Drudge Retort: Red Meat for Yellow Dogs

Ukraine is battling an outbreak of flu that's sickened 478,400 people, killed 81, overwhelming its medical facilities. "Everyone is scared," said Dr. Hryhoriy Stasiv. "We don't have masks. We don't have medicines. We see on TV that drugs are on the way, but it's been a while and they're still not here."

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I'm sure our preeminent molecular biologist Dr. Contrarian can explain how the Ukraine's less-than-stellar public health infrastructure has nothing to do with it.

Zombie,

Ad hominem all you want. You apparently didn't read how there were a total of two cases of regular swine flu and no deaths as of October 30, let alone the more virulent strain of A/H1N1 that suddenly kills scores.

there were a total of two cases of regular swine flu and no deaths as of October 30

Irrelevant. It's not as if Ukranians are magically immune to the virus. H1N1 is distributed worldwide and as people travel it will ultimately infiltrate areas with previously low rates of infection. That's what happens in a pandemic.

Since vaccine coverage is still low, I imagine it got into the staff at a hospital or two. From there, it could spread faster than a nonsensical rumor of a biological warfare.

let alone the more virulent strain of A/H1N1 that suddenly kills scores

Disease is a product of viral replication and the host response to it. Individual variation can alter disease severity to a great degree. This virus causes mild disease in many, like the seasonal flu, but it can also make some individuals severely ill. That's the nature of this and many other viruses.

It is certainly possible for the virus to evolve greater virulence. I should add that viral evolution occurs rapidly without the tinkering of the Legion of Doom, Satan-worshipping Illuminati microbiologists, and lizard people. If greater virulence gives the virus an advantage in transmission or replication, a variant with greater virulence can begin to spread. The virus in the Ukraine is probably not anything new or different. So many hosts are susceptible that H1N1 in its current form spreads quite well.

your statement defies all common sense beyond all the ad hominem B.S. Further, you don't even bother to mention the sudden arrival of the more virulent strain of A/H1N1.

obama did it. part of a vast conspiracy to thin the world's population to avoid carrying capacity issues.

This virus causes mild disease in many, like the seasonal flu, but it can also make some individuals severely ill like seasonal flu. That's the nature of this and many other viruses.

Too often people misunderstand important points of information in regards to biology because they take a one-size-fits-all approach.

Look up quasi-species and host factors. You'll be amazed at how many shades of grey actually exist.

your statement defies all common sense

No, just conspiracy theory "logic."

Wow...that's a mortality rate of .000169 percent.

Color me convinced. I'll be taking a triple vaccine dose this afternoon.

Three Cheers for Kiev!

Hip Hip! HOOORAY!


Hip Hip! HOOORAY!


Hip Hip! HOOORAY!

you don't even bother to mention the sudden arrival of the more virulent strain of A/H1N1

I guess you missed this part of my post earlier:

Disease is a product of viral replication and the host response to it. Individual variation can alter disease severity to a great degree. This virus causes mild disease in many, like the seasonal flu, but it can also make some individuals severely ill. That's the nature of this and many other viruses.

It is certainly possible for the virus to evolve greater virulence. I should add that viral evolution occurs rapidly without the tinkering of the Legion of Doom, Satan-worshipping Illuminati microbiologists, and lizard people. If greater virulence gives the virus an advantage in transmission or replication, a variant with greater virulence can begin to spread. The virus in the Ukraine is probably not anything new or different. So many hosts are susceptible that H1N1 in its current form spreads quite well.

Wow...that's a mortality rate of .000169 percent.

Color me convinced. I'll be taking a triple vaccine dose this afternoon.

Again, idiot, mortality is not the only measure of disease severity.

God it amazes me how uni-dimensional some people are.

Might be all the fish soup and pickles those sick fucks are eating.

#6 jpw

A new low in your shill-dom.

Conspiracy theory, scum?


30 Oktober, Earthtimes reported that Ukraine had officially reported only two cases of swine flu, and no deaths, until last Friday

Until Friday, Ukraine had officially recorded only two cases of swine flu, and no deaths, since the first confirmed infection identified in June. The first sufferer, who has since recovered completely, victim arrived in Ukraine from the US.

Officially is the key word you're looking for there buddy. Couple that with the fact that once introduced, it will not take long to spread rapidly.

It was probably present before friday in much larger numbers than was known.

So yes, it is a conspiracy theory if you're somehow trying to insinuate that this is a case of biowarfare.


On a side note, why is it that someone who mistrusts government at ALL times all of a sudden believes them in this case?

Ukraine Gripped By Sudden A/H1N1 Flu Virus

A sudden flu outbreak has brought life in Ukraine to a halt. All public meetings are banned, schools are closed for three weeks, and nine regions are in quarantine. The Ukrainian health ministry says 70 people have died of the A(H1N1) flu virus and 15,000 are in hospital.

The sudden flu outbreak was more than the country could cope with.

What's more, the dramatic appeal came amidst rumours of biological warfare in the capital Kiev. A plane was said to have flown over the city releasing powder containing a mutated variety of the virus. The Ukrainian government categorically denies the reports.

All the political and media hype seems to be more dangerous than this mild H1N1 flu strain. Yaaaawn.

Right on, Ukraine! Low mortality rate.

Did you people happen to see the mortality rates in UK, Canada and other places with socialized meds, vs. the US?

Too often people misunderstand important points of information in regards to biology because they take a one-size-fits-all approach.

Not trying to do that, but I guess I wasn't clear.

Look up quasi-species and host factors. You'll be amazed at how many shades of grey actually exist.

