behavior.

Which is to me like someone saying, "believers are on a whole other level of stupid than atheists, and your protestations to the contrary will not change that fact ......".

Talk about arrogant and intolerant broad bushes.

#36 | Posted by Corky at 2013-02-26 12:10 PM | Reply | Flag:

No one appreciates being told their own particular beliefs and values are foolish and stupid --

#16 | Posted by CalifChris

That's really got to be the self retort of the day.

#37 | Posted by Whatsleft at 2013-02-26 12:14 PM | Reply | Flag:

#10 Atheists affirm the belief that god or gods do not and/or cannot exist. They then often claim they have no belief toward the existence of god. Only to later make clear that they believe god does not and/or cannot exist.

They have beliefs about god, pretend they don't have beliefs about god, and then claim they are being discriminated against for their beliefs.

It is a strange position to hold for sure.

#38 | Posted by HeuristicGratis at 2013-02-26 01:11 PM | Reply | Flag:

#10 Atheists affirm the belief that Santa Claus or Santa Clauses do not and/or cannot exist. They then often claim they have no belief toward the existence of Santa Claus. Only to later make clear that they believe Santa does not and/or cannot exist.

They have beliefs about Santa Claus, pretend they don't have beliefs about Santa Claus, and then claim they are being discriminated against for their beliefs.

It is a strange position to hold for sure.
#38 | Posted by HeuristicGratis

.....not at all ..... and I fixed your conundrum for you, so that even you would understand what you're talking about.....

#39 | Posted by skizziks at 2013-02-26 01:21 PM | Reply | Flag:

"It is a strange position to hold for sure."

No more than the belief system of what passes for your typical "Christian" in the US these days: loving Jesus while hating everything he stood for.

#40 | Posted by Sully at 2013-02-26 01:22 PM | Reply | Flag:

They have beliefs about god, pretend they don't have beliefs about god, and then claim they are being discriminated against for their beliefs.

Only in your caricatured, overly simplified version of what atheists are.

Sure, there are loud mouth atheists who proclaim God does not or cannot exist.

Then there are the quiet ones who just don't believe.

#41 | Posted by jpw at 2013-02-26 01:26 PM | Reply | Flag:

And I see corky is here with his c&ps, because you know, if someone's an atheist and they have a recognized name, they must be correct...

#42 | Posted by jpw at 2013-02-26 01:28 PM | Reply | Flag:

#42 I see JP didn't bother to read the article at the link.

www.newstatesman.com

#43 | Posted by Corky at 2013-02-26 01:30 PM | Reply | Flag:

Funny how Sully is an atheist or agnostic and we have no problems because we are tolerant of each others views.

It's the arrogant and intolerant who think the other person is "stupid" because of their beliefs that are the problematic ones.

#44 | Posted by Corky at 2013-02-26 01:33 PM | Reply | Flag:

#42 I see JP didn't bother to read the article at the link.

Nope.

Just popping in and out when I have a few idle minutes.

It's the arrogant and intolerant who think the other person is "stupid" because of their beliefs that are the problematic ones.

If this is directed at me you're preaching at the wrong person.

IMO this whole topic would be a non-issue if both sides, theists and atheists, would acknowledge that religious/spiritual beliefs are personal philosophies and treat them as such.

#45 | Posted by jpw at 2013-02-26 01:59 PM | Reply | Flag:

#45 No, it's in quotes and directed at the one who said it above.

#46 | Posted by Corky at 2013-02-26 02:01 PM | Reply | Flag:

No one appreciates being told their own particular beliefs and values are foolish and stupid -- especially by a group (atheists) who themselves believe in nothing.

Your apparent lack of self-awareness on this topic is slightly disturbing.

Apparently you expect atheists to just sit quietly in the corner and just shutup?

#47 | Posted by jpw at 2013-02-26 02:01 PM | Reply | Flag:

#45 No, it's in quotes and directed at the one who said it above.

OK.

#48 | Posted by jpw at 2013-02-26 02:02 PM | Reply | Flag:

-would acknowledge that religious/spiritual beliefs are personal philosophies and treat them as such.

Which is what is meant by a, "Category Error" in #28.

#49 | Posted by Corky at 2013-02-26 02:03 PM | Reply | Flag:

The last thing we need is another victim group. Atheists need to pipe down.

Why be as annoying as the thumpers?

#50 | Posted by 101Chairborne at 2013-02-26 02:04 PM | Reply | Flag:

"Apparently you expect atheists to just sit quietly in the corner and just shutup?"

That's what the word "neo-atheism" is all about. It's a way of insulting critics and shutting up critiques of monotheist cults.

#52 | Posted by nullifidian at 2013-02-26 02:09 PM | Reply | Flag:

#50 |lmao! Quick and to the point as per usual, Chair.

#53 | Posted by Corky at 2013-02-26 02:15 PM | Reply | Flag:

"Apparently you expect atheists to just sit quietly in the corner and just shutup?"

I guess it depends on what they're going on about....

If they're voicing a legitimate opinion and someone tries to undermine it based on their lack of faith, then no, of course they shouldn't stand for that.

If they are preaching about the evils of what someone else believes, then yes, I wish they'd shut up. Criticizing examples of specific harm is one thing but begrudging other people their right to be religious is another.

#54 | Posted by sully at 2013-02-26 02:16 PM | Reply | Flag:

"Why be as annoying as the thumpers?"

Because its not religion that makes people insecure and annoying and they can't help their annoying behavior any more than bible thumpers can.

#55 | Posted by Sully at 2013-02-26 02:18 PM | Reply | Flag:

#39 It doesn't appear you fixed anything. You have only managed to show your ability to commit category errors.

#41 The quite ones just don't believe what exactly? They don't believe God exists? Or are they agnostic and don't believe they can know either way?

#56 | Posted by HeuristicGratis at 2013-02-26 02:34 PM | Reply | Flag:

The quite ones just don't believe what exactly? They don't believe God exists? Or are they agnostic and don't believe they can know either way?

I've met both.

#57 | Posted by jpw at 2013-02-26 02:39 PM | Reply | Flag:

#57 You very well may have met both. However those are two different positions. Agnostics don't believe they can know one way or the other. Atheists believe that god or gods cannot and/or do not exist.

That was the original point, and why it is strange when atheists say they have no belief about God while still referring to themselves as atheists rather than agnostics.

#58 | Posted by HeuristicGratis at 2013-02-26 02:43 PM | Reply | Flag:

#34 | Posted by Sully
"But its really such a stupid, demonstrably false statement that its hard to be too offended by it. It says alot more about the person making the argument than anyone else."

Hear, hear!

#59 | Posted by TheTom at 2013-02-26 02:51 PM | Reply | Flag:

Atheism ranked at the bottom of demographics for whom Americans would be most comfortable voting for in a presidential election:

◊ Black, Female, Catholic, Hispanic, or Jewish = 90%
◊ Gay or Lesbian = 68%
◊ Muslim = 58%
◊ Atheist = 54%

The poll showed that Americans are least likely to vote for someone who identifies as Atheist- 54 percent, with individuals of Muslim faith following closely behind- just 58 percent of Americans responded they'd be willing to vote for someone who was Muslim. 68 percent said that they would vote for a presidential candidate who was gay or lesbian, while the rest of the groups- Black, Female, Catholic, Hispanic and Jewish, each had yes responses 90 percent or more.
abcnews.go.com

#60 | Posted by rstybeach11 at 2013-02-26 03:01 PM | Reply | Flag:

"Atheism ranked at the bottom of demographics for whom Americans would be most comfortable voting for in a presidential election"

Wow even below Muslim.

I'd be worried about having a president who puts alot of stock in the more negative aspects of any religion rather than what religion it is.....

For example, normal Christians are fine but you'd never want one of these end-timers who reads a ton of Rapture Porn. When the going gets rough, they are likely to throw up their hands and say "Well, its over" rather than work to fix it.

#61 | Posted by Sully at 2013-02-26 03:15 PM | Reply | Flag:

When the going gets rough, they are likely to throw up their hands and say "Well, its over" rather than work to fix it.

Or, more likely IMO, conduct in some sort of behavior that they think will bring about the Apocalypse while they are in power, thereby relegating themselves as the leader of men in which GAWD will seek to converse the terms of humanity's entry into heaven. It's all about self-interest for these f[...]ing people. Let's be honest.

#62 | Posted by rstybeach11 at 2013-02-26 03:24 PM | Reply | Flag:

You very well may have met both. However those are two different positions. Agnostics don't believe they can know one way or the other. Atheists believe that god or gods cannot and/or do not exist.

I am well aware of the definitions of agnostic and atheist.

Maybe I'm misunderstanding your point?

In any case, my original point was that atheism does not have a belief structure in many atheists world. The argument has been had on here many times over the definition of atheism, but, that argument aside, there are two camps-those who simply hold no beliefs and those who actively deny and disbelieve in God.

Hence why I said your statement I originally quoted is over-simplified as it only addresses a single population of atheists, the population that I happen to think is the minority despite the loud noise they make.

#63 | Posted by jpw at 2013-02-26 03:36 PM | Reply | Flag:

#63 There are no two camps of atheism. There is atheism and there is agnosticism.

I am not sure why you think you have met an atheist that is an agnostic. You can't be both at the same time.

#64 | Posted by HeuristicGratis at 2013-02-26 03:49 PM | Reply | Flag:

There are no two camps of atheism. There is atheism and there is agnosticism.

Agnosticism doesn't fall under atheism, so it can't be another camp under the atheist umbrella.

And not believing does not mean to not knowing.

It's simply a lack of belief, which makes one an atheist.

#65 | Posted by jpw at 2013-02-26 03:55 PM | Reply | Flag:

Oddly, I totally disagree with you about one thing, Sully - your #2. The one thing I miss about religion is the community and gathering. I like the concept of going to church. It's the superstition I'd rather skip. Oh, and the American version of Gawd, more concerned with who gets to marry whom than how we take care of those less fortunate.

#66 | Posted by zeropointnrg at 2013-02-26 03:59 PM | Reply | Flag:

#66 | POSTED BY ZEROPOINTNRG

It's definitely THE only reason I miss being Catholic. There are some very wonderful people at my old church and it was a great community/environment to grow up in. I also have to credit the community aspect of my congregation for exposing me to my favorite sport - volleyball. I've been a volunteer coach the past five years in an attempt to give back, but I'm sure much of the pull to do so involves the interest in being apart of a community aspect like I experienced in my youth at Our Mother of Confidence Church.

#67 | Posted by rstybeach11 at 2013-02-26 04:03 PM | Reply | Flag:

I'm not aware of an atheist organization that isn't a self congratulatorty circle jerk but I suppose they may exist.
#8 | POSTED BY SULLY AT 2013-02-26 09:50 AM | FLAG:

I'm not aware of a religious organization that isn't a self congratulatory circle jerk, but I suppose they may exist.

#68 | Posted by ClownShack at 2013-02-26 04:09 PM | Reply | Flag:

"I'm not aware of a religious organization that isn't a self congratulatory circle jerk, but I suppose they may exist"

Really? There are many.

