Drudge Retort: Red Meat for Yellow Dogs
Tuesday, January 31, 2012

Around 60 to 80 percent of boys and 30 percent of girls play with aggressive toys at home, including guns. But there's no link between a child playing with toy guns and engaging in violence later in life, said by child psychologist Michael Thompson. "Everyone has an informal causation theory that playing with guns leads to the use of guns in adulthood," he said. "There's no scientific evidence suggesting that playing war games in childhood leads to real-life aggression."

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No shit. Same with video games. And TV. But every criminal has drunk milk.

#1 | Posted by northguy3 at 2012-01-31 06:00 PM | Reply | Flag:

It's shitty parents and shitty friends that do.

#2 | Posted by Sycophant at 2012-01-31 06:13 PM | Reply | Flag:

But every criminal has drunk milk.

#1 | Posted by northguy3 at 2012-01-31 06:00 PM | Reply | Flag:

Prove it.

#3 | Posted by e_pluribus_unum at 2012-01-31 06:19 PM | Reply | Flag:

There are a great many studies showing at least a correlative link between violent videogames and violent or aggressive behavior; there are no (credible, scientific) studies showing that there is absolutely no link (according to those I know who have done exhaustive review, including Bob McCannon). Certainly, there are studies showing short-term aggressive behavior and attention issues following extensive play of videogames (often violent, sometimes not). There are studies showing attention span issues of a similar nature, following viewing of television shows; anecdotally, I can assure you that my kids (otherwise attentive, polite, and in the case of the seven-year-old, studious) display attention issues and frustration following TV watching.

All that said, people on both sides of these issues need to be very careful about declaring causation for their own cause/suppositions.

Also, people's choices regarding use of whatever toys for their own children should be up to those parents, as long as they are not literally endangering their children (breaking the law). I should not tell someone that his kid playing with a toy gun is wrong, nor should he (this hypothetical he) tell me that my insistence that my kid not play with a toy gun is wrong. However, I don't think it's hypocritical to say that those who feel strongly should act and educate in lawful ways about matters they think are important. Getting people to think about their toy choices shouldn't be a bad thing.

(However, the neighbor I have whose kid was playing with real hatchets at the age of four... That seems kinda fucked up.)

#4 | Posted by pragmatist at 2012-01-31 06:33 PM | Reply | Flag:

There are a great many studies showing at least a correlative link between violent videogames and violent or aggressive behavior

Future drone pilots.

#5 | Posted by Ray at 2012-01-31 06:45 PM | Reply | Flag:

From article:
When they were little, we never got them water guns, and we'd avoid buying toy sets with guns," says Worth, 36, a journalist in Blue Springs, Mo. We thought it would make them more violent and teach them that shooting is OK.

It's a virtual lock, that this wimp, Worth, was the schoolyard punching bag from 1st grade through high school. No doubt his own kids are/were too.

JM

#6 | Posted by dockj at 2012-01-31 06:47 PM | Reply | Flag:

kids with toy guns don't kill - kids do...

really now - i thought it was heavy metal that kills

#7 | Posted by mutant at 2012-01-31 07:05 PM | Reply | Flag:

Certainly, there are studies showing short-term aggressive behavior and attention issues following extensive play of videogames

I would expect that type of behavior would be common after any kind of competition, whether you are involved, or to a lesser extent, spectating.

#8 | Posted by northguy3 at 2012-01-31 07:07 PM | Reply | Flag:

Future drone pilots.

I remember how much they lauded video games for giving bomber pilots great skill in Gulf 1.

#9 | Posted by northguy3 at 2012-01-31 07:08 PM | Reply | Flag:

It is good to see the public become educated rather than to be ruled by the gun phobics.

#10 | Posted by Dirk at 2012-01-31 07:39 PM | Reply | Flag:

When I grew up we all played with top guns and eventually owned real ones for hunting in our teens (BB/Pellet, .22, 12 ga, 30-30, 30-06 etc.) I do not know of even one incident among of the hundreds with which I attended school.

