Drudge Retort: Red Meat for Yellow Dogs

SANTA MONICA, Calif. October 28, 2009 Edmunds.com, the premier resource for online automotive information, has determined that Cash for Clunkers cost taxpayers $24,000 per vehicle sold.

Liberal Blog Advertising Network

Menu

Subscriptions

Author Info

JOE

MORE STORIES

Special Features

Comments

Admin's note: Participants in the discussion of this weblog entry should note the site's moderation policy.

Gobama!

Joe, get ready to explain this to Danforth. I tried yesterday.

I'm not going to waste my time explaining anything to that hack.

The GDP "growth" was ALL really just a govt loan using our tax dollars on CFC and Home Buy credits but do not expect the Messiah to come clean there.

Of course who can blame him when his temple is being destroyed before his eyes.

I didn't know there was already a thread on this. My bad.

I didn't know there was already a thread on this. My bad.
#5 | Posted by JOE

Aside from the fact that there's a wealth of stuff you just don't know, Joe, we have something else to content with here. Oh, horror or horrors, perhaps perhaps, Joe -- using your own idiotic, self-serving "standard" for poster legitimacy -- a case of an incredibly stoopid move on your part to have posted this "story" in the first place, thereby calling your judgment, credibility, and worthiness as a member of the species into question because the White House has fired back hard on this "study." (You can claim they have a dog in the fight, but, then, so do those you've cited, the ones who conducted the "study" [in quotes here, since its legitimacy is now seriously questioned].)

BUSY COVERING CAR SALES ON MARS, EDMUNDS.COM GETS IT WRONG (AGAIN) ON CASH FOR CLUNKERS

On the same day that we found out that motor vehicle output added 1.7% to economic growth in the third quarter the largest contribution to quarterly growth in over a decade Edmunds.com has released a faulty analysis suggesting that the Cash for Clunkers program had no meaningful impact on our economy or on overall auto sales. This is the latest of several critical "analyses" of the Cash for Clunkers program from Edmunds.com, which appear designed to grab headlines and get coverage on cable TV. Like many of their previous attempts, this latest claim doesn't withstand even basic scrutiny.

The Edmunds analysis is based on two implausible assumptions:

1. The Edmunds' analysis rests on the assumption that the market for cars that didn't qualify for Cash for Clunkers was completely unaffected by this program.

In other words, all the other cars were being sold on Mars, while the rest of the country was caught up in the excitement of the Cash for Clunkers program. This analysis ignores not only the price impacts that a program like Cash for Clunkers has on the rest of the vehicle market, but the reports from across the country that people were drawn into dealerships by the Cash for Clunkers program and ended up buying cars even though their old car was not eligible for the program.

This faulty assumption leads Edmunds to a conclusion that is at odds with many independent analyses: Edmunds assumption that more than 80% of the payback from Cash for Clunkers would occur in 2009 isn't how many mainstream analyses, including Moody's and IHS Global Insight approach the problem (see pages 5 and 15 of this CEA report [PDF]). In fact, Deutsche Bank recently concluded that "The important takeaway from recent sales trends is that it suggests that there has been minimal 'payback' for the U.S. government's 'cash for clunkers' program."

(Continued...)

Concluded:

2. Edmunds also ignores the beneficial impact that the program will have on 4th Quarter GDP because automakers have ramped up their production to rebuild their depleted inventories.

Major automakers including GM, Ford, Honda and Chrysler all increased their production through the end of the year as a result of this program, which will help boost growth beyond the third quarter. The actions of private market participants, who would not increase production if they didn't think demand for their product would be there through the end of the year, is a far better indicator of market dynamics and one that Edmunds.com conveniently ignores.

Most importantly, this program is helping boost our economy and create jobs now when we need it most. In a comprehensive report, the Council of Economic Advisers estimated that the Cash for Clunkers will create 70,000 jobs in the second half of 2009. The strength of recent auto sales data suggest that, if anything, this projection underestimates the actual impact of the program. CEA's analysis is transparent and comprehensive, laying out all of its assumptions for the public to understand. Edmunds.com, on the other hand, is promoting a bombastic press release without any public access to their underlying analysis.

So put on your space suit and compare the two approaches yourself:

Edmunds.com [www.edmunds.com]
Council of Economic Advisors [www.whitehouse.gov]
www.whitehouse.gov

Sarvis, you could have saved the time and effort. We all knew you would be along today with the Shepards talking points.


Doc the Debunker..... good job!

