Drudge Retort: The Other Side of the News
Tuesday, February 26, 2013

National Journal: As Republicans rebound from the 2012 election and plot their future, an uncomfortable debate over gay rights is taking place. Some party leaders are promoting a more inclusive approach to help the GOP modernize its image and reach across the generational divide. ... Yet even as Republicans are increasingly willing to consider more-moderate immigration policies to bridge the gap with the Hispanic community, accepting same-sex marriage is more complicated.

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Doc_Sarvis

 

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National Journal's Political Insiders survey last month found that nearly half of Republicans think the topic should be avoided. Nearly three out of 10 said they support same-sex marriage, while only 11 percent are opposed. That's a big departure from 2009, when half of the Republican Insiders said the party should oppose gay marriage. ...

Gay marriage opponents warn of consequences if Republicans retreat from championing traditional marriage.

"I don't think that's a constructive attitude to take because Republican officials cannot win without social conservatives," said Peter Sprigg, a senior fellow for policy studies at the Family Research Council. "They are the core base of the Republican Party and the most active volunteers, and it would make no sense to turn their backs on them."

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The piece concludes:

Still, gay Republicans feel excluded from most conservative corners, including the high-profile CPAC conference last month that will showcase likely presidential contenders and other rising stars in the party. Angelo said the Log Cabin Republicans have asked to participate in the past but didn't this year because it prefers to "choose its battles." Another gay group, GOProud, was barred from last year's event after some social conservatives boycotted.

"If people are concerned about the future of the conservative movement, they know we need to broaden our appeal," said the group's executive director Jimmy LaSalvia. "They need to deal with the political reality of this issue, and beating the drum against gay marriage is a political loser."

#1 | Posted by Doc_Sarvis at 2013-02-26 09:03 AM | Reply | Flag:

"They need to deal with the political reality of this issue, and beating the drum against gay marriage is a political loser."

Seems like that is only true on the national level. In many states, or with the right gerrymandering, arguing against gay marriage is solid gold political wisdom on the local level.

#2 | Posted by Hagbard_Celine at 2013-02-26 09:20 AM | Reply | Flag:

Agreed, Hagbard. It's really linked to the basic argument Thomas Frank lays out in What's the Matter with Kansas: How Conservatives Won the Heart of America.

#3 | Posted by Doc_Sarvis at 2013-02-26 09:28 AM | Reply | Flag:

DOC do you belong to some "Republicans suck" news feed?

#4 | Posted by paneocon at 2013-02-26 09:29 AM | Reply | Flag:

"DOC do you belong to some "Republicans suck" news feed?A"

I understand the truth must be a terrible thing for you to face each day, and I sympathize. If I belonged to a prayer circle I'd gladly give you some bandwidth.

#5 | Posted by Doc_Sarvis at 2013-02-26 09:31 AM | Reply | Flag:

Panecon, what makes your bleats (unintentionally) hilarious is that much of what I've posted recently comes from - wait for it, kid, wait for it - Republicans.

Not your kind of Republicans, to be sure. But Republicans in the sense of informed, intelligent, aware folk who realize the loons have transformed their formerly legitimate political vehicle into a risible Klown Kar and driven it into a swamp.

#6 | Posted by Doc_Sarvis at 2013-02-26 09:34 AM | Reply | Flag:

much of what I've posted recently comes from - wait for it, kid, wait for it - Republicans
#6 | POSTED BY DOC_SARVIS

There in lies the problem.

But Republicans in the sense of informed, intelligent, aware folk who realize the loons have transformed their formerly legitimate political vehicle into a risible Klown Kar and driven it into a swamp.
#6 | POSTED BY DOC_SARVIS

Oh the Republicans of big government, big banks, big business, big deficits? Those Republicans? No thanks, not buying.

#7 | Posted by paneocon at 2013-02-26 09:42 AM | Reply | Flag:

Agreed, Hagbard. It's really linked to the basic argument Thomas Frank lays out in What's the Matter with Kansas: How Conservatives Won the Heart of America. #3 | Posted by Doc_Sarvis

I read that one. I think they're actually okay with that. They're able to control things on the local level and can keep doing what they do nationally as long as they filter that through the language of across the aisle cooperation.

#8 | Posted by Hagbard_Celine at 2013-02-26 09:45 AM | Reply | Flag:

Oh the Republicans of big government, big banks, big business, big deficits? Those Republicans? No thanks, not buying.

#7 | Posted by paneocon at 2013-02-26 09:42

Wrong level of analysis. The temperament of the Republican Party is what's of interest. How and why did "Stomp On Him Till His Brain Swells" become an appropriate model for American politics?

#9 | Posted by Zed at 2013-02-26 09:51 AM | Reply | Flag:

Agreed, Hagbard. It's really linked to the basic argument Thomas Frank lays out in What's the Matter with Kansas: How Conservatives Won the Heart of America. #3 | Posted by Doc_Sarvis

I read that one. I think they're actually okay with that. They're able to control things on the local level and can keep doing what they do nationally as long as they filter that through the language of across the aisle cooperation.
#8 | Posted by Hagbard_Celine

Absolutely. Look at, well, Kansas. The people in the state with a government run by Brownbackers appear to be cruising for one hell of bruising. Seize control of the party apparatus at the the localized level in a state where one party has long exerted control and you have the makings of either a renaissance of a collapsed souffle. In this case, it's the latter.