#11 | Posted by MSgt at 2012-01-31 07:57 PM | Reply | Flag:

5--Oddly, I find myself agreeing with Ray. Yes, there is also research on this very topic. And yes, the military uses videogames for training. And yes (anecdote alert), one of my graduates who was a big gamer is now a drone (UAV) pilot for the Marines. He's a good lad, btw.

8--No, it's about glittering images and mind-numbing flickers. Playing football might contribute to aggression but it doesn't do what video does. Video images operate on the brain in ways other things do not. Again, I think we need to be careful about causation, but I don't believe (and research doesn't show) that the same sort of behavior is true of non-video experiences. Not that there aren't addictions of many kinds.... (Please be cognizant of how careful I'm being. There are connections, but causation is really, really tough to nail down.)

#12 | Posted by pragmatist at 2012-01-31 08:00 PM | Reply | Flag:

#11 - top=toy

#13 | Posted by MSgt at 2012-01-31 08:05 PM | Reply | Flag:

donning safety googles and alot of clothes and shooting each other with BBguns and tossing the occasional M80 or pack of fire crackers was a fun way to spend a hot June evening in the city 0h my....good times....like baseball and pie.

I wonder if the Iraqi kids played with guns as they sure showed us that they know how to make boms and had no problem trying to shoot at us troops in crafty ways...not very accurate as those VC did decades ago tho..

#14 | Posted by mutant at 2012-01-31 09:03 PM | Reply | Flag:

Oh crap - I forgot - not the Iraqis, but it was those dead ender Al quedians....my bad

#15 | Posted by mutant at 2012-01-31 09:20 PM | Reply | Flag:

I've long suspected that kids playing with toy guns was no biggie now if they would only come out with a study that says being bullied as a kid makes for a more well adjusted adult my childhood schoolmates will have to thank me for their success in life at our next reunion

#16 | Posted by Gimme_a_Scotch at 2012-01-31 10:03 PM | Reply | Flag:

There are a great many studies showing at least a correlative link between violent videogames and violent or aggressive behavior

Yeah but what's the cart and what's the horse?

It would make sense that kids with violent thoughts/tendencies would gravitate towards violent games. Their interest is because they're violent, they're not violent because of their interest.

#17 | Posted by jpw at 2012-01-31 10:18 PM | Reply | Flag:

17--A valid point. But if it exacerbates an already existing problem, then it's part of the problem, and not irrelevant to point out the negatives. But then, we get interesting arguments like "It's good for people to have violent games; it helps them blow off steam/channel their negative efforts."

Again, I'm not equipped to make the argument that violent videogames cause violence, but I think just blowing off the concern (not that you're doing that) is oversimplifying at best. There are many factors that contribute to violence in our society. I'd say violent videogames could well be among them; and there's some science behind the argument. I don't think there's science behind the counterargument. For those who really are interested, there's tons of literature out there. I could probably get some links from my media-ed colleagues, and y'all could evaluate for yourselves. : )

On an anecdotal professional level, I can assure you that videogames (violent or not) can be extremely addictive. I've known kids who are sucked right in, to the exclusion of all else. A comparison to drug use (say, pot) is not without validity.

#18 | Posted by pragmatist at 2012-01-31 10:32 PM | Reply | Flag:

"I'd say violent videogames could well be among them; and there's some science behind the argument."

I'm not so sure it's so much the violence as the frustration from inevitable defeat.

When I was in university "Space Invaders" was the thin edge of the wedge. It didn't matter how good you were, it just kept getting harder and faster until you lost.

There was no "win". Just how long you went before you lost.

#19 | Posted by REDIAL at 2012-01-31 10:42 PM | Reply | Flag:

There was no "win". Just how long you went before you lost.

#19 | POSTED BY REDIAL AT 2012-01-31 10:42 PM | REPLY | FLAG: Has not played a video game since 1982

#20 | Posted by soheifox at 2012-01-31 10:47 PM | Reply | Flag:

Redial is one old fucker.

'Space invaders'... is that what the Founding Fathers played?