#69 | Posted by Sully at 2013-02-26 04:12 PM | Reply | Flag:

"Oddly, I totally disagree with you about one thing, Sully - your #2. The one thing I miss about religion is the community and gathering. I like the concept of going to church. It's the superstition I'd rather skip."

If I did miss such a thing, I'd join a church before an atheist group. The "superstition" doesn't bother me at all. Its alot more tolerable to me than arrogance.

#70 | Posted by Sully at 2013-02-26 04:17 PM | Reply | Flag:

Had the militant neo-atheists -- and it's always the "militants" in every group who seem to cause all the rancor and hatred -- just shut-up and left alone those who do believe in God then there'd be no backlash.
#16 | POSTED BY CALIFCHRIS AT 2013-02-26 10:45 AM | REPLY | FLAG:

Great advice CC, they should just "shut up!"

Matter of fact, everyone should just shut up. Civil rights activists should just shut up, women's suffrage groups should of just shut up, gays should just shut up, religions other than christianity should just shut up, sects of christianity that aren't catholic should just shut up, anyone other than the King should just shut up.

We can turn back centuries if people would just shut up.

You, in a single sentence, just returned us to the good old dark ages. I hope you're ready for the bubonic plague again because science and medicine were also just told to shut up.

Why are you even posting anything when you should just shut up.

#71 | Posted by ClownShack at 2013-02-26 04:17 PM | Reply | Flag:

Really? There are many.
#69 | POSTED BY SULLY AT 2013-02-26 04:12 PM | REPLY | FLAG

Well I'm convinced.

#72 | Posted by ClownShack at 2013-02-26 04:18 PM | Reply | Flag:

#69 | Posted by Sully at 2013-02-26 04:12 PM | Reply | Flag

LOL---you must be the only member. Every religion I ever heard of proclaims themselves to be the WAY, and all others are delusional.

#73 | Posted by Buffalo_Bob at 2013-02-26 04:19 PM | Reply | Flag:

"It's definitely THE only reason I miss being Catholic. There are some very wonderful people at my old church and it was a great community/environment to grow up in."

I still consider myself "ethnically" Catholic. I still celebrate the holidays with my family and whatnot. I still agree with alot fo the moral concepts I learned during religous instruction.

#74 | Posted by Sully at 2013-02-26 04:22 PM | Reply | Flag:

"Every religion I ever heard of proclaims themselves to be the WAY, and all others are delusional."

I used to ask Catholic nuns about this all the time - both my teachers and in my family. I could never get any of them to say any such thing. And that's one of the least open religions.....

#75 | Posted by Sully at 2013-02-26 04:24 PM | Reply | Flag:

" Every religion I ever heard of proclaims themselves to be the WAY, and all others are delusional."

That's certainly true of monotheism by definition. If there is only "one true God" then all others must be frauds or faces of Satan, thus, monotheist pogroms like the Inquisition.

#76 | Posted by nullifidian at 2013-02-26 04:24 PM | Reply | Flag:

"Well I'm convinced."

I feel no more need to convince you of the existence of benevolent religious institutions than I do to convince you that water is wet. What you choose to believe despite the evidence all around you is your own problem.

#77 | Posted by Sully at 2013-02-26 04:26 PM | Reply | Flag:

#74 | POSTED BY SULLY

Ethnically Catholic. Well put. I don't have a large family, so the idea of not celebrating Christmas with the ones that I do celebrate with is very depressing. Although I don't believe in Santa (who supposedly brought the presents) nor Christ (whose birthday we are supposed to celebrate on a pagan holiday) I still celebrate Christmas and enjoy it. It's funny, the older I've become, the more I've appreciated the holiday season. It's the time of year that I get to see my parents the most. Pessimists like me really value the little time we have with loved ones out of fear of the inevitable.

When I was a kid, it was all about Jesus and Santa.

#78 | Posted by rstybeach11 at 2013-02-26 04:32 PM | Reply | Flag:

"Had the militant neo-atheists "

You have any problem with militant monotheists? You know, the ones that dominate the public sphere? The ones that want to force Christian prayer in schools? Force others to subsidize their tax-exempt cults?

#79 | Posted by nullifidian at 2013-02-26 04:38 PM | Reply | Flag:

The "superstition" doesn't bother me at all. Its alot more tolerable to me than arrogance.

The arrogance is based on using science as evidence. You consider everyone else relying on science to make arguments just as arrogant?

#80 | Posted by rstybeach11 at 2013-02-26 04:39 PM | Reply | Flag:

-based on using science as evidence.

"Ultimately, the problem with militant neo-atheism is that it represents a profound category error. Explaining religion - or, indeed, the human experience - in scientific terms is futile.

"It would be as bizarre as to launch a scientific investigation into the truth of Anna Karenina or love," de Botton says.

"It's a symptom of the misplaced confidence of science . . . It's a kind of category error. It's a fatally wrong question and the more you ask it, the more you come up with bizarre and odd answers."

www.newstatesman.com

#81 | Posted by Corky at 2013-02-26 04:48 PM | Reply | Flag:

-monotheist pogroms like the Inquisition.

At least someone is keeping the 12th century alive and well. Really relevant, that, lmao.

#82 | Posted by Corky at 2013-02-26 04:49 PM | Reply | Flag:

I feel no more need to convince you of the existence of benevolent religious institutions than I do to convince you that water is wet. What you choose to believe despite the evidence all around you is your own problem.

#77 | POSTED BY SULLY AT 2013-02-26 04:26 PM | REPLY | FLAG

again: "I'm not aware of a religious organization that isn't a self congratulatory circle jerk."

Gathering to pat each other on the back because you all believe in the same thing is a "self congratulatory circle jerk."

All the evidence around me exemplifies religious organizations are a self congratulatory circle jerk.

It's as obvious as water being wet.

#83 | Posted by ClownShack at 2013-02-26 04:52 PM | Reply | Flag:

12th century

The Spanish Inquisition was abolished on 15 July 1834.

Lie some more.

#84 | Posted by Zatoichi at 2013-02-26 04:54 PM | Reply | Flag:

It began in France in the 12th century.

Have another shot.

#85 | Posted by Corky at 2013-02-26 04:55 PM | Reply | Flag:

"Ultimately, the problem with militant neo-atheism is that it represents a profound category error. Explaining religion - or, indeed, the human experience - in scientific terms is futile.

Agreed, science uses logic and observable, provable, facts.

Religion has nothing to do with logic, observations, or facts.

#86 | Posted by ClownShack at 2013-02-26 04:56 PM | Reply | Flag:

When I was a kid, it was all about Jesus and Santa.

#78 | POSTED BY RSTYBEACH11 AT 2013-02-26 04:32 PM | REPLY | FLAG:

For religious people, its still all about Jesus and Santa.

#87 | Posted by ClownShack at 2013-02-26 04:57 PM | Reply | Flag:

www.newstatesman.com

#81 | Posted by Corky

How many times are you going to spam that article, anyway? You must have posted it a 100 times at least.

#88 | Posted by nullifidian at 2013-02-26 04:58 PM | Reply | Flag:

"It's a symptom of the misplaced confidence of science"

I would rather put my belief in observed, provable research than magic!

#89 | Posted by ClownShack at 2013-02-26 05:00 PM | Reply | Flag:

Actually, the last big monotheist pogrom happened a few years ago when Christian U.S. showered "shock and awe" over Islamic Iraq.

#90 | Posted by nullifidian at 2013-02-26 05:00 PM | Reply | Flag:

"Atheism is just one-third of this exotic ideological cocktail. Secularism, the political wing of the movement, is another third.

Neo-atheists often assume that the two are the same thing; in fact, atheism is a metaphysical position and secularism is a view of how society should be organised."

from #21

www.newstatesman.com

Theism and atheism are metaphysical concepts... not science's forte.

Of course, some people confuse their science for religion.

#91 | Posted by Corky at 2013-02-26 05:00 PM | Reply | Flag:

#88 until you read it.

#92 | Posted by Corky at 2013-02-26 05:01 PM | Reply | Flag:

-the last big monotheist pogrom

Ah, a "monotheist pogrom" against monotheists... funny how that works.

Kinda like Joe Stalin's atheist pogrom against his own people?

#93 | Posted by Corky at 2013-02-26 05:03 PM | Reply | Flag:

Of course, some people confuse their science for religion.

#91 | Posted by Corky at 2013-02-26 05:00 PM |

Lots of people confuse their religion for science---thinking their beliefs are factual.

#94 | Posted by Buffalo_Bob at 2013-02-26 05:05 PM | Reply | Flag:

#93

Stalin killed in the name of communism---not atheism.

#95 | Posted by Buffalo_Bob at 2013-02-26 05:06 PM | Reply | Flag:

Here ya go, ClownS... where science may actually meet metaphysics.

www.bigquestionsonline.com

#96 | Posted by Corky at 2013-02-26 05:07 PM | Reply | Flag:

"Gathering to pat each other on the back because you all believe in the same thing is a "self congratulatory circle jerk."

All the evidence around me exemplifies religious organizations are a self congratulatory circle jerk."

A religious group that gets together to bring meals to ederly shut ins migh pray at some point during their meetings but they spend most of their time working out the logistics of feeding people. I wouldn't call that a self congratulatory circle jerk. The next time I hear of an atheist group giving of themselves will be the first.

#97 | Posted by Sully at 2013-02-26 05:08 PM | Reply | Flag:

-thinking their beliefs are factual.

"Happily, the backlash against neo-atheism has begun, inspired by the cult's own intolerance.

In the Christmas issue of this magazine, Dawkins interviewed Hitchens. Halfway through, Dawkins asked:

"Do you ever worry that if we win and, so to speak, destroy Christianity, that vacuum would be filled by Islam?"

At dinner at the restaurant in Bayswater we all laughed at this, but our laughter was uneasy. The history of attempts to destroy religion is littered with the corpses of believers and unbelievers alike. There are many roads to truth, but cultish intolerance is not one of them."

"It's the intolerance, stupid." lol

#98 | Posted by Corky at 2013-02-26 05:09 PM | Reply | Flag:

What a dumb post. The history of monotheism is the history of pogroms[mass murder] against other monotheists, nontheists, polytheists, or anyone else that dares criticize the One...True...Faith.

#99 | Posted by nullifidian at 2013-02-26 05:10 PM | Reply | Flag:

"In the Christmas issue of this magazine, Dawkins interviewed Hitchens. "

Yes, you already said that KBM, ad nauseum.

#100 | Posted by nullifidian at 2013-02-26 05:12 PM | Reply | Flag:

#99

Fundamentalist theists and fundamentalist atheists (neoatheists), are two sides of the same arrogant, intolerant fundie coin.

#101 | Posted by Corky at 2013-02-26 05:13 PM | Reply | Flag:

#100 BBob was to whom I was posting, as he may not have read that.

I surely hope you don't mind.... it would hurt me so to think you did.

#103 | Posted by Corky at 2013-02-26 05:15 PM | Reply | Flag:

"The arrogance is based on using science as evidence. You consider everyone else relying on science to make arguments just as arrogant?"

The existence of a deity hasn't been disproven by science. I don't think it can be disproven by science. The problem with disproving religion is that every inconsistency can be easily explained by "magic!".

