Drudge Retort: Red Meat for Yellow Dogs
Friday, January 27, 2012

Richard Vedder: As college costs rise, however, people are asking: Aren't there cheaper ways of certifying competence and skills to employers? ... [I]f companies can find good employees with high-school diplomas who have demonstrated necessary skills and competency via some cheaper (to society) means, they might be able to hire workers more cheaply than before -- paying wages that are high by high-school-graduate standards, but low relative to college-graduate norms. Employers can capture the huge savings of reduced certification costs.

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Hooray! The GED of a bachelors degree. Surely to be accepted by all companies as equivalent to an Ivy League education.

#1 | Posted by 726 at 2012-01-27 08:51 AM | Reply | Flag:

#1 | POSTED BY 726 AT 2012-01-27 08:51 AM

Why do you care, I doubt you even have a GED.

#2 | Posted by glasshouse at 2012-01-27 08:53 AM | Reply | Flag:

Why do you care, I doubt you even have a GED.
#2 | Posted by glasshouse at 2012-01-27 08:53 AM | Reply | Flag: Nearly Has GED In Hand & Proud Of It

#3 | Posted by Doc_Sarvis at 2012-01-27 09:01 AM | Reply | Flag:

About time---it's interesting how when the dollars are no longer there, that we start to get religion and allow competition to enter the economy. This country has been one big crony socialism structure and it looks like we just might be returning to some capitalism. It's long overdue.

#4 | Posted by matsop at 2012-01-27 09:04 AM | Reply | Flag:

"There are other promising approaches. The Saylor Foundation, Khan Academy, the Learning Company, and others have developed low- or no-cost high-quality course materials."

The Khan Academy is free online and is great but it does not pretend to substitute for education. This is a thinly veiled commercial for private online schools who want to profit by providing access to information which is already available for free. Ask yourself, do you want the nurse who is taking your blood to have been educated online?
The cost of education is huge but the cost of not educating our people is much larger.

#5 | Posted by danni at 2012-01-27 09:08 AM | Reply | Flag:

#3 | Posted by Doc_Sarvis at 2012-01-27 09:01 AM | Reply

Acquired his General Equivalency Dunderhead on his 51st birthday after 6 attempts and has it proudly taped on a concrete block in his basement hovel next to a picture of Alfred Neuman.

www.google.com

#6 | Posted by matsop at 2012-01-27 09:16 AM | Reply | Flag:

"This is a thinly veiled commercial for private online schools who want to profit by providing access to information which is already available for free."

What is troubling about a lot of online schools is that they wind up costing as much as some of the most expensive brick and mortar schools while providing a fraction of the education. Now the idea that a school would charge a fee for gathering and presenting information that is already available for free to one with the resources and drive to find it, I don't have as much trouble with, in and of itself. But that would depend on the price.

#7 | Posted by Hagbard_Celine at 2012-01-27 09:35 AM | Reply | Flag:

I doubt you even have a GED.

#2 | POSTED BY GLASSHOUSE AT 2012-01-27 08:53 AM | REPLY | FLAG:

Too funny. Good to see you gradiated from the posting in your mom's basement comments.

Atta boy Sweetchuck.

#8 | Posted by 726 at 2012-01-27 09:50 AM | Reply | Flag:

Ask yourself, do you want the nurse who is taking your blood to have been educated online?
The cost of education is huge but the cost of not educating our people is much larger.

#5 | POSTED BY DANNI AT 2012-01-27 09:08 AM | REPLY | FLAG

University Of Phoenix Recruiter LIES To Undercover ABC Producer About Job Possibilities

www.huffingtonpost.com

#9 | Posted by 726 at 2012-01-27 09:52 AM | Reply | Flag:

www.khanacademy.org

I highly recommend for anyone looking to expand his/her/its horizons. Be warned that he does not put much political spin, so it you might be disappointed when the mathematics courses don't feature pachyderms and equidae.

The lessons on fractional reserve banking are excellent and fairly comprehensive, although, for most drudgies I would recommend starting with basic addition and subtraction before tackling them.

#10 | Posted by SHEEPLESHEPERD at 2012-01-27 09:57 AM | Reply | Flag:

We should be telescoping education. 8th grade America won a world war and built the greatest country the world had ever seen. 18th grade America can't do much of anything. Our kids take course material as juniors and seniors that I knocked out in the 8th grade, then learn the rest their first two years of college. It's a joke.