#10 | Posted by Doc_Sarvis at 2013-02-26 09:54 AM | Reply | Flag:

#7 | Posted by paneocon at 2013-02-26 09:42

If you want to understand why Blacks abd Hispanics don't flock to the alleged better ideas of modern Republicanism, you need to understand that they have more direct experience than most with rednecks.

They see, correctly, that no matter what suit a redneck puts on he remains a redneck. The issue isn't the packaging, its the redneckism- the inflexible, hostile attitude.

#11 | Posted by Zed at 2013-02-26 09:55 AM | Reply | Flag:

The issue isn't the packaging, its the redneckism- the inflexible, hostile attitude.
#11 | POSTED BY ZED

Like slavery, Jim Crow laws, Women's suffrage, Civil Rights Act of 1964?

#12 | Posted by paneocon at 2013-02-26 10:00 AM | Reply | Flag:

"much of what I've posted recently comes from - wait for it, kid, wait for it - Republicans."
#6 | Posted by Doc_Sarvis

'much of what I've posted recently comes from - wait for it, kid, wait for it - left wing hacks who happen to call themselves Republicans'

FTFY

#13 | Posted by KBM at 2013-02-26 10:04 AM | Reply | Flag:

Like slavery, Jim Crow laws, Women's suffrage, Civil Rights Act of 1964?
#12 | Posted by paneocon

Slavery? You mean, as in nearly 150 years ago?

Jim Crow laws? You mean the stuff the Southerners put into effect when the GOP abandoned the former slaves to the not so tender mercies of their former masters in order to win the corrupted 1876 presidential election?

Civil Rights Act? That the same one LBJ said him signing would lose the South for the Democrats?

Puhleeeeeze.

#14 | Posted by Doc_Sarvis at 2013-02-26 10:07 AM | Reply | Flag:

Like slavery, Jim Crow laws, Women's suffrage, Civil Rights Act of 1964?

#12 | Posted by paneocon at 2013-02-26

1) I've had (more than once) conservative Libertarians, who vote Republican, decline to condemn slavery.

2) The voter suppression attempts of last year looked a lot like Jim Crow to millions.

3) See #2. I think you're fine with women voting as long as they vote for you. A lot of Republican legislatures weren't making it easy for single mothers, or any working person, to vote.

4) I'm not the first to note the Neo-Confederate streak in modern Republicanism. State nullification? Really? Seccessionism? Really?
Give me a break.

#15 | Posted by Zed at 2013-02-26 10:10 AM | Reply | Flag:

Puhleeeeeze.
#14 | POSTED BY DOC_SARVIS

Oh, that's right they were "southern" democrats the political mulligan has been played so it didn't count?

#16 | Posted by paneocon at 2013-02-26 10:10 AM | Reply | Flag:

Those Southern Democrats are now, for the most part, Republicans. Google "Lee Atwater" and the n-word and see what pops up.

#17 | Posted by Doc_Sarvis at 2013-02-26 10:11 AM | Reply | Flag:

#15 | POSTED BY ZED

Wow that was a struggle? Your logic is almost eddie like.

#18 | Posted by paneocon at 2013-02-26 10:12 AM | Reply | Flag:

#17 | POSTED BY DOC_SARVIS

Yes "your" big government republicans. New boss same as the old boss.

#19 | Posted by paneocon at 2013-02-26 10:13 AM | Reply | Flag:

left wing hacks who happen to call themselves Republicans'
#13 | Posted by KBM

Michael Gerson, David Frum, and Peter Wehner are "left wing hacks who happen to call themselves Republicans"?

Sounds like you've been sucking up too much Sterno, kid.

#20 | Posted by Doc_Sarvis at 2013-02-26 10:13 AM | Reply | Flag:

#18 | Posted by paneocon at 2013

Anyone note Limbaugh refer to Mrs. Obama as "Moo-Chelle" the other day?
That almost makes my point in itself. What sort of person was Rush attempting to appeal to with that 3rd Grade level insult?

#21 | Posted by Zed at 2013-02-26 10:14 AM | Reply | Flag:

Those Southern Democrats are now, for the most part, Republicans. Google "Lee Atwater" and the n-word and see what pops up.
#17 | Posted by Doc_Sarvis

Yes "your" big government republicans. New boss same as the old boss.
#19 | Posted by paneocon

So Lee Atwater, Ronald Reagan water carrier, was a "big government republican"?

I'm waiting for the day - and I sense it may be coming - where people like you actually come out and denounce Reagan for being insufficiently Republican.

#22 | Posted by Doc_Sarvis at 2013-02-26 10:16 AM | Reply | Flag:

left wing hacks who happen to call themselves Republicans'
#13 | Posted by KBM

Its a Liberal conspiracy that we have Republicans like that. I'd guess you'd have to agree that it would have to be.

#23 | Posted by Zed at 2013-02-26 10:16 AM | Reply | Flag:

Just a couple of thoughts since Doc can't handle more then 1. Doc sure loves 2 thread thoughts----what the rethugs should conform to and the gay thang. I don't know what the rethugs should do except continue on the path they're going----as far as the gay thang, it's not uncomfortable and an easy answer----give the gay couples a piece of paper that says they're a thang, call it cohabitation, and make them eligible for couple rights. Leave marriage to a man and wife and for the rest---- male/male, female/female, male/male/female, female/female/male, dog/cat, donkey/horse, transvestite/transgender; call it anything else (cohabitation, unity, joined at the hip, a couple) and give them the same rights as a union between a man and woman.