#21 | Posted by LIVE_OR_DIE at 2012-01-31 10:56 PM | Reply | Flag:

Has not played a video game since 1982

LOL

I've killed Diablo, Lord of Terror twice now. Possibly a third time in the fairly near future.

Although his description is pretty accurate for WoW.

#22 | Posted by jpw at 2012-01-31 10:57 PM | Reply | Flag:

The founding fathers played 'Asteroids'. 'Space Invaders' was before their time.

#23 | Posted by JeffJ at 2012-01-31 11:03 PM | Reply | Flag:

Although his description is pretty accurate for WoW.

#22 | POSTED BY JPW AT 2012-01-31 10:57 PM | REPLY | FLAG:

Not really. while you're running on a treadmill in Wow, I hear, you can absolutely never "lose".

#24 | Posted by soheifox at 2012-01-31 11:12 PM | Reply | Flag:

Although his description is pretty accurate for WoW.

#22 | Posted by jpw at 2012-01-31 10:57 PM

It's the opposite. You win the same thing over and over hoping to get that one super special weapon, finally get it after 100 wins clearing the same instance, only to have to shart it a month later when a new expansion comes out because the common drops are better.

(glad I gave that POS game up, lol)

#25 | Posted by LIVE_OR_DIE at 2012-01-31 11:14 PM | Reply | Flag:

Todays video games are a movie in which you get to play a part, grow up and get an Xbox 360.

You old foggies who think the height of the gaming era ended with pong don't know what you are missing.

#26 | Posted by RexZeitgeist at 2012-01-31 11:19 PM | Reply | Flag:

Todays video games are a movie in which you get to play a part, grow up and get an Xbox 360.

#26 | Posted by RexZeitgeist at 2012-01-31 11:19 PM

Well put. Even among a popular franchise like Batman, the video games are better than the movies.

#27 | Posted by LIVE_OR_DIE at 2012-01-31 11:22 PM | Reply | Flag:

The founding fathers played 'Asteroids'. 'Space Invaders' was before their time.

#23 | POSTED BY JEFFJ AT 2012-01-31 11:03 PM | REPLY | FLAG:

...and for the record, Asteroids came out after Space Invaders. As the owner and operator of a radio station which hosts old video game commercials, I have far more knowledge of retrogaming than is healthy.

#28 | Posted by soheifox at 2012-01-31 11:23 PM | Reply | Flag:

video games are like beatin off - no real gain for anyone but yerself...electron manipulation have nothing to show for when done....get a real girlfriend or a real hobby ...like model building ...at least you get to sniff the glue...and it helps to put the glue into a paper bag while sniffin....basically we have too much time on our hands...among other gooey things/stuff on 'em.

remember "spacewars" we young urchins used to sneek into the bar to play that one....

#29 | Posted by mutant at 2012-01-31 11:27 PM | Reply | Flag:

NBA 2k12 is the bees knees, they have a hard time keeping up with todays athletes, but if you didn't know any better and walked in on a game on a big screen, a person would be hard pressed to tell the difference between the real game and the video game.

From intro to end it is top notch.

I'm playing Dead Red Redemption right now, great game, I'm only half way through and I am already slightly sad it's almost over.

#30 | Posted by RexZeitgeist at 2012-01-31 11:28 PM | Reply | Flag:

You old foggies who think the height of the gaming era ended with pong don't know what you are missing.

#26 | POSTED BY REXZEITGEIST AT 2012-01-31 11:19 PM | REPLY | FLAG

What are you, twelve? I have a Wii, 360, PS3 and 3DS. I know what modern gaming systems are good for. I know what they are not. The fact that a lot of them are a movie in which you take part is a lot of the problem; it's pretty but it's barely a game. Except for rare gems like Arkham Asylum/City, La Noire, and sandbox games, it's sort of a same same snorefest. There are some nice epic RPGS, and some genuinely thought-provoking "movies" (like the aforementioned LA Noire) but most of the rEALLY good stuff (League of Legends) could have been done on the systems of yesteryear and been the same damned game, just VERY slightly less pretty.