#11 | Posted by rightisright at 2012-01-27 10:05 AM | Reply | Flag:

"Ivy League education"

Harvard reports 40% of freshmen require remedial classes to bring them up to speed.

#12 | Posted by KBM at 2012-01-27 10:27 AM | Reply | Flag:

#6 | Posted by matsop

Binge drinking's gonna be the death of you yet, Mudflap.

#13 | Posted by Doc_Sarvis at 2012-01-27 11:21 AM | Reply | Flag:

Richard Vedder...loved his early stuff with Pearl Jam

#14 | Posted by justanoversight at 2012-01-27 01:49 PM | Reply | Flag:

She votes Republican
She votes DNC
Can't find a Better man
She dreams in color
She dreams Blue and Red
Can't find a Better man

#15 | Posted by kanrei at 2012-01-27 01:51 PM | Reply | Flag:

Ask yourself, do you want the nurse who is taking your blood to have been educated online?

#5 | Posted by danni at 2012-01-27 09:08 AM | Reply | Flag:

Here's your answer:

www.google.com.tw

Most nursing schools have gone to partial or full-online training. Most nurses have families and jobs that are not convenient to a college.

A guy I know completed his masters from the University of Tennessee while he was shuttling wounded soldiers from Iraq to Germany.

A degree is not permission to practice. Clinical people still need to pass state boards.

#16 | Posted by vernon at 2012-01-27 01:52 PM | Reply | Flag:

We should be telescoping education. 8th grade America won a world war and built the greatest country the world had ever seen. 18th grade America can't do much of anything.

#11 | Posted by rightisright at 2012-01-27 10:05 AM | Reply | Flag: Flag:

Yeah!....because all of those people who designed the weaponry used to win that world war were 8th grade educated too......Sure.

#17 | Posted by COMMONSENSE at 2012-01-27 01:52 PM | Reply | Flag:

Yeah!....because all of those people who designed the weaponry used to win that world war were 8th grade educated too......Sure.

#17 | POSTED BY COMMONSENSE AT 2012-01-27 01:52 PM | REPLY | FLAG:

Don't forget all them colonists that won the Revolutionary war... lots of them never made it to the 8th grade!

#18 | Posted by 726 at 2012-01-27 01:58 PM | Reply | Flag:

The price has increased at a rate greater than inflation since before I went to university. Similar to housing and .com nothing can continue on such a trajectory.

#19 | Posted by visitor_ at 2012-01-27 02:19 PM | Reply | Flag:

We should be telescoping education. 8th grade America won a world war and built the greatest country the world had ever seen. 18th grade America can't do much of anything.
#11 | Posted by rightisright at 2012-01-27 10:05 AM | Reply | Flag: Flag:

This is an excellent point but are we prepared to give less educated citizens a good life? The GOP says no.

#20 | Posted by BruceBanner at 2012-01-27 02:37 PM | Reply | Flag:

She votes Republican
She votes DNC
Can't find a Better man
She dreams in color
She dreams Blue and Red
Can't find a Better man

#15 | POSTED BY KANREI

Very well done

#21 | Posted by justanoversight at 2012-01-27 02:57 PM | Reply | Flag:

Thank you =D

#22 | Posted by kanrei at 2012-01-27 03:02 PM | Reply | Flag:

This is an excellent point but are we prepared to give less educated citizens a good life?

I wouldn't necessarily use the term "less" but rather "more appropriate".

IMO, the biggest problem with higher education such as Bachelor's degrees is that we have too many folks with them and still have no skills and we have too many people who have wasted their time pursuing a Bachelors degree, don't have one, and still have a lot of debt as a result.

Personally, my wish list is for us to have fewer folks wasting their time at a university when they are more suited for technical training, that largely can be started in high school. They can be out earning a decent living early in life with little costs.

I'm not saying that it's a tragedy for someone to spend time at a university and not do much with the degree if they still benefit in some way from the experience. Rather, if we stop cramming folks into universities just because they are convinced it's the only path, then higher education will start getting priced accordingly. Furthermore, if some smaller schools start getting more competitive with pricing and still get great results...that might make college more affordable.