Viruses never cease to amaze me. A couple of my favorite topics in virology are RNA virus evolution and the coevolution of antiviral effectors and viral countermeasures, so I've come across these concepts before. I hope to ultimately end up studying something along those lines when I move on to grad school. As I learn more, I see more of the "shades of grey" that you're referring to and just become more interested.

What kind of work are you or your lab involved in, by the way?

#17 zombie
A couple of my favorite topics in virology are RNA virus evolution

apparently you'll get a real life education as this story unfolds.

Does any one know how our mortality and IQ rates if we take out all the "non" americans who really don't or didn't belong?

Mystery Flu Cases Double in Last Two Days

478,456 Influenza/ARI

24,003 Hospitalized

60 Ventilators

81 Deaths

Clusters of Hemorrhagic H1N1 pneumonia

Flu Tracker Map

Not trying to do that, but I guess I wasn't clear.

That wasn't directed at you. Sorry about that.

It was directed at the "this is like seasonal flu it's only killed blah blah blah" people who think mortality is the only measure to pay attention to.

It's probably the Chernobyl flu, not the swine flu.

"Again, idiot, mortality is not the only measure of disease severity.

God it amazes me how uni-dimensional some people are."

Funny, that how liberals derive at our healthcare being the worst on the planet. Hard to imagine that there's more to a disease's severity than there is to an entire healthcare ecology?

apparently you'll get a real life education as this story unfolds.

Yep, in a way.

There have been pandemics in the past, so you can learn from them as well, but the last few months have been very interesting.

It's like Clinton's Avian Flu... some thought for sure that was a way to kill off seniors and save medicare :^p

Funny, that how liberals derive at our healthcare being the worst on the planet. Hard to imagine that there's more to a disease's severity than there is to an entire healthcare ecology?

Your first sentence doesn't make any sense.

For the rest, what the hell does that have to do with anything?

And what makes you think I'm a liberal?

It's probably the Chernobyl flu, not the swine flu.

My friend just got over a case of the Wild Turkey flu last weekend. There will never be a cure for that one.

Did I say YOU were a liberal? I guess my leap was as big as yours?

Mortality... Mortality... Mortality... It's the WHO's gold standard for rating the US 37th in the world in healthcare. That and the lack of socialized medicine.

Therefore, if the life cycle of a virus is more complex than the mortality that results, it would imply that a nation's healthcare cannot be thusly interpreted by mortality.

You may NOT be a liberal... I really don't care.

#17 zombie
A couple of my favorite topics in virology are RNA virus evolution

apparently you'll get a real life education as this story unfolds.

#24 zombie
Yep, in a way.

There have been pandemics in the past, so you can learn from them as well, but the last few months have been very interesting.


My statement was very specific to the portion of the statement as I posted. "A couple of my favorite topics in virology are RNA virus evolution"
to which I replied "apparently you'll get a real life education as this story unfolds."

Did I say YOU were a liberal? I guess my leap was as big as yours?

You quote me and then go off on liberals.

I guess it's not that big of a leap in my mind.

Therefore, if the life cycle of a virus is more complex than the mortality that results, it would imply that a nation's healthcare cannot be thusly interpreted by mortality.

Sure.

What the heck, it works for Ronald Rumsfeld, and being a republican, he make sure his Tamiflu profits trickles down to the little guy back home.

Again, idiot, mortality is not the only measure of disease severity.

God it amazes me how uni-dimensional some people are.

When it comes to trying to scare me into getting a vaccine, idiot, it IS the only measure of disease severity that I am concerned about.

Though you would undoubtedly pimp the merits of a vaccine for athlete's foot if such a thing existed.

pimp the merits of a vaccine for athlete's foot if such a thing existed.

#32 your statement isn't as far-fetched as you imagine. Perhaps not specifically athlete's foot....

How safe are prescription drugs?

In 1998 an extensive study published in the reputable Journal of the American Medical Association (JAMA) showed that 106,000 people die each year in American hospitals from medication side effects (4).

Let's look at this statistic a different way: 106,000 deaths a year averages out to nearly 300 deaths per day, every day. Deaths from all major airline crashes in the U.S. average less than 300 annually, but 1 airplane crash gets more media attention and governmental scrutiny than the 300 medication-related deaths which occurred not only on the same day as the airline crash, but also every day before and after for decades.

Why has this epidemic of side effects gone unrecognized? Deaths from medication reactions rarely look any different from natural deaths. There's no visible wreckage to videotape, no crash sites to fascinate and horrify TV viewers. As media people say, 'No film, no story'. Media and public relations firms, and how they shape the public's awereness, are discussed in more detail here.

Medication deaths often occur quietly in hospitals, emergency rooms and private homes. When medication-related deaths occur, it's often unclear at first whether the cause was the medication, the illness, or some other factor. In other words, to much of the media, there is nothing sexy about side effects.

The reported adverse effects of drugs are only the tip of the iceberg. Consider 'Digoxin', the best-selling heart drug. According to an article in JAMA, the Food and Drug Administration (FDA) receives about 82 reports each year involving Digoxin, yet a systematic study of Medicare records reveals 202,211 hospitalizations for Digoxin adverse effects in a 7-year period (5). That's more than 28,000 reactions per year, 82 of which the Food and Drug Administration (FDA) hears about.


www.healingdaily.com

Tragically, our two resident poison peddlers treat 106,000 deaths a year with the same indifference the military treats "collateral damage."

"In 1998 an extensive study published in the reputable Journal of the American Medical Association (JAMA) showed that 106,000 people die each year in American hospitals from medication side effects (4)."


News flash! Sick people in hospitals die! Developing...

