Lutherans Split over Gay Clergy

Friday, November 20, 2009

A conservative faction has begun forming a new Lutheran church body separate from the Evangelical Lutheran Church in America in response to an August vote allowing sexually active gay and lesbian pastors to serve as clergy.

Posted by dylanfan at 01:31 PM | 22 COMMENTS | permalink | Comment on This Entry

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Lutherans Split over Gay Clergy (22 comments) ...

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People who know or care about this sort of thing probably saw this coming a long way out.

I don't know how many drudgies know much about the different Lutheran denominations. I for one will be very curious to see how this plays out. I could see CORE congregations going to LCMS. That could bring about women clergy in the LCMS (and open communion?), which would undoubtedly drive some LCMS churches to WELS.

#1 | Posted by dylanfan at 2009-11-19 06:25 PM | Reply | Flag:

Dylan, there are essentially five Lutheran denominations, which have merged and split at various times over the years.

Lutheran congregations are autonomous -- they own their property and employ their staffs (it's the same for Baptists). That's different from other denominations, like Presbyterians and Catholics, where a central authority owns the real estate and employs the pastor.

Being autonomous, each Lutheran congregation belongs to a synod voluntarily, and the members can vote to leave -- say leave ELCA and join the more conservative Missouri Synod.

The Missouri Synod and ELCA were formed by a previous fracture, in which many members felt Scripture was too confining, and they wanted a more liberal approach.

Those congregations formed ELCA. Those who believe that Scripture is God's Word complete became the Missouri Synod.

The Presbyterians went through the same thing about 20 years ago. The next big shake-up will be the United Methodist Church.

#2 | Posted by vernon at 2009-11-19 07:14 PM | Reply | Flag:

Vernon:

Actually Wisconsin synod WELS, adheres more strictly to the Bible than Missouri.

I've been involved with both in the past.

How's Phillip??

#3 | Posted by Lisa at 2009-11-19 07:17 PM | Reply | Flag:

Dylan, I just re-read your post and see that you already know. My previous post was meant for everyone who does not know how this works.

As for your two points, I don't see LCMS going to open communion. Martin Luther himself argued that close communion was essential for the protection of non-believers.

Luther said that if the Eucharist has the power to build you up when properly used, then it has the power to destroy you when not.

Women (and abstinate gays) are already ordained in LCMS. The only position women cannot hold is that of pastor.

#4 | Posted by vernon at 2009-11-19 07:20 PM | Reply | Flag:

"Actually Wisconsin synod WELS, adheres more strictly to the Bible than Missouri. "

Yeah, I've had those arguments before with my WELS friends. Those are the fun, intramural discussions.

Phillip is great, but we've been using his middle name, Seymour, which fits better. He's gaining about a pound a week and gets fussy if his mother steps out of his range of vision.

He loves to stand up and press his legs down on the bed or my chest, with someone holding him upright.

#5 | Posted by vernon at 2009-11-19 07:29 PM | Reply | Flag:

I didn't realize that women could be ordained in the LCMS. What position would they hold as an ordained clergy (?) if not pastor? I actually feel a little sheepish for not knowing this as I have several LCMS pastors and other church workers in my family.

My dad is a pastor and I believe was either on his vicarage, still at sem, or just starting out when the ELCA split from LCMS. He's said he would have had a tough time deciding what to do had he been at that convention, although now he's pretty firmly against the ELCA stances on open communion and ordination of non-celibate gay clergy. The story of the split seems like it would make a good movie, though -- hundreds of pastors standing up en masse and singing "The Church's One Foundation."

In the mid-90s he moved to a fairly conservative church. He had a parishioner began complaining to him about the "heretics" in the ELCA. My dad asked the guy if he thought that he was a heretic. The guy very abashadly said no, and my dad explained that many of his professors at seminary were the same ones who split, and that his theology was influenced by those professors and he was preaching what he had learned from them. I think the guy felt pretty silly at that point, and rightfully so.

#6 | Posted by dylanfan at 2009-11-19 09:02 PM | Reply | Flag:

The Missouri Synod and ELCA were formed by a previous fracture, in which many members felt Scripture was too confining, and they wanted a more liberal approach.

Those congregations formed ELCA. Those who believe that Scripture is God's Word complete became the Missouri Synod.
#2 | Posted by vernon

My dad is a pastor and I believe was either on his vicarage, still at sem, or just starting out when the ELCA split from LCMS.
#6 | Posted by dylanfan

Sorry guys but the ELCA and the LCMS have never been affiliated so there could not have been a split between them.

The LCMS was formed in 1847 while the ELCA was formed in 1988 with the merger of the Lutheran Church in America (LCA), the American Lutheran Church (ALC) and the Association of Evangelical Lutheran Churches.

Only one of the churches that merged to form the ELCA ever had any affiliation with the LCMS. That would be the Association of Evangelical Lutheran Churches. Which was formed in 1976 12 years before the ELCA came about. It was started by congregations that left the LCMS in a schism over the "Seminex Controversy" at Concordia Seminary.