#23 | Posted by eberly at 2012-01-27 03:03 PM | Reply | Flag:

Brick and mortor Ivory Towers are no longer relevent in the era of the internet. We should burn some of them down to the ground and start with the Ivy League where they graduated Idiots likew Obama, Kerry and Bush.

#24 | Posted by fwthom at 2012-01-27 03:38 PM | Reply | Flag:

#24 - Your solution is burn down Harvard, Yale, and Columbia?

#25 | Posted by BruceBanner at 2012-01-27 03:47 PM | Reply | Flag:

I doubt you even have a GED.

#2 | POSTED BY GLASSHOUSE AT 2012-01-27 08:53 AM

Too funny. Good to see you gradiated from the posting in your mom's basement comments.

Atta boy Sweetchuck.

#8 | Posted by 726 at 2012-01-27 09:50 AM

AssHouse mops floors for a living. He also needs to put down the bong, get laid, and suit up for his job at McDonald's. Additionally, I hear he drinks a lot.

#26 | Posted by LIVE_OR_DIE at 2012-01-27 03:48 PM | Reply | Flag:

I thought you got your degree from Columbia?

I did, but now they want me to get one from America.

-Community

#27 | Posted by kanrei at 2012-01-27 03:48 PM | Reply | Flag:

Ask yourself, do you want the nurse who is taking your blood to have been educated online?
The cost of education is huge but the cost of not educating our people is much larger.

#5 | POSTED BY DANNI AT 2012-01-27 09:08 AM

Danni: Most of the military services train their own LPN's. The training is one year very intense. Half of the class does not make it to the end. When they graduate, they are (were) required to take the State Board in the state that they trained in to be licensed to pratice in that state. Most of them move to other states or overseas so they are not certified where they are at but the military has a certification that they are qualified. What is different from their training and an RN's training is that they do not take all the BS courses that all colleges require to get a degree. In short medically they are as well trained as any RN and if they go to college to get the BS classes out of the way, they would be RN's except: None of the nurseing colleges in the US accept the training that they have received and require them to attend the full course. Now think about the LPN's that are at Military Hospitals. Do you really think that they do not have the training???? Or is it that the college wants to make more money. Most fail to realize that Universities are nothing more than business. They want to make a profit. They have convinced people that with out a degree you can not get a job. They are lying to you so as to make more money, just like any other business.

#28 | Posted by Anon451 at 2012-01-27 03:49 PM | Reply | Flag:

Kids are getting to college less prepared and graduating college less educated. Liberal Arts are important but are beginning to dominate education. Worse, we are graduating way too many kids with unemployable majors and a complete lack of skills.

#29 | Posted by Sycophant at 2012-01-27 04:01 PM | Reply | Flag:

#23 | Posted by eberly at 2012-01-27 03:03 PM

Eberly: Most computer programers that are fresh out of school are dumber then a load of rocks. They know the basics but do not know how things really work. After about 5 years working with experanced programers then is when they will either shine or find themselves looking for a new career. A short college (1 year all text book) then an appenticship program of 2 to 4 years would be much better. Give me someone without a degree but 5 - 10 years working in the field and you will get a good employee.

#30 | Posted by Anon451 at 2012-01-27 04:03 PM | Reply | Flag:

Kids are getting to college less prepared and graduating college less educated. Liberal Arts are important but are beginning to dominate education. Worse, we are graduating way too many kids with unemployable majors and a complete lack of skills.

#29 | Posted by Sycophant at 2012-01-27 04:01 PM

Agreed. However, "Girls Gone Wild" would die without art and history majors.

#31 | Posted by LIVE_OR_DIE at 2012-01-27 04:03 PM | Reply | Flag:

#31 Let's not forget to acknowledge our good friend vodka.

#32 | Posted by BruceBanner at 2012-01-27 04:05 PM | Reply | Flag:

#29 | Posted by Sycophant at 2012-01-27 04:01 PM | Reply | Flag:

Correct.

One can only wonder just how one would let the supply of suitably trained students be determined.

I know, we can have a government agency determine what to teach our children to best meet the demand of industry...

Cuz that always works (and by works I mean fails miserably).

#33 | Posted by SHEEPLESHEPERD at 2012-01-27 04:08 PM | Reply | Flag:

Aren't there cheaper ways of certifying competence and skills to employers?