I don't find atheist beliefs to be arrogant anyway. Its more a behavior thing when they get together to 'celebrate' their atheism.

Like why would you get together and pool up money to put a "There is no God" billboard next to a church? What possible goal does that serve other than "Heheh, we showed those idiots. Let's touch ourselves."

People who do stuff like that are just jerks. If they were organizing meals on wheels and food donations to the third world and the stuff that religious groups do in addition to affirming their beliefs, that would add some "take the good with the bad" vibe to it. But I have yet to hear of one of these groups doing that.

#104 | Posted by Sully at 2013-02-26 05:16 PM | Reply | Flag:

Yes this has been minced into tiny pieces by hashing it on here but; Agnostics and Atheists are so completely different...

There are basically 3 distinct camps.
Religious - those with a defined belief system in an otherworldly power.
Agnostics - those that don't know and are not sure if it can be known whether god exists.
Atheists - those that are sure there are no gods.

We can not very easily count the religions and 'gods' out there. I mean what is a Hindu to a 'devout' Baptist? Pretty much a heathen damned to burn in hell for all eternity... Do they have a much different view of an Atheist or Agnostic? No.

So bottom line there is SURELY discrimination to both other religions and those without particular beliefs. So where is the news? Personally I avoid religious talk with others like the plague. Not much will ruin a relationship as fast as a religious disagreement. I only antagonize family with religious talk...

#105 | Posted by GalaxiePete at 2013-02-26 05:17 PM | Reply | Flag:

#104 | Posted by Sully

Surely they are jerks; but also no more so than all the religious billboards out there proclaiming the beliefs of the 'advertisers'.

#106 | Posted by GalaxiePete at 2013-02-26 05:19 PM | Reply | Flag:

" (neoatheists), "

Nothing but insults from this poster. Christians are real "liberal" until you criticize their cult, and then they want to burn you at the stake.

#107 | Posted by nullifidian at 2013-02-26 05:21 PM | Reply | Flag:

-I mean what is a Hindu to a 'devout' Baptist? Pretty much a heathen damned to burn in hell for all eternity...

To some fundie, maybe.

www.hindustantimes.com

A Christian could do worse than to read the link to the Hindu article above.
#18 | POSTED BY CORKY AT 2013-02-15 12:22 PM |

#108 | Posted by Corky at 2013-02-26 05:22 PM | Reply | Flag:

New (neo) Atheists

en.wikipedia.org

#109 | Posted by Corky at 2013-02-26 05:23 PM | Reply | Flag:

"In Afghanistan, Iran, Maldives, Mauritania, Pakistan, Saudi Arabia and Sudan..."

Did we even need to ask which countries?

#110 | Posted by Diablo at 2013-02-26 05:30 PM | Reply | Flag:

it is as stupid to be an intolerant religious fundamentalist as it is to be an intolerant neo-atheist fundamentalist."

#30 | Posted by Corky

Best quote of the week!!

Though I differ with you when it comes to politics often I will never consider you dumb

"Gathering to pat each other on the back because you all believe in the same thing is a "self congratulatory circle jerk."
83 | Posted by ClownShack

If you just add lack of belief and sneering at others for there faith
you would just described the new Evangelical Atheists movement.

#111 | Posted by PunchyPossum at 2013-02-26 05:34 PM | Reply | Flag:

What a dumb post. The history of monotheism is the history of pogroms[mass murder] against other monotheists, nontheists, polytheists, or anyone else that dares criticize the One...True...Faith.

#99 | Posted by nullifidian

Nope, what you have is a history for the struggle of power and wealth, with very powerful people who used religion for their excuse to war.
if religion never existed they still would of gone to war, they just would have to use another excuse to war.

#112 | Posted by PunchyPossum at 2013-02-26 05:44 PM | Reply | Flag:

"Surely they are jerks; but also no more so than all the religious billboards out there proclaiming the beliefs of the 'advertisers'."

Religious billboards tend to fall into two categories from what I've seen (disclaimer: I don't live down south):

1) Targetted at the general public, not towards one specific group just to grief them.

2) Targetted at sinners in an attempt to "help" them. This can be seen as conscending. But if you're visting strip club and can work up the outrage to be offended by a religious billboard some group put up next to it, you have problems. Really.

Putting up a billboard next to a church just to grief old ladies is different and alot more douchey.

#113 | Posted by Sully at 2013-02-26 05:45 PM | Reply | Flag:

Thanks, PP!

Those well-known geniuses Trey Parker and Matt Stone apparently feel the same way!

"As they told In Focus magazine a few years ago, "What we're sick of -- and it's getting even worse -- is you either like Michael Moore or you wanna f'in' go overseas and shoot Iraqis... We find just as many things to rip on the left as we do on the right. People on the far left and the far right are the same exact person to us."

Consider, too, The Book of Mormon. For a play that includes the insertion of a holy text up a missionary's rectum, it actually offers a nuanced view of religion. Mormonism may be odd, but it produces kind, thoughtful, mostly happy people. "They always look like they're just about to break out into song anyways," Stone has said.

Religion has its upsides -- a position that rankles hardcore atheists such as Richard Dawkins.

"He's such a dick," said Stone. "You read his book and you're like, 'Yeah, I agree with that. But it's the most dicky way to put it... I think the neoatheists have set atheism back a few decades. And I'm a self-described atheist."

Americans of the Year 2011 Parker and Stone - Esquire

www.esquire.com

#114 | Posted by Corky at 2013-02-26 05:45 PM | Reply | Flag:

#112 Newsworthy Flag

#115 | Posted by Corky at 2013-02-26 05:46 PM | Reply | Flag:

#65 A lack of belief... in what?

If one lacks a belief in god or gods and holds a belief in the nonexistence or impossibility of god or gods, that one is an atheist

If one lacks a belief in god or gods and do not believe god or gods do or do not exist, that one is not an atheist

That is the point. Atheist affirm that god or gods do not and/or cannot exist.

#116 | Posted by HeuristicGratis at 2013-02-26 05:47 PM | Reply | Flag:

"a position that rankles hardcore atheists such as Richard Dawkins."

I loved him on Family Feud.

:-)

#117 | Posted by eberly at 2013-02-26 05:48 PM | Reply | Flag:

"I think the neoatheists have set atheism back a few decades. And I'm a self-described atheist." - Matt Stone

That could be the Quote of the Day.

#118 | Posted by Corky at 2013-02-26 05:51 PM | Reply | Flag:

"Nope, what you have is a history for the struggle of power and wealth, with very powerful people who used religion for their excuse to war."

That explains why people were sent people to war, but why did the people fight? Because they believed the religious excuse was just.

#119 | Posted by Hagbard_Celine at 2013-02-26 05:53 PM | Reply | Flag:

-why did the people fight?

According to psychological experiments after WWII, they fought and did unimaginable things they would never normally do because they were told to by senior officers... they justified their actions by passing the responsibility up the line.

And there was no overriding "religious excuse" for the great world wars.

#120 | Posted by Corky at 2013-02-26 05:56 PM | Reply | Flag:

"they fought and did unimaginable things they would never normally do because they were told to by senior officers"

That explains why they did what they did once they signed on, not why they joined up in the first place. But the subject of the comment wasn't WWI anyway.

#121 | Posted by Hagbard_Celine at 2013-02-26 06:03 PM | Reply | Flag:

"they fought and did unimaginable things they would never normally do...."

well, yeah...but they banged some nasty whores in some nasty places....and nobody ordered them to do it.

You know.....that's not really relevant, is it?

#122 | Posted by eberly at 2013-02-26 06:05 PM | Reply | Flag:

-but why did the people fight?

-why they joined up in the first place

I've toted a few goalposts in my time, but....

I can't think of a major modern war that had an overriding "religious excuse". Help a brother out.

Or are back talking about the 12th century again?

#123 | Posted by Corky at 2013-02-26 06:08 PM | Reply | Flag:

Or are we

#124 | Posted by Corky at 2013-02-26 06:11 PM | Reply | Flag:

That explains why they did what they did once they signed on,

#121 | Posted by Hagbard_Celine a

to stop the spread of communism no to stop the dirty hun
no, because panama was used to spread drugs

so many excuses they have used to fight in the past people bought into and killed over none religious.

#125 | Posted by PunchyPossum at 2013-02-26 06:22 PM | Reply | Flag:

"Evangelical Atheists movement."

LOL!

Oxymoronic statement.

Poor victimized religious people. Are the big bad atheists on the move?

#126 | Posted by ClownShack at 2013-02-26 06:28 PM | Reply | Flag:

Christians are real "liberal" until you criticize their cult, and then they want to burn you at the stake.

#107 | POSTED BY NULLIFIDIAN AT 2013-02-26 05:21 PM | REPLY | FLAG:

Religious people are two steps away from turning America into the middle east.

Religion is only interested in control of the populous.

There was a post above about how, if Atheists dismantle christianity, islam would take over. retarded. Be scared Sheeple. your only options is christianity otherwise its ISLAM!!!!!

#127 | Posted by ClownShack at 2013-02-26 06:32 PM | Reply | Flag:

"so many excuses they have used to fight in the past people bought into and killed over none religious."

Then why are chaplains so important to the military?

#128 | Posted by Hagbard_Celine at 2013-02-26 06:37 PM | Reply | Flag:

That is the point. Atheist affirm that god or gods do not and/or cannot exist.

Nope. You're wrong. Sorry.

atheism.about.com

Under your statements, a person who simply doesn't believe in God and doesn't affirm a lack or ability to know for sure would be what?

#129 | Posted by jpw at 2013-02-26 07:06 PM | Reply | Flag:

I can't think of a major modern war that had an overriding "religious excuse". Help a brother out.

Or are back talking about the 12th century again?

Why are you attempting to set some apparently arbitrary time frame of exclusion from the discussion?

12th century history is just as relevant to the discussion as 20th century history.

#130 | Posted by jpw at 2013-02-26 07:07 PM | Reply | Flag:

"Why are you attempting to set some apparently arbitrary time frame of exclusion from the discussion?"

Making a distinction and characterizing arguments on one side of that distinction as irrelevant is a common tactic of rhetoric.

#131 | Posted by Hagbard_Celine at 2013-02-26 07:12 PM | Reply | Flag:

"I can't think of a major modern war that had an overriding "religious excuse". Help a brother out."

Gott Mit Uns ring a bell?

#132 | Posted by Zatoichi at 2013-02-26 07:15 PM | Reply | Flag:

I can't think of a major modern war that had an overriding "religious excuse". Help a brother out.

World War 2?

Or are you a holocaust denier?

#133 | Posted by ClownShack at 2013-02-26 07:16 PM | Reply | Flag:

127 | Posted by ClownShack a

because all atheists are freedom loving lefties

126 | Posted by ClownShack at

Yes "Evangelical Atheists movement."
is what the neo Atheists are.
self righteous A holes who love to sit around pat them self's on the back and think they are oh so ultra grand and superior over the mass's
because they have no God.
see Ayn Rand

then look at the Catholic workers movement

#134 | Posted by PunchyPossum at 2013-02-26 07:16 PM | Reply | Flag:

"Why are you attempting to set some apparently arbitrary time frame of exclusion from the discussion?"

because, if you ignore history it wont repeat itself? is that how the saying goes?

religion. dominating one weak minded individual at a time.

#135 | Posted by ClownShack at 2013-02-26 07:17 PM | Reply | Flag:

self righteous A holes love to sit around pat themselves on the back and think they are ultra grand and superior because they believe in God

FTFY

#136 | Posted by ClownShack at 2013-02-26 07:22 PM | Reply | Flag:

#135 | Posted by ClownShack

and once again war is really about money and power if their was no religion they would used another excuse to go to war

#137 | Posted by PunchyPossum at 2013-02-26 07:23 PM | Reply | Flag:

because all atheists are freedom loving lefties

I guess, if that's what you got out of my post. so be it.

#138 | Posted by ClownShack at 2013-02-26 07:25 PM | Reply | Flag:

FTFY

#136 | Posted by ClownShack a

great no put my post with your so called fix and you will be almost there
Evangelical Christians and Atheists are self righteous and annoying
got to go Clown have a good evening

#139 | Posted by PunchyPossum at 2013-02-26 07:28 PM | Reply | Flag:

once again war is really about money and power if their was no religion they would used another excuse to go to war
#137 | POSTED BY PUNCHYPOSSUM AT 2013-02-26 07:23 PM | REPLY |

Ah, but there is religion. And how much easier to get people to fight wars for you when they feel a personal stake involved in it.

#140 | Posted by ClownShack at 2013-02-26 07:28 PM | Reply | Flag:

Atheists are self righteous

Atheists mostly want to be left alone and not have to hear about your theism all day long.

#141 | Posted by ClownShack at 2013-02-26 07:30 PM | Reply | Flag:

-some apparently arbitrary time frame

Treating Christianity a if it is the same today as it was in the 12 century... or that wars are fought for the same reasons,(or excuses) is rhetoric in and of itself.

-Or are you a holocaust denier?

No more than you are an idiot... oh, wait...

Killing Jews was a excuse, not a rationale.

#142 | Posted by Corky at 2013-02-26 07:40 PM | Reply | Flag:

Gott Mit Uns is a claim, made by all sides no matter that they were out for land and resources, not a fact.

#143 | Posted by Corky at 2013-02-26 07:42 PM | Reply | Flag:

The totalitarian essence of monotheist ideology doesn't change, whether it be the 12th or 20th century. One Ring to Rule them All!

#144 | Posted by nullifidian at 2013-02-26 07:45 PM | Reply | Flag:

Treating Christianity a if it is the same today as it was in the 12 century... or that wars are fought for the same reasons,(or excuses) is rhetoric in and of itself.

I don't think either of those are being done on this thread.

#145 | Posted by jpw at 2013-02-26 07:50 PM | Reply | Flag:

12th century my a.... It's not surprising that the apologists for the Christian Cult want to push their hideous history as far back as possible.

Historians distinguish four different manifestations of the Christian Inquisition:[citation needed]

the Medieval Inquisition (1184–16th century), including
the Episcopal Inquisition (1184–1230s)
the Papal Inquisition (1230s) and following Christian inquisitions
the Spanish Inquisition (1478–1834)
the Portuguese Inquisition (1536–1821)
the Roman Inquisition (1542 – c. 1860)

#146 | Posted by nullifidian at 2013-02-26 07:56 PM | Reply | Flag:

It seems to me atheists are bringing this kind of backlash on themselves.

They are the ones who refuse to coexist with people of faith.

They refuse to share any space in this vast world with other religious beliefs.

It's their way, or no way.

They are the ones who are the most intolerant of all.

And they have the audacity to cry foul.

If they would just admit they are functionally another "religion" and do not merit any protection by the courts and stop their constant attacking of people who believe in a God, perhaps they'd be left alone.

Many religions have different ways of describing it, but they all mean the same thing.

What goes around, come around.

#147 | Posted by BillJohnson at 2013-02-26 07:59 PM | Reply | Flag:

When did the Christians murder Giordano Bruno, anyway? The 12th century?

#148 | Posted by nullifidian at 2013-02-26 08:01 PM | Reply | Flag:

If they would just admit they are functionally another "religion" and do not merit any protection by the courts and stop their constant attacking of people who believe in a God, perhaps they'd be left alone.

Yawn.

Are you ingrained with a Christian victim complex from birth or is it a purposeful thing?

#149 | Posted by jpw at 2013-02-26 08:04 PM | Reply | Flag:

If they would just admit they are functionally another "religion" and do not merit any protection by the courts and stop their constant attacking of people who believe in a God, perhaps they'd be left alone.

Yawn.

Are you ingrained with a Christian victim complex from birth or is it a purposeful thing?

#150 | Posted by jpw at 2013-02-26 08:04 PM | Reply | Flag:

Killing Jews was a excuse, not a rationale.

#142 | POSTED BY CORKY AT 2013-02-26 07:40 PM | REPLY | FLAG

oh, well in that case... LOL!

#151 | Posted by ClownShack at 2013-02-26 08:18 PM | Reply | Flag:

"If they would just admit they are functionally another "religion""

So you admit that "religion" is a term of insult, right? "They" are just as dumb as your cult, is what you're saying.

#152 | Posted by nullifidian at 2013-02-26 08:18 PM | Reply | Flag:

It seems to me atheists are bringing this kind of backlash on themselves.

Like Christians who refused to denounce their beliefs?

They are the ones who refuse to coexist with people of faith.

Coexist or be subordinate to fanatics? There is a difference. Why should atheists have to suffer for religious extremists beliefs? Why are gays being discriminated against in America. Religion! Try being an atheist in Pakistan. I beleive that is a capital offense. I should coexist with that?

They refuse to share any space in this vast world with other religious beliefs.

They are asking for all religions to share all spaces equally with them. You are the one who refuses equal time to all beliefs including atheism.

It's their way, or no way.

You are either with me or against me! Sounds like a pure Xtian statement to me.

They are the ones who are the most intolerant of all.

They are intolerant of intolerance. True.

And they have the audacity to cry foul.

How dare they exercise their frees speech rights!

If they would just admit they are functionally another "religion" and do not merit any protection by the courts and stop their constant attacking of people who believe in a God, perhaps they'd be left alone.

You will never leave them alone...It is in the Good Book that you must harass them. Forever. Their beliefs are not a religion as they do not believe in a God. At all. They have just gone one step further than monotheism and eliminated all gods from the equation. Does that threaten you somehow? They are not attacking you..they are the minority and they have no power to "attack" you. And they merit the same constitutional protections as you.

What goes around, come around.

Indeed! I call that Karma.

#147 | Posted by BillJohnson

seriously bill

How many professed atheists are ever elected to public office and why?

#153 | Posted by donnerboy at 2013-02-26 08:20 PM | Reply | Flag:

JPW,

"Are you ingrained with a Christian victim complex"

Oh please.

Athiests play the victim more than anyone.

They have the courts tied up playing the victim.

#154 | Posted by BillJohnson at 2013-02-26 08:20 PM | Reply | Flag:

Null,

""They" are just as dumb as your cult, is what you're saying."

You just don't get it, do you?

#155 | Posted by BillJohnson at 2013-02-26 08:22 PM | Reply | Flag:

The totalitarian essence of monotheist ideology doesn't change, whether it be the 12th or 20th century. One Ring to Rule them All!

#144 | Posted by nullifidian at 2013-02-26 07:45 PM | Reply | Flag: Still claiming that it is monotheism and not totalitarianism that is the problem.

#156 | Posted by DirkStruan at 2013-02-26 08:23 PM | Reply | Flag:

Oh please.

Athiests play the victim more than anyone.

They have the courts tied up playing the victim.

They have the courts tied up answering questions of Constitutionality.

Which wouldn't even be an issue if Christians didn't have to wear it on their sleeve and attempt to splash it all over everything outside of their homes or churches.

#157 | Posted by jpw at 2013-02-26 08:25 PM | Reply | Flag:

"You just don't get it, do you?"

Enlighten me. Christians try to discredit non-Christians by accusing them of being...horror of horrors...religious!

lol

#158 | Posted by nullifidian at 2013-02-26 08:25 PM | Reply | Flag:

They have the courts tied up answering questions of Constitutionality.

#157 | Posted by jpw at 2013-02-26 08:25 PM | Reply | Flag:

Nonsense. They are bucking against a system that was never meant to accommodate them. They are bending and stretching that system until it does so... as well they should.

#159 | Posted by DirkStruan at 2013-02-26 08:31 PM | Reply | Flag:

Enlighten me. Christians try to discredit non-Christians by accusing them of being...horror of horrors...religious!
#158 | Posted by nullifidian at 2013-02-26 08:25 PM | Reply | Flag:

Why not? The question is one of consistency. If you claim that you are not religious, when in fact you are, it changes the nature of the argument (at the very least).

#160 | Posted by DirkStruan at 2013-02-26 08:32 PM | Reply | Flag:

Custom Edit Function:

Enlighten me. Religionists try to discredit non-religionists by accusing them of being...horror of horrors...religious!

#161 | Posted by nullifidian at 2013-02-26 08:35 PM | Reply | Flag:

" If you claim that you are not religious, when in fact you are, "

Define "religious".

#162 | Posted by nullifidian at 2013-02-26 08:39 PM | Reply | Flag:

Define "religious".

#162 | Posted by nullifidian at 2013-02-26 08:39 PM | Reply | Flag:

I was not commenting on the merits of the claim. I was merely pointing out that it was a valid one: If people who claim they are not religious are religious (by whatever definition) it changes the discussion.

#163 | Posted by DirkStruan at 2013-02-26 08:44 PM | Reply | Flag:

It seems to me atheists are bringing this kind of backlash on themselves.
They are the ones who refuse to coexist with people of faith.
They refuse to share any space in this vast world with other religious beliefs.
It's their way, or no way.
They are the ones who are the most intolerant of all.
And they have the audacity to cry foul.

What are you basing any of this on?

If they would just admit they are functionally another "religion" and do not merit any protection by the courts and stop their constant attacking of people who believe in a God, perhaps they'd be left alone.
Many religions have different ways of describing it, but they all mean the same thing.
What goes around, come around.
#147 | POSTED BY BILLJOHNSON AT 2013-02-26 07:59 PM | REPLY | FLAG:

Bill, without religion you wouldn't be forcing yourself to live a life that is against your nature.

#164 | Posted by ClownShack at 2013-02-26 08:52 PM | Reply | Flag:

Mod8,

That's an interesting question.

A really good movie to watch that captures the struggle for people of faith who find they are gay is Eyes Wide Open.

(not the movie Eyes Wide Shut...completely different movie)

It is a foreign language film about a Jewish man who wants to be part of his religous community and faith and meets up with an openly gay man. He discovers the truth about himself and finds a happiness with a man he had never had before.

Very good movie.

Here's the whole problem.

Atheists refuse to accept the legimacy of the existance of religions that do not accept homosexuality. They refuse to accept the choice people who participate willingly in a religion make to reject active homosexuality. You see, it's not homosexuals that are excluded. It's the active homosexuals who are.