"106,000 people die each year in American hospitals from medication side effects"

How many would die without medication?

Hello?

Ray,

I always enjoy your opinion, but I am befuddled by your fairly staunch opposition to curative drugs and vaccinations.

For Pete's sake, Polio and Small Pox were eradicated via vaccinations.

Leading and Actual Causes of Death
z.about.com

Smoking tobacco and poor diet dwarf everything else combined.

Zat,

I have it on strong authority that death is the leading cause of death.

Belay the "smoking" part.

Damn, drug use is at the bottom. WTF?

Anerica, one key short of a full board.

"death is the leading cause of death"

Well, duh.

"The most unfair thing about life is the way it ends. I mean, life is tough. It takes up a lot of your time. What do you get at the end of it? A Death! What's that, a bonus? I think the life cycle is all backwards. You should die first, get it out of the way. Then you live in an old age home. You get kicked out when you're too young, you get a gold watch, you go to work. You work forty years until you're young enough to enjoy your retirement. You do drugs, alcohol, you party, you get ready for high school. You go to grade school, you become a kid, you play, you have no responsibilities, you become a little baby, you go back into the womb, you spend your last nine months floating...


...and you finish off as an orgasm."

George Carlin

I always enjoy your opinion, but I am befuddled by your fairly staunch opposition to curative drugs and vaccinations.
For Pete's sake, Polio and Small Pox were eradicated via vaccinations.
#37 | POSTED BY JEFFJ

I am well versed on how effective natural alternatives are. Disease, infectious and metabolic, are largely nutritional in nature. "Curative" drugs treat the symptoms while doing nothing for the root cause of disease, plus imposing another stress on out bodies. You're literally poisoning yourself with their side effects. As far as I'm concerned, big pharma are criminals. Of course they don't see it any more than our military sees their crimes.

Ray,

To an extent I agree with you, but please reconcile that with the eradication of small pox and polio (my Mom was afflicted and managed to recover WITH a lot of pain as a youth and I have a recently deceased uncle who wasn't so fortunate).

Both have been eradicated and I don't see any other reason other than vaccination.

"small pox and polio"

Are you actually trying to communicate with Ray?
Larry is smarter than Ray and Larry isn't even stupid.

Screw you, Zat.

Ray is one of the most civil and well-premised individuals on this blog.

Jeff

There is a place for allotropic medicine in any phisican's toobox. The industry went far beyong practical usage into areas where nutritutional methods are more powerful. Amerians are getting sicker and the cost of health care has gotten exorbitant. I would call that a complete failure to improve the state of of health in this country.

My recomendation to anyone is to make an effort to learn about food and food supplements. The first book that steered me in that direction was called "Food is Your Best Medicine." That title is true today as it was forty years ago.

As for the flu, whatever the strain, I don't have to worry about that stuff. I rarely get sick, and when I do, the symptoms are mild.

Ray is an idiot on the level of Buffalo Bob and Bani; Just like you.
Deal with it.

"Ray is one of the most civil and well-premised individuals on this blog."

Well-premised? Ray has a crackpot theory for every isssue. You're nuts.

It's always the same two who follow me around. One is morbidly obese and the other is a drug addict. LOL!

Oh please.

Ray has his faults but ALL of his arguments are firmly premised.

#52 | Posted by JeffJ at 2009-11-04 08:49 PM | Reply | Flag: horseshit

"Ray has his faults but ALL of his arguments are firmly premised."

Including his usual demolition of Christian arguments?

Ray,

You kinda dodged my point - you seem to be railing against vaccinations when I pointed out that 2 HUGE afflictions were basically eradicated vis a vis vaccinations.

You are on the verge of making me apologize to Zat for insulting you.

One is morbidly obese and the other is a drug addict. LOL!

#51 | Posted by Ray at 2009-11-04 08:49 PM | Reply | Flag: Gold addict and member of John Birch Society

#53 | Posted by Zatoichi

I think bullshit would have worked better! :-)

Do they have rehab clinics for gold addicts?

Flag: Gold addict and member of John Birch Society

#56 | Posted by nullifidian


Lame.

Mao once characterized Ray as a biblical philosopher who whordes gold - that just sounds funnier (I suspect Ray would agree).

"Including his usual demolition of Christian arguments?"

That's the only time he invokes general scientific consensus.

The 'net has engendered many Social Psychology PhD degrees.

Compared to Zed, Ray is boring. But this place is a target-rich environment.

tip.psychology.org

"Mao once characterized Ray as a biblical philosopher who whordes gold "

Whordes gold? A whore for gold?

Including his usual demolition of Christian arguments?

To his credit he's read the various Christian bibles (yes, there's more than one) from cover to cover.

Acd actually, the term Mao used was "biblical astrologist.

Funny term.

Hoard's gold and he's a biblical astrologer - he also preaches of an impending economic apocolypse.


When I saw the comment you were the first person I thought of because I thought you would have laughed.

You kinda dodged my point - you seem to be railing against vaccinations when I pointed out that 2 HUGE afflictions were basically eradicated vis a vis vaccinations.

I don't know enough about the circumstances behind polio and small pox to be sure there weren't other coincidental factors that eradicated them. I have suspicions that there were other factors, but I can't prove it. It still doesn't negate my original point that bad nutrition is behind almost all disease.

It still doesn't negate my original point that bad nutrition is behind almost all disease.


Which is a fair and valid point.


However, your point does nothing to detract from my counter as you freely admit: I don't know enough about the circumstances behind polio and small pox to be sure there weren't other coincidental factors that eradicated them.

So what, you just assume?

Larry is smarter than Ray and Larry isn't even stupid.