#31 | Posted by soheifox at 2012-01-31 11:30 PM | Reply | Flag:

I'be got the Batman games, (including the Lego Batman) I started them, but I want to start and finish a game now, not jump from game to game without ever getting to the end.

I have about 60% of all 360 games ever made and outside of NBA and NFL games, I have only finished Mafia II.

This may take a decade or two.

#32 | Posted by RexZeitgeist at 2012-01-31 11:31 PM | Reply | Flag:

Red Dead Redemption is definitely one of the good ones, though. You can be Marshall Dillon, Billy the Kid, or just a lazy fucktard, and it's all viable for the game. Freedom, real freedom.

#33 | Posted by soheifox at 2012-01-31 11:32 PM | Reply | Flag:

Not really. while you're running on a treadmill in Wow, I hear, you can absolutely never "lose".

Well I guess I don't consider never losing winning.

WoW has no real endpoint. There's always something more to do. I guess that's its greatest strength and weakness (for me at least).

It's the opposite. You win the same thing over and over hoping to get that one super special weapon, finally get it after 100 wins clearing the same instance, only to have to shart it a month later when a new expansion comes out because the common drops are better.

Then there's that.

#34 | Posted by jpw at 2012-01-31 11:41 PM | Reply | Flag:

Mafia II is crackin....You can get wild and just blow shit up and go on a killing wild spree, or complete the mission stealth style.

#35 | Posted by RexZeitgeist at 2012-01-31 11:44 PM | Reply | Flag:

Let me put it this way: modern singleplayer/co-op games? 5% of them are epic, games you'll remember for years and keep coming back to. 5% of them are just.. really decent and fun, and you can pick them up now and then for fun. 90% of them are really awesome.. for about 16 hours. Then they'll go on your shelf and collect dust.

I gave a 15 year old whose family entered poverty the doubles of my 2600 collection and 9 months later he plays those more than nearly anything else; the flavor of the month games he'd had before had very little lasting power. It's not really even debatable. The height of the gaming era began with the VCS and ended with Super NES.

#36 | Posted by soheifox at 2012-01-31 11:46 PM | Reply | Flag:

Mind you said 15 year old thought he was too "hardcore" for a Wii, but I bet if he had one of those my lowly 2600 games would have gotten less attention. The games that "hardcore" gamers refer to as shovelware generally have more lasting power than the latest CoD.

#37 | Posted by soheifox at 2012-01-31 11:49 PM | Reply | Flag:

Well put. Even among a popular franchise like Batman, the video games are better than the movies.

#27 | Posted by LIVE_OR_DIE

My 11-year old son got Arkham Asylum and Arkham City for Christmas in addition to a slew of other games as well. He's already finished Asylum and absolutely loved it and has begun playing City which he claims is not as good as Asylum.

PS - I have no idea how he finished Asylum so quickly as he's been playing his other games as well AND we ration the amount of time our children have to play video games. He really likes Bastion which is admittedly a cool game with great narration and a great musical score.

#38 | Posted by JeffJ at 2012-01-31 11:49 PM | Reply | Flag:

Mind you said 15 year old thought he was too "hardcore" for a Wii, but I bet if he had one of those my lowly 2600 games would have gotten less attention. The games that "hardcore" gamers refer to as shovelware generally have more lasting power than the latest CoD.

#37 | Posted by soheifox at 2012-01-31 11:49 PM

Us hardcore gamers have all consoles, and a game ready PC.

#39 | Posted by LIVE_OR_DIE at 2012-02-01 12:05 AM | Reply | Flag:

#38 | POSTED BY JEFFJ AT 2012-01-31 11:49 PM | REPLY | FLAG

Because Aylum's actually kinda short unless you do optional events. City may well seem lesser to him because it forces you to take time.

#40 | Posted by soheifox at 2012-02-01 12:05 AM | Reply | Flag:

Because Aylum's actually kinda short unless you do optional events. City may well seem lesser to him because it forces you to take time.

I don't doubt that.

My boys like to charge through games as fast as possible and then backtrack and sift through the nuance.

#41 | Posted by JeffJ at 2012-02-01 12:09 AM | Reply | Flag:

I am not a big fan of the Wii.

However, for Christmas I received 2 excellent RPGs that were both Wii-based - Skyward Sword and Okami (yes, Okami was originally a PS2 game, but was altered for the better for the Wii - I am talking about the mechanics of the Celestial Paint-brush).

Nintendo also produced, by all accounts, a tremendous RPG in Xenoblade Chronicles.

It is slated to come to the US in April.

#42 | Posted by JeffJ at 2012-02-01 12:14 AM | Reply | Flag:

Since it's been mentioned....

soheifox which champs do you like on league of legends?

With a purported 30 million+ active players, the likelihood of other DRtards playing lol is not insignificant.

Fizz, ap sion, and kassadin make for a good start

And how bout dat skyrim????

/nerd

#43 | Posted by Zarathustra at 2012-02-01 03:19 AM | Reply | Flag:

anyway, more on topic...

ph.d candidates I know who do research in clinical psychology do their best to fit fancy structural equation models which implicate video games in real world violence...but it just never pans out.

they get excited over r-squared values of .03; granted, there's a lot of inter-individual differences between many varieties of people who play video games, but they aren't engaged in real science, no matter how one construes it. it's the hackneyed correlation/causation thing...they don't have the experimental controls to prove anything.

#44 | Posted by Zarathustra at 2012-02-01 03:50 AM | Reply | Flag:

If anything video games and toy guns provide a healthy outlet for aggression that proves helpful for it's cathartic aspect.

They are NOT a significant trigger for real world violence.

People who try to insist they do prolly need to take up a hobby.

Be Well.

#45 | Posted by dethspud at 2012-02-01 04:53 AM | Reply | Flag:

People who try to insist they do prolly need to take up a hobby.

#45 | POSTED BY DETHSPUD

Like video games ;)

#46 | Posted by Tedly at 2012-02-01 05:17 AM | Reply | Flag:

Like video games ;)

Yuppo, Spud is still enjoying the crap outta Skyrim here.

S'fun.

Be Well.

#47 | Posted by dethspud at 2012-02-01 05:23 AM | Reply | Flag:

Video images operate on the brain in ways other things do not. Again, I think we need to be careful about causation, but I don't believe (and research doesn't show) that the same sort of behavior is true of non-video experiences. Not that there aren't addictions of many kinds...

You're getting close to the truth.

Viewing and listening to television alters brain rhythm in a way not heretofore accessible at the flick of a switch.
This happens independently of the content displayed, at a non-conscious level.
Simultaneously, the conscious mind is also altered by the experience, which is somewhat less independent of the content.

#48 | Posted by snoofy at 2012-02-01 06:34 AM | Reply | Flag:

#43 | POSTED BY ZARATHUSTRA AT 2012-02-01 03:19 AM | REPLY | FLAG

I do a lot of Sona. I enjoy support. Sometimes I grab Warwick and jungle. I also own Ahri and Akali, so I can play nearly any role on a team.

#49 | Posted by soheifox at 2012-02-01 12:07 PM | Reply | Flag:

"Everyone has an informal causation theory that playing with guns leads to the use of guns in adulthood," says Michael Thompson, PhD

That's a dumb inference to make before conducting the study. "Everyone"? So the statistical probability of over reacting to child's play is 100%? Doubtful.

I'm an avid gamer and don't really make the distinction between a "war"/"aggressive" game and a passive game. I like games where you compete against other people, as teams or 1v1. Driving, FPS, and (non-dota)RTS titles are preferred, "war" has nothing to do with it.

I think a better correlation to explore between game play and real life anti-social behavior is with people who cheat at games, troll, and team kill. I suspect they are the kids who bury cats alive and had parents who loved them too much.

#50 | Posted by BluSky at 2012-02-01 12:58 PM | Reply | Flag:

I lead a troop of scouts. I had a parent get offended that another leader and I were talking openly about guns and going to the range.