So I'm sorry to tell you you're both wrong but on this occasion you are. No congregations left the LCMS directly to form the ELCA it just didn't happen.

#7 | Posted by TXLIBERTARIAN at 2009-11-19 10:10 PM | Reply | Flag:

I stand corrected. The Seminex controversy was before I was born, so I probably grew up with a faulty understanding of what had taken place.

So it was more or less the AELC that split from LCMS to eventually merge into the ELCA, correct?

#8 | Posted by dylanfan at 2009-11-19 10:28 PM | Reply | Flag:

Just reading over a wikipedia article on Seminex. Apparently I got the bit on the pastors wrong, too, although the hymn was correct.

#9 | Posted by dylanfan at 2009-11-19 10:36 PM | Reply | Flag:

So it was more or less the AELC that split from LCMS to eventually merge into the ELCA, correct?
#8 | Posted by dylanfan

That is correct.

Why are these "CORE" people leaving the Church? Why not stay and try to change what is wrong with our Church?

I don't agree with the Church's decision on this matter. I'm in full favor of Civil same-sex marriage, but I don't think the Church should condone sinful behavior. I won't be leaving my church over this though.

We've had several families leave our congregation over this matter including 1 council member who is a very close friend of mine. He tried to get me to leave with them. I asked him why are you leaving a congregation that loves you and that you love. Why are you punishing our congregation over decisions made by others? I don't think he was ready for that because he didn't have an answer. I think he thought we were just going to leave with them because we were and still are good friends. We just don't go to church together anymore.

#10 | Posted by TXLIBERTARIAN at 2009-11-19 11:14 PM | Reply | Flag:

#6 | Posted by dylanfan at 2009-11-19 09:02 PM | Reply | Flag:

My home church in Tennessee has several ordained women -- just not ordained as pastors. There are teachers at the parochial school, for example and the parish nurse.

They are ordained in their roles and recognized as being called to their ministry.

#11 | Posted by vernon at 2009-11-20 04:40 AM | Reply | Flag:

#7 | Posted by TXLIBERTARIAN at 2009-11-19 10:10 PM | Reply | Flag:

Thanks for the clarification. I used to have a great book that documented the alphabet soup of synods, but it was one of the casualties when I moved to Taiwan.

"What's Going on Among the Lutherans?" published by Northwestern (WELS)

But I do have a defense for my mistake; while most Lutherans are begat by other Lutherans and grow up with the history, I was turned (like a vampire)

#12 | Posted by vernon at 2009-11-20 04:46 AM | Reply | Flag:

Churches and denominations of all stripes, and most religions, have undergone splits and schisms due to doctrinal and dogmatic differences, and it's gone on since the beginning. This is just the latest example.

Sorry for the over-alliteration. Just happened that way.

#13 | Posted by TheTom at 2009-11-20 02:16 PM | Reply | Flag:

(and abstinate gays)

Abstinate: a cross between abstinent and obstinate, meaning celibate but very stubborn about it.

#14 | Posted by BobSF_94117 at 2009-11-20 03:02 PM | Reply | Flag:

Holy cow, one of my stories got promoted to the front page. I think I've died and gone to heaven!

#15 | Posted by dylanfan at 2009-11-20 03:10 PM | Reply | Flag:

But both sides agreed that gassing the jews was great fun.

#16 | Posted by northguy3 at 2009-11-20 06:19 PM | Reply | Flag:

#15 | POSTED BY DYLANFAN
"Holy cow, one of my stories got promoted to the front page. I think I've died and gone to heaven!"

CongratS, DF, you've broken the code! The story involves religion AND homosexuality....now THAT'S front page material!

#14 | POSTED BY BOBSF_94117
Abstinate: a cross between abstinent and obstinate, meaning celibate but very stubborn about it.

LOL, nice!

#17 | Posted by TheTom at 2009-11-20 06:32 PM | Reply | Flag:

The Wisconsin Synod is very conservative, but have any of you heard of the Church of the Lutheran Confession? Dated a woman from that church in my younger days. Hot as all get out and very talented in so many ways, if you get my drift, but when it came to religion, just too out there.

#18 | Posted by SLBronkowitz at 2009-11-20 06:50 PM | Reply | Flag:

Well, looks like my first front-page thread is turning out to be a bust. Oh well. It was an interesting talk with those involved.

#19 | Posted by dylanfan at 2009-11-21 01:23 AM | Reply | Flag:

Leviticus 18:22

#20 | Posted by AuntieSocial at 2009-11-21 09:47 AM | Reply | Flag:

My home church in Tennessee has several ordained women -- just not ordained as pastors. There are teachers at the parochial school, for example and the parish nurse.

They are ordained in their roles and recognized as being called to their ministry.

#11 | Posted by vernon at 2009-11-20 04:40 AM | Reply | Flag:Closet gay

#21 | Posted by lfthndthrds at 2009-11-21 08:12 PM | Reply | Flag:

I just assume they're all gay.

#22 | Posted by BruceBanner at 2009-11-22 01:43 AM | Reply | Flag: