Drudge Retort: Red Meat for Yellow Dogs

Catherine Rampell: Last night, President Obama talked about the need to put people back to work, calling job growth the "No. 1 focus in 2010." But one major obstacle to that goal -- and one that has so far gone mostly unacknowledged -- is that many of the jobs slashed during this recession are not coming back.

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Sobering article.

#1 | Posted by rightisright


Meh....who wants to be sober on a saturday night?

Lower taxes, that'll fix it!

how do you run a nation on no taxes Whatsleft?
states already drowning in debt...
country already drowning in debt...

make the rich pay their fair share...(which they
haven't for about 15-20 years)...

less burden on the Middle Class,
more on the wealthiest few...

But every time people bring this up,
the rich cry foul, and get their Republican
mouthpieces to say that someone is spreading
Socialism or Communism...

Bill Maher had it right, many Americans are
just flat out stupid, and believe whatever
they are told....listen to whomever is beating
the drum the loudest and the hardest...

If we just lowered taxes enough we could all drive Hummers on the deteriorating road system and driving over bridges that may or may not collapse would add a lot of excitement to our lives.

Ultimatly it is basicly Moore's law. When you have productivity increases every year ultimatly you get to a point where you simply do not need full employment. We have been passing that point for years.

The problem is that puts a downward pressure on wages as there are more people for each position avalible which means even more people need to work to support themselves (think the number of dual income families today vs. 1950).

Ok so the problem is pretty easy to see, it's the solution that is a bit harder.

#4 | Posted by earthmuse

My statement was facetious.

"When you have productivity increases every year ultimatly you get to a point where you simply do not need full employment."

But I doubt you really did or else the influx of illegal aliens and the US Chamber of Commerce wouldn't be working for more HS1B visas, it isn't productivity it is the desire to cut wages. American workers are under assault and "free trade" is our enemy. Either realize that or get ready to lose you care, house, life. Numbers don't lie and only morons will deny the obvious threat that is approaching all of us.

#4 POSTED BY EARTHMUSE...In 2003, the IRS published a study on the source of individual income tax for the year 2001.

The study found:

Top 5% of income earners paid 53.25% of taxes

Top 10% of income earners paid 64.89% of taxes

Top 50% of income earners paid 96.03% of taxes

Bottom 50% of income earners paid 3.97% of
taxes.

Where do you get the idea that the rich don't pay their fair share of income tax.

By the way, I'm not rich. My AGI for 2009 was $48,115.

#10 | Posted by gluon

Wealth in the U.S. is distributed in very similar percentages. And those same wealthy didn't seem to suffer for the top marginal tax rates being much higher through the middle of the last century. But since the beginning of supply side tax cuts this country has been sliding. Yours is a popular complaint of some who can't be satisfied with simply having a lot.

www.drudge.com

We have to force companies to hire American workers. Pass a law that says if you are an American company a percentage of employees must be American.

Something that was briefly touched on in the article was the fact that technology will eventually replace some jobs altogether. What most people don't realize is that the vast majority of jobs in the US today are in the service sector. Not too long ago, they used to be in the industrial sector, but companies found it more efficient and less costly to use machines instead of people.

We could, in fact, replace almost all if not all of the jobs in the service sector with technology. Of course, this would ruin our economy, but it seems counter-intuitive since these machines are so efficient. When technology can work for us and thus free us from labor, but we don't implement these technologies because of our economy, one must begin to question our social structure itself.

The answer is obvious. Our social structures are outdated and not up to current technological standards. Monetary economies (those that use money as a means of exchange) are obsolete these days. Money used to be a good tool, yes, but now it is hindering us more than it helps. Money in our current societies creates an artificial scarcity of resources, which, in turn, forces us to fight with one another in order to survive.

Technology is the answer. If we were to base our social structures on available resources and achieve peak technological efficiency in every sector, the improvements would be unlike anything yet seen in this world. Until then, available jobs will continue to be replaced by technology and governments will keep trying to create 'filler' jobs that serve no purpose other than to keep the economy rolling. As a result, people end up wasting their lives because they have to spend so much of their valuable time on a job that is ultimately meaningless just so they can afford to live.

The fact of the matter is, monetary economies are like terminally ill patients that our doctors (government) are constantly trying to keep alive via different means. It's going to die eventually -- they're just delaying the inevitable.

I highly recommend The Venus Project as an alternative to our current social structure. There's also an interesting group called The Zeitgeist Movement which advocates for social change and has released a couple mind-blowing videos, which are available for free on the internet.

the lumpen proletariat may finally get some clout with this growth--politicians like Palin and Bachman might actually gain a national constituency at long last...

JACKASS

There are a lot of hyphenated Americans.

So who should your law exclude? "Color-of-skin-Americans?" Or perhaps "country-of-origin-Americans?" Or "second-generation-Americans?"

Clear that up for us, will you?

If I was a dark skinned, swarthy, second generation Muslim-American, would I have a hard time getting a job because of your quotas?

Quick, let us raise the minimum wage; posters here will tell you that will make life better for so many.

Quick, let us raise the minimum wage; posters here will tell you that will make life better for so many.

whatsoever you do for the least of my brothers, that you do unto me.--J. Christ

Higher taxes. That'll fix it!

the lumpen proletariat may finally get some clout with this growth--politicians like Palin and Bachman might actually gain a national constituency at long last...
#14 | Posted by badgerwest at 2010-01-31 01:55 AM

I want to slap that sentence out from your filthy mouth!:]

Of course it's somewhat true - watching the teabaggers protest it's obvious that jingoist Christianity has much to do with the dumbing-down of politics and the high racial spike in partisan divide. I can't believe people still claim Barak Hussein Obama is Muslim, let alone codified in the Bible like it's a prophetic sound-bite encyclopedia.