Oops.
~Joe
Apprentice Junior Trainee's Apprentice Assistant
LegalZoom.com Phone Bank
Mumbai Office #3

#8 | Posted by wisgod

Your blinkers are holding up well, Wussy, despite the harsh light of reality. But, what the hell, go ahead a tell the manufacturer at WeCountOnIdiots.com that you'd like to provide them with an endorsement. You'll have to adjust the volume, though, because you still sound like a wheezing douchebagpipe entry at the Highland Games.

Jobs created by the white house are good for at least 3 months.

Doc,

No one has debunked the numbers, the calculation is correct is phrased properly.

You could come out with your own study about jobs, and yada yada yada, but you have not debunked the numbers.

Your quote starts with this...
1. The Edmunds' analysis rests on the assumption that the market for cars that didn't qualify for Cash for Clunkers was completely unaffected by this program.

and ends with this..

Edmunds.com, on the other hand, is promoting a bombastic press release without any public access to their underlying analysis.

In otherwords, we don't have access to their analysis methods, and their wrong anyway.

Got it..

Your blinkers are holding up well, Wussy, despite the harsh light of reality.
Posted by Doc_Sarvis

LOL. Without the Clunker program, nobody would have bought a new vehicle during that timeframe. OK Doc, I certainly understand your arguement.

Without the Clunker program, nobody would have bought a new vehicle during that timeframe. OK Doc, I certainly understand your arguement.
#14 | Posted by wisgod

Didn't Doc show that the program increased new vehicle purchases even beyond those that qualified for the program?

So they bought a car anyway after there trade-in didn't qualify and that was all due to this program? WOW.

Starvis-

So what? Edmunds responded to the white house press release.

Edmunds.com Responds to White House Comments on Cash for Clunkers Analysis

SANTA MONICA, Calif. October 29, 2009 Today the Department of Transportation and White House chose to respond to an analysis Edmunds.com released Wednesday that looked at auto sales this year and what sales volumes would have been had the popular Cash for Clunkers program never existed.

At issue is one point of the analysis showing the taxpayer cost for every incremental vehicle sold was $24,000. To be clear, Edmunds.com is not disputing the government's statements regarding total voucher applications, vehicles sold or voucher values. The key question is how many of these sales would have occurred anyway.

Apparently, the $24,000 figure caught many by surprise. It shouldn't have. The truth is that consumer incentive programs are always hugely expensive when calculated by incremental sales always in the tens of thousands of dollars. Cash for Clunkers was no exception.

The White House claims that our analysis was based on car sales on Mars and that on Earth, the marketplace is connected. We agree the marketplace is connected. In fact, that is exactly the basis of our analysis.

Continued...

As for helping the auto industry, the proof will be whether Mr. LaHood's jump start to sales is sustainable. The idea that a temporary subsidy program will launch the auto industry onto some new, higher sales and production plane defies logic. More likely, the program will merely have concentrated sales over a shorter period, as buyers either postponed purchases once they learned the program was in the works, or accelerated them to meet the subsidy deadline. The program is another bow to the now-reigning Washington policy illusion that the key to prosperity is force-feeding consumer spending, rather than creating incentives for Americans to invest and take risks.

We keep hearing this is a brave new era of public confidence in the virtues of government planning. But the lesson of cash for clunkers is that if this government can't manage a free lunch, it can hardly be trusted to decide whether you can have a hip replacement, and how much it will pay for it.
online.wsj.com

How were those consumer spending numbers released today?

It is also claimed we missed the possibility that Cash for Clunkers generated excitement and consumers bought vehicles even if they didn't qualify for the program -- a claim that has been widely supported by anecdote but by little analysis. It does, after all, seem a bit odd that masses of consumers would elect to buy a vehicle because of a program for which they don't qualify -- doubly so when you add in the fact that prices shot up during Cash for Clunkers, creating a disincentive to buy.

Finally, the White House claims that the increase in fourth-quarter production reported by the car manufacturers can be attributed to Cash for Clunkers. But here is a better reason: the economy is recovering accompanied by improved car sales. No manufacturer increases production -- a decision with long-term consequences -- based on the 30-day sales blip triggered by an event like Cash for Clunkers.

With all respect to the White House, Edmunds.com thinks that instead of shooting the messenger, government officials should take heart from the core message of the analysis: the fundamentals of the auto marketplace are improving faster than the current sales numbers suggest.

Isn't this a piece of good news we can all cheer?
www.edmunds.com

So they bought a car anyway after there trade-in didn't qualify and that was all due to this program? WOW.
#16 | Posted by wisgod

He showed that the increase in purchases was greater than the amount that qualified for the program, so yes, he could certainly argue that the extra increase was due to the program.