There are no stupid people on the DR just ornery naive folks (the lefties, idealists etc.), ornery commonsense folk (the libertarians, conservatives etc.), Larry (he's in a class by himself), fictionalized stereotypes (Skippy Wellington etc.), cartoonish farces (Tiny Elvis, Buffoon_Boob etc.) and one gullible pious Cheesehead who loves everybody

Swine Flu -- One of the Most Massive Cover-ups in American History

By Dr. Russell Blaylock (www.russellblaylockmd.com)

What experience and history teach is this -- that people and governments never have learned anything from history or acted on principles deduced from it." G.W.F. Hegel

I have been following the evolving "pandemic" of H1N1 influenza beginning with the original discovery of the infection in Mexico in March of this year. In the course of this study I have tried to utilize as my sources high-quality, peer-reviewed journals, data from the CDC and accepted textbooks of virology.

As with all such studies one has to integrate and correlate previous experiences with epidemics and pandemics. As you will see, a great deal of my material comes from official sources, such as the Center for Disease Control and Prevention, the National Institutes of Health, the National Institutes of Allergy and Infectious Diseases and the New England Journal of Medicine. Thus my distracters cannot claim that I am using material that is not within the mainstream.
MORE ....

So what, you just assume?
#65 | POSTED BY JEFFJ

I assume nothing. Out of habit, I read sources that are contrary to my own. It opens my world view of how the world works. It is because the drug companies are whores in so many areas of health, that I view anything they promote with suspicion.

"and one gullible pious Cheesehead who loves everybody"

#66 | Posted by Gimme_a_Scotch at 2009-11-04 09:28 PM | Reply | Flag:NEEDS A HUG

#66 | Posted by Gimme_a_Scotch at 2009-11-04 09:28 PM | Reply | Flag:NEEDS A HUG

#69 | Posted by Lisa

Er no thanks my Buxom Blonde Bimbo Baker neighbor has that covered

"Er no thanks my Buxom Blonde Bimbo Baker neighbor has that covered"

Ummm...I didn't say it should be from me.

But I'm glad you're finally getting one from somebody...hic up!

"Er no thanks my Buxom Blonde Bimbo Baker neighbor has that covered"

Ummm...I didn't say it should be from me.

#71 | Posted by Lisa

You have no idea what a relief it was to read that you weren't offering your hug services Miss Rah-Rah


I'm on a roll today nothing but good news all around

"I'm on a roll today nothing but good news all around"

The herpes sore on her mouth finally went away??

That's great.

Only took two months this time.

"I'm on a roll today nothing but good news all around"

The herpes sore on her mouth finally went away??

That's great.

Only took two months this time.

#73 | Posted by Lisa

Well she wasn't one of the good news today I meant but for you that was a hell of a retort [sniff] I feel like such a successful Svengali in regards to you right now. Way to go kid!

"I feel like such a successful Svengali in regards to you right now. Way to go kid!"

You're taking credit for what exactly???

Guess I spoke too soon I should've known better than to compliment a Cheesehead whose head is made of Swiss cheese

"Guess I spoke too soon I should've known better than to compliment a Cheesehead whose head is made of Swiss cheese"

You weren't complimenting me, you were too busy patting yourself on the back for whatever reason.

Hope you wore your prayer shawl today it'd be a damn shame if your half century old Swiss cheese head got any moldier

If the best you can do is make cheesehead wise cracks, I feel sorry for you.

I'll let you have the last word.

Enjoy.

No go for it I insist I'll cease and desist


For tonite

"No go for it I insist I'll cease and desist


For tonite"

How about forever??

It still doesn't negate my original point that bad nutrition is behind almost all disease.


Which is a fair and valid point.

No, it's not a fair and valid point.

You won't find a single doctor who will disagree with the statement that good nutrition is absolutely required for good health and therefore is indirectly required for reduced illness.

That doesn't mean it's behind most disease.


Of course Ray will respond with his typical claims that there's plenty of evidence and studies to support his assertion, but he won't actually provide any. When I ask him to he'll claim I won't read it anyway and around and around we'll go.

...bad nutrition is behind almost all disease.

That's a stretch, but a lot more true then we can cure the disease with a pill.

Of course Ray will respond with his typical claims that there's plenty of evidence and studies to support his assertion, but he won't actually provide any. When I ask him to he'll claim I won't read it anyway and around and around we'll go.
#82 | Posted by jpw

Liar! I do time after time, but you dismiss anything not from your approved sources. That's like Christians who will only believe what they read in the Bible.

Got my h1n1 vaccine yesterday. Hope It works.

That's a stretch, but a lot more true then we can cure the disease with a pill.
#83 | Posted by RingMaster

You're too used to thinking like JPW. Disease is preventable, only if one maintains a high level of health through, diet, exercise, supplements and low psychological stress. Most are too lazy to make the effort. They don't think about sickness until they get sick. Then they run to the doctor to make them feel better. So doctor gives them pills to make them feel better. Then they go on with life doing all the same things that keep them in a marginal state of health.

The lesson: when you get sick, that is your body's way of telling you you are mismanaging your health.

Ray BS. Pro athletes get colds all the time. They aren't mismanaging anything. They eat healthy and exercise over 3 hrs a day.

I do time after time, but you dismiss anything not from your approved sources. That's like Christians who will only believe what they read in the Bible.

Round and round!

The lesson: when you get sick, that is your body's way of telling you you are mismanaging your health.

Or the pathogen's way of telling you "I'm heeeeeeeeeeeerrrrrrreeeeeeeeee eeee."