#24 | Posted by matsop at 2013-02-26 10:16 AM | Reply | Flag:

ZED -

I've seen posters here - I think Paneocon was one of them - blame the Democrats for George Bush, because they didn't put up a candidate who could beat the Republican.

#25 | Posted by Doc_Sarvis at 2013-02-26 10:17 AM | Reply | Flag:

What sort of person was Rush attempting to appeal to with that 3rd Grade level insult?

#21 | Posted by Zed at 2013-02-26 10:14 AM | Reply

Probably you, zed, since you obviously tune in for your daily self-flagellation and masochistic excitement.

#26 | Posted by matsop at 2013-02-26 10:19 AM | Reply | Flag:

male/male, female/female, male/male/female, female/female/male, dog/cat, donkey/horse, transvestite/transgender...
#24 | Posted by matsop

All those possibilities, they just keep spinning around in your head, don't they?

I'm only going to say this one more time: those brownish opaque plastic pill bottles on the tv tray in front of you? Check out the "use-by" dates. Seriously. It's important.

#27 | Posted by Doc_Sarvis at 2013-02-26 10:20 AM | Reply | Flag:

where people like you actually come out and denounce Reagan for being insufficiently Republican.
#22 | POSTED BY DOC_SARVIS

Don't hold your breath. No matter how much history revision goes on I was there.

I've seen posters here - I think Paneocon was one of them - blame the Democrats for George Bush
#25 | POSTED BY DOC_SARVIS

Sorry not me. I fell hook line and sinker for the compassionate conservative tripe.

#28 | Posted by paneocon at 2013-02-26 10:20 AM | Reply | Flag:

daily self-flagellation and masochistic excitement.
#26 | Posted by matsop

Really, those dates. They're important.

#29 | Posted by Doc_Sarvis at 2013-02-26 10:21 AM | Reply | Flag:

Seriously. It's important.

#27 | Posted by Doc_Sarvis at 2013-02-26 10:20 AM | Reply

Seriously, doc; there's more to life then being hunched over your computer keys in your cave sipping peppermint schnapps through a straw with only 2 recurring thoughts running through the narrow fibers of the remaining 2 neurons between your 2 atrophied cerebri.

#30 | Posted by matsop at 2013-02-26 10:26 AM | Reply | Flag:

Probably you, zed, since you obviously tune in

#26 | Posted by matsop at 2013-02-26 10:19 AM

There was a time, many years ago, when I took the Rush Challenge and listened to him for a very extended period of time while I was hunched over paperwork.

The result of the challenge was that I determined Rush is a sophomoric intellect who keeps people in line with a nasty repetoire of personal insults.

I developed my own Rush Game, which I sometimes do still play: I take a particular news event and try to anticipate what sping Rush will put on it. I am nearly always right.

Most of the time, however, I get to know what Rush says because there are people in my extended family who quote the man as if he were God Himself.

That there are people out there who are oblivious to the sophomorism, to the nastiness, goes a long way in my book to explain why the modern Republican Party has got its head stuck in a bottle after trying to lick the last drop of hate towards Deomocrats and Liberals from it.

#31 | Posted by Zed at 2013-02-26 10:27 AM | Reply | Flag:

I'm only going to say this one more time:

#27 | Posted by Doc_Sarvis at 2013-02-26 10:20 AM | Reply

I'm sure there's more then me that would encourage you to commit to that statement.

#32 | Posted by matsop at 2013-02-26 10:30 AM | Reply | Flag:

there's more to life then being hunched over your computer keys in your cave sipping peppermint schnapps through a straw with only 2 recurring thoughts running through the narrow fibers of the remaining 2 neurons between your 2 atrophied cerebri.
#30 | Posted by matsop

That's why I keep telling you to push that tv tray aside, hoik yourself up out of the tatty barcalounger recliner, dust off your lounge lizzard sweatsuit, stagger outside and get a whiff of fresh air.

#33 | Posted by Doc_Sarvis at 2013-02-26 10:30 AM | Reply | Flag:

#30 | POSTED BY MATSOP
#33 | POSTED BY DOC_SARVIS

The net slam taken to an art form.

#34 | Posted by paneocon at 2013-02-26 10:37 AM | Reply | Flag:

explain why the modern Republican Party has got its head stuck in a bottle after trying to lick the last drop of hate towards Deomocrats and Liberals from it.

#31 | Posted by Zed at 2013-02-26 10:27 AM | Reply

Zed, I can't speak for rethugs, but personally I don't hate Demonrats/lefties but feel genuine compassion toward them since they've either been afflicted with an incurable disease and/or are genetically challenged---they can't help themselves and if one is a compassionate person; that person realizes their dilemma and nurses them in their terminal illness.

#35 | Posted by matsop at 2013-02-26 10:37 AM | Reply | Flag:

Somebody should've told you the Barcalounger-puffy tracksuit-Cheetos-tv tray combo wasn't good for you, longterm.

#36 | Posted by Doc_Sarvis at 2013-02-26 10:40 AM | Reply | Flag:

stagger outside and get a whiff of fresh air.

#33 | Posted by Doc_Sarvis at 2013-02-26 10:30 AM | Reply

That would be quite dangerous since "outside" there is the stale air of the "walking dead" demonrats/lefties seeking whom they will devour next.