Didn't Doc show that the program increased new vehicle purchases even beyond those that qualified for the program?

No. He alleged that it did, with no numbers to back it up.

"The key question is how many of these sales would have occurred anyway."

And in the Op-Ed, the head of Edmunds claimed the average was 60,000-70,000 a month. That would total about 110,000 during the 1,8 months CARS was in existence. Instead, there were 690,000 sold.

That's $5,200 per car.

"The idea that a temporary subsidy program will launch the auto industry onto some new, higher sales and production plane defies logic. More likely, the program will merely have concentrated sales over a shorter period, as buyers either postponed purchases once they learned the program was in the works, or accelerated them to meet the subsidy deadline."

Exactly. And that's why I've been against the CfC program since the start. Well, that, and the fact it's just blowing cash.

He showed that the increase in purchases was greater than the amount that qualified for the program, so yes, he could certainly argue that the extra increase was due to the program.

#20 | Posted by Hagbard_Celine
So they wouldn't have bought them if there was no program? Well, that makes sarvis sense.

No one has debunked the numbers, the calculation is correct is [if?] phrased properly.
#13 | Posted by AndreaMackris

So is the statement that "5 + 3 = 2" if "phrased" so that "2 = the sum of 9 - 1."


So what?
#17 | Posted by JOE

Tell the pit boss at LegalBoomerang.com's Mumbai Phone Bank #3 that you just got hoisted skyward on your own petard, Blackstone.

Starvis, I know you're anxious to debunk something I've posted since you got owned on the fake Scalia story, but honestly, give it a rest. You come off like such a douchebag.

"So they wouldn't have bought them if there was no program?"

The argument is that it got them in the door sooner than they would if the program was not incentivizing potential buyers to come in.

"You come off like such a douchebag."

Come off as one? This decrepit old bastard attacked you after apologizing for not knowing there was already another thread.

"since you got owned on the fake Scalia story"

Huh?

Doc posted what the Arizona paper printed, and then commented -- in good faith -- based on the mistake of the reporter.

The screw-up wasn't Doc's, it was the newspaper eager to portray Scalia in a bad light. Once the truth came out, he apologized.

Doc posted what the Arizona paper printed, and then commented -- in good faith -- based on the mistake of the reporter.

You don't know that he commented in good faith. I contend that anyone with a brain would have done a little googling to verify the story, which was easily refutable.

I haven't lied about Scalia, you boob. I linked the story, which turns out to be a piss poor job of reporting on the reporter's part. Please, try not to fall into the trap of assuming that because someone posts a story on the DR they are vouching for it and/or it represents their personal view.


It was posted in good faith in the hope of creating an opportunity for discussion. However, the story misquotes Scalia, someone evidently switching Brown and Plessy.


Now, please, do yourself a favor; unwad your pantaloons and see if your voice drops a couple of octaves back into the normal range for prepubescent males.

#116 | Posted by Doc_Sarvis at 2009-10-27 03:40 PM |
This is the old bastards apology? By blaming it on someone else for his own laziness to vet a story before linking? Then attacking posters pointing out his gaffe? Point out where he apologized for anything. He never acknowledged his own error. Oh that's right, it happened to be a story about Scalia and he was doing everyone here a favor by linking it for discussion. RIGHT!!!!!!!

"You don't know that he commented in good faith."

His comments occurred before your correction.

"I contend that anyone with a brain would have done a little googling to verify the story"

Who immediately googles every newspaper article for accuracy? And when did that become the barometer around here?

"for his own laziness to vet a story before linking?"

Then who do we blame for not doing the math on the Cash for Clunkers $24K claim?

"I haven't lied about Scalia, you boob"

Neither did I, you feckless blob of human detritus. I posted a story -- just as you did here. The story in my case was debunked. The story in your case is under serious attack for touting a "study" with dubious methodology. If I should've been smart enough to know that Scalia -- a notorious, misanthropic windbag -- didn't say something as stupid in that instance as he's fully capable of saying, that's not my fault. It's not your fault that the methodology of the "study" you've posted is questionable. You should've known better, of course (by your "standards"), but you didn't.

The so called analysis goes along the same lines as the other programs Obama keeps coming out and touting as "success" only to later have it all debunked by REAL numbers.


Think, jobs "saved" or created.......HC.......Now GDP "growth".......unemployment figures........

All of them are based on loans to the govt by us the taxpayers and all are failing thus far. It is not about us it IS about them and control.

The lengths they will go to to try and lie to America knows no bounds.