Posted by vernon

Yes. By shifting the cost of "weeding out" undesirables from the former process of schooling, to the customer who would now have to weed them out instead.

The employer isn't only interested in competence and skills. Any smartass possess those things. Can you show up for work? And are you reliable when you get there?

If you've at least stuck it out and finished school, chances are the answers to those questions are yes and yes.

#34 | Posted by BloodSacrafice at 2012-01-27 05:20 PM | Reply | Flag:

It already burst and gave birth to dok and hands, the say nothing twins.

#35 | Posted by Sniper at 2012-01-27 05:34 PM | Reply | Flag:

24 - Your solution is burn down Harvard, Yale, and Columbia?

#25 | Posted by BruceBanner

Might be a good start.

#36 | Posted by Sniper at 2012-01-27 05:38 PM | Reply | Flag:

Might be a good start.

I always think I've got a bead on the depths of human stupidity.

Then sniper chimes in.

#37 | Posted by jpw at 2012-01-27 07:47 PM | Reply | Flag:

USC Football recruiter lies to applicant.

#9 | POSTED BY 726 AT 2012-01-27 09:52 AM | REPLY

You are a fucking dork

#38 | Posted by glasshouse at 2012-01-27 08:01 PM | Reply | Flag:

#1 | POSTED BY 726 AT 2012-01-27 08:51 AM

Why do you care, I doubt you even have a GED.

#2 | Posted by glasshouse at 2012-01-27 08:53 AM | Reply | Flag:

It damn sure didn't graduate from an Ivy league.

#39 | Posted by Washboard at 2012-01-27 09:28 PM | Reply | Flag:

Ask yourself, do you want the nurse who is taking your blood to have been educated online?

#5 | Posted by danni at 2012-01-27 09:08 AM |

Already happening. In fact you can even become a nurse practioner and have never even practiced as a nurse.

How bout dat, eh?

#40 | Posted by Washboard at 2012-01-27 09:31 PM | Reply | Flag:

Ask yourself, do you want the nurse who is taking your blood to have been educated online?

#5 | Posted by danni at 2012-01-27 09:08 AM |

Already happening. In fact you can even become a nurse practioner and have never even practiced as a nurse.

How bout dat, eh?

#41 | Posted by Washboard at 2012-01-27 09:36 PM | Reply | Flag:

more asset and debt inflation, for the Banks.

#42 | Posted by nutcase at 2012-01-27 10:34 PM | Reply | Flag:

#23 Give me someone without a degree but 5 - 10 years working in the field and you will get a good employee.

I disagree. There are exceptions - but the 90's flooded the market with "computer programmers" that were not trained in the disciplnes of science. Chemistry, physics, calculus, biology, the arts -- all of these courses teach the future software engineer scientifc process and analytical thinking; crucial to a good producer.

I can usually tell a person with a CS degree and one without in interviews and in the work place. There is a difference in being able to produce something and producing something well.

#43 | Posted by FrankA at 2012-01-28 06:30 AM | Reply | Flag:

The government handing out cheap money to help students pay for college caused an artificial demand for college enrollment, thus driving up the cost of going to college. Also, because colleges know there is this cheap supply of money out there for them they have less incentives to keep cost down.

For every government action there is private sector reaction, and it's usually inflationary.

#44 | Posted by 90c2cab at 2012-01-28 08:42 AM | Reply | Flag:

I would say what is going to kill the traditional universities would be the advent of online universities. There really is no need for the traditional bricks and mortar setup nor the high cost associated with it. There is no reason in the world why every student in this country cannot have an ivy league level education via their computer. If the fucking teachers union wasn't so strong my guess is the top 1000 professors would already have classes being sold online...leaving the rest of these government leaches to make a real living.

#45 | Posted by Dirk at 2012-01-28 09:09 AM | Reply | Flag:

"Do you really think that they do not have the training???? Or is it that the college wants to make more money."

My daughter happens to be an LPN. The training to become one is very "hands on" and certainly could not be gained online. I don't believe everyone needs college but I also do not think that most of the online "colleges" provide training adequate or even acceptable to really find jobs or do the tasks that LPNs or other semi-professional people need to do. They take money which should ONLY go to legitimate schools who can prove that they actually place their students in jobs and that those students can actually do those jobs, and the price should not be so excessive as to burden graduates with debt out of proportion to the incomes they can reasonably expect. Most often, I believe only public institutions should qualify for Pell Grants or federally guaranteed student loans, I'm sure there are reasonable exceptions to that but for the most part that should be the rule. Educational profiteers should not be assisted by the government.