#37 | Posted by matsop at 2013-02-26 10:41 AM | Reply | Flag:

#35 | POSTED BY MATSOP

I, on the other hand, am not nearly as forgiving. I give democrats a pass on the first 4 years but if you signed on for the second 4 years you are Brain damaged. Pure and simple brain damage.

#38 | Posted by paneocon at 2013-02-26 10:41 AM | Reply | Flag:

Paneocon, how many times did you vote for George W. Bush?

#39 | Posted by danni at 2013-02-26 10:46 AM | Reply | Flag:

"I don't hate Demonrats/lefties but feel genuine compassion toward them since they've either been afflicted with an incurable disease and/or are genetically challenged..."

"Pure and simple brain damage."

You guys have become caricatures of bewildered rubes, as you cope (poorly) with the vagaries of the Kübler-Ross model.

It's sad, reading your pouts, but in an amusing, schadenfreudish sort of way.

#40 | Posted by Doc_Sarvis at 2013-02-26 10:46 AM | Reply | Flag:

I give democrats a pass on the first 4 years but if you signed on for the second 4 years you are Brain damaged. Pure and simple brain damage.

#38 | Posted by paneocon at 2013-02-26 10:41 AM | Reply

PA, that's really quite harsh. Brain damaged? More like sitting in their dune buggies stuck in the Obama ditch spinning their wheels in first gear.

#41 | Posted by matsop at 2013-02-26 10:47 AM | Reply | Flag:

#40 | POSTED BY DOC_SARVIS

For you doc, Wrapped up with a ribbon.

www.nytimes.com

#42 | Posted by paneocon at 2013-02-26 10:48 AM | Reply | Flag:

#35 | Posted by matsop
#38 | Posted by paneocon

The bloviating Waldorf and bleating Statler of the DR Muppet show.

#43 | Posted by Doc_Sarvis at 2013-02-26 10:49 AM | Reply | Flag:

Matsop, working it all out: www.hotflick.net

#44 | Posted by Doc_Sarvis at 2013-02-26 10:51 AM | Reply | Flag:

Paneocon, how many times did you vote for George W. Bush?

#39 | Posted by danni at 2013-02-26 10:46 AM | Reply |

I'll bet 2 more times then he wishes. But really; what's the difference. The only difference is that the demonrat throws his "walking dead" lefty base a bone or 2 to keep them happy and then in many issue areas acts like Bush or any other rethug.

#45 | Posted by matsop at 2013-02-26 10:52 AM | Reply | Flag:

I, on the other hand, am not nearly as forgiving. I give democrats a pass on the first 4 years but if you signed on for the second 4 years you are Brain damaged. Pure and simple brain damage.

#38 | Posted by paneocon at 2013-02-26 10:41 AM


That's exactly how I felt about those who voted for George W. Bush the second time around.

Fortunately, I did not make the same mistake twice and therefore did not vote for Bush to have a second term in 2004. He was re-elected but at least my own conscience was clear.

Fool me once, shame on you.
Fool me twice, shame on me.

#46 | Posted by CalifChris at 2013-02-26 10:52 AM | Reply | Flag:

With a base composed of the likes of Matsop and Paneocon - who can't even cope with the idea that the party faces existential threats to which it isn't responding well - the poor GOP doesn't stand a chance at the national level.

#47 | Posted by Doc_Sarvis at 2013-02-26 10:53 AM | Reply | Flag:

Fool me once, shame on you.
Fool me twice, shame on me.
#46 | Posted by CalifChris

Or, as George Bush put it:

"There's an old saying in Tennessee -- I know it's in Texas, probably in Tennessee -- that says, fool me once, shame on -- shame on you. Fool me -- you can't get fooled again." '

Here, Chris (for later - it's been a while): solofriendly.com

#48 | Posted by Doc_Sarvis at 2013-02-26 10:55 AM | Reply | Flag:

The left forgets how many Democrats are also against gay marriage. Civil unions - okay. But when it comes to the Sacrament of Marriage, a good majority of both parties believe marriage is between one man and one woman. It's not a political issue, it's mainly a cultural/religious issue and it doesn't matter which political party you vote for.

#49 | Posted by CalifChris at 2013-02-26 10:59 AM | Reply | Flag:

#47 | POSTED BY DOC_SARVIS

Is it better to support a party base because the other guy is worse or is it better to support a policy and direction that you know is right for the country even if it's a death sentence for the party? The RNC is so confident that conservatives will support them in the end because they are not the other guy. November should have been a wake up call that people will stay home if their concerns were not addressed but Republicans obviously didn't pay attention. The only way to effect change on the RNC is to call their bluff even it it means Hillary Clinton in 2016.

#50 | Posted by paneocon at 2013-02-26 11:00 AM | Reply | Flag:

Here, Chris (for later - it's been a while): solofriendly.com

#48 | Posted by Doc_Sarvis at 2013-02-26 10:55 AM

Yummm. Thanks sweetheart : )

No one makes them as good as you. lol

#51 | Posted by CalifChris at 2013-02-26 11:01 AM | Reply | Flag:

Riiiight, the party gets drubbed nationally because not enough of the faithful turn out to vote.

If there was more ideological purity with the national ticket, those stay-at-homers would turn out in droves and there'd be an electoral triumph.