Ray BS. Pro athletes get colds all the time. They aren't mismanaging anything. They eat healthy and exercise over 3 hrs a day.
#87 | Posted by jackass

Well their bodies are telling them there is something missing in what they are doing or not doing.

Or the pathogen's way of telling you "I'm heeeeeeeeeeeerrrrrrreeeeeeeeee eeee."
#88 | Posted by jpw

Duh. We live in a sea of pathogens. You can't account for why people get sick some of the time and not all the time, even when directly exposed. I can.

Duh. We live in a sea of pathogens. You can't account for why people get sick some of the time and not all the time, even when directly exposed. I can.

No, actually we don't Ray. The vast majority of bacteria in our environment are not pathogenic.

And yes, there are many many many many explanations for why people get sick some of the time and not others. Even for the same infection in the same site of the body you have tons of variation.

You're taking the typical one-size-fits-all approach and are neglecting the immense variation that occurs between individual cases.

No, actually we don't Ray. The vast majority of bacteria in our environment are not pathogenic.

That goes without saying. Some are even essential to good health.

And yes, there are many many many many explanations for why people get sick some of the time and not others. Even for the same infection in the same site of the body you have tons of variation.

The conventional approach is ass backwards. It confuses cause and effect.

You're taking the typical one-size-fits-all approach and are neglecting the immense variation that occurs between individual cases.

Wrong again. Every person has to tailor his health habits to his body. We are all uniqely different.

Ray, why bother having this discussion with an obvious shill. They know their talking points and possibly the virology science better than you, so you won't "win" the argument. But of course that has little to do with the truth.

WHO Continues to deceive: Propogates Assumption of H1N1

(Review their statements above where they also propogate the assumption that this is normal h1n1.
)

The World Health Organization (WHO) is continuing to deceive the world by stating sweeping assumptions about the Ukraine pandemic, despite huge differences in transmission and deaths rates.

Infectious disease expert Dr. Donald Lau explained that the chances of the Ukrainian pandemic being the same H1N1 virus that has infected the world are very low. "The statistical probability of this being the same H1N1 virus are infinitesimally small." Dr. Lau stated that the high viral transmission rates are extremely unusual for H1N1 and there is almost certainly some type of new virus, or a lethal recombination that has occurred.

Dr. Lau has estimated the probable fatality rate of this new virus to be close to 0.5 percent which is astronomically higher than the H1N1 virus in any part of the world.

the UN health agency said in a statement:
"As the pandemic virus has rapidly become the dominant influenza strain worldwide, it can be assumed that most cases of influenza in Ukraine are caused by the H1N1 virus," the agency said.

Here's the proper link:

WHO Continues to deceive: Propogates Assumption of H1N1

Ray, why bother having this discussion with an obvious shill. They know their talking points and possibly the virology science better than you, so you won't "win" the argument. But of course that has little to do with the truth.

I never had a good foil on this topic until JPW and Zombie. Convincing them they are quacks would be impossible. Rather, this is a topic that has to be aired out in front of others. I think that's why you post here too.

#95 ray
Normally my posts get slammed by one or both of them. No comment so far on their collusion with the WHO effort going on in Ukraine. Also, did you see on the main 'Are you taking s/f vaccine', I caught zombie in outright lie on FluMist. When I pointed it out, jpw comes in [to the rescue] then answers/diverts my statement as if I was speaking about the shot. Then, attempts to make statements as if they know better than the FluMist vaccine warning on danger to exposure to an immunocompromised person! Look at #154-165. The conversation is archived.

Drudge

Ray, you may be aware of what is being stated by Zombie: "A couple of my favorite topics in virology are RNA virus". I found that disturbing in light of what is developing in Ukraine.

#95 ray
I think that's why you post here too.

Absolutely. The problem is these discussions come and go. Very few see or would bother linking back to the exposures made previously by many, even when posted.


I was watching a video on preventdisease where they speak to the topic you were debating over last two days (starts at Video #1 about 5:00 in). site

Also, 'The Danger of Over-Vaccination...' backs up your strongly held belief on the topic.

Check out this stunning WHO propaganda piece!

Uberdoor

Ray, you may be aware of what is being stated by Zombie: "A couple of my favorite topics in virology are RNA virus evolution". I found that disturbing in light of what is developing in Ukraine.

Do you go through life constantly on the verge of voiding your bowels out of terror?

Ray, you may be aware of what is being stated by Zombie: "A couple of my favorite topics in virology are RNA virus evolution". I found that disturbing in light of what is developing in Ukraine.

That's to be expected since pathogens develop immunities against their poisons. This is one battle they can't win. I think they are losing credibility as the doses induce stronger side reactions.

That's to be expected since pathogens develop immunities against their poisons. This is one battle they can't win.

The battle against a parasite is exceedingly difficult to win, no matter if you let your body do the fighting alone or you use medicine to help. The success in eradicating smallpox and the headway that has been made against polio are notable exceptions. Triumphing against these scourges is only possible because of massive vaccination campaigns and the fact that these viruses only naturally replicate in human hosts.

Let's say Ray has an incredible immune system - for whatever reason, it eliminates most parasites but does not cause appreciable immunopathology. Host defenses are variable and the most vulnerable hosts are eliminated by selection. Ray's offspring will have a selective advantage, and over tens of thousands of years, Ray's immune system genes may become more prevalent in the population.

This creates selection on pathogens, and they inevatably evolve countermeasures. Every virus that has been studied in detail has been found to possess a way of subverting some aspect of the host immune system. These countermeasures may in turn create selection on the host and drive the evolution of its immune system. Our immune systems co-evolves with parasites' adaptations to circumvent them. It's an evolutionary arms race.

