Drudge Retort: The Other Side of the News
Thursday, February 21, 2013

Now, the good news is, we can make meaningful progress on this issue [climate change] while driving strong economic growth."

With that sentence from his State of the Union address, President Obama capitulated to paltry cynicism. Alas, he will not be the president who finally comes clean on the trade-off between economic growth and environmental protection. Obama is now committed to win-win, green-growth rhetoric.

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nullifidian

 

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"Look," as every politician likes to say, our economy is 90% fossil-fueled. Fossil fueling = greenhouse gases = climate change, says science. So expecting "meaningful progress" on climate change "while driving strong economic growth" is like expecting less gun violence while driving strong sales of assault weapons. The linkage between growing the economy -- increasing production and consumption of goods and services in the aggregate -- and spewing more greenhouse gases is even more certain than the link between weapon sales and violence.

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"But it wasn't long -- halfway between then and now -- when Obama started doing the two-step on the slippery slope. That's when he announced, "I do not buy the notion that we have to make a choice between having clean air and clean water and growing this economy in a robust way. I think that is a false debate." As if air and water pollution could somehow become "uncoupled" from activities such as agriculture, oil extraction, manufacturing, transportation… you know, just those little sectors that make the whole economy run."

#1 | Posted by nullifidian at 2013-02-21 07:57 AM | Reply | Flag:

#1 | Posted by nullifidian at 2013-02-21 07:57 AM | Reply |

This POTUS was put in office to play with the minds of weak people. Why? Because he has the gift of gab and BS. It started with "hopey and changey" and has morphed into "no hopey and divisiveness". Divisiveness is always used by those with no ability and answers.

#3 | Posted by matsop at 2013-02-21 08:50 AM | Reply | Flag:

"This POTUS was put in office to play with the minds of weak people. "

Weak-minded people voted for Willard, also. In fact, studies indicate that virtually every Willard voter was, is, and will always be, weak-minded.

#4 | Posted by nullifidian at 2013-02-21 08:57 AM | Reply | Flag:

#4 | POSTED BY NULLIFIDIAN

I just have to ask, Null who would be your choice in a POTUS?

#6 | Posted by paneocon at 2013-02-21 09:09 AM | Reply | Flag:

In fact, studies indicate that virtually every Willard voter was, is, and will always be, weak-minded.

#4 | Posted by nullifidian at 2013-02-21 08:57 AM | Reply

Rat studies.

#7 | Posted by Zed at 2013-02-21 09:17 AM | Reply | Flag:

"I just have to ask, Null who would be your choice in a POTUS?"

Anybody I supported wouldn't be allowed to take office by the ruling class. They would use force to keep the electoral college from voting. I would vote for Russ Feingold, however, for being the only Senator with the balls to vote against the BushObama Patriot Act.

#8 | Posted by nullifidian at 2013-02-21 09:31 AM | Reply | Flag:

#8 | POSTED BY NULLIFIDIAN

Russ Feingold? OK I can appreciate where you are coming from. I prioritize the problems of America in a very different order.

#9 | Posted by paneocon at 2013-02-21 09:38 AM | Reply | Flag:

" I prioritize the problems of America in a very different order."

Guns, god, and gays?

#10 | Posted by nullifidian at 2013-02-21 10:10 AM | Reply | Flag:

"Alas, he will not be the president who finally comes clean on the trade-off between economic growth and environmental protection"

That's a demonstrably stupid statement. The trade-off isn't the same in all cases.

Often the trade-off is between short term profits and long term disaster.

Poisoning our water supply for temporary profits is a long term economic disaster.

Overfishing to the point were fish populations dwindle and never come back is a long term economic disaster.

There are thousands of these examples.

One of the biggest economic problems we face in the US is that long term economic prosperity is consistently disregarded in favor of short term quartly profits. And its because the stock market rules corporate decision making. The people running things only care about reporting short term quaterly profits so that their company stock goes up every quarter. Eventually they will cash out and the short sightedly stupid decisions they are making will be someone else's problem. This is why US business leaders have sold the country out to China and others.

The big shots actually know they are doing this. They don't care because they are getting personally rich in the process. Its the little fish who think they understand the economy and who don't - but who vote to support to the sell outs anyway - who are the problem.

#11 | Posted by Sully at 2013-02-21 10:34 AM | Reply | Flag:

"That's a demonstrably stupid statement. The trade-off isn't the same in all cases."

So? The author didn't say the trade-off is the same in all cases. What the author said, to repeat, is that there is a trade-off between economic growth and environmental protection, an indisputably true statement.

#12 | Posted by nullifidian at 2013-02-21 10:42 AM | Reply | Flag:

Sorry Nulli there is a whole department of ecology at the University of Arizona that disagrees with you, probably the most intelligent man I ever met .......

One of our most brilliant, thoughtful, and persuasive, ecologists, Michael Rosenzweig has looked at virtually every major facet of ecology over an illustrative career spanning more than four decades, focusing primarily on evolutionary, population and community ecology. This tremendous range, from studying continent-wide species diversity patterns to understanding community ecology in the surrounding Sonoran (Arizona) desert, and finally, to interpreting major aspects of the fossil record from an ecological perspective, has led to the development of important, often novel, insights not only in ecology, but indeed, for much of evolutionary biology. For example, in the early 1970s, independently of evolutionary biologist Leigh Van Valen (who would coin the term), Rosenzweig stumbled upon the Red Queen's Hypothesis. In his latest book, "Win-Win Ecology", Rosenzweig is a most infectious optimist, arguing persuasively for a new kind of conservation ecology, reconciliation ecology, that, by striving to strike a balance between humanity's demographic and economic pressures and the desire to save as much of Earth's biodiversity as possible, may become ultimately, the best - if not the sole - means of saving this biodiversity.
....

Rosenzweig hasn't offered us the golden elixir of truth that will solve our ongoing crisis in protecting and preserving much of Earth's biodiversity. But he has offered a most fascinating solution to our problem, and one that's well-reasoned, and well-stated in clear, extremely lucid, prose. Without question, "Win - Win Ecology" demands a wider readership, especially amongst the scientifically literate audience - and the general public - for whom this book ought to be required reading.www.amazon.com

#13 | Posted by AndreaMackris at 2013-02-21 10:48 AM | Reply | Flag:

"Poisoning our water supply for temporary profits is a long term economic disaster.

Overfishing to the point were fish populations dwindle and never come back is a long term economic disaster.

There are thousands of these examples."

Sounds exactly like what the author of this piece is saying.

#14 | Posted by nullifidian at 2013-02-21 10:52 AM | Reply | Flag:

"So? The author didn't say the trade-off is the same in all cases. What the author said, to repeat, is that there is a trade-off between economic growth and environmental protection, an indisputably true statement."

And that is still demonstrably untrue no matter how badly you want to pretend otherwise in order to support whatever ideology you are subscribing to today.

In many cases environmental protection also protects long term economic growth by preventing short sightedly stupid activities that in the long wrong will undoubtedly be a disaster for our economy. In these cases, there is no trade off and environmental protection also acts in the interests of economic growth.

#15 | Posted by Sully at 2013-02-21 10:54 AM | Reply | Flag:

"Sounds exactly like what the author of this piece is saying."

Except he's confusing short term profit making with economic growth.

#16 | Posted by Sully at 2013-02-21 10:55 AM | Reply | Flag:

"And that is still demonstrably untrue "

BS. Economic growth kills the environment. Economic growth requires more fossil fuel use which is destroying the climate and the oceans and species. There are no long-term environmental benefits from economic growth. The fact that a rich country can afford scrubbers on smoke stacks doesn't contradict that at all. It's only temporary. The population will be screaming for an end to environmental protections when energy prices skyrocket and they can't fill up their gas tanks.

#17 | Posted by nullifidian at 2013-02-21 11:02 AM | Reply | Flag:

"BS. Economic growth kills the environment. Economic growth requires more fossil fuel use which is destroying the climate and the oceans and species. There are no long-term environmental benefits from economic growth."

That's not what we're talking about. The issue is whether environmental regulation always harms economic growth. It does not. At times, it protects economic growth.

Nobody said that economic growth is good for the environment. You're changing the subject.

"The population will be screaming for an end to environmental protections when energy prices skyrocket and they can't fill up their gas tanks."

So what? If you poison their water they will scream for clean water. Paying more for gas still makes more sense that poisoning ourselves and the latter is still worse for the economy than the former.

#18 | Posted by Sully at 2013-02-21 12:33 PM | Reply | Flag:

The issue is whether environmental regulation always harms economic growth. "

No it's not. The issue is whether economic growth destroys the environment long-term. It does, regardless of some short-term benefits of affluence--like the ability to afford water-treatment plants or smoke stack scrubbers, which are themselves, a technological fix for the environmental degradation caused by economic growth.

#19 | Posted by nullifidian at 2013-02-21 12:56 PM | Reply | Flag:

"No it's not. The issue is whether economic growth destroys the environment long-term. It does, regardless of some short-term benefits of affluence--like the ability to afford water-treatment plants or smoke stack scrubbers, which are themselves, a technological fix for the environmental degradation caused by economic growth."

Countries that can't afford this stuff tend to be more populous and envrionmentally destructive.

Yes, to a certain extent just by the # of human beings we have living on this planet, human existence is always going to have a severe impact on the environment. But that doesn't make environmental laws pointless.

And unless you can convince 6 billion people to kill themselves, its a boring subject. Some day the sun will burn out anyway. Mind as well go on and on about that too.

#20 | Posted by Sully at 2013-02-21 02:19 PM | Reply | Flag:

" its a boring subject."

And yet you keep posting about it. Maybe you should find a thread that's less boring.

#21 | Posted by nullifidian at 2013-02-21 02:42 PM | Reply | Flag:

"One of our most brilliant, thoughtful, and persuasive, ecologists, Michael Rosenzweig..."

Take that on his word.

"...has looked at virtually every major facet of ecology over an illustrative career spanning more than four decades..."

Has he ever eaten or breathed??

"..focusing primarily on evolutionary, population and community ecology."

You are too dumb to comprehend, so just believe what follows.

"This tremendous range, from studying continent-wide species diversity patterns to understanding community ecology in the surrounding Sonoran (Arizona) desert, and finally, to interpreting major aspects of the fossil record from an ecological perspective, has led to..."

Drumroll, pleae!

".. the development of important, often novel, insights not only in ecology, but indeed, for much of evolutionary biology."

Gasp! I'd like a subscription to the Sunday New York Times, please!

"For example, in the early 1970s, independently of evolutionary biologist Leigh Van Vale"

I am sure he meant "independent" but both he and the editor were doing poppers in the West Village at the time.

"...(who would coin the term), Rosenzweig stumbled upon the Red Queen's Hypothesis."

Hmmm. Serious imagery there. Waiter! More poppers and a couple of pink Shermans.

"In his latest book, "Win-Win Ecology", Rosenzweig is a most infectious optimist..."

Backing my supposition about poppers in the West Village.

"...arguing persuasively for a new kind of conservation ecology, reconciliation ecology, that, by striving to strike a balance between humanity's demographic and economic pressures and the desire to save as much of Earth's biodiversity as possible, may become ultimately, the best - if not the sole - means of saving this biodiversity."

We have suffered enough of this nonsense. Why do these fops get credibility?

#22 | Posted by Diablo at 2013-02-22 12:07 AM | Reply | Flag:

"One of our most brilliant, thoughtful, and persuasive, ecologists, Michael Rosenzweig..."

Take that on his word.

"...has looked at virtually every major facet of ecology over an illustrative career spanning more than four decades..."

Has he ever eaten or breathed??

"..focusing primarily on evolutionary, population and community ecology."

You are too dumb to comprehend, so just believe what follows.

"This tremendous range, from studying continent-wide species diversity patterns to understanding community ecology in the surrounding Sonoran (Arizona) desert, and finally, to interpreting major aspects of the fossil record from an ecological perspective, has led to..."

Drumroll, pleae!

".. the development of important, often novel, insights not only in ecology, but indeed, for much of evolutionary biology."

Gasp! I'd like a subscription to the Sunday New York Times, please!

"For example, in the early 1970s, independently of evolutionary biologist Leigh Van Vale"

I am sure he meant "independent" but both he and the editor were doing poppers in the West Village at the time.

"...(who would coin the term), Rosenzweig stumbled upon the Red Queen's Hypothesis."

Hmmm. Serious imagery there. Waiter! More poppers and a couple of pink Shermans.