These are the same people who are in favor of outsourcing jobs because they didn't realize at the time that the bubble economics was perpetrated by the very industry that was moving offshore. The same people who believe that Reagan and both Bushs' legacy are of patriotism and self-sacrifice. The same people who are politically wedged to keep medical advancements privatized with red-flag arguments like abortion and embryonic stem-cells. The same people who allow their children to die for foreign and domestic oil interests rather than nationalizing those assets and keeping their children out of these resource wars. The same people who are pre-diabetic yet believe Coke and Pepsi should be sold inside of schools. The same people who won't allow me to marry a man because of their purported religious "convictions" which also enthusiastically condones slavery, selling children and murder. The proletariat that by any other name would be called "compassionate" conservatives, neo-cons and Republicans.

If You Believe...Just Keep Wavin' That Ol'Flag and Everything Will Be All Right...Right!

"Bill Maher had it right, many Americans are
just flat out stupid, and believe whatever
they are told" ....So Tell Them Everything is Just Wonderful...
Because They Don't Really Need Houses or Jobs or Food
...and then "Presto"....Everything Will Be A-l-l Right!!!

WOW, Redlightrobot . . . That was good!

It's our extreme bad luck that the UK has a special relationship with the United States.

We have to suffer your idiocies as well.

#8 | Posted by Barington at 2010-01-30 11:15 PM | Reply | Flag:

Well, I guess you could be goosestepping right now.

Although you probably wouldn't be on this board as you'd most likely be speaking German if not for the US.

Just sayin'

"We have to force companies to hire American workers. Pass a law that says if you are an American company a percentage of employees must be American.

#12 | Posted by jackass"

Then the US loses the benefits of empire.

Also how does the rules apply, to suppliers as well?

This is a very ridiculous desire that would actually cause the US decline further.

Getting China to re-value their currency against the dollar is one of the mechanism for getting low paying jobs to return to the US.

The other thing is people have to move up the value chain.

We also will not be seeing much job growth as today CFOs rule the world. The expense tightening has been brutal.

We have to force companies to hire American workers. Pass a law that says if you are an American company a percentage of employees must be American.
#12 | POSTED BY JACKASS

Yeah. Great. The Soviet Union had no unemployment. Socialists, as Jackass surely is, should be sent to slave labor camps in Northern Alaska.

"Yeah. Great. The Soviet Union had no unemployment. Socialists, as Jackass surely is, should be sent to slave labor camps in Northern Alaska.

#26 | Posted by Ray"

You are referring to communism not socialism goldbug. Get your delusions sort out.

Yeah. Great. The Soviet Union had no unemployment. Socialists, as Jackass surely is, should be sent to slave labor camps in Northern Alaska.

#26 | Posted by Ray

A growing underclass is a requirement for any socialist or communist coup to be effective, that and a collapsing economy and your well on your way to a Peoples State.

Socialism and Communism are the two progressive and destructive phases in the journey from Capitalism to Capitalism.

#26 | Posted by Ray

Seeing socialists in every shadow, tool? You take the Fox mantra, hook, line and sinker--and just regurgitate it. How boring you are...

As I've been warning for years, our government is destroying the job market. The market is too over-regulated, too over-taxed and the legal environment too risky for any rational entrepreneur to start or expand a business.

The consequences of socialism are perfectly predictable. Government has created a climate of fear and uncertainty, and a burden of debt that makes a recovery impossible. Under these conditions, the job market will continue to shrink as businesses are driven into contraction and bankruptcy.

Seeing socialists in every shadow, tool? You take the Fox mantra, hook, line and sinker--and just regurgitate it. How boring you are...
#30 | POSTED BY NEWYAWKER

With no information, this jerk assumes I'm a Fox fan.

Hey jerk! The whole political system is a disaster. The right is as fucked up as the left.

Here's the formula.
Right + Left = war + welfare. They take your liberty. They take your property. They treat you like they own you. That's the prescription for poverty.

How about we impose tariffs on companies that make it punitive for companies to outsource their labor and reimport their goods for sale. Make it a better deal for them to just build their goods right here in America.

I know it may be a little harder on the consumer but their are ways to reduce prices on goods. Create a 40 to 1 rule. CEO's can make no more than 40X the average worker. This would eliminate some of where the need for profit goes. Also universal single payer would eliminate the need for corporations to pay for Insurance.

Socialism is the Answer people are just too blind to see it.

Socialism is the Answer people are just too blind to see it.

Well socialism is working its magic here and now. LOL!

Socialism is the Answer people are just too blind to see it.

#33 | Posted by jackass

Only if the question is how do you take down the greatest country in the world.

Well socialism is working its magic here and now. LOL!

#34 | Posted by Ray at 2010-01-31 08:07 AM

Where do you see socialism? I don't have a govt job nor do I have govt insurance. I don't see wealth being redistributed with a 51% or higher tax rate on the rich. No I see way too much capitalism.

Stir we may have been the greatest long ago but the right has largely ruined America. Now we don't have the best standard of living and we aren't even close to it. Scandinavian countries have it right with high taxes on everyone. This enables them to be able to provide their citizens a multitude of entitlements. We need to start operating like them.