Modern medicine effects these arms races and is in a sense caught up in the middle of them. That is unavoidable. Parasites evolve resistance to the drugs used to treat them, so new drugs have to be developed. It is also possible to influence the evolution of pathogens and select for less virulent organisms.

In Alice in Wonderland, the Red Queen tells Alice "It takes all the running you can do to keep in the same place." When hosts and viruses coevolve, the same statement applies. Mere survival demands that hosts and parasites maintain endless cycle of adaptation and counter-adaptation. Modern medicine and the human capacity for innovation allows our species to run a little faster than the competition. What's wrong with that?

This arms race has been going on since the dawn of evolution. If our bodies couldn't develop countermeasures, we wouldn't be here. I submit that your chemical laboratory is no match for the chemical laboratory in our bodies. Your so-called cures are worse than the diseases.

With regard to the claimed elimination of polio and smallpox through vaccination, I've been wondering. If vaccines are supposed to be so effective, why are children taking vaccines for same diseases for over sixty years?

On the rare occasions when I get sick, I don't take medications to mask the symptoms. That only inhibits the healing process and fools us as to the true state of our illness. I find it useful information that tells me how well I am managing my health.

Witch doctors had a racket. Except on rare occasions, our bodies heal themselves. Witch doctors would credit their magic rituals. Some things don't change.

Your so-called cures are worse than the diseases.

The countless millions whose lives have been saved by modern medicine would beg to differ.

I submit that your chemical laboratory is no match for the chemical laboratory in our bodies.

This is a gross oversimplification. The human immune system is a marvel of evolution, but it is by no means perfect. It does enough to ensure that most people will reproduce before succumbing to infectious disease. Medicine acts in synergy with our own defenses, not in place of them. This synergy may not be perfect, but it is far better than nothing.

No chemist can innovate in the same way as the process of natural selection acting on huge populations over evolutionary time scales. A chemist can, however, do far less far faster. It may take millenia of being ravaged by a pathogen before adaptations to resist it become prevalent in the host population. In a few short years, a chemist can develop a drug that will protect practically everyone for a short period. The evolution of resistance is not a problem so long as research continues and there are alternative drugs available.

If there was a financial incentive to do so, new antibiotics could be developed fast enough to keep pace with bacterial evolution. People don't need antibiotics frequently or for long periods, though. There is more money in pills that you have to take every time you want to get a boner from today until the day you die. If you want to complain about the pharmaceutical industry, go bitch about the profit-driven process of deciding what to research.

If vaccines are supposed to be so effective, why are children taking vaccines for same diseases for over sixty years?

It is only currently possible to eradicate a pathogen if the it is a virus and only replicates in human hosts. Viruses cannot replicate outside of their hosts, and if the only host is human you can mount a massive worldwide vaccination campaign. That's not the case for the majority of pathogens. They are going to be around with or without us, so each new generation will have to be vaccinated against them to prevent disease.

The countless millions whose lives have been saved by modern medicine would beg to differ.

It's an archaic paradigm based on treating the symptoms of disease rather than the root cause of disease.

Medicine acts in synergy with our own defenses, not in place of them. This synergy may not be perfect, but it is far better than nothing.

Your medicines disrupt the body's normal healing process while introducing a new stress, the medicine itself. It has a place as an emergency measure and that's all. Medicine cannot replace the imbalances we introduce into our body's through poor diet and mental stress.

If there was a financial incentive to do so, new antibiotics could be developed fast enough to keep pace with bacterial evolution.

Their evolution is unpredictable. You're dreaming. Healthy bodies can make antibodies on the spot.

They are going to be around with or without us, so each new generation will have to be vaccinated against them to prevent disease.

Should vaccinations stop, I think you are going to find out a lot of stuff you don't want to know.

So much crap, so little time.

Convincing them they are quacks would be impossible.

Because you have it backwards.

Good nutrition alone will not cure or prevent illness. It will go a long way towards prevention or alleviating illness, but it will not prevent it, no matter how many times you claim it does.

If our bodies couldn't develop countermeasures, we wouldn't be here.

That's only half correct.

It's also not in the best interest of a virus to kill it's host. Look at any virus that has been in the human population for a long time (ie Herpes viruses), they often cause chronic infections that are usually asymptomatic.

I submit that your chemical laboratory is no match for the chemical laboratory in our bodies.

What the fuck does this even mean? Do you have ANY concept of how the immune system actually works?

Your so-called cures are worse than the diseases.

Unmitigated shit.

Go to Africa or some other third world country where infectious diseases still run rampant and then tell me the drugs we use to treat illness is worse than the disease itself.

With regard to the claimed elimination of polio and smallpox through vaccination, I've been wondering.

Claimed? When was the last small pox case? Have you heard of any since the 1970's?

Where is polio still a problem Ray? Anywhere you know of? (Yes it still is a problem in some areas that are still the focus of the eradication effort).

If vaccines are supposed to be so effective, why are children taking vaccines for same diseases for over sixty years?

Because some illnesses we cannot get rid of completely. We can only prevent their spread into the human population.

On the rare occasions when I get sick, I don't take medications to mask the symptoms. That only inhibits the healing process and fools us as to the true state of our illness.

I actually agree with this. My wife gets mad at me for not taking cold medicine when I'm sick, whereas I prefer to know exactly how I feel and whether the illness is really over with.

Except on rare occasions, our bodies heal themselves.

Uh huh, which is why we developed vaccines in the first place. Thank you Edward Jenner for introducing such a useless concept like vaccines.

It's an archaic paradigm based on treating the symptoms of disease rather than the root cause of disease.