#46 | Posted by danni at 2012-01-28 09:15 AM | Reply | Flag:

80 or 90 percent of the learning could be done online with labs etc.... Completed on site at hospitals, factories, internships etc...

The bottom line is you no longer get a return on your investment with most universities. Traditional universities have become self serving institutions of government graft.

#47 | Posted by Dirk at 2012-01-28 09:37 AM | Reply | Flag:

My daughter happens to be an LPN. The training to become one is very "hands on" and certainly could not be gained online. I don't believe everyone needs college but I also do not think that most of the online "colleges" provide training adequate or even acceptable to really find jobs or do the tasks that LPNs or other semi-professional people need to do. They take money which should ONLY go to legitimate schools who can prove that they actually place their students in jobs and that those students can actually do those jobs, and the price should not be so excessive as to burden graduates with debt out of proportion to the incomes they can reasonably expect. Most often, I believe only public institutions should qualify for Pell Grants or federally guaranteed student loans, I'm sure there are reasonable exceptions to that but for the most part that should be the rule. Educational profiteers should not be assisted by the government.

#46 | Posted by danni

(D)anni loves government cheese, too.

#48 | Posted by BloodSacrafice at 2012-01-28 09:41 AM | Reply | Flag:

Ask yourself, do you want the nurse who is taking your blood to have been educated online?

#5 | Posted by danni

Yes, if she spent half of her college life dumbshit electives and the other half pulling a train for the football team.

#49 | Posted by Sniper at 2012-01-28 11:05 AM | Reply | Flag:

Kids are getting to college less prepared and graduating college less educated. Liberal Arts are important but are beginning to dominate education. Worse, we are graduating way too many kids with unemployable majors and a complete lack of skills.

#29 | Posted by Sycophant

That is a fact!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!1

#50 | Posted by Sniper at 2012-01-28 11:07 AM | Reply | Flag:

"Yes, if she spent half of her college life dumbshit electives and the other half pulling a train for the football team."

Wow, hate professional women much???

#51 | Posted by danni at 2012-01-28 11:12 AM | Reply | Flag:

"(D)anni loves government cheese, too."

Pull your pants up, no one here wants to see your ass!

#52 | Posted by danni at 2012-01-28 11:13 AM | Reply | Flag:

"(D)anni loves government cheese, too."
Pull your pants up, no one here wants to see your ass!
#52 | Posted by danni

Hey, I'm eating lunch over here.

#53 | Posted by Hagbard_Celine at 2012-01-28 11:56 AM | Reply | Flag:

Ask yourself, do you want the nurse who is taking your blood to have been educated online?
#5 | Posted by danni

I actually have to agree with Danni on this one. One of my daughters in an RN and it does require face to face interaction with instructors.

#54 | Posted by glasshouse at 2012-01-28 12:22 PM | Reply | Flag:

#46 | Posted by danni at 2012-01-28 09:15 AM

Danni perhaps you missed what I was saying. The kids that go through the military training to be LPN's get 2600 hours of training. 1600 in class room time and 1000 clinical's.

For those of you who do not know what that means, it is the equivalent of 3 years college(all in your major) plus 25 weeks on the wards, ICU and surgery wings, under the watchfull gaze of RN's to make sure that they know their jobs. That is why only 50% pass.

When those same kids apply to a full nursing school, they are told that they would have to take the full course, that their military time does not count and they will teach them the right way.

That is nothing more than greed on the part of the school.

#55 | Posted by Anon451 at 2012-01-28 06:38 PM | Reply | Flag:

Didn't Thomas Jefferson say that higher education should be free? Education is the future of our country. How did we get to a point where education is subject to market bubbles?

#56 | Posted by squinch at 2012-01-28 07:11 PM | Reply | Flag:

Didn't Thomas Jefferson say that higher education should be free? Education is the future of our country. How did we get to a point where education is subject to market bubbles?

#56 | POSTED BY SQUINCH AT 2012-01-28 07:11 PM

He also owned slaves slaves.

