Could someone please lay out the non secular anti gay marriage argument? I consider myself to have at least average intelligence and I can't find that argument anywhere. Even if you are for gay marriage and are playing devil's advocate, lay it out for me.

#1 | Posted by andyuhenet at 2009-11-04 04:53 PM | Reply

Homosexual behavior is qualitatively different than the kind of heterosexual behavior our definition of "marriage" is intended for.

Studies have shown the average hetero male has had 7 sexual partners.

Studies have shown the average homo male has had anywhere from 509 sexual partners to over 1,000 in one study.

Most gay long-term relationships are not monogamous, according to some studies and much anecdotal evidence.

The origin of homosexual behavior is often related to pre-pubescent sexual activity between members of the same sex, often non-consensual--a very troubling thing to consider codifying into law.

Argue the studies all you want, but THERE IS NON-RELIGIOUS argument made from sociological studies.

funk!!!!

You guys can't say ANYTHING other than "bigot" or "bigotry" when you talk about those who oppose gay marriage, huh?

You're like pro-gay conspiracy theorists that think the world just loves to lynch them some gays!

Danforth,

why are you such a douche when you debate this topic with people that believe differently than you?

It's classic when you promote homosexuality and then use homosexuality as an insult for people like me. I know you've said you're hetero and married, so that gay-loathing is really conflicted and disturbing.

This is the ONLY issue I ever see you writing passionately about on here...why?

Somebody asked for non-religious arguments, I gave 'em some. Look your own effin' studies up and post 'em, hater.

Kirk I definitely don't have a pro gay agenda, I really don't care about gay rights issues at all, I just don't think that 500+ partners is a norm.

#29 | Posted by andyuhenet at 2009-11-04 11:45 PM | Reply

I'd agree.
But SOME researcher found that.

My close family friend who died of AIDS, who happened to be gay, had a long-term relationship, but there were MANY other partners DURING that relationship.

And everyone of you that point out the horrible hypocrisy in many heterosexual marriage are FUCKING correct--and I'm far more outspoken and preachy against them!

Here's your source:

You're a self-loathing gay man admittedly living his life in the closet. You're probably not the best barometer.
#37 | Posted by Danforth at 2009-11-05 12:04 AM | Reply

Now you lie about me...while STILL calling me a homosexual. I'd love to hear/see where I admitted anything in the neighborhood of this.

You have deep-seated issues and I hope you get help.

Look up your own studies and try to control your disdain of others.

I was asked a question and answered it.

Buy the book and you'll see.

Why don't you both post ONE study saying what the average number for homosexual sex parters is.

I was asked for AN ARGUMENT, not a fargain research project.

Everytime ANYONE provides evidence that shows anything negative about homosexuality, the evidence is debated. I've done plenty of my own research, and I won't be your research bitch.

Do your own research.

You'll have to carry on your name-calling without me.

From that book, over 40% admitted to
500 or more partners in a lifetime, nearly 30% admitted to
1000 or more in a lifetime, and of these people,
79% said that half of those partners were total
strangers.

the question I was asked ( and answered) was for a non-religious ARGUMENT against gay marriage.

G'night you fabulous boys.

from Lisa's link:
"A far-ranging study of homosexual men published in 1978 revealed that 75 percent of self-identified, white, gay men admitted to having sex with more than 100 different males in their lifetime: 15 percent claimed 100-249 sex partners; 17 percent claimed 250- 499; 15 percent claimed 500-999; and 28 percent claimed more than 1,000 lifetime male sex partners"

I NEVER said "low average"
I mentioned a range'
Danforth at 11:48 used the term "low average"

So here's a few RELIGIOUS arguments against homosexual behavior:

1Co 6:9 Or do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived; neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor homosexuals,
1Co 6:10 nor thieves, nor the covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor swindlers, will inherit the kingdom of God.
1Co 6:11 Such were some of you; but you were washed, but you were sanctified, but you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and in the Spirit of our God.

--"such WERE some of you." Apparently the 1st century church, just like many churches today, were FULL of EX-homosexuals. It's also interesting that the 2 words used, "effeminate" and "homosexual" are 2 different Greek words referring to 2 different homosexual acts/actors.

1Ti 1:8 But we know that the Law is good, if one uses it lawfully,
1Ti 1:9 realizing the fact that law is not made for a righteous person, but for those who are lawless and rebellious, for the ungodly and sinners, for the unholy and profane, for those who kill their fathers or mothers, for murderers
1Ti 1:10 and immoral men and homosexuals and kidnappers and liars and perjurers, and whatever else is contrary to sound teaching,
1Ti 1:11 according to the glorious gospel of the blessed God, with which I have been entrusted.

--The same word used in the first passage, translated "homosexuals" is used in this passage.

Rom 1:18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men who suppress the truth in unrighteousness,
Rom 1:19 because that which is known about God is evident within them; for God made it evident to them.
Rom 1:20 For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes, His eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly seen, being understood through what has been made, so that they are without excuse.
Rom 1:21 For even though they knew God, they did not honor Him as God or give thanks, but they became futile in their speculations, and their foolish heart was darkened.
Rom 1:22 Professing to be wise, they became fools,
Rom 1:23 and exchanged the glory of the incorruptible God for an image in the form of corruptible man and of birds and four-footed animals and crawling creatures.
Rom 1:24 Therefore God gave them over in the lusts of their hearts to impurity, so that their bodies would be dishonored among them.
Rom 1:25 For they exchanged the truth of God for a lie, and worshiped and served the creature rather than the Creator, who is blessed forever. Amen.
Rom 1:26 For this reason God gave them over to degrading passions; for their women exchanged the natural function for that which is unnatural,
Rom 1:27 and in the same way also the men abandoned the natural function of the woman and burned in their desire toward one another, men with men committing indecent acts and receiving in their own persons the due penalty of their error.

--homosexuality and lesbianism starts when one doesn't honor God, nor gives thanks.

Now you have a few reasons, religious and non-religious, that show the error of homosexual behavior.

Argue, debate, hate-on, whatever.

Toodles.

Kirk thanks for answering my question for a secular argument. The amount of sexual partners I'm skeptical about but I'll check the link and actually look to see if there's anything to these studies.

#66 | Posted by andyuhenet at 2009-11-05 12:32 AM | Reply

Glad to endure Danforth's flamming attacks to answer someone with a worthy question.

I'd really love to see what a more modern, accurate answer is, but I'm not doing the research myself.

If anyone has such, please post it...whenever.

The truth is out there.

#39---"a study from 1978. Excuse me" Based on the degeneration of this society over the last 30 years, the count's probably doubled-- would you agree with that ,Kirk ?

#62 | Posted by matsop at 2009-11-05 12:27 AM | Reply |

I have no idea.

I know that the more sexual partners someone has, the more they are hurting inside, hetero or homo.

Only deeply flawed people have numerous sexual partners, and I spend MORE time helping heteros in that area. But I know a number of BOTH with deep regrets for their sexual histories.

I think heteros have more repentance to do in the sexual area, imho. At least in sheer agregate numbers.

Making up bullshit "quotes" is a pretty clear admission of a non-existent argument.#72 | Posted by Danforth at 2009-11-05 12:48 AM | Reply

Again you toss around accusations without merit.

You have yet to show ONE of my quotes or statements is bullshit.
Making bullshit conclusions with NO evidence is what YOU have been doing.

I posted from one of the three literal Bible versions, the most recently done that reflects modern scholarship the NASB.

YOU posted from the 1611(!) King James Version.

Look up the original Greek.
It very easy and can be done online in the KJV or the NASB.

Or do *I* do all the research around here.
So far all you, Danforth, have provided is name-calling and petty insults.

And please post some of my posts that indicate *I* hate homosexuals?

What?!?! Can't do it? Then stfu.

And it's also classic how you don't even TRY, Danforth, to interact with the rest of that same passage or the other ones, such as "men with men committing indecent acts" "abandoned the natural use of the woman and burned in their desire toward one another"

Danforth, here's from the KJV why their own translation isn't the most accurate.
The numbers next to the word are called Strong's numbers, used to aid in research so everyone doesn't have to read Greek to "fact-check" the original language.

1Co 6:9 (2228) Know1492 ye not3756 that3754 the unrighteous94 shall not3756 inherit2816 the kingdom932 of God?2316 Be not3361 deceived:4105 neither3777 fornicators,..nor3777 effeminate,3120 nor3777 abusers of themselves with mankind,733

G733
ἀρσενοκοίτης
arsenokoitēs; from G733b and G2845; a sodomite: - homosexuals (2).

LOOK AT the word above. The first four letters are ARSE! The second part of the word is Greek 2845 meaning bed, with a sexual implication (koite--where we get "coitus" as in "coitus interruptus").

Literally ass-sex in a bed.
Want to recant now, Danforth?

G2845
κοίτη
koitē
koy'-tay
From G2749; a couch; by extension cohabitation; by implication the male sperm: - bed, chambering, X conceive.

G2845
κοίτη
koitē; from G2749; a bed: - bed (2), conceived *(1), sexual promiscuity (1).

here's the arse part:
G730
ἄῤῥην / αρσην
arrhēn / arsēn
Thayer Definition:
1) a male
Part of Speech: adjective

Here's a few other translations, all indicating that MY translation was the applicable one:
1Co 6:9
(ALT) You* know that unrighteous [ones] will not inherit [the] kingdom of God, do you* not? Stop being led astray [fig., being deceived]; neither sexual sinners nor idolaters nor adulterers nor passive partners in male-male sex nor active partners in male-male sex

(BBE) Have you not knowledge that evil-doers will have no part in the kingdom of God? Have no false ideas about this: no one who goes after the desires of the flesh, or gives worship to images, or is untrue when married, or is less than a man, or makes a wrong use of men,

(EMTV) Or do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived. Neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor homosexuals, nor sodomites,

(GNB) Surely you know that the wicked will not possess God's Kingdom. Do not fool yourselves; people who are immoral or who worship idols or are adulterers or homosexual perverts

(GW) Don't you know that wicked people won't inherit the kingdom of God? Stop deceiving yourselves! People who continue to commit sexual sins, who worship false gods, those who commit adultery, homosexuals,

(ISV) You know that wicked people will not inherit the kingdom of God, don't you? Stop deceiving yourselves! Sexually immoral people, idolaters, adulterers, male prostitutes, homosexuals,

(LITV) Or do you not know that unjust ones will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be led astray, neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor male prostitutes, nor homosexuals,

(Murdock) Or do ye not know, that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not mistake; neither whoremongers, nor idol-worshippers, nor adulterers, nor debauchers, nor liers with males,

(NASB) Or do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived; neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor homosexuals,

(YLT) have ye not known that the unrighteous the reign of God shall not inherit? be not led astray; neither whoremongers, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor sodomites,

Perhaps you'd prefer the translations that say "sodomites."

It's incredibly sad that people are using their religious beliefs and their desire not to change the meaning of a word to deny marriage to gays.

#81 | Posted by rcade at 2009-11-05 07:17 AM | Reply

The BULK of comments above are NOT religious in nature, so your argument only goes sooo far.

Do you really think it's just fundie types IN THIRTY ONE STATES that have voted gay marriage down?!

Ergo, you, Kirk, are on the wrong side of both history and morality.Doesn't matter how long or loud you thump that Bible.Wrong is wrong.Be Well.#87 | Posted by dethspud at 2009-11-05 10:26 AM | Reply

Wrong side of history, huh?

And your "evolution" takes us BACK to Sodom, ancient Rome and ancient Greece.

How'd that work out for them?

Their civilizations lasted centuries. Both cultures left a profound and lasting effect on future cultures, e3specaiily those in place today. Even today, their architecture, art, fighting styles, fashion, laws, assemblies, theater, etc., are copied, emulated, revered.
#101 | Posted by ZOT at 2009-11-05 05:08 PM | Reply |

So that's the inevitability of gay progress and history you and others talk of...some style and the fall of civilizations that it's taken millenia to even START approaching in gay-ness.

So we'll have Crocodile Rock and We Will Rock You and Queer Eye for the Straight Guy and the modern fashion industry and effette men in lavish clothes on the West Coast and the tunes from Hair.

Wow! You guys are right about being on the right (gay) side of history. It'll be fab-u-lousss!

"Washington voters are narrowly approving the state's new "everything butt marriage" domestic partnerships law.."

I'm also not sure that I'm comfortable with a law called "everything butt-marriage"

I don't excel at spelling or the language arts, so perhaps I'm missing something...