Not when bacteria/viruses ARE the cause of the illness. The presence of pathogens is not a symptom of the disease, they are in fact the cause.

Their evolution is unpredictable. You're dreaming. Healthy bodies can make antibodies on the spot.

Wow. If there was any doubt as to the depths of your ignorance on this topic, you've just shined the light down the hole and showed there is no bottom.

Their evolution is not unpredictable. If you expose a bacteria/virus to a drug, you are providing a selective pressure that will cause resistance to the drug to spread throughout the population. The development of new antibiotics (not antibodies) is something that occurs by two mechanisms-1 discovery of novel classes of compounds that inhibits bacterial/viral growth without effecting the host cells or 2 modification of existing compounds such that resistance to another member of the class doesn't effect the new drug.

As for "healthy bodies make antibodies on the spot," you're way off. Even unhealthy people make antibodies. In both cases, it's hardly on the spot, as antibody responses take 5-7 days to begin and up to a month to mature.

Should vaccinations stop, I think you are going to find out a lot of stuff you don't want to know.

Yeah, like what it's like to have all those diseases we didn't have to worry about until people like you started recommending we stop vaccinations.

#106 | POSTED BY JPW AT 2009-11-05 06:14 PM | REPLY | FLAG: With one exception, not worth the time to respond to.

Not when bacteria/viruses ARE the cause of the illness.

Wrong dimwit. They are the effect of a breakdown in our immune system. It's been proven over and over again by other researchers in the literature you refuse to read.

Quack Quack Quack.

"Quack Quack Quack."


Posted by Ray

Wow.

The sad thing is:

This website is the best entertainment I can find.
Don't go all egotistical Rogers.

Wrong dimwit. They are the effect of a breakdown in our immune system. It's been proven over and over again by other researchers in the literature you refuse to read.

No, in "research" that you won't post because I won't read it. While I'm flattered, you should be posting it to back your position and make other's who may be lurking interested in believing what you have to say.

Post it. I'll read it. Seriously. It may take a few days since I'd have to do it during my glimpses of free time but I'll make an honest effort.


The big problem I have with what you say above is it completely neglects the massive amount of literature characterizing virulence factors of various bacteria and viruses. You make it seem as if bacteria/viruses only take hold when something within our system breaks. This is completely untrue and flies in the face of thousands of papers and probably millions of man hours of research.

Hell, there are even examples of pathogens that are non-pathogenic because they lack specific and well characterized virulence systems (a great example is E. coli) that are only found on specific extra-chromosomal DNA.

With one exception, not worth the time to respond to.

Because you have jack dick to say.

You spout the same unsupported stuff (by you since you won't post the literature that you claim exists) and simply ignore the stuff you can't respond to.

You spout the same unsupported stuff (by you since you won't post the literature that you claim exists) and simply ignore the stuff you can't respond to.

There you go again, with the same catch-22. If it's not supported by group think, you dismiss it as unsupported.

Try my link at #67, the one you ignored that you say I don't post.

Real critical thinkers, in the never ending search for truth, are always on the lookout to falsify their knowledge, not caring what their group thinks. Trained monkeys defend the status quo. They can't bear the thought of isolation from their group, no matter how absurd the falsehoods.

This website is the best entertainment I can find.
Don't go all egotistical Rogers.
#108 | POSTED BY ZATOICHI

Here's an example of the kind of monkeys I'm talking about.
First of all, he's a government bureaucrat, the model of conformity who live by peer pressure.
Second, he knows nothing about health, is morbidly obese, looks like a heart attack waiting to happen. Yet he mocks my emphasis on a healthy lifestyle.
Third, when earth is clearly in a cooling trend, he bought into the Al Gore crowd of global warming.
Forth, he can't argue, so he either cuts and pastes, or resorts to ad hominems. His inability to argue proves that he goes through life without thinking beyond what his group thinks.
JPW has many of the same traits.

" earth is clearly in a cooling trend "

nsidc.org

Not real bright are you Ray?

data.giss.nasa.gov

Plot of last 144 months with a linear fit.

i179.photobucket.com

Slope's positive.

Zat,

At best, global temps have flat-lined over the last decade, or so.

#114 | POSTED BY ZATOICHI AT 2009-11-06 08:21 AM | REPLY | FLAG: Government flunkie, cut and paster

The countless millions whose lives have been saved by modern medicine would beg to differ.-ZH
It's an archaic paradigm based on treating the symptoms of disease rather than the root cause of disease.-Ray

Yet another of Ray's trumphant achievements in the field of willful stupidity...

Why is it that you start rambling on about something entirely unrelated when I bring up a point that you cannot address rationally? Can't take the heat?

Medicine cannot replace the imbalances we introduce into our body's through poor diet and mental stress.

Of course, but a poor diet and mental stress are not the root cause of the overwhelming majority of illness. We're talking about infectious disease here.

Should vaccinations stop, I think you are going to find out a lot of stuff you don't want to know.

Foremost among them will be the realization that medicine has returned to the Dark Ages.

If it's not supported by group think, you dismiss it as unsupported.

If it's not supported by experimental evidence, you dismiss it as unsupported. What is so difficult about this concept, Ray?

Their evolution is unpredictable. You're dreaming. Healthy bodies can make antibodies on the spot.

I thought the chemical laboratory in your body spiel was a metaphor, but i'm beginning to doubt it. You say shit like this and then you want to tell me how the immune system works? What a fucking idiot.

We don't have enough vaccines either.

"They're more interested in tax cuts for the rich than for flu shots for everyone who needs them," Clinton railed Monday afternoon at a press conference at New York's Ryan/Chelsea-Clinton Community Health Center.