But, the bigger problem right now is how athiests believe those groups of willing participants should be blocked from teaching and sharing their beliefs.

I've read reviews about the movie I mentioned and it's always the same. The movie is about a homophobic relgion, etc. And they completely miss the point being about the struggle of ones right to choose their beliefs, yet finding themselves in conflict with those very beliefs.

Homosexuality is rejected by great many faiths and fat chance they're going to change any time soon.

Again, my point is that atheists demonstrate a close minded attitude as much as any other religion, but they don't want to admit it.

#165 | Posted by BillJohnson at 2013-02-26 08:55 PM | Reply | Flag:

Bill, without religion you wouldn't be forcing yourself to live a life that is against your nature.

#164 | Posted by ClownShack at 2013-02-26 08:52 PM | Reply | Flag:

Is belief in human nature your religion, then?

#166 | Posted by DirkStruan at 2013-02-26 08:57 PM | Reply | Flag:

Is belief in human nature your religion, then?
#166 | POSTED BY DIRKSTRUAN AT 2013-02-26 08:57 PM | FLAG:

Is not knowing what I'm talking about, and then interjecting your opinion part of your religions?

Yes, yes it is.

#167 | Posted by ClownShack at 2013-02-26 09:01 PM | Reply | Flag:

Mod8,

That's an interesting question.

A really good movie to watch that captures the struggle for people of faith who find they are gay is Eyes Wide Open.

(not the movie Eyes Wide Shut...completely different movie)

It is a foreign language film about a Jewish man who wants to be part of his religous community and faith and meets up with an openly gay man. He discovers the truth about himself and finds a happiness with a man he had never had before.

Very good movie.

Here's the whole problem.

Atheists refuse to accept the legitimacy of the existance of religions that do not accept homosexuality. They refuse to accept the choice people who participate willingly in a religion make to reject active homosexuality. You see, it's not homosexuals that are excluded. It's the active homosexuals who are.

But, the bigger problem right now is how athiests believe those groups of willing participants should be blocked from teaching and sharing their beliefs and that somehow it's wrong to reject the homosexual lifestyle due to some religion they are part of.

I've read reviews about the movie I mentioned and it's always the same. The movie is about a homophobic relgion, etc. And they completely miss the point being about the struggle of ones desire to choose their beliefs and part of a religious group, yet finding themselves in conflict with those very beliefs.

Homosexuality is rejected by many regligous sects and many of those groups will not change any time soon.

Again, my point is that atheists demonstrate a close minded attitude as much as any other religion, but they don't want to admit it.

#168 | Posted by BillJohnson at 2013-02-26 09:02 PM | Reply | Flag:

Homosexuality is rejected by great many faiths and fat chance they're going to change any time soon.
#165 | POSTED BY BILLJOHNSON AT 2013-02-26 08:55 PM | REPLY | FLAG:

The change is happening right here and right now in America.

Many other countries around the world already recognize homosexual marriages.

Wow what a concept!

Don't fall off your mule and buggy Bill.

#169 | Posted by ClownShack at 2013-02-26 09:04 PM | Reply | Flag:

"I was not commenting on the merits of the claim"

Yeah, but you still haven't defined "religious" or "religion."

#170 | Posted by nullifidian at 2013-02-26 09:06 PM | Reply | Flag:

Yeah, but you still haven't defined "religious" or "religion."

#170 | Posted by nullifidian at 2013-02-26 09:06 PM | Reply | Flag:

Why would I? I was not commenting on the merits of the claim.

#171 | Posted by DirkStruan at 2013-02-26 09:07 PM | Reply | Flag:

Is not knowing what I'm talking about, and then interjecting your opinion part of your religions?
#167 | Posted by ClownShack at 2013-02-26 09:01 PM | Reply | Flag:

I did not offer an opinion. I asked a question. Do you have an answer?

#172 | Posted by DirkStruan at 2013-02-26 09:09 PM | Reply | Flag:

"Is belief in human nature your religion, then?"

Define "religion." Protip: "Religion" is not a synonym of "enthusiasm" or "opinion" or whatever other deflection you can come up with.

#173 | Posted by nullifidian at 2013-02-26 09:10 PM | Reply | Flag:

"I did not offer an opinion. I asked a question. "

That's been your specialty for years.

#174 | Posted by nullifidian at 2013-02-26 09:14 PM | Reply | Flag:

Null,

I said "functionally a religion".

That means that while atheists are not formally a religion or religious, some do band together as a group, have organized structure how to promote their beliefs and some are as much on a crusade to share their beliefs, and gain supporters, as some Christians.

Of course, not all athiests.

Then again, not all Christians are evangelical like athiests seem to think.

Many Christians are very quiet about their beliefs.

My point is that some athiests have taken their beliefs to a level buying billboards and pushing for representation, they have stepped over the line and now should be treated just like a religion in the courts.

#175 | Posted by BillJohnson at 2013-02-26 09:18 PM | Reply | Flag:

Define "religion." Protip: "Religion" is not a synonym of "enthusiasm" or "opinion" or whatever other deflection you can come up with.

#173 | Posted by nullifidian at 2013-02-26 09:10 PM | Reply | Flag:

Very true. I was merely making the point that the things to which clownshack objects in religion are present in his own belief system (read the trappings of metaphysics). Obviously the (mere) belief in human nature is not a religion. Nor is atheism (even new atheism). What is important is that they are all metaphysical.

#176 | Posted by DirkStruan at 2013-02-26 09:22 PM | Reply | Flag:

"I said "functionally a religion"."

"some do band together as a group"

So banding together is the definition of religion? Your opinion isn't any more coherent than Boyd's. Isn't what you really want to say is that everything is religion, thereby avoiding all criticism?

#177 | Posted by nullifidian at 2013-02-26 09:22 PM | Reply | Flag:

That's been your specialty for years.

#174 | Posted by nullifidian at 2013-02-26 09:14 PM | Reply | Flag:

While we are making baseless assumptions, can I assume that personal attacks have been your specialty for just as long?

#178 | Posted by DirkStruan at 2013-02-26 09:23 PM | Reply | Flag:

Atheists refuse to accept the legitimacy of the existance of religions that do not accept homosexuality. They refuse to accept the choice people who participate willingly in a religion make to reject active homosexuality. You see, it's not homosexuals that are excluded. It's the active homosexuals who are.

Verbose way of saying "you're intolerant of our intolerance".

If it were only exclusion from your church, that'd be one thing IMO.

But you want to take that intolerance into the public realm which is precisely why you get in trouble.

Again, my point is that atheists demonstrate a close minded attitude as much as any other religion, but they don't want to admit it.

Rationalization of being ticked that atheists are intolerant of your intolerance.

BTW how did you get on a homosexuality rant? I didn't realize homosexuality and atheism were linked.

#179 | Posted by jpw at 2013-02-26 09:24 PM | Reply | Flag:

But you want to take that intolerance into the public realm which is precisely why you get in trouble.
#179 | Posted by jpw at 2013-02-26 09:24 PM | Reply | Flag:

Would you like to know a secret? The "private" realm is always-already intruding on the "public" one (and vice versa).

#180 | Posted by DirkStruan at 2013-02-26 09:31 PM | Reply | Flag:

" Obviously the (mere) belief in human nature is not a religion. "

Excellent. It's good not to be on the list of people-who-defend-religion-by-
claiming-everybody-is-
religious. Some of them even post here.

#181 | Posted by nullifidian at 2013-02-26 09:33 PM | Reply | Flag:

Null,

"Isn't what you really want to say is that everything is religion, thereby avoiding all criticism?"

It's not avoiding criticism.

It's that Separation of Church and State should too.

They can't just hide behind their neutral status any more.

They're not neutral.

#182 | Posted by BillJohnson at 2013-02-26 09:33 PM | Reply | Flag:

should apply to them too...I mean.

#183 | Posted by BillJohnson at 2013-02-26 09:33 PM | Reply | Flag:

Excellent. It's good not to be on the list of people-who-defend-religion-by-
claiming-everybody-is-
religious. Some of them even post here.

#181 | Posted by nullifidian at 2013-02-26 09:33 PM | Reply | Flag:

Try to be charitable. It may be that they are trying to make a claim more in line with my own: It is not that everyone is religious so much as that many/most belief systems are metaphysical and, hence, prone to totalitarian behavior (including violent behavior).

If you are referring to the crowd that claims that everyone is religious without knowing it (a believer who merely needs to come to some sort of self-understanding, be "saved" or "enlightened" or what have you), I am not sure what to say to such people. Their claims tend not to carry much weight with those outside their belief systems in any case.

#184 | Posted by DirkStruan at 2013-02-26 09:38 PM | Reply | Flag:

They're not neutral.

#182 | Posted by BillJohnson at 2013-02-26 09:33 PM | Reply | Flag:

Is anybody?

#185 | Posted by DirkStruan at 2013-02-26 09:40 PM | Reply | Flag:

#176 | POSTED BY DIRKSTRUAN AT 2013-02-26 09:22 PM | REPLY | FLAG:

Right, which is why I said you don't know what I'm talk to BillJohnson about.

#186 | Posted by ClownShack at 2013-02-26 09:41 PM | Reply | Flag:

"It's not avoiding criticism."

Well I'm just a country boy. I just can't figure out why you religious folk keep accusing atheists of being religious. I thought religious folk thought religion was a good thing, and yet you hate atheists but call them religious. Just doesn't make a darn lick of sense to me.

#187 | Posted by nullifidian at 2013-02-26 09:48 PM | Reply | Flag:

Right, which is why I said you don't know what I'm talk to BillJohnson about.

#186 | Posted by ClownShack at 2013-02-26 09:41 PM | Reply | Flag:

Does it make any difference? I think I do know what you are talking about and I realize that it is personal (?). Regardless, talk of human nature is metaphysical and, thus, shares attributes with religion, which was my point.

#188 | Posted by DirkStruan at 2013-02-26 09:53 PM | Reply | Flag:

" Regardless, talk of human nature is metaphysical "

"Human nature" is a pretty nebulous concept. No doubt about that.

#189 | Posted by nullifidian at 2013-02-26 10:04 PM | Reply | Flag:

"talk of human nature is metaphysical"

not entirely, though.

even in its infancy, cognitive neuroscience has been able to shed some light on the periphery of consciousness (eg vision & audition research), and attention & working memory, which are, by many account, intimately tied to human nature (at least in their highly-elaborated forms, as present in human animals).

there's plenty of hard evidence that is starting to illuminate parts of the so-called "human nature". there's even more work being done in social psychology that isn't as well-controlled, but nonetheless has the potential to reveal something relevant to the human condition.

"human nature" hasn't been the exclusive domain of philosophers and clergy for at least a century.

#190 | Posted by Zarathustra at 2013-02-26 10:17 PM | Reply | Flag:

I think I do know what you are talking about and I realize that it is personal (?).

then you may know what I'm talking about.

As much as I want to shout: "Bill! Stop fighting your natural instincts!! Religions is bull and you are making your existence miserable!" I respect his right to decide how he wants to live his life.