"In his latest book, "Win-Win Ecology", Rosenzweig is a most infectious optimist..."

Backing my supposition about poppers in the West Village.

"...arguing persuasively for a new kind of conservation ecology, reconciliation ecology, that, by striving to strike a balance between humanity's demographic and economic pressures and the desire to save as much of Earth's biodiversity as possible, may become ultimately, the best - if not the sole - means of saving this biodiversity."

We have suffered enough of this nonsense. Why do these fops get credibility?

#23 | Posted by Diablo at 2013-02-22 12:07 AM | Reply | Flag:

Except he's confusing short term profit making with economic growth.

We see no such no confusion.
Signed,
Bain Capital.

#24 | Posted by snoofy at 2013-02-22 05:43 PM | Reply | Flag:

We have suffered enough of this nonsense. Why do these fops get credibility?

That's what happens when a person spends years and decades researching a subject.

The fact that you don't give them any credibility is a rather powerful statement about you; and has nothing to do with them.

#25 | Posted by snoofy at 2013-02-22 05:48 PM | Reply | Flag:

#24

well, you can interchange those terms depending on how you want to spin it.

if you want to make economic growth seem dirty....call it "corporate profits or short term profits".

#26 | Posted by eberly at 2013-02-22 05:54 PM | Reply | Flag:

" economic growth seem dirty...."

Economic growth is dirty, environmentally. In fact, suicidal. Growth is the ideology of the cancer cell.

#27 | Posted by nullifidian at 2013-02-22 05:59 PM | Reply | Flag:

"Economic growth is dirty, environmentally. In fact, suicidal. Growth is the ideology of the cancer cell."

Why cars and gas are so expensive and also why the economy shrank last quarter.
Liberals hate freedom and prosperity.

#28 | Posted by Diablo at 2013-02-22 10:47 PM | Reply | Flag:

Growth is the ideology of the cancer cell.

#27 | Posted by nullifidian

sigh, u r mixed up (yet again)
is your inability to grasp simple reality at all treatable? (reversible)

"growth" is the normal condition of a HEALTHY organism

"no growth" or "negative growth" is condition of DYING organism

*PS- your analytical skills have shown no growth

#29 | Posted by roadrunner22 at 2013-02-22 11:03 PM | Reply | Flag:

#29- for example of negative growth, see Obama economy

#30 | Posted by roadrunner22 at 2013-02-22 11:04 PM | Reply | Flag:

29- for example of negative growth, see Dumya MBA's great recession

articles.marketwatch.com

#31 | Posted by reinheitsgebot at 2013-02-22 11:10 PM | Reply | Flag:

"Why cars and gas are so expensive and also why the economy shrank last quarter."

That's not a question. It's not even a sentence.

#32 | Posted by nullifidian at 2013-02-23 07:09 AM | Reply | Flag:

""Growth for the sake of growth is the ideology of the cancer cell.""

-Edward Abbey

The future will not be kind to the pimps for endless economic growth.

#33 | Posted by nullifidian at 2013-02-23 07:14 AM | Reply | Flag:

Edward Abbey - s3.amazonaws.com

#34 | Posted by Doc_Sarvis at 2013-02-23 07:19 AM | Reply | Flag:

#33 | POSTED BY NULLIFIDIAN

Don't worry Null when the Democrats are done with their Spending orgy what is left of humanity will be groveling in the dirt for a subsistence and your agrarian dream for the world will be complete.

#35 | Posted by paneocon at 2013-02-23 08:38 AM | Reply | Flag:

"and your agrarian dream for the world will be complete."

It's not up to me. It's Mother Nature that will put a stop to the madness of endless economic growth on a finite planet.

#36 | Posted by nullifidian at 2013-02-23 08:56 AM | Reply | Flag:

29- for example of negative growth, see Dumya MBA's great recession

#31 | Posted by reinheitsgebot

ooops, my bad, I neglected to spell it out at 5th grade level
- an ideological fool would not understand that RECESSION is the natural "market adjustment" phase of all business cycles

#37 | Posted by roadrunner22 at 2013-02-23 04:47 PM | Reply | Flag:

Divisiveness is always used by those with no ability and answers.

Certainly explains the Repubs.

#38 | Posted by jpw at 2013-02-23 09:36 PM | Reply | Flag:

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