"If you can't get flu vaccines to Americans, how are you going to protect them against bioterrorism?'' Senator John Kerry, the Democratic presidential candidate, asked in an interview with National Public Radio. "If you can't get flu vaccines to Americans, what kind of health care program are you running?"..."

I thought the chemical laboratory in your body spiel was a metaphor, but i'm beginning to doubt it. You say shit like this and then you want to tell me how the immune system works? What a fucking idiot.
#118 | POSTED BY ZOMBIEHUNTER

It is a metaphor, asshole!

Foremost among them will be the realization that medicine has returned to the Dark Ages.

It's in the Dark Ages now. Establishment medicine has three methods: poison, cut or radiate. This is fucked up.

Yet another of Ray's trumphant achievements in the field of willful stupidity...

Zombie is expressing his willful ignorance. He's a trained monkey like JPW.

Of course, but a poor diet and mental stress are not the root cause of the overwhelming majority of illness. We're talking about infectious disease here.

Knows nothing about the effects of nutrition on disease. His ilk have to wait until people get sick. And how do they react? The thwart the body's normal healing process with more toxins.

I'm sorry to say ladies and gentlemen. Establishment medicine contributes to the decline health of Americans. Just look at the medical bills. They're consuming 15% of GNP. This is outrageous and criminal! They're getting away with killing tens of thousands of people every year.

OK ray, I read the mercola article.

First of all, I haven't read the background literature being cited, so I have no idea whether or not mercola is presenting it faithfully. Based on a quick look at the paper titles, I wonder if he has.

Second, have you read them? Or have you in all your critical thinking grandeur decided it's OK to accept mercola's interpretations without question?

Third, I notice that he only uses citations to support his buildups to major points and that his heavy hitting conclusions are often not well cited. For example:

It is also important to view this in the face of the new unpublished Canadian study of 12 million people that found getting the seasonal flu vaccine, as recommended by the CDC and NIH, doubles one's risk of developing the H1N1 infection. It would also make the infection much more serious. So much for expert advice from the government.

Really, citing an unpublished study? How did he have access to it if it's unpublished? Shady.

Then there's this:

The recently completed study on the effectiveness of the new H1N1 vaccine reported by the National Institute of Allergy and Infectious Disease found that 75% of small children below age 35 months received no protection from the H1N1 vaccine and that 65% of children between the ages of 3 years and 9 years received no protection from the vaccine.8

Citation number 8-

www3.niaid.nih.gov

No where that I can see states what he's saying that webpage says.

Or how about:

It is interesting to note that babies this age respond poorly to either the seasonal flu vaccine or the H1N1 vaccine. One of the largest studies ever done, found that children below the age of 2 years received no protection at all from the seasonal flu vaccine.7

Here's citation 7-

www.cochrane.org

While what he says is true, he neglects to mention the rest of what's stated in the abstract:

The review authors found that in children aged from two years, nasal spray vaccines made from weakened influenza viruses were better at preventing illness caused by the influenza virus (82% of illnesses were prevented) than injected vaccines made from the killed virus (59%)

Seems like both vaccines are pretty damn effective to me, which is quite the opposite of what he's trying to say in the entire article.

Zombie is expressing his willful ignorance. He's a trained monkey like JPW.

As opposed to you, the untrained monkey, who makes ridiculous unsupported statements but swears there's plenty of evidence to back it.

Also, your post 67 doesn't provide a shred of evidence to support your notion that good/bad nutrition is the root of all disease.

#121 | POSTED BY JPW
#122 | POSTED BY JPW
#123 | POSTED BY JPW

He evades like a Christian. No curiosity. No interest in understanding other points of view. Won't risk falsifying his beliefs. No pro-active effort. Can't reason on his own. Just a flat footed defender of the status quo who can't leave the safety of his group.
I don't know what else to add.

He evades like a Christian. No curiosity. No interest in understanding other points of view. Won't risk falsifying his beliefs. No pro-active effort. Can't reason on his own.

Says the person who's so hellbent on being contrary to everything.

Anyways. Why would I want to understand something based on erroneous information? Why would I be curious about pseudoscience? Do I lack curiosity because I don't care to listen how someone claims to turn lead to gold?

If you pointed out a single study showing nutrition and natural remedies to be on the level you claim them to be, Ray, I'd be more than willing to admit I was wrong. However, you continue to post things that are based on various levels of misinformation and make their arguments solely against vaccinations, not FOR nutrition or natural remedies.

As for reasoning on my own-I seem quite capable of spotting the bullshit for what it is. You, however, are interested only in believing anything and everything that justifies your views against government, regardless of what it says (so much for being an expert critical thinker).

Just a flat footed defender of the status quo who can't leave the safety of his group.

And you seem to be an unstable minded contrarian who does anything to remain separate from the group.

I don't know what else to add.

Nothing. You've been so thoroughly bitch slapped I'm surprised you still respond.

You've been so thoroughly bitch slapped I'm surprised you still respond.

I enjoy picking you and Zombie apart. Looking forward to the next encounter.

Interpol: Bioterrorism Tabletop Exercise


So yes, it is a conspiracy theory if you're somehow trying to insinuate that this is a case of biowarfare.

The plot thickens on #13 jpw's claim.

Of course, recall Joseph Moshe, confirmed microbiologist who predicted a bioterrorism deadly virus pandemic release by Baxter in the Ukraine [announced by guest relaying Joseph's call-in to Dr True Ott's radio show two months before current events. But let's let it play out before making 100% determination.

Here's the related story:
LA $300K Arrest Falsely Reported As Threatening White House

Moshe:Flu Vaccine BioWeapon

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