All people should be granted the right to live their lives as they see fit.

I can understand how being an atheist, living in a town that wears its theism on its sleeves could drive me insane.

#191 | Posted by ClownShack at 2013-02-26 10:20 PM | Reply | Flag:

here's a great example of bridging the gap between philosophy of mind and the quantifiable (psychometrics): www.philos.rug.nl

#192 | Posted by Zarathustra at 2013-02-26 10:36 PM | Reply | Flag:

link in 192 is a PDF, btw.

#193 | Posted by Zarathustra at 2013-02-26 10:36 PM | Reply | Flag:

"I think the neoatheists have set atheism back a few decades. And I'm a self-described atheist." - Matt Stone

Still the Quote of the Day

#194 | Posted by Corky at 2013-02-26 11:03 PM | Reply | Flag:

#193 | POSTED BY ZARATHUSTRA

where science may actually meet metaphysics.

www.bigquestionsonline.com

#195 | Posted by Corky at 2013-02-26 11:11 PM | Reply | Flag:

#195 | POSTED BY CORKY

"Metaphysics", as such, doesn't exist any more.

#196 | Posted by Zarathustra at 2013-02-26 11:16 PM | Reply | Flag:

...unless all data from the cognitive sciences (eg, eeg (lol) in vision & audition studies) let alone cognitive neurosciences (just for starters, throw PET & fMRI into that mix) are to be discounted?

#197 | Posted by Zarathustra at 2013-02-26 11:19 PM | Reply | Flag:

Would you like to know a secret? The "private" realm is always-already intruding on the "public" one (and vice versa).

Well then, by all means we shouldn't worry about it then, should we?

Might as well let everyone just try to tell everyone else how to live their life.

#198 | Posted by jpw at 2013-02-26 11:26 PM | Reply | Flag:

Zara

www.quantumconsciousness.org

www.quantumconsciousness.org

www.youtube.com

www.youtube.com

#199 | Posted by Corky at 2013-02-26 11:28 PM | Reply | Flag:

""I think the neoatheists have set atheism back a few decades. And I'm a self-described atheist." - Matt Stone

Still the Quote of the Day"

Maybe if you say it enough times you'll convince someone besides yourself.

#200 | Posted by nullifidian at 2013-02-26 11:41 PM | Reply | Flag:

Maybe if you say it enough times you'll convince someone besides yourself.

Clearly, anyone who agrees with him must be a genius.

#201 | Posted by jpw at 2013-02-26 11:45 PM | Reply | Flag:

Corky, I think "supervenience theory" (check out Jaegwon Kim) covers many of the contentions presented in the link from your #195.

I'm still not convinced that adding a "quantum-layer" to this is even necessary. I may be mistaken, but iirc at one point you mentioned Douglas Hofstrader's "Goedel, Escher, Bach": at its basest level, even an axiomatic system like arithmetic relies on an unprovable "given"; a system cannot be both consistent and complete.

All of this is limited to the realm of human understanding, which is very constrained. God, science, or whatever -- it's quite possible that the "answer" is staring us right in the face, but we simply aren't cognitively sophisticated enough to realize it.

There's preliminary evidence to suggest that nature harnesses processes that aren't directly evident to human logical capacities.

I don't know much about the intersection between biology and computer science, but cellular automata seem to capture a lot of natural phenomena quite well.

Cellular automata are guided by a deterministic rule, applied iteratively, which, under some circumstances, produces results which are chaotic (or, computationally irreducible -- in contrast to classical physics equations, eg, for the position of a dropped object).

In other words, whereas certain configurations give rise to predictable, patterned behavior, there are several which do not enjoy "computational reducibility" -- ie, you cannot plug a variable into an equation and determine the outcome of the Nth step; to the contrary, one must trace each stem of this system, and cannot make and "deterministic inferences".

Well, that's just in the binary dimension (cell is black or white, depending on the state of its neighbors). Biology is a lot more complicated than that.

The computational universe offers strong evidence for some kind of order; if you regard this as a personal "God" seems to be subjective at best, and the motive for murder at worst.

#202 | Posted by Zarathustra at 2013-02-26 11:50 PM | Reply | Flag:

"Clearly, anyone who agrees with him must be a genius."

Actually that would be a neo-genius.

#203 | Posted by nullifidian at 2013-02-26 11:53 PM | Reply | Flag:

Well, some were so butt-hurt about the use of the term, "neoatheist", that I thought they should know it was in common usage.

And that more than a few atheists agree that the arrogant intolerance of neoatheists towards people who dare to have a different belief than theirs has set their cause back, "decades".

#204 | Posted by Corky at 2013-02-27 12:00 AM | Reply | Flag:

"iirc at one point"

...in the ongoing weeks-long discussion, that is :D

#205 | Posted by Zarathustra at 2013-02-27 12:03 AM | Reply | Flag:

-we simply aren't cognitively sophisticated enough to realize it.

Some of us understand that, others know for certain things like, "there is no GOD, that is an impossibility".

And the ones who are arrogant and intolerant of others who do not share their belief are.. well, neoatheists.

#206 | Posted by Corky at 2013-02-27 12:04 AM | Reply | Flag:

"arrogant intolerance of neoatheists"

A Christian condemning intolerance. Amusing.

February 17, 1600 Giordano Bruno burned at the stake by Christians for being a neo-Christian.

#207 | Posted by nullifidian at 2013-02-27 12:11 AM | Reply | Flag:

if you haven't already, you may be interested to read about spinoza, corky.

#208 | Posted by Zarathustra at 2013-02-27 12:12 AM | Reply | Flag:

he's an interesting character, if nothing else :D

#209 | Posted by Zarathustra at 2013-02-27 12:15 AM | Reply | Flag:

"not entirely, though.

there's plenty of hard evidence that is starting to illuminate parts of the so-called "human nature". there's even more work being done in social psychology that isn't as well-controlled, but nonetheless has the potential to reveal something relevant to the human condition."

The nature of "hard evidence" is itself shot through with metaphysical baggage.

'"human nature" hasn't been the exclusive domain of philosophers and clergy for at least a century.'

This is true. Nonetheless, it continues to be articulated in a very metaphysical light (not least by the scientists you mention).

#210 | Posted by DirkStruan at 2013-02-27 12:18 AM | Reply | Flag:

#210 | POSTED BY DIRKSTRUAN

are you speaking of the mereological fallacy?

you may be interested in:

dennett & searle (whoda' thunk it?)

vs

bennett & hacker

ernstchan.com (PDF)

#211 | Posted by Zarathustra at 2013-02-27 12:21 AM | Reply | Flag:

Well then, by all means we shouldn't worry about it then, should we?

Might as well let everyone just try to tell everyone else how to live their life.

#198 | Posted by jpw at 2013-02-26 11:26 PM | Reply | Flag:

Stop whining. There was nothing in my post that suggested "we should all just give up." I was merely pointing out that there is no neutral space in which to engage with these questions.

#212 | Posted by DirkStruan at 2013-02-27 12:24 AM | Reply | Flag:

also, explain:

"The nature of "hard evidence" is itself shot through with metaphysical baggage"

#213 | Posted by Zarathustra at 2013-02-27 12:25 AM | Reply | Flag:

I agree, p < .05 is arbitrary metaphysical baggage.

that's why i'm bayesian.

#214 | Posted by Zarathustra at 2013-02-27 12:28 AM | Reply | Flag:

just pretend that 214 doesnt answer 213.

#215 | Posted by Zarathustra at 2013-02-27 12:31 AM | Reply | Flag:

anyway, wiki-hints are as follows:

neyman-pearson vs fischerian traditions for inferential statistics

vs

bayesian statistics (recently given street cred by OG Nate Silver)

#216 | Posted by Zarathustra at 2013-02-27 12:39 AM | Reply | Flag:

Stop whining. There was nothing in my post that suggested "we should all just give up." I was merely pointing out that there is no neutral space in which to engage with these questions.

Not whining, just pointing out the obvious in response to your statement of the obvious, that this is a balance of the sides pushing against each other.

That's all we can do as the only alternative is what my post said.

#217 | Posted by jpw at 2013-02-27 12:48 AM | Reply | Flag:

"I didn't realize homosexuality and atheism were linked."

'Until one summer night in Providence..I was alone and confused whether to go to Harvard Law School or Stanford Business School...and then, he showed up..."

Barney Frank

#218 | Posted by Diablo at 2013-02-27 01:11 AM | Reply | Flag:

"Not whining, just pointing out the obvious in response to your statement of the obvious, "

There was nothing obvious about your response. Nor was my statement a statement of the obvious. The existence of a neutral public space is one of the great conceits of liberalism and even a cursory glance at the current literature on the subject (to say nothing of the banter outside of the Academy) reveals that the controversy is alive and well.

"that this is a balance of the sides pushing against each other. "

What on Earth are you talking about? Even if we accept the existence of "sides," they certainly do not "balance out" and create a neutral space. The spaces at issue are always-already construed in advance and they are anything but neutral.

"That's all we can do as the only alternative is what my post said."

So, our options are to "balance each other out" or go to war? Really? How depressing to know that discourse and mutual tolerance are out of the question!

#219 | Posted by DirkStruan at 2013-02-27 01:14 AM | Reply | Flag:

also, explain:
"The nature of "hard evidence" is itself shot through with metaphysical baggage"

#213 | Posted by Zarathustra at 2013-02-27 12:25 AM | Reply | Flag:

Why do I get the sense we are at cross purposes here?

My point was merely that evidenciary standards are cultural artifacts (which does not make them "arbitrary" but rather "contingent") as is the preference for evidence-based reasoning etc.

#220 | Posted by DirkStruan at 2013-02-27 01:20 AM | Reply | Flag:

Ya I got in a heap of trouble for telling the DUI instructer that Alcholoics Anonymous is BullSHI^T. When your ONLY answer/cure for a disease, as a DOCTOR mind you, is GOD; your pretty bad Doctor.

#221 | Posted by GotTruth at 2013-02-27 01:55 AM | Reply | Flag:

There was nothing obvious about your response. Nor was my statement a statement of the obvious.

You're right about the first part. There was more in my head than I posted.

On the second, you're not correct. Your statement was obvious and it certainly isn't a secret I need to get let in on that the private and public realms intrude into each others' space.

What on Earth are you talking about? Even if we accept the existence of "sides," they certainly do not "balance out" and create a neutral space.

What are you talking about? I was referring to the fact that the extent of intrusion from either side is the result of debates such as what we are having. Are you really as dense as you're coming across as or are you just stuck on this neutral space idea?

So, our options are to "balance each other out" or go to war? Really? How depressing to know that discourse and mutual tolerance are out of the question!

Where do you get go to war from?

Our options are either to push back when we think intrusions are happening we disagree with or accept the intrusion and do nothing.

Both of which include discourse and tolerance.

#222 | Posted by jpw at 2013-02-27 02:22 AM | Reply | Flag:

#129 a-theism (atheism) means No god or gods.

That is an affirmation that there is no god and/or gods.

A-gnostic (agnostic) means no knowledge.

That is a position of no knowledge or way to know whether god or gods exist

If you simply don't believe in god or gods (as in trust in them) that is not atheism.