LOL

#52 | Posted by Doc_Sarvis at 2013-02-26 11:03 AM | Reply | Flag:

;>)

#53 | Posted by Doc_Sarvis at 2013-02-26 11:03 AM | Reply | Flag:

#46 | POSTED BY CALIFCHRIS

Chris this is my point, After all the non conservative things Bush did, we held our collective noses and walked into the voting booth and pulled the lever for Bush because we felt that he was better than Kerry/Edwards. This kind for blind obedience has left the RNC with the misconception that conservatives would always have their backs even after the spit in our faces.

#54 | Posted by paneocon at 2013-02-26 11:04 AM | Reply | Flag:

the poor GOP doesn't stand a chance at the national level.

#47 | Posted by Doc_Sarvis at 2013-02-26 10:53 AM | Reply |

And that's not necessarily a bad thing since then the demonrats will screw everything up and won't be able to pull out their index "blame" finger to point it. Just look at the disaster of Obamacare and the fact that most of it won't see the light of day because there is "no mo money"---think of all the waste of time and money and lousy policy and the guy in the WH picking up a pen to sign it not knowing what was in it. Also think of the guy in the WH with all the good sounding BS and platitudes early on and then the handing of largesse to his lapdogs with the stimulus and how that move just exaggerated our deficits/debt. Yes, hand the rope to the demonrats, get out of their way, and they'll look for the nearest Hemlock tree, have a cup of tea, and proceed to hang themselves.

#55 | Posted by matsop at 2013-02-26 11:07 AM | Reply | Flag:

#52 | POSTED BY DOC_SARVIS

We are not looking for Ideological purity, only a seat at the table. environmentalists get a seat at the DNC table, Gay rights people get a seat at the DNC table. Pro abortion people get a seat, Pro immigration people get a seat. The Democrats have figured out how to govern with out angering its base why can't the RNC do the same?

#56 | Posted by paneocon at 2013-02-26 11:08 AM | Reply | Flag:

The left forgets how many Democrats are also against gay marriage. Civil unions - okay. But when it comes to the Sacrament of Marriage, a good majority of both parties believe marriage is between one man and one woman. It's not a political issue, it's mainly a cultural/religious issue and it doesn't matter which political party you vote for.

#49 | Posted by CalifChris at 2013-02-26 10:59 AM | Reply

I agree with that thought and I agree with the position espoused by individuals within both parties.

#57 | Posted by matsop at 2013-02-26 11:10 AM | Reply | Flag:

"We are not looking for Ideological purity, only a seat at the table."

A seat at the table? After you guys insisted Romney drive the Klown Kar so far to the right the chitty-chitty-bang-banger careened off the road and vaulted into a slurry lagoon from which you've yet to even begin to start to commence to think about extricating yourselves?

I'd no idea this buffoonery was going to be such a long-running show. Better get some more popcorn.

#58 | Posted by Doc_Sarvis at 2013-02-26 11:13 AM | Reply | Flag:

Okay, Doc; you got your usual responses to your usual thread and it's time to go do more productive things.

#59 | Posted by matsop at 2013-02-26 11:13 AM | Reply | Flag:

"But when it comes to the Sacrament of Marriage, a good majority of both parties believe marriage is between one man and one woman. It's not a political issue, it's mainly a cultural/religious issue and it doesn't matter which political party you vote for."

The rights and privileges conferred by a marriage license are in no way sacramental as a matter of law. It's intentionally dishonest to conflate the meaning held by one's religious institution and that held by the government.

#60 | Posted by Hagbard_Celine at 2013-02-26 11:15 AM | Reply | Flag:

"If you build it, he will come."

#61 | Posted by Doc_Sarvis at 2013-02-26 11:16 AM | Reply | Flag:

It's intentionally dishonest to conflate the meaning held by one's religious institution and that held by the government.

#60 | Posted by Hagbard_Celine at 2013-02-26 11:15 AM | Reply | Flag:

Secular governments facilitated that conflation by using the term "marriage" in the first place.

#62 | Posted by DirkStruan at 2013-02-26 11:20 AM | Reply | Flag:

"environmentalists get a seat at the DNC table"

And are told, "thanks for coming, now stfu."

"Gay rights people get a seat at the DNC table."

And are told, "it's a state's rights issue, now stfu."

Is that the type of treatment you're looking for?

#63 | Posted by Hagbard_Celine at 2013-02-26 11:22 AM | Reply | Flag:

The Democrats have figured out how to govern with out angering its base why can't the RNC do the same?
#56 | Posted by paneocon

A dubious proposition, at best I think. But leaving that aside for the moment, I think there's always a problem when self-righteous sorts - true believers - feel they aren't getting their way. That's not meant as a slam, necessarily, just an observation.

The problem is, you're dealing with what on the national level amounts to a very narrow constituency - and catering to that constituency to the degree to which it demands to be catered may create an electorally suicidal situation.

#64 | Posted by Doc_Sarvis at 2013-02-26 11:25 AM | Reply | Flag:

But when it comes to the Sacrament of Marriage, a good majority of both parties believe marriage is between one man and one woman.

The "Sacrament of Marriage" is a religious institution, not a secular one. The state doesn't have the ability to grant or deny a sacrament.

What the state has ability to do is grant a marriage that is entirely secular. As far as the state is concerned, it's just a legal agreement entered into by two consenting adults that covers hundreds of different rights and responsibilities.

#65 | Posted by rcade at 2013-02-26 11:26 AM | Reply | Flag:

"Secular governments facilitated that conflation by using the term "marriage" in the first place."