So Danni in resopnse to #9 are you saying we need to deport all the illegals and save those jobs for american workers?

The estimates are that there are 12 million illegals in the U.S. That would really help with unemployment

Where do you see socialism? I don't have a govt job nor do I have govt insurance. I don't see wealth being redistributed with a 51% or higher tax rate on the rich. No I see way too much capitalism.

Because you don't have a clue to the differences. More accurately, this country suffers from a mix of socialism and fascism embodied by welfare and corporatism. You're only playing into the hands of the oligarchs who run this country.

It's a familiar story throughout history. The oligarchs will not give up their reigns of power before the have stripped this nation of all the wealth built up over the life of this country. THEN they will default. Your dreams of a Scandinavian socialist utopia will not come to fruition. They're going down too.

We need to start operating like them.

It was North Sea oil that supplied their revenue. That's coming to an end too.

"How about we impose tariffs on companies that make it punitive for companies to outsource their labor and reimport their goods for sale. Make it a better deal for them to just build their goods right here in America.

I know it may be a little harder on the consumer but their are ways to reduce prices on goods. Create a 40 to 1 rule. CEO's can make no more than 40X the average worker. This would eliminate some of where the need for profit goes. Also universal single payer would eliminate the need for corporations to pay for Insurance.

Socialism is the Answer people are just too blind to see it.

#33 | Posted by jackass "

De-globalization? Bah, hah, hah. where do you think the resources, rare earth metals, etc, etc, etc will come from? How would you like paying triple for all your consumer goods? It will make it real hard to pay your bail bondsman in advance in the future.

"Because you don't have a clue to the differences. More accurately, this country suffers from a mix of socialism and fascism embodied by welfare and corporatism. You're only playing into the hands of the oligarchs who run this country.

It's a familiar story throughout history. The oligarchs will not give up their reigns of power before the have stripped this nation of all the wealth built up over the life of this country. THEN they will default. Your dreams of a Scandinavian socialist utopia will not come to fruition. They're going down too.

#39 | Posted by Ray "

And the GoldBug wants to turn it into Feudalism where he with a bit of gold will be able to own all the best pussy in the land. Let's roll back banking by 250 years!!! Yeah, boyye!!!

Ray you really fantasize and jerk off to this, don't you?

Ray you really fantasize and jerk off to this, don't you?
#42 | POSTED BY FURIO

It beats the blown up dolls you are used to.

Paper money always goes to its market value: zero. There is not one exception in written history. The dollar has already lost 98% of its value against gold. The last 2% is going to be a bitch.

Without an honest monetary standard, feudalism is exactly where this country is going. How do I know? Because that's what the Romans did when they taxed the landowners out of their property. History repeats. Again.

"Paper money always goes to its market value: zero. There is not one exception in written history. The dollar has already lost 98% of its value against gold. The last 2% is going to be a bitch."

Oh this is cute. Ray is confusing inflation with devaluation. Care to guess how much it cost to purchase an once of gold in 1800 versus the average wage of an American then?

Why not just carry around a bunch of copper, GoldBug? It is far more useful than gold.

Please learn a tiny, little bit about economics GoldBug.

"Without an honest monetary standard, feudalism is exactly where this country is going. How do I know? Because that's what the Romans did when they taxed the landowners out of their property. History repeats. Again."

GoldBug so you are saying the US will last for another 300 years? That's awesome.

Ray actively dreams of being a King in a society of paupers. Sadly Ray fails to realize his gold will be taken from him and he too will be a pauper.

We can take solace in the fact that Ray is almost 70 and dementia should be setting in very shortly. I have images of Ray being treated poorly in a nursing home wondering which one of the orderlies stole his gold.

"Paper money always goes to its market value: zero. There is not one exception in written history. The dollar has already lost 98% of its value against gold. The last 2% is going to be a bitch."
Oh this is cute. Ray is confusing inflation with devaluation. Care to guess how much it cost to purchase an once of gold in 1800 versus the average wage of an American then?
Why not just carry around a bunch of copper, GoldBug? It is far more useful than gold.
Please learn a tiny, little bit about economics GoldBug.
#44 | POSTED BY FURIO

He doesn't understand. We will never go back to a specie standard. There is not enough valuable specie to allow free trade and commerce. Valuable specie competes in two different markets: The commodity market for industrial applications and use for commerce.

His belief that specie will be the currency du jour is insane and if the government wanted his metal they would take it.

Please learn a tiny, little bit about economics GoldBug.
#44 | POSTED BY FURIO

The first lesson I learned is that Keynesianism doesn't work. It is impossible to spend your way out of a problem caused by too much spending. There is no realistic chance of containing the accumulated debts. It is only a matter of time before the Federales devalue the dollar or default.

You should take your own advice.

Oh this is cute. Ray is confusing inflation with devaluation. Care to guess how much it cost to purchase an once of gold in 1800 versus the average wage of an American then?

There is no confusion. By definition, monetary inflation causes price inflation. Cause and effect. Inflationary cycles are self limiting, limited to when a currency has no value. Weimer Republic, here we come.

He doesn't understand. We will never go back to a specie standard. There is not enough valuable specie to allow free trade and commerce. Valuable specie competes in two different markets: The commodity market for industrial applications and use for commerce.
His belief that specie will be the currency du jour is insane and if the government wanted his metal they would take it.
#48 | POSTED BY LEGIO

That's the way inflationists are trained to think. It's not a matter of the quantity of gold (and possibly silver), it's a matter of what price satisfies market participants. By one envelope calculation I've seen, $20,000 an ounce is about right.

I have no idea if governments will ever return to commodity money. So far, gold and silver have out performed every dollar asset since 2001. By the way fundamentals look to me, it has a long way to go. There need be no other reason.


And until the Congress realises that we need to be friendly to corporations (that make jobs and employ people) instead of trying to fund the government on their backs or forcing them to buy into this boondoggle health care plan (and making them pay for it based upon the number of employees they have), they will continue to leave and not come back. Why risk the economic downside? There was another thread here yesterday where the dems pondered "why people vote against their own best interests" and they fail to ponder "whether corporations will ACT against their own best interests".

First, change the tax system - go to the Fair Tax. Second kick Homie the Clown out of the White House. Third, get rid of anyone that supports him in the next election.

Fair Tax will never happen. That is a nonstarter.

Take a good look at this chart. It shows an explosion in federal spending in the face of falling revenues. You're delusion if you think the federales can spend their way out of this.

jsmineset.com

The debt clock ticks away.
www.usdebtclock.org

Ray if we cut spending as you suggest their would be chaos. People would be out in the streets dying.

Jackass
This country dug itself into a hole so deep, there is no way out. People are dying now because of it.

I better take all I can before the collapse I guess. If I can take it by dishonest means then I probably should. I look forward to the have nots like myself taking from the haves.

That sounds like GREED to me.


Ray if we cut spending as you suggest their would be chaos. People would be out in the streets dying.

#55 | Posted by jackass

You mean people would be out on the streets rioting, burning down their own projects and slums and killing each other.

No largely the elderly would be homeless with no medical care. Some may be taken in by family but many elderly have no one to take care of them. If not for SS they would have nothing.

That sounds like GREED to me.

#58 | Posted by Ray at 2010-01-31 10:32 AM


Sounds like I am taking back what republicans have taken from me.

gluon,

because the top 10% control 90% of the wealth, more importantly the means of production. Their political contributions, have become Government lawmaking as NAFTA and other offshoring, H1-B visas, repeal of Glass-Steagal, tying Brookley Born's hands, an absolute refusal to enforce existing immigration law.... and so much more. We don't need to round up and send anyone home. All visitors should be welcome. The genie is out of the bottle. We cannot save every segment of our economy. But we must bring the law as a hammer down on employers, and reinstitute some trade barriers which protect salvagable emerging or vital for defense industries. Otherwise widespread poverty will ensue, which is exactly what the ruling class seeks, Demowussie and Rethuglican alike. We need a Government of, by and for the people, because industry can never fulfill that role. Until people overcome their media induced ignorance it can't happen.

These threads are always so amusing.

Ya got Ray trying to sound intelligent.

Ya got Danni demanding that we revert to 1959. The Wonder Years.

And ya got Jackass, who thinks you can pass laws that negate gravity.

Not to mention assorted boobs who want to believe that America is in permanent decline.

One of the amazing things about America is that it is a culture that renews itself. Every other culture in the world is on a one-way trajectory that ends in collapse, or stasis.

America is different. About every 60 years or so (three generations), America goes through a renewal. Things seem so bleak right now because it is time for another renewal.

(you can see some of these renewals if you research 'Great Awakenings')

10 years from now Americans will marvel at the petty and vulgar materialism most Americans have played with for the last decade. The other side of this will be a much kinder and more gentle culture.

I'm glad to know that this will be the America my new son will inherit
--------------
BTW: with the death of ObamaCare my nurse placement business has suddenly gone into overdrive.

Obama created so much uncertainty that nobody wanted to hire nurses. Now that this foolishness is over, nurses are back in demand.

Filipino nurses are very popular in Dubai, so I'll probably have a recruiting trip there soon. Especially ICU nurses.

Obama's failures make me rich


Nice talking point. What exactly have the Republicans TAKEN from you?

Nice talking point. What exactly have the Republicans TAKEN from you?

#64 | Posted by A_Citizen at 2010-01-31 10:48 AM

Universal single payer insurance. Socialism.

#62 | Posted by nutcase

Have you ever thought of coming up with an idea or a business plan and joining the top 10%. This is what I don't get from you guys. You could redistribute all the money in the country and in a year the poor would be poor again.

#65 | Posted by jackass

This has got to be a fucking act!LOL

I'm calling BS on your whole persona. I think you and TIMBIC are the same guy.

Stir that is why taxes need to be high all the time so wealth is continually flowing down. The rich will still be rich, just not as rich.

I'm calling BS on your whole persona. I think you and TIMBIC are the same guy.

#67 | Posted by STIRSUMUP


Tim lives in NJ, I live in TX.

Tim lives in NJ, I live in TX.

#69 | Posted by jackass

Oh, well that clears everything up....

Ya got Ray trying to sound intelligent.
#63 | POSTED BY VERNON

Haven't you embarrassed yourself enough, Vern?

Not to mention assorted boobs who want to believe that America is in permanent decline.

I never said that. No one can see that far ahead. Right now, this country has intractable debt problems and a culture of over-dependency on government largess. The two cannot be reconciled.

One of the amazing things about America is that it is a culture that renews itself. Every other culture in the world is on a one-way trajectory that ends in collapse, or stasis.
America is different. About every 60 years or so (three generations), America goes through a renewal. Things seem so bleak right now because it is time for another renewal.

Here's Vern trying to sound intelligent. Reminds me of Murphy who thinks America is an exception blessed by God. It's a familiar theme in the Bible.

Universal single payer insurance. Socialism.

#65 | Posted by jackass at


How does someone TAKE something that you never had to begin with? The logical leaps that you are making are so huge as to boggle the mind. By your logic, I could be pissed at the dems because they took my palatial estate on the Gulf from me. (I never had one - but I sort might could have if I could keep all of MY money and stop paying someone else's way all the time.)

But, since I am a democrat, I will help you recover those things. give me everything you have and I will send you (one way) to a country that has those things. I will even ride next to you so I can bring your passport back with me.

I can only take so much of the stupid insanity on this site in a day. After Vern, I have to get out of here before I become infected.


#73 | Posted by A_Citizen at 2010-01-31 11:33 AM | Reply |

Obama and Hillary were desperately trying to get us to single payer and the corrupt right obstructed it from happening. So I never had it but we were well on our way had it not been for the right. Socialism may still happen. I pray for the downfall of America so we do get to experience socialism.

stirsem,

Actually I have, but not with much success, although it was a lot of fun during a period of my life when I had fewer responsibilities. I'm not rich, or poor, though I have never really recovered from the financial savagery of my divorce. 13 years of hell left me with a jaded view of what passes for justice.

What you don't get is I'm not anti-business, just anti-corruption and anti-stupidity.

I have to get out of here before I become infected.

#74 | Posted by Ray at 2010-01-31 11:35 AM | Reply | Flag:

He said. Until he posted again


If you never had it, then it wasn't taken from you. As to socialism, seeing that you pray for the downfall of America, it does not surprise me that you are an ardent liberal - since it appears you share so many of their goals. Let us hope that the right foils your plans there also.

What you don't get is I'm not anti-business, just anti-corruption and anti-stupidity.

#76 | Posted by nutcase

LOL, I can live with that. A divorce can turn anyone into a nutcase.

American workers are under assault and "free trade" is our enemy.

Amen to that.


American workers are under assault and "free trade" is our enemy.


Amen to that.


#81 | Posted by JimmyWallback

Obama doesn't seem to think that---in his SOTUS, he seemed to say he wanted to enhance it.

not to worry million of high paying green jobs are on the horizon plus the government sector is always growing.

Obama and Hillary were desperately trying to get us to single payer and the corrupt right obstructed it from happening

JA, what party has controlled the House and Senate since 2007? The right has not been able to stop the left from passing HC reform. It's the cowardice and ineptitude of the democrat party that has.

Nice strawman argument though.

Nope. It's "I'm really a Republican and we already HAVE a public option in Connecticut" Joe Lieberman

(It's called "Charter Oaks" - 3 plans to choose from.)


I better take all I can before the collapse I guess. If I can take it by dishonest means then I probably should. I look forward to the have nots like myself taking from the haves.

#57 | Posted by jackass at 2010-01-31 10:29 AM


This isn't the first time this pos has posted something like this.

I envision you shot dead on your first attempt unless you're going to rob little old widowers, and even then maybe we'll get lucky.

You're a huge pile of shit.

Scum

I envision you shot dead on your first attempt unless you're going to rob little old widowers, and even then maybe we'll get lucky.

If he suddenly stops posting here, we'll know he tried it in Texas. LOL

FF for Goatman...

how do you run a nation on no taxes Whatsleft?

#4 | Posted by earthmuse

How do you run a country with taxation but is so hopelessly corrupt that...

...additional taxation only leads to even greater corruption?

The problem in the U.S. is not too little taxation. The problem is systemic corruption by our "elected" class.

Want more money to run government? Then go after hose who are the most corrupt and get it from them and their friends.

Just don't be too aghast when you learn which political party they are all from.

That's the way inflationists are trained to think. It's not a matter of the quantity of gold (and possibly silver), it's a matter of what price satisfies market participants. By one envelope calculation I've seen, $20,000 an ounce is about right.
I have no idea if governments will ever return to commodity money. So far, gold and silver have out performed every dollar asset since 2001. By the way fundamentals look to me, it has a long way to go. There need be no other reason.

#51 | POSTED BY RAY

Inflationist? No, try Economist Ray. Again your delusion regarding specie and price make no sense. An item with industrial applications skews the value of the specie until an alternative substitute is available.

your dream of 20K gold is just that .. a dream. Also 20K of WHAT? You are pegging the value to a fiat currency that apparently has more relevance than specie.

I better take all I can before the collapse I guess. If I can take it by dishonest means then I probably should. I look forward to the have nots like myself taking from the haves.

#57 | POSTED BY JACKASS

.. and Ray's belief he will be able to keep what he owns if a societal collapse occurs are hilarious. The have not's will kill him and take what they want..

Ray is delusional. He's like Dorthy in the Wizard of Oz, just click your heels three times and she can get back to Kansas. The one thing that always bothered me about that movie was, why would anyone want to go back the Kansas in the first place?

Ray's idea of 'Kansas' is a collapsed economy where only gold has monetary value and only he has gold. The problem is that unless that gold is in physical metal and spread around commerce like it was 200 years ago, a slab of bacon and a sack of flour will be worth more then a chunk of metal if the economy collapses like he is predicting. It's like the story of the pirate who stole away with the ships treasure and found himself on a deserted island. He had to make lures out of his jewels and coins just to catch a fish.

There seems nothing to be done about banks impoverishing people by extortionate credit card rates, junk securities and a debt burden so heavy that it will require one bailout after another over the next few years. Present policy is based on the assumption that the U.S. economy will crash if we don't keep the debt overhead growing at past exponential rates. It is credit that is, debt that is supposed to pull real estate out of its present negative equity. Credit that is, debt leveraging that is supposed to raise stock market prices to enable pension funds to meet their scheduled payments. And it is credit that is, debt is supposed to be the key to employment growth.

Credit means giving Wall Street what it wants. Regulating it is supposed to interfere with prosperity. Truth-in-lending, for example, will increase the "cost of production" by "making" banks charge consumers even more for creating credit on their computer keyboards.

This Stockholm syndrome when it comes to Wall Street's power-grab is junk economics. Wall Street is not "the economy." It is a superstructure of credit and money management privileges positioned to extract as much as it can, while threatening to close down the economy if it does not get its way.

High finance holds the economy hostage not only economically but also intellectually.

So if we are to look at what the administration actually is doing, its program is simply a blank check to the Fed and Treasury (under Bush-era management) to revive Wall Street fortunes in a nutshell, more Rubinomics.

What is needed is to explain to voters how financial and tax policies are symbiotic. The tax shift off finance, insurance and real estate (FIRE) onto labor and industry since 1980 has polarized the economy between a creditor class at the top of and an indebted "real" economy below. Unless this tax favoritism is reversed, more and more revenue will be diverted away from spending on consumption and investment to pay debt service and "financialize" the economy even more.

Libertarians have warned that our economy is going down the Road to Serfdom. What they do not realize is that by fighting against government power to check financial hubris, they are paving the road for centralized financial planning by Wall Street. They have been tricked into leading the parade on behalf of the financial, insurance and real estate sector down the road to debt peonage in a monopolized and polarized economy.

Excerpted from Michael Hudson

"And those same wealthy didn't seem to suffer for the top marginal tax rates being much higher through the middle of the last century. But since the beginning of supply side tax cuts this country has been sliding. Yours is a popular complaint of some who can't be satisfied with simply having a lot."

Actually, that's not true. One of the perhaps unintended side effects of the 1982 tax cuts was that it shifted the federal income tax burden further to the right. In 1980, the percentage of the burden covered by the top 10% was 48%. By 1988 it was 57%. In 1981 the top 1% covered 17.6% of the total burden. By 1988 it was 27.5%.

The reasons for this shift would be obvious to most any first year econ student. The decrease in taxation led to an increase in wealth creating activities, which were taxed accordingly.

So why would the left be so much against such a move? Several reasons. First, it is contrary to virtually all leftist (read:Marxist and post-Marxist) dogma. It would be like an evangelical admitting that the earth was more than 4000 years old. Even if it is true, you certainly can't admit to it without destroying the foundation of your philosophies. Second, it puts power in the hands of the people, who may behave in a way that the leftists deem unacceptable; in a way that should be discouraged or controlled.

"We have to force companies to hire American workers. Pass a law that says if you are an American company a percentage of employees must be American."

There are several problems with this. First, American companies are legally obligated to show preference to American workers. The problem in many cases is that the highly skilled workers that modern companies need are in short supply. Go to the engineering college at your local university and you will find a student body comprised mostly of Asians. So it's Asians that are being hired, via H1Bs. You can't offer and american the job if he lacks the requisite skills.

Several years ago,Jesse Jackson criticized several of the big silicon valley tech firms for not hiring more black engineers. Their response was that they would hire black engineers, or any other color for that matter, if they were available. They weren't.

The workers must first possess the requisite skills before they can be hired to do the job, particularly when that job involves a skillset like engineering.

"How about we impose tariffs on companies that make it punitive for companies to outsource their labor and reimport their goods for sale. Make it a better deal for them to just build their goods right here in America."

Imposing tariffs would most likely encourage our foreign trading partners to respond in kind. The Smoot-Hawley Act, passed during the great depression, was intended to do exactly what you say, what it did instead was decrease exports by 61% and drive unemployment from 7.8% in 1930 to 25.1% in 1933. You'd have to explain to me how more unemployment would be good for americans.

Realistically, it would probably be far worse to so something like that now, given the advanced state of the global economy and the fact that better than half the people on the planet now qualify as middle class or higher. That's a pool of about 3 billion potential customers worldwide, vs. 300 million in the US. In short, you would reduce your potential customer base by somewhere around 90%.

"The reasons for this shift would be obvious to most any first year econ student. The decrease in taxation led to an increase in wealth creating activities, which were taxed accordingly."

Yeah...for the wealthy.

That first-year econ student should also be able to tell you if the top rates declined, and the wealthy's portion increased, that's because they started controlling much, MUCH more of the wealth.

"the fact that better than half the people on the planet now qualify as middle class or higher"

Link?

and the fact that better than half the people on the planet now qualify as middle class or higher

Um. WHAT?

#89 | Posted by Legio
#90 | Posted by Legio
#91 | Posted by RingMaster

Yeah. Sure. Obama is going to save the dollar. LOL!

No nation ever printed its way to prosperity, ever borrowed its way to prosperity or ever spent its way to prosperity. NEVER!!!

These two losers would approve if I said I bought real estate, stocks or bonds. But for some strange reason, they are offended by my owning gold when it's not any of their fucking business. I'll bet they would have said the same thing to me when gold was at $275.

Actually, that's not true. One of the perhaps unintended side effects of the 1982 tax cuts was that it shifted the federal income tax burden further to the right. In 1980, the percentage of the burden covered by the top 10% was 48%. By 1988 it was 57%. In 1981 the top 1% covered 17.6% of the total burden. By 1988 it was 27.5%.

The reasons for this shift would be obvious to most any first year econ student.

Yes, it should be obvious. The income gap had become so extreme as to be scandalous.

No nation ever printed its way to prosperity, ever borrowed its way to prosperity or ever spent its way to prosperity. NEVER!!!

The US was worse off after WWII. Harry Truman, an 88 year old democrat, pulled the country up by the bootstraps after the worst budget deficit in history in just a couple of years.

Anything is possible, but there will always be a Chicken Little like Ray. Clinton was another Democrat who faced a wrecked economy. He pulled us out of it too. Name one Republican this last century that left office better then when he took the oath.

Harry Truman, an 88 year old democrat...

???

HST was 61 when he took office. He was 88 when he died in 1972, 12 years after he left office

Clinton was another Democrat who faced a wrecked economy. He pulled us out of it too

The prosperity of the Clinton years would have happened under any president of any party. The dot com, IT, and internet bubble was ripening very, very quickly largely because of Judge Greene and his deregulation of AT&T which allowed companies like Sprint (then US Sprint) to lay coast to coast fiber cable and make bandwidth dirt cheap. THe rest was history from there. Clinton had nothing to do with it.

"Clinton had nothing to do with it."

I mostly agreed with you up until that point.

As Dubya proved, you can be given much, and still turn it into shit. Clinton had a lot to do with what happened. If nothing else, he concentrated on the economy like few Presidents, and agreed to pare the deficit to nearly zero.

"Name one Republican this last century that left office better then when he took the oath."

Teddy Roosevelt.

"The income gap had become so extreme as to be scandalous." - Betelg

Your hyperbole aside, income gap hasn't much if at all, except for WashingtonDC.
www.census.gov


"That first-year econ student should also be able to tell you if the top rates declined, and the wealthy's portion increased, that's because they started controlling much, MUCH more of the wealth.
#94 | Posted by Danforth

The top earners are not the same people year to year.

Link please that counters the GINI coefficient of the US?

* 1929: 45.0 (estimated)
* 1947: 37.6 (estimated)
* 1967: 39.7 (first year reported)
* 1968: 38.6 (lowest index reported)
* 1970: 39.4
* 1980: 40.3
* 1990: 42.8
* 2000: 46.2 [8]
* 2005: 46.9
* 2006: 47.0 (highest index reported)
* 2007: 46.3
* 2008: 46.6

"Link please that counters the GINI coefficient of the US?"

How about the caveat from your own link?

"Gini coefficients do include investment income"

Oops.

"Yeah...for the wealthy.

That first-year econ student should also be able to tell you if the top rates declined, and the wealthy's portion increased, that's because they started controlling much, MUCH more of the wealth."

The shift in the tax burden was unintentional. It only happened because aggregate wealth in the United States increased. And it wasn't the old money who were getting richer, as this time period was also marked by the emergence of the Nouveau riche; those entrepreneurs that grew wealthy by creating new goods and services for consumers. So, you had a relatively new class of wealthy taxpayers that had not been present previously, and given that this wealth was concentrated amongst the hyper-productive income earners in the top their, in was in that direction that the burden shifted.

It wasn't, as you suggest, a transfer of wealth from the rich to the poor. It was the creation of new wealth that allowed this phenomenon to take place.

"Link?"

It was in the February 27th, 2009 issue of "The Economist." Here is the link if you have a premium content subscription:

"www.economist.com"

The Article itself was called Burgeoning Bourgeois:
New Middle Classes in Emerging Markets. Parts of it are referenced at several different blog sites. Here's one with a graph copied from the economist showing the global middle class as a percentage of total population:

"paul.kedrosky.com"

"Yes, it should be obvious. The income gap had become so extreme as to be scandalous."

Here's the deal, in a free society those that produce the wealth will naturally benefit from it. If I invent a new process or widget that society deems to be valuable, they will give me money in return for providing that good or service. The only reason there is any income gap at all is that people, acting as rational consumers, value some units of land, labor, or capital more than others. It is a natural function of a free society. Society could correct this phenomenon, on it's own. If it cared to. the problem is that for many it would result in a substantial decrease in standard of living. After all, increased labor costs would be passed on to consumers, who would see the purchasing power of each dollar decline.

For someone who has gone to college, or learned a trade, or just gutted it out, having your wealth confiscated by the government and given to those that failed to out forth the effort is cruel and oppressive. It also serves as a disincentive to those that do accrue wealth as a function of providing the goods and services we consume. Perhaps we would be better off if the government simply banned innovation and creativity, as it is those things that generally lead to wealth creation.

"Clinton had a lot to do with what happened. If nothing else, he concentrated on the economy like few Presidents, and agreed to pare the deficit to nearly zero."

Personally, I regard Clinton as one of the most fiscally conservative presidents ever. Did the republican controlled congress have anything to do with the prosperity? Maybe. But if Clinton were truly as far left as his opponents would have liked people to believe, he really could have fucked up what truly was a financial wet dream. I was too young at the time to remember, but I don't recall Clinton as having the post-Marxist smackings common within the current administration, and with the left in general.