#51 | Posted by STIRSUMUP at 2012-02-01 01:11 PM | Reply | Flag:

Anyone else used to own a Commodore 64 back in the day? I used to trade games and had hundreds, if not over a thousand. IMO, it was the top gaming platform for a while. Then PC games started getting good and Nintendo started the 2nd wave of console gaming...

Before that, my family had a Commodore Vic 20, and most of the games I had for that one were on audio cassette. There was a tape recorder device that hooked up to the Vic 20 and to load a game into the system you'd literally have to hit "play" on the recorder after inputing the BASIC commands on the screen. Would take 15-45 mins just to get a game going. That was a real commitment for an eight year old. Couldn't just switch between games at will. And it really only played rip-offs of popular arcade games - Snackman instead of Pacman. Amok instead of Bezerk. Gorf instead of Galaga.....

#52 | Posted by Sully at 2012-02-01 01:20 PM | Reply | Flag:

.... "Toy Guns Don't Turn Boys into Criminals"

**** NO...But the US Military does!!!

#53 | Posted by AntiCadillac at 2012-02-01 07:13 PM | Reply | Flag:

Hell, I remember PONG as a young kid!!

Got hooked on Asteroids for a while in college. Still an all-time classic! Couple buddies and I would get oiled up in the pub (drinking age in Mass. was 18 at the time) and drop a bunch of coin on 'Roids, before the usual search for chicks.

JM

#54 | Posted by dockj at 2012-02-01 08:14 PM | Reply | Flag:

"Anyone else used to own a Commodore 64 back in the day?"

Yup. Upgrade from the Vic-20. Then went to the 128 and then the Amiga 2000.

#55 | Posted by REDIAL at 2012-02-01 10:26 PM | Reply | Flag:

"Gorf instead of Galaga....."

Gad, I almost choked on that one! I played Gorf when I was 20-something. And Choplifter. And all those Infocom text adventures.

Odd, but that's one of the few things I remember from those days.

#56 | Posted by REDIAL at 2012-02-01 10:31 PM | Reply | Flag:

Playing games with imagination, is a far cry to the propagandizing and dog training shown to work on people as early as experiments with Wilhelm Wundt and Edward Bernays.

TV, Movies, magazines and advertising leveraged a sea change in reversing the sexes thought of roles, from men being men, to women thinking they are men and men becoming effeminate (metrosexual).

You are just parroting the words that were given to you, the thoughts installed and the culture given to you by your masters.

Wake the F' Up!

PS latest research in UK has shown men and women really do think completely differently; no kidding, political correctness is wrong again.

Every tyranny has targeted the men first in a gendercide, and then the women and children were easy pickings. Recently e.g., the Turks against the Armenians, the Germans with their population, the Romans in the past. Want to know why your politicians don't care about what you think? Cause they have destroyed the men almost completely...good luck ladies.

#57 | Posted by Jeffglobal at 2012-02-02 10:36 AM | Reply | Flag:

"And Choplifter."

I had Choplifter too. That and Gorf were catridges. Everything else was on audio cassette or later 5 1/4" floppies.

#58 | Posted by Sully at 2012-02-02 12:30 PM | Reply | Flag:

Choplifter.....that takes me back. Remember Dung-beetle?

#59 | Posted by kanrei at 2012-02-02 12:31 PM | Reply | Flag:

Choplifter

Ruled.

Played the crap outta that one back in the day.

See also: Loderunner.

Be Well.

#60 | Posted by dethspud at 2012-02-02 12:58 PM | Reply | Flag:

57--JeffNDenmark is back?

#61 | Posted by pragmatist at 2012-02-02 02:21 PM | Reply | Flag:

The results of this study can be summed up in one word: "Duh."

I'm thinking maybe this guy needs to broaden his circle of peers if he thinks "Everyone has an informal causation theory that playing with guns leads to the use of guns in adulthood." Sounds more like he had an informal causation theory and had to disprove it to himself.

#62 | Posted by JuicyJMillions at 2012-02-02 03:00 PM | Reply | Flag:

I am sure all you DR lefty mommy's boys who play these kill'em games agree.

#63 | Posted by glasshouse at 2012-02-02 07:59 PM | Reply | Flag:

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