I don't know what to tell people if they have a problem understandinging that many words often have multiple meanings and can't keep them straight in their minds, but are you telling me you're ready to join me in crossing the word off our licenses?

#66 | Posted by Hagbard_Celine at 2013-02-26 11:26 AM | Reply | Flag:

#65 |Correctomundo

Government defining a sacrament would be like science defining God.

Another Category Error.

#67 | Posted by Corky at 2013-02-26 11:29 AM | Reply | Flag:

I think there's always a problem when self-righteous sorts - true believers - feel they aren't getting their way. That's not meant as a slam, necessarily, just an observation.

#64 | POSTED BY DOC_SARVIS

This is NOT a seat at the table

GOP leaders remove 4 from plum House committees
news.yahoo.com

The problem is, you're dealing with what on the national level amounts to a very narrow constituency - and catering to that constituency to the degree to which it demands to be catered may create an electorally suicidal situation.
#64 | POSTED BY DOC_SARVIS

If you work on the theory that the RNC is right. I don't hold that true. With out change the RNC turn out will be worse in 2014. They delude themselves that they will see a Hispanic bump, they need their base back.

#68 | Posted by paneocon at 2013-02-26 11:30 AM | Reply | Flag:

"I don't know what to tell people if they have a problem understandinging that many words often have multiple meanings and can't keep them straight in their minds,"

English might be part of the problem. Americans are spoiled by a language that virtually always allows an alternative word choice (or, as the generalization goes, German is a language in which many if not most words have multiple meanings, while English is a language in which many if not most meanings have multiple words).

"but are you telling me you're ready to join me in crossing the word off our licenses?"

The damage seems to have already been done...

#69 | Posted by DirkStruan at 2013-02-26 11:36 AM | Reply | Flag:

It is all about mindset. Until Republicans can look at a same sex couple and consider them to be "married", - not joined in a Civil Union or any other semantic creation, - just fully and completely and legally and morally "married"!, they will be out of touch with ascending American beliefs and perceptions.

I really don't think the GOP is, at this point at least, able to make that shift in mindset. Give it another few drubbings in Presidential elections.

#70 | Posted by moder8 at 2013-02-26 11:42 AM | Reply | Flag:

The rights and privileges conferred by a marriage license are in no way sacramental as a matter of law. It's intentionally dishonest to conflate the meaning held by one's religious institution and that held by the government.

Posted by Hagbard_Celine at 2013-02-26 11:15 AM


If you want to get right down to it, most people do not want to conflate the two meanings at all since most still believe a marriage should be between one man and one woman. But many have given in and gone along with now acknowledging civil unions for gays even though deep down inside they still may not be all that comfortable with the idea. It just takes some getting used to, is all. Give it time.

The problem is militant gays keep demanding to have their civil union be acknowledged as being a "marriage" -- which is a religious sacrament -- even though with a civil union they get all the same rights and privileges conferred under a marriage performed in a church. So why push it?

Christian religions, the religion of Islam, Judaism, and most religions of the world do not condone same sex marriage so gays should just leave the religious aspect out of it. Or else they need to take the issue up with their individual religious denomination and religious leaders to make the change.

#71 | Posted by CalifChris at 2013-02-26 11:49 AM | Reply | Flag:

CalifChris, I think the tide is shifting. Within our lifetimes most people will not feel the need to restrict the definition of "marriage" as strictly between a man and a woman. The trend is clear. The younger generation is overwhelmingly more sympathetic to the work-a-day definition of "marriage" being greatly expanded. What you espouse in #71 may be considered an anachronistic perspective within 25 years.

#72 | Posted by moder8 at 2013-02-26 11:54 AM | Reply | Flag:

The problem is militant gays keep demanding to have their civil union be acknowledged as being a "marriage" -- which is a religious sacrament

Your "militant gays" slur aside, people are not addressing what religions do on this point when they call for marriage equality. They are addressing STATE marriage rights.

even though with a civil union they get all the same rights and privileges conferred under a marriage performed in a church.

They do NOT get all the same rights, which is the whole point. They do not get full faith and credit moving from state to state. They do not get next of kin privileges and they do not receive most federal benefits. That's just three of over 1000.

#73 | Posted by Hagbard_Celine at 2013-02-26 12:01 PM | Reply | Flag:

If you want to get right down to it, most people do not want to conflate the two meanings at all since most still believe a marriage should be between one man and one woman.

That's not true any more. 53 percent support gay marriage:

www.gallup.com

Given the trend line and the fact that the strongest gay marriage supporters are young and the strongest opponents are old, in 10 years it won't even be close.

#74 | Posted by rcade at 2013-02-26 12:07 PM | Reply | Flag:

The problem is militant gays keep demanding to have their civil union be acknowledged as being a "marriage" -- which is a religious sacrament -- even though with a civil union they get all the same rights and privileges conferred under a marriage performed in a church.

If marriage is a religious sacrament, how was I able to get one in a justice of the peace office without ever having a ceremony in a church?

#75 | Posted by rcade at 2013-02-26 12:08 PM | Reply | Flag:

"The problem is militant gays keep demanding to have their civil union be acknowledged as being a "marriage" -- which is a religious sacrament -- even though with a civil union they get all the same rights and privileges conferred under a marriage performed in a church. So why push it?"