BYW, what was his interpreted of "higher education"?

#57 | Posted by glasshouse at 2012-01-28 07:26 PM | Reply | Flag:

How did we get to a point where education is subject to market bubbles?
#56 | POSTED BY SQUINCH

When government started subsidizing it. Just like housing.

#58 | Posted by Ray at 2012-01-28 07:52 PM | Reply | Flag:

Didn't Thomas Jefferson say that higher education should be free? Education is the future of our country. How did we get to a point where education is subject to market bubbles?

I once worked with an Indian who graduated from one of the most prestigious technical universities in India: the Indian equivalent of MIT. His education was free! What I found even more interesting was that he was encouraged by his peers to come to the U.S. to work. He's been here so long that going back to India to live is a non starter. He and the rest of his family have become Americanized.

His decision to stay in the US is great for the US but a terrible loss for India. How is it that any country can consistenly lose such important resources?

However it brings to light the problems facing IT and other skilled workers in the U. S.; other countries are subsidizing their (labor) exports to the U. S. If imported labor were viewed the same as imported manufactured goods, the US might have a WTO case against countries like India. Of course, it would never be brought because the US benefits in the long run. However, there are other long term side effects because Americans are discouraged from entering the technical fields because 1) Americans have to pay for their education; 2) wages are depressed; What I've been told by Indians that I have worked with is that because of visa requirements, they are more interested in getting/keeping a job and staying in the country than they are about pay. I suspect pay becomes more of an issue once they get their Green Card and/or decide to have a family.

#59 | Posted by FedUpWithPols at 2012-01-29 06:52 AM | Reply | Flag:

As Gates, the dropout demonstrated, education is not a ticket to great wealth.

Education inflation outpaces general inflation.

It requires support from actual wealth creators in farming, manufacturing and mining to sustain the institutions and demand for graduates.

It does increase the probability of gaining interesting employment.

The only growing job markets in the USA today are in the service sector. Many are filled by East Europeans.

#60 | Posted by nutcase at 2012-01-29 10:10 AM | Reply | Flag:

Great. The dumbing down of America is in total full effect. More rewards for the less educated.

Next on the agenda, those pesky child labor laws. Why spend any time educating your children at all when your eight year old could be working and affording his keep. No more freeloading kids. Fucking brats, feeling entitled to loafing and going to school. School never taught me nothing no how.

Yeehaw and all that.

#61 | Posted by ClownShack at 2012-01-29 02:13 PM | Reply | Flag:

As Gates, the dropout demonstrated, education is not a ticket to great wealth.

This has got to be one of the most retarded arguments on this thread.

Sure, there are some successful dropouts one can point to if they'd like.

But they're exceptions to the norm. By and large, college education increases one's money making potential throughout their lives. Is it as spectacular as Gates? No, but not much is.

#62 | Posted by jpw at 2012-01-29 04:24 PM | Reply | Flag:

Carnegie, Melon, Morgan, Rockefeller, Rothschild, Allen, Jobs, Kamprad, Soros, Wozniak, Zuckerberg....and on and on are hardly exceptions, they are the rule.

That said there are millions of jobs compared each large entrepreneurial opportunity. For this reason going to college makes sense. A better reason is that you will have a more interesting job. Without a good education life can be awfully boring.

#63 | Posted by nutcase at 2012-01-29 05:47 PM | Reply | Flag:

and on and on are hardly exceptions, they are the rule.

LOL

No. What percentage of college or highschool dropouts do you think they represent? They are the exception.

The best sign of them being the exception is they range from the late 1800's to modern times. Sure, there are more, I know. But there were A LOT more dropouts in that time frame than those who were successful.

#64 | Posted by jpw at 2012-01-29 06:09 PM | Reply | Flag:

You're saying all dropouts are not successful. I don't disagree. All I said is the superrich are predominantly not well educated. This is not true for ordinary middle class wealth where education is critical. The reason this is true is that in the Capitalistic System time trumps cleverness. Getting started early in life is more important than what you do. Most wealth is inherited for the same reason.

#65 | Posted by nutcase at 2012-01-29 06:45 PM | Reply | Flag:

OK I understand you better now.

#66 | Posted by jpw at 2012-01-29 11:56 PM | Reply | Flag:

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