If you don't believe in god or gods (as in don't believe they exist) that is atheism. An affirmation that god or gods do not exist.

If you don't believe anything about god or gods, in that you have no thoughts about their existence, you would fall into agnosticism as you don't know whether they exist or not. You are not in a position of knowledge as to whether god or gods exist.

If you know they do not exist, you are an atheist. An affirmation that god or gods do not exist.

If you do not know whether they exist, you are an agnostic. An affirmation that you don't know whether god or gods exist

If you know they exist, you are a theist. An affirmation that god or gods do exist.

#223 | Posted by HeuristicGratis at 2013-02-27 08:58 AM | Reply | Flag:

Other than "cogito ergo sum" all affirmations of knowledge is on a sliding scale of some fraction of doubt--lesser to greater.

The criteria required before accepting something as true well as the degree of doubt one is comfortable with before accepting an affirmation is up to the individual.

Most of us aggregate somewhere in the middle sharing a common acceptance of truth. Still, the edges are fuzzy and disagreements exist among us--as this site well knows. Most of us, however, consider the outliers on either side (doubting everything or believing anything) to be crazy.

We make countless leaps of faith every day (assumptions about relationships, truth, and our existence, etc.) in our practical, personal and intellectual lives. Most are so small and become so routine that we do not notice. Some we struggle with on a day to day basis and some appear to be such a great span over an abyss that we think there may be no other side to land on so we refuse to make them.

A belief in a deity is short jump for some and and impossible leap for others. It is a calculation of risk.

Being human is navigating this journey through all these leaps, great and small.

#224 | Posted by Grendel at 2013-02-27 09:36 AM | Reply | Flag:

BTW - Before I read this article, I was unaware of the existence of "freethinkers". I had no idea that anyone would be so buttholish as to try and own a term like "free thinker". It would be like a new Christian sect naming themselves "goodpeople". I'm sure "freethinkers" wouldn't find anything wrong or arrogant or ridicluous about that....

#225 | Posted by Sully at 2013-02-27 09:50 AM | Reply | Flag:

My point was merely that evidenciary standards are cultural artifacts (which does not make them "arbitrary" but rather "contingent") as is the preference for evidence-based reasoning etc.

#220 | POSTED BY DIRKSTRUAN AT 2013-02-27 01:20 AM | FLAG:

p < .05 -> publish.

I see a lot of that attitude every day. completely arbitrary criterion, btw. we've got to have some kind of yard-stick, though, while the Bayes thing catches on.

Not sure you have a point at all..?

#226 | Posted by Zarathustra at 2013-02-27 09:54 AM | Reply | Flag:

"I see a lot of that attitude every day. completely arbitrary criterion, btw. we've got to have some kind of yard-stick, though, while the Bayes thing catches on."

We swim in a sea of post-modernism. Nothing is true, everything is contingent. At least that's what the post-modernists say.

#227 | Posted by nullifidian at 2013-02-27 10:05 AM | Reply | Flag:

At least that's what the post-modernists say.

#227 | POSTED BY NULLIFIDIAN

I thought they'd be done after freshman year, but they're still around, somehow. the term itself is just a pretentious, meaningless label.

#228 | Posted by Zarathustra at 2013-02-27 10:11 AM | Reply | Flag:

We swim in a sea of post-modernism. Nothing is true, everything is contingent. At least that's what the post-modernists say.

The greatest ironic and illogical statement of post modernism is: "Nothing is true."

#229 | Posted by Grendel at 2013-02-27 10:13 AM | Reply | Flag:

try joining the local moose lodge. they don't accept atheists. it is on their application form!

#230 | Posted by visiter at 2013-02-27 10:17 AM | Reply | Flag:

try joining the local moose lodge. they don't accept atheists. it is on their application form

.
Neither will the Boy Scouts.

#231 | Posted by CalifChris at 2013-02-27 10:35 AM | Reply | Flag:

#225 I am surprised that you have not heard of the "free thinkers" before. They have been around since the "New Age" groups started popping up.

#232 | Posted by HeuristicGratis at 2013-02-27 10:50 AM | Reply | Flag:

"try joining the local moose lodge. they don't accept atheists. it is on their application form!"

I have a friend who was raised without a religion and he's an Elk. He just left that question blank on the questionaire and they didn't say anything about it. If they want you to join and you're not a jerk about it, you can be an atheist.

#233 | Posted by Sully at 2013-02-27 10:51 AM | Reply | Flag:

"If they want you to join and you're not a jerk about it, you can be an atheist."

Being "a jerk about it" defined as honestly answering a question on an application for admission? By closeting one's self?

#234 | Posted by Hagbard_Celine at 2013-02-27 10:55 AM | Reply | Flag:

#234 should read: "By refusing to closet one's self?"

#235 | Posted by Hagbard_Celine at 2013-02-27 10:58 AM | Reply | Flag:

The greatest ironic and illogical statement of post modernism is: "Nothing is true."

#229 | Posted by Grendel at 2013-02-27 10:13 AM | Reply | Flag:

Postmodernism (which is not monolithic, in any case) says no such thing. Saying that truth is contingent is not the same thing as saying that there is no truth.

#236 | Posted by DirkStruan at 2013-02-27 10:58 AM | Reply | Flag:

We swim in a sea of post-modernism. Nothing is true, everything is contingent. At least that's what the post-modernists say.

#227 | Posted by nullifidian at 2013-02-27 10:05 AM | Reply | Flag:Waging war against the moral relativists in his head.

#237 | Posted by DirkStruan at 2013-02-27 11:00 AM | Reply | Flag:

"I thought they'd be done after freshman year, but they're still around, somehow."

Do you have any actual criticisms?

"the term itself is just a pretentious, meaningless label."

The label is, admittedly, a bit confused, but it is hardly meaningless. Thinkers called postmodernist tend to share an antiessentialist suspicion of the absolutism of the Plato-to-Kant canon that finds itself most recently expressed in Modernity, hence the label.

#238 | Posted by DirkStruan at 2013-02-27 11:07 AM | Reply | Flag:

"On the second, you're not correct. Your statement was obvious and it certainly isn't a secret I need to get let in on that the private and public realms intrude into each others' space."

My statement was clearly not obvious, since you persist in misunderstanding it. Intrude might have been a poor choice of words on my part. The point, more correctly, is that the separation of the public and the private does not acknowledge the degree to which both are always-already wrapped up in each other. There is no neutral public sphere and, more, there cannot be.

"What are you talking about? I was referring to the fact that the extent of intrusion from either side is the result of debates such as what we are having."

Which merely proves that you missed my point. You believe in easily separable public and private spaces that need to be guarded against intrusions.

"Where do you get go to war from?"

Presumably from this neutral space you seem to believe in.

"Our options are either to push back when we think intrusions are happening we disagree with or accept the intrusion and do nothing."

There is no intrusion because the spaces at issue are not the hermetically sealed compartments you seem to think they are. The (so-called) public sphere is always-already constituted by (so-called) private sphere contamination.

Fighting against supposed intrusion is just another effort to ground one's desire to repress this or that group in the interest of broader social health (the preservation of supposedly neutral spaces).

#239 | Posted by DirkStruan at 2013-02-27 11:18 AM | Reply | Flag:

"Being "a jerk about it" defined as honestly answering a question on an application for admission? By closeting one's self?"

Leaving it blank was the most honest answer he could give. He doesn't go around saying he's an atheist. He doesn't talk about religion at all.

#240 | Posted by Sully at 2013-02-27 12:06 PM | Reply | Flag:

Yeah, if atheists would just keep their beliefs to themselves and leave the public square to the God Squad there wouldn't any problem.

#4 | POSTED BY NULLIFIDIAN AT 2013-02-26 09:29 AM

I thought the point was that atheists don't have "beliefs". Are they a religion or not?

#241 | Posted by T_Man at 2013-02-27 12:14 PM | Reply | Flag:

Postmodernism (which is not monolithic, in any case) says no such thing. Saying that truth is contingent is not the same thing as saying that there is no truth.

A distinction without a real difference.

Do postmodernists believe in absolute truth?

Postmodernism "affirms that whatever we accept as truth and even the way we envision truth are dependent on the community in which we participate . . . There is no absolute truth: rather truth is relative to the community in which we participate."

Grenz, S. J., A Primer on Postmodernism

"There is no absolute truth," said Grenz absolutely.

#242 | Posted by Grendel at 2013-02-27 01:41 PM | Reply | Flag:

I see a lot of oversimplification here.

If you know they do not exist, you are an atheist. An affirmation that god or gods do not exist.
If you do not know whether they exist, you are an agnostic. An affirmation that you don't know whether god or gods exist
If you know they exist, you are a theist. An affirmation that god or gods do exist.
#223 | POSTED BY HEURISTICGRATIS AT 2013-02-27 08:58 AM | FLAG:

I am agnostic. If you ask me about the Christian god, you would think I was an atheist. I do not believe in him, any more than Zeus or Poseidon. Possibly less than Odin, since I kind of like that one. Definitely less than Bacchus ;). The thing is, talking snakes and deity-ordained genocide just don't get me in that worshipful state. However, in a world where matter is nothing but our perception of a transient state of energy, where everything we perceive is interconnected empty space, I do not have a problem with a creative force, a possible higher dimensional being. It's just as likely as the multiverse. But it is not some bearded, patriarchal, gay-hating old man with a problem with shrimp skewers. So, I live my life like an atheist. Like someone who only has one chance to get it right, and to enjoy this moment of consciousness. I dislike religion, because it acts like things can be put right later - after death: too late. Yet, I am not an atheist. I do not know there is/are no god(s).

#243 | Posted by zeropointnrg at 2013-02-27 01:52 PM | Reply | Flag:

#243 Why do you presuppose one would not expect to hear such things from an agnostic? Just because one does not know some thing does not insinuate I should expect them to have no opinion of the matter.

I would not be surprised to hear an agnostic say anything you mentioned. I would expect them to be honest enough to say that they don't or can't know whether god or gods exist or whether that they say about god or gods is true.

You made my point rather than dismissed it.

#244 | Posted by HeuristicGratis at 2013-02-27 02:00 PM | Reply | Flag:

Because I argue that it is more of a sliding scale. You try to pin down these three distinct position, and assign from semantics.

Mine is more a soft atheism than agnosticism. I do not know - but so far, no one has managed to invent any deities I do believe in, making me a-theist. Without god. It is not a hardline atheist stance either, stating that there can be no gods.

So if you wish to argue semantics, I am both atheist and agnostic, but not Atheist with a capital A, and not without wonder and curiosity, either.

Anti-religious and pro-secular community, also. A full belief in morality without absolutes - as merely a human-ceated artifice, a product to keep culture running, that is in fact desirous to follow, as morals provide satisfaction and deeper happiness than the common results of violence and shallowness. We are a social animal, that evolved to draw satisfaction and evolutionary success as such. And I make that point because we do not need religion or gods.

#245 | Posted by zeropointnrg at 2013-02-27 02:25 PM | Reply | Flag:

...So, I live my life like an atheist. Like someone who only has one chance to get it right, and to enjoy this moment of consciousness....