That is baloney. There are millions of "marriages" in America which would not be recognized as "marriages" by many churches, especially the Catholic church because they were not created by a church and in the case of Catholics it would have had to have been only a Catholic church. Theerfore you wouldn't consider those unions to have been created through the "sacrament of marriage." They are still legal marriages under the law though with all of the legal benefits, which are many, that are only available to married people. Also, the individuals getting married, regardless if they are same or opposite sex have freedom of speech and can therefore call their union whatever they want to call it.

#76 | Posted by danni at 2013-02-26 12:14 PM | Reply | Flag:

"If marriage is a religious sacrament, how was I able to get one in a justice of the peace office without ever having a ceremony in a church?"

What if you don't even believe in the concept of "sacraments?" I simply don't.

#77 | Posted by danni at 2013-02-26 12:15 PM | Reply | Flag:

people are not addressing what religions do on this point when they call for marriage equality. They are addressing STATE marriage rights.

If that were so, Hagbard, would gays be happy to accept a federal law allowing civil unions in every state without it being referred to as a "marriage" as long as they received ALL the same rights and privileges? Well, would they? THAT gets to the real crux of this issue. If not and they still demand it to be called a "marriage" -- the term given to a religious sacrament -- then you're just blowing smoke out your pompous you know what.

.
have to leave now. Will return to do battle another day. : )

#78 | Posted by CalifChris at 2013-02-26 12:18 PM | Reply | Flag:

I wish we could fast forward 10 years. I predict Christians will still be angry.

Gays will still be gay. Many more of them will be married. Married in churches, courthouses, parks, etc.

And Christians will move onto their next crusade. No clue how many bodies will come of that.

#79 | Posted by greeneyedguy at 2013-02-26 12:21 PM | Reply | Flag:

Every time republicans are asked about gay marriage they should simply reply that they have the same position as Obama. Let the states work it out.

#80 | Posted by Dalton at 2013-02-26 12:22 PM | Reply | Flag:

"THAT gets to the real crux of this issue. If not and they still demand it to be called a "marriage" -- the term given to a religious sacrament -- then you're just blowing smoke out your pompous you know what."

You're associating it with a religious sacrament, it isn't necessarily associated with one.
Secondly, your church decides who is eligible for that sacrament, other people's churches can decide that gays are just as eligible as anyone else. There is a large church near my home that would gladly marry a same sex couple.

#81 | Posted by danni at 2013-02-26 12:22 PM | Reply | Flag:

If that were so, Hagbard, would gays be happy to accept a federal law allowing civil unions in every state without it being referred to as a "marriage" as long as they received ALL the same rights and privileges? Well, would they? THAT gets to the real crux of this issue. If not and they still demand it to be called a "marriage" -- the term given to a religious sacrament -- then you're just blowing smoke out your pompous you know what.

#78 | Posted by CalifChris

And when you meet a gay civil unioned couple, will you be angry when they say "I'm married. This is my husband/wife". Will 'husband/wife' be sacred?

No one is going to say, "Oh, yeah, I'm civil unioned. This is my civil union partner". No. No one is ever going to say that. And to think that will happen is utter nonsense. Expecting people to say they were civil unioned (even if religiously joined in a CHURCH) it won't happen.

Marriage is performed by the church. Churches perform GAY MARRIAGES now. Just because yours doesn't, doesn't mean the government can pick favorites. That's kinda how equality/discrimination works.

#82 | Posted by greeneyedguy at 2013-02-26 12:24 PM | Reply | Flag:

If that were so, Hagbard, would gays be happy to accept a federal law allowing civil unions in every state without it being referred to as a "marriage" as long as they received ALL the same rights and privileges?

Why should they be? Because you can't seem to deal with a word having two meanings? Talk about expecting preferential treatment.

If not and they still demand it to be called a "marriage" -- the term given to a religious sacrament -- then you're just blowing smoke out your pompous you know what.

Jeez, you're being obtuse. Marriage, as a state sanctioned contract, is NOT marriage as your church defines it. Two different things, CC. The only thing that ties them together is that the state allows religious ministers to serve as a signatory to the document.

#83 | Posted by Hagbard_Celine at 2013-02-26 12:29 PM | Reply | Flag:

"... they have the same position as Obama. Let the states work it out."

Yeah, the President is a punk on this issue too.

#84 | Posted by Hagbard_Celine at 2013-02-26 12:30 PM | Reply | Flag:

I think a good rule for government is when everything else is fixed they can worry about gay marriage. Otherwise, stfu. But, thats me.

#85 | Posted by Dalton at 2013-02-26 12:34 PM | Reply | Flag:

I think a good rule for government is when everything else is fixed they can worry about gay marriage. Otherwise, stfu. But, thats me.

#85 | Posted by Dalton

When you're paying additional taxes to cover your partner's health insurance because the federal government won't recognize them as a legal dependant/spouse... you tend to speak up about injustice concerning your money. Especially when you see straight people getting married and divorced within a year constantly but have automatic legal rights from the moment they say "I do".

#86 | Posted by greeneyedguy at 2013-02-26 12:39 PM | Reply | Flag:

"If not and they still demand it to be called a "marriage" -- the term given to a religious sacrament"
When two men or two women marry in a Jewish synagogue or a Lutheran Church, Episcopal Church, Quaker Church, United Church of Christ or a Unitarian Universalist Church why should these not be counted as a religious sacrament? I am not Catholic and do not believe most of what this church says but I respect the beliefs of those that do and accept two people married by a Catholic Priest are married. Seems to me the law is putting some churches over others in what is allowed to be called a Religious Sacrament.