As Dubya proved, you can be given much, and still turn it into shit. Clinton had a lot to do with what happened.

Sorry danforth, you are wrong. The executive branch had nothing to do with it. It was the judicial branch. It was MCI's lawsuit against AT&T that opened the floodgates for LD and bandwidth competition.

But if you insist it was the executive branch that did it, Reagan was president when judge Greene's opinion was made. Once the floodgates were opened, no president could stop what happened after that. And once people saw what could be done with virtually unlimited bandwidth, there was nothing anyone -- including the president -- could do to encourage it further. If you want to give Clinton credit for sitting back and letting the inevitable unfold, then yeah, I guess you are right. Clinton gets credit. But so does Bush and 41. I'd call them shallow victories for those three though. It would be as if the captain of a fishing boat getting credit for the whopper another man brought in.

"The shift in the tax burden was unintentional. It only happened because aggregate wealth in the United States increased."

Except had it increased proportionally, the lower percentiles would have been shouldering a higher percentage of the burden. That the top marginal rates dropped, and the rich still had a higher percentage merely proves the changes facilitated a greater concentration of wealth at the top. And as far as nouveau riche monies, they're nothing but a blip on the radar. I'd be surprised if they comprised 1% of the total.

"The executive branch had nothing to do with it. It was the judicial branch. It was MCI's lawsuit against AT&T that opened the floodgates for LD and bandwidth competition. "

And if we'd had a President back then hell-bound to spend any surpluses into oblivion, the world would be different. Get real: pretending a President who wants to bring down the deficit has no effect on the economy is silly.

"It would be as if the captain of a fishing boat getting credit for the whopper another man brought in."

Sure, but are they called Hoovervilles, or Congressvilles? Is it called The Reagan Revolution, or The Tip O'Neill Compromise? For better or worse, Presidents get the historical nod. No one credits Kennedy's speechwriter.

And if we'd had a President back then hell-bound to spend any surpluses into oblivion, the world would be different

And this has what to do with Clinton's being "responsible" for the dot.com explosion?

Sure, but are they called Hoovervilles, or Congressvilles?

You've lost me

You said earlier:

Clinton had a lot to do with what happened.

Please tell me what Clinton did that encouraged what I feel was inevitable due to technological innovations: The dot.com boom. Why does Clinton get credit for it?

"Please tell me what Clinton did that encouraged what I feel was inevitable due to technological innovations: The dot.com boom. Why does Clinton get credit for it?"

Because with whatever financial surge he got from it, he used it to reduce the annual deficit he inherited, and bequeathed true surplus budgets to his successor, rather than, say...give tax cuts to the wealthiest at a much greater rate than the increase, thereby increasing debt to record levels.

Good enough?

"You've lost me"

Presidents get the nod. No exceptions for shitty Congresses, or perfect ones.

Good enough?

No. You didn't tell me why Clinton gets credit for the dot.com boom. You told me the wonderful things he did for the US economy he got from the windfalls of the boom instead.

"You didn't tell me why Clinton gets credit for the dot.com boom."

He gets no credit at all for that.

He does, however, get credit for what he did with the money, and the situation he left for his successor. And for taking the trajectory from deficits to surpluses.

Bush, otoh, was given the projected surpluses and left behind unending projected deficits. Hard to argue with that trajectory.

"Except had it increased proportionally, the lower percentiles would have been shouldering a higher percentage of the burden. That the top marginal rates dropped, and the rich still had a higher percentage merely proves the changes facilitated a greater concentration of wealth at the top."

It wouldn't increase proportionally unless productivity or wealth creation increased proportionally as well. It likely did, as the more entrepreneurial members of the lower classes transited upwards, but that obviously wouldn't be shown here. Those who were becoming rich were seeing it happen for a reason; because they were creating wealth. For those at the other end of the spectrum, those in the low to unskilled class, they were beginning to see wages decline as the labor markets became more globalized. They were making less money.

Of course all of this is a function of a healthy, dynamic economy. The only way that those in the lower tiers will ever make more money, outside of having government physically take it from someone else and give it to them, is to offer more wealth to society.

Harry Truman, an 88 year old democrat, pulled the country up by the bootstraps after the worst budget deficit in history in just a couple of years.


Times were different then. You did not have the "I got mine fuck off" mentality we have these days.

I would find it hard to beleive that Truman would be able to have a 90% top income tax rate today with all the chinkenshits in Congress and talk radio that would rail against it constantly.

Times were very different back then. We spend $200 billion per year on war... anyone see War Bond Rallies these days?

People used to put the country first. Now it is just a good campaign slogan.

Also you have to remember that back in the 1940's and 50's the rest of the world's manufacturing base was decimated, the US was basically the only game in town to build things.

Now greedy CEO's have shipped our national security to Mexico and China.

Times were very different back then. We spend $ 200 trillion per year on war ... anyone see War Bond Rallies these days?

People Used to put the country first. Now it is just a good campaign slogan.

Posted by 726 to 2010-02-02 08:39 AM

This is what was most stunning to me re Iraq and Afghanistan. Two wars off the books and yet it was a "moral imperative" that there be tax breaks.

And now the deficit. Who could have foreseen...

Two wars off the books

Not paid AND not included in the annual budget under Bushy.

Part of the reason why O's budget deficits look so bad is that he is including the cost of the wars in the budget unlike Bush.

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