Posted by zeropointnrg at 2013-02-27 01:52 PM


I don't pretend to know the answer, but I'd like to believe there is something else after we leave this life. If not actually a "Heaven" to go to then perhaps some reincarnation of the soul into yet another human being.

And is it not possible the soul is but a form of "electrical energy" that once extinguished in one human form (by death) moves on and re-energizes into yet another one so in essence we (through our soul) go on living throughout time?

The one question I have is once we have passed on and either do go to Heaven or re-energize into living another human life after this one has ceased -- will we forget everything from our past life? All the memories and the people we knew? I would rather all the memories we had in this life -- and all the lessons learned -- wouldn't be erased forever. But I suppose that's just the simple human emotional side of me talking.

Probably didn't explain myself well at all, but maybe you can figure out at least some of what I'm trying to say.

#246 | Posted by CalifChris at 2013-02-27 02:28 PM | Reply | Flag:

#243 | Posted by zeropointnrg

Reading your posts is like reading my own--but extended--since I stick to two sentences, ergo, a big newsworthy flag for that one.

#247 | Posted by nullifidian at 2013-02-27 02:28 PM | Reply | Flag:

Probably didn't explain myself well at all, but maybe you can figure out at least some of what I'm trying to say.
#246 | POSTED BY CALIFCHRIS

Good post. I understand what you're saying and agree with the sentiment. It's one of those things that I say to myself "You know, it would be nice...", but Occum's Razor jumps in and interrupts that thought process for me every time - the simplest answer probably is the right one. Or IOW, the simplest explanation to the question of life after death is that there isn't one.

I try to relate the feeling to when you go under for surgery or for heavy dental work. When you get all gassed up, you don't even realize that you fall unconscious. The lights simply go dark and you're out. IMO, that's how death will go - you might have a sinking feeling that it's time, but when it's really time, you won't have the capacity to recognize or acknowledge it.

#248 | Posted by rstybeach11 at 2013-02-27 02:34 PM | Reply | Flag:

Thanks, Nulli. Lol, probably why I like reading yours and keep thinking, wow, that reads like my own, only much more succinct and to the point. :)

#249 | Posted by zeropointnrg at 2013-02-27 02:41 PM | Reply | Flag:

"So if you wish to argue semantics, I am both atheist and agnostic, but not Atheist with a capital A, and not without wonder and curiosity, either."

Even those evil "neo-atheists" like Hitchens and Harris have talked about numinous experiences.

#250 | Posted by nullifidian at 2013-02-27 02:57 PM | Reply | Flag:

Those religious just won't stop their hating. That's so sad,to hate people because their able to think for themselves.

What's this world coming too?

#251 | Posted by truthteller101 at 2013-02-27 02:58 PM | Reply | Flag:

And CC, I understand what you're saying, and have no problem with it. I think everyone wants that, that you would have to be suicidal or mentally ill not to wish that. On many levels, I have no problem with such even - there's nothing saying that something like that is impossible.

It's religion I have the problem with, not spirituality and not philosophy. Dogma, and assumption of knowledge, tribalism, us vs. them mentalities.

Consider this, for instance. I want to live forever. Not as an old man, young, with vigor. Despite all the people who say no, we're meant to die, it would get old, what about new generations?, blah, blah, blah. Then you ask those same people, and most of them want to go to heaven, and live with God and their loved ones forever, in an eternally young, vigorous body. They believe they will. An assumption, and a hope, without evidence. Faith. Yet in an era of gene therapy and the human genome project, computers following Moore's law, practically no one is investing in trying to overcome aging, when our technology is at the cusp of understanding and having the capacity to - for the first time in all of history - defeat it. Halt it. Actual immortality, barring accidents or fatal ennui, anyway. I blame religion in large part for this. If people would let go of their superstitions, imagine what they could grasp for?

#252 | Posted by zeropointnrg at 2013-02-27 03:01 PM | Reply | Flag:

#245 Who says you do "need" them? Of course if the physical worlds is dependent on an intelligent beings providence you do need them.

Etymologically you may not need them, but ontologically you may need them, if they existent.

If no absolutes or ontological purposes, satisfaction is a fools delight, a delusion and nothing more.

#253 | Posted by HeuristicGratis at 2013-02-27 03:09 PM | Reply | Flag:

If no absolutes or ontological purposes, satisfaction is a fools delight, a delusion and nothing more.
#253 | POSTED BY HEURISTICGRATIS AT 2013-02-27 03:09 PM | FLAG:

Poetic, but underestimates the drive of neurochemistry. Dopamine and oxytocin make a bizarre and messy mating act a symphony of sensation, nuance and meaning. Love - neurochemically induced - makes her gelatinous visual sensory organs beautiful to me, induces a smile when I catch them. These things are subjective. Meaningless in the grand scheme, if you worry about objectivity. Indescribably powerful, motivating in the moment. Subjective. All meaning is subjective.

#254 | Posted by zeropointnrg at 2013-02-27 03:30 PM | Reply | Flag:

"In Afghanistan, Iran, Maldives, Mauritania, Pakistan, Saudi Arabia and Sudan "atheists can face the death penalty on the grounds of their belief" although this was in violation of U.N. human rights accords, the IHEU said."

All of those countries are Muslim, what a surprise. I wonder if the U.N. is going to do anything? Anybody wanna take bets?

#255 | Posted by boaz at 2013-02-27 03:37 PM | Reply | Flag:

" Indescribably powerful, motivating in the moment."

Ever heard the phrase, "the felt presence of direct experience"?

#256 | Posted by nullifidian at 2013-02-27 03:37 PM | Reply | Flag:

#254 A priori

#257 | Posted by HeuristicGratis at 2013-02-27 03:38 PM | Reply | Flag:

A pistole.

www.gunsandammo.info

#258 | Posted by madscientist at 2013-02-27 03:41 PM | Reply | Flag:

"A pistole."

Also known as a LAPD sex toy.

#259 | Posted by nullifidian at 2013-02-27 03:44 PM | Reply | Flag:

FF ☺

A posteriori.

doubleyourgains.com

#260 | Posted by madscientist at 2013-02-27 03:46 PM | Reply | Flag:

laughing my own far less attractive posterior off! Thanks madscientist!

Nulli, no, I haven't.

Heur, I'm not sure if you're trying to say the nature of my argument invalidates it, or what, quite honestly. Expand, please. I was looking for a metaphor, saying that the most profound drives we experience, the most meaningful moments, they can be reduced to nothing but a few quaint chemical reactions in the brain, which really have no meaning - yet we still experience the profound. I don't think humans can really experience the objective, making one ask, can the objective even be real? At least to us?

#261 | Posted by zeropointnrg at 2013-02-27 03:55 PM | Reply | Flag:

The felt presence of direct experience...

www.youtube.com

#262 | Posted by nullifidian at 2013-02-27 04:05 PM | Reply | Flag:

I've toted a few goalposts in my time, but....
I can't think of a major modern war that had an overriding "religious excuse". Help a brother out.
Or are back talking about the 12th century again?

#123 | POSTED BY CORKY AT 2013-02-26 06:08 PM | REPLY | FLAG:

Japan, world war 2.

#263 | Posted by soheifox at 2013-02-27 04:56 PM | Reply | Flag:

Atheists have no invisible man friend!
An some think these people are strange.

#264 | Posted by truthteller101 at 2013-02-27 05:16 PM | Reply | Flag:

Sherman: What will you do to win the votes of the Americans who are atheists?

Bush: I guess I'm pretty weak in the atheist community. Faith in God is important to me.

Sherman: Surely you recognize the equal citizenship and patriotism of Americans who are atheists?

Bush: No, I don't know that atheists should be considered as citizens, nor should they be considered patriots. This is one nation under God.

Sherman (somewhat taken aback): Do you support as a sound constitutional principle the separation of state and church?

Bush: Yes, I support the separation of church and state. I'm just not very high on atheists.

www.positiveatheism.org

#265 | Posted by ichiro at 2013-02-27 08:29 PM | Reply | Flag:

"A distinction without a real difference."

The fact that you cannot see a difference does not mean that there is no difference.

'"There is no absolute truth," said Grenz absolutely.'

Now it is you who are making distinctions without differences. If one's sole metaphysical position was "all truth (other than this truth) is subjective" your objection would be bypassed and the results would be the same. So much for your argument from consistency.

Regardless, postmodernists do not treat the claim "there is no absolute truth" as absolute. The claim itself is necessarily a product of contingency. Perhaps you should stop reading "The Idiots Guide to Postmodernism" and actually dust off a few primary sources.

#266 | Posted by DirkStruan at 2013-02-27 08:33 PM | Reply | Flag:

"atheists commonly claim that they have no beliefs, so how can they be discriminated against based on beliefs that they supposedly do not have?"

One of the foundations of religious toleration is the assumption that those being tolerated have reason to fear for their soul if they do not adhere to their religion.

Have atheists such a fear?

#267 | Posted by Tor at 2013-02-27 08:37 PM | Reply | Flag:

One of the foundations of religious toleration is the assumption that those being tolerated have reason to fear for their soul if they do not adhere to their religion.

Have atheists such a fear?

#267 | Posted by Tor at 2013-02-27 08:37 PM | Reply | Flag:

People do not articulate matters in that way anymore. It is not about fear for your soul, it is about "conscience." Surely that can apply just as well to atheists as theists.

#268 | Posted by DirkStruan at 2013-02-27 08:45 PM | Reply | Flag:

"People do not articulate matters in that way anymore."

I'm sure you speak for humanity.

#269 | Posted by Tor at 2013-02-27 09:17 PM | Reply | Flag:

An still some people hang on to their filthy bible books. What you people need is a new book,isn't it time to pick a new invisible man? Why not an invisible woman this time around. It's better to play make believe when you have an up to date invisible friend.

#270 | Posted by truthteller101 at 2013-02-27 09:45 PM | Reply | Flag:

and the winner is .............! #268!

#271 | Posted by ichiro at 2013-02-28 04:53 PM | Reply | Flag:

People do not articulate matters in that way anymore. It is not about fear for your soul, it is about "conscience." Surely that can apply just as well to atheists as theists.

#268 | Posted by DirkStruan

why does any of that cause the religious to discriminate against atheists?

#272 | Posted by donnerboy at 2013-02-28 05:30 PM | Reply | Flag:

i guess, to the religious, conscience = God.

#273 | Posted by ichiro at 2013-02-28 10:20 PM | Reply | Flag:

why did President George H.W, Bush say atheists were neither patriots nor citizens?

#274 | Posted by ichiro at 2013-02-28 10:24 PM | Reply | Flag:

If you believe in life after death, and a god, you are going to be more easily led, and, particularly in an imperialistic empire like ours, useful. Why? Those who believe death is not final will be more willing to throw their lives away for a cause. Believe in an ultimate authority, and will bend the neck more easily to other sources of authority.

Spirituality is about wonder, curiosity, the desire for something more, to be part of something larger. Religion? Well, that one has always really been about control.

#275 | Posted by zeropointnrg at 2013-02-28 10:53 PM | Reply | Flag:

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