#87 | Posted by THomewood at 2013-02-26 12:44 PM | Reply | Flag:

If that were so, Hagbard, would gays be happy to accept a federal law allowing civil unions in every state without it being referred to as a "marriage" as long as they received ALL the same rights and privileges?

When you ask this question, you should realize that anti-gay marriage groups are a big reason why it's gay marriage today instead of gay civil unions.

In the early days of the fight, the National Organization for Marriage promoted laws to deny gays civil union rights. So the battle became gay marriage or nothing, not gay marriage or civil unions.

#88 | Posted by rcade at 2013-02-26 01:00 PM | Reply | Flag:

I think a good rule for government is when everything else is fixed they can worry about gay marriage.

So in other words, the government should never worry about gay marriage. Pretty glib.

How about the government fix everything else before it gets to an issue that matters personally to your life? Just because an issue doesn't matter to you doesn't mean it's unimportant.

#89 | Posted by rcade at 2013-02-26 01:01 PM | Reply | Flag:

#76

Because the state hijacked a religious term.

#90 | Posted by eberly at 2013-02-26 01:08 PM | Reply | Flag:

How about the government fix everything else before it gets to an issue that matters personally to your life? Just because an issue doesn't matter to you doesn't mean it's unimportant.

#89 | Posted by rcade at 2013-02-26 01:01 PM | Reply

There's a lot that "matters" personally to my life but I don't act like a child wanting the rest of society to compromise what matters to them to justify my wants.

#91 | Posted by matsop at 2013-02-26 01:17 PM | Reply | Flag:

And when you meet a gay civil unioned couple, will you be angry when they say "I'm married. This is my husband/wife". Will 'husband/wife' be sacred?

#82 | Posted by greeneyedguy at 2013-02-26 12:24 PM | Reply

They can say; "this is my companion" and everyone will get the drift.

#92 | Posted by matsop at 2013-02-26 01:20 PM | Reply | Flag:

There's a lot that "matters" personally to my life but I don't act like a child wanting the rest of society to compromise what matters to them to justify my wants.

A majority of society favors gay marriage. You're the minority now expecting the rest of us to accept your refusal to allow it.

#93 | Posted by rcade at 2013-02-26 01:38 PM | Reply | Flag:

Oh the Republicans of big government, big banks, big business, big deficits? Those Republicans? No thanks, not buying.

#7 | Posted by paneocon

I'm betting you bought, and will continue to buy wholeheartedly, every election day.

Seems to me the law is putting some churches over others in what is allowed to be called a Religious Sacrament.

Not really. The government doesn't make any church accept anybody. The members of said churches may be, but that doesn't mean the government has to accept the religious definition. You mentioned Catholics and marriages. You do realize that the Catholic Church doesn't recognize marriages not performed by an RC priest. Does that mean there are hundreds of millions of Americans living in sin?

#94 | Posted by northguy3 at 2013-02-26 02:18 PM | Reply | Flag:

It's not a political issue, it's mainly a cultural/religious issue and it doesn't matter which political party you vote for.

Agreed. So churches shouldn't be forced to marry gays and shouldn't be allowed to set government policy. Same with abortion.

Civil unions should be legal everywhere and if gays want to get married under the loving gaze of the Guy in the Sky, they can find a church that will do so.

#95 | Posted by northguy3 at 2013-02-26 02:21 PM | Reply | Flag:

"There's a lot that "matters" personally to my life but I don't act like a child wanting the rest of society to compromise what matters to them to justify my wants."

Your view is in the minority.

And rights aren't a matter of opinion anyway.

#96 | Posted by Sully at 2013-02-26 02:24 PM | Reply | Flag:

They can say; "this is my companion" and everyone will get the drift.

What? That you're a Doctor Who fan?

#97 | Posted by RevDarko at 2013-02-26 03:58 PM | Reply | Flag:

LOL. Start the engine on the Tardis.

#98 | Posted by Hagbard_Celine at 2013-02-26 04:02 PM | Reply | Flag:

wow, if thread gets better than #11, i'm all in!

btw, i wonder if so-called republicans/conservatives have tead that book?

#100 | Posted by ichiro at 2013-02-26 04:38 PM | Reply | Flag:

I'm betting you bought, and will continue to buy wholeheartedly, every election day.
#94 | POSTED BY NORTHGUY3

I wouldn't take that bet if I were you. My local RNC is not too happy with my contrarian attitude.

#101 | Posted by paneocon at 2013-02-26 04:45 PM | Reply | Flag:

fyi, #11 indirectly (rednecks) explains the phenomena of debt over defense....and more.
good luck!

#103 | Posted by ichiro at 2013-02-26 04:51 PM | Reply | Flag:

They can say; "this is my companion" and everyone will get the drift.

#92 | Posted by matsop

Companion? Who even says that? It sounds almost as tacky as saying 'Life Partner'. I hate that phrase too!

#104 | Posted by greeneyedguy at 2013-02-26 04:51 PM | Reply | Flag:

"We are not looking for Ideological purity, only a seat at the table."

Funny thing, that's exactly what gays say when it comes to marriage.

#105 | Posted by snoofy at 2013-02-27 01:55 AM | Reply | Flag:

Oh the bright side less and less people own a filthy bible book today!

That's a good thing.

#106 | Posted by truthteller101 at 2013-02-27 11:05 AM | Reply | Flag:

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