"for his own laziness to vet a story before linking?"


Then who do we blame for not doing the math on the Cash for Clunkers $24K claim?

Consider the sources. Does Joe go out of his way to rip on someone who puts up a skewed article as a new thread? Because we all know what a fucking asshole the old bastard is when he sees any mistakes. Right??? Would Joe reply with this, if father time ever, ever admitted he errored?


I didn't know there was already a thread on this. My bad.
#5 | Posted by JOE


Aside from the fact that there's a wealth of stuff you just don't know, Joe, we have something else to content with here. Oh, horror or horrors, perhaps perhaps, Joe -- using your own idiotic, self-serving "standard" for poster legitimacy -- a case of an incredibly stoopid move on your part to have posted this "story" in the first place, thereby calling your judgment, credibility, and worthiness as a member of the species into question

Who immediately googles every newspaper article for accuracy? And when did that become the barometer around here?

Nobody said you have to google every newspaper article for accuracy. Some articles contain more outlandish claims than others.

"Does Joe go out of his way to rip on someone who puts up a skewed article as a new thread? "

Um...it looks like he did. Isn't that proof enough?


"I haven't lied about Scalia, you boob"


Neither did I, you feckless blob of human detritus. I posted a story -- just as you did here


Dumb ass doesn't even remember what he posted. That was your post idiot. Who in the hell are you arguing with now? Yourself? Senile old fart blames Joe for his own brain farts.

I haven't lied about Scalia, you boob.
#116 | Posted by Doc_Sarvis at 2009-10-27 03:40 PM |

"It is also claimed we missed the possibility that Cash for Clunkers generated excitement and consumers bought vehicles even if they didn't qualify for the program -- a claim that has been widely supported by anecdote but by little analysis."

LOL. What cracks me up is that people will claim to believe this with a straight face and the fucking balls to expect everyone else not to laugh at them for being idiots.

"Some articles contain more outlandish claims than others."

Yeah, like $24K per car.

You mean you didn't read the op-ed, and then do the math?

I'm just looking for one set of rules here: either the poster is responsible for the factuality of the article, or they aren't. If you blame Doc for someone else's shoddy reporting, don't you deserve blame for someone else's shoddy math?

Don't get me wrong...I don't think either of you are to blame. Authors bear the responsibility, not the posters.

#31 | Posted by crispee_oc


Oh, goodness, punchdrunk Joe Palooka staggers into the ring after the asskicking he took yesterday -- and about which, as usual, he cannot help but focus and bore the knickers off one and all for a day or so after his thrashing -- to comment on something he knows even less about than he does about boxing.

"...blaming it [a reporter's fuck up] on someone else for his own laziness to vet a story before linking?"

Yeah, Palooka, that's what posters on the DR do: run a string of fact checkers to make sure that each and every story that's picked up off the wires or an otherwise reputable site is meticulously fact checked. You do that every time you start a thread, don't you? Personally, I'm shocked -- yes, shocked -- that a story posted on the DR was, after its posting, demonstrated to be in error. What's next, pookie? Gambling in "Rick's Cafe American"?

"Then attacking posters pointing out his gaffe?"

Palooka, try and keep up with the herd, make a decent effort to get up to speed for chrissakes. What I answered were claims by the likes of Quck On The Trigger But Slooooow To Comprehend Joe Blackstone that my credibility sucks because a reporter screwed up. That you can't figure that out, or understand it, is simply indicative of your status as a punchdrunk imbiber in brews you have no business being around.

"He never acknowledged his own error."

You, Palooka, are a liar.

It was posted in good faith in the hope of creating an opportunity for discussion. However, the story misquotes Scalia, someone evidently switching Brown and Plessy.
#116 | Posted by Doc_Sarvis

As I say, Palooka, you're a liar. Now, do yourself a favor: Stop making a fool of yourself -- we already know you're a perfect fit in that category -- and go back and find some moron who wants to listen to your lies about matters pugilistic.


You mean you didn't read the op-ed, and then do the math?

The op-ed you refer to is not contained in the article I posted. It's also not something that comes up when I google "$24,000 cash for clunkers" which I actually did before posting this article. Most articles that came up contained the white house response and Edmunds' subsequent reply, nothing about the 60-70K math you are referencing.

Dumb ass doesn't even remember what he posted. That was your post idiot. Who in the hell are you arguing with now? Yourself? Senile old fart blames Joe for his own brain farts.


I haven't lied about Scalia, you boob.
#116 | Posted by Doc_Sarvis at 2009-10-27 03:40 PM |

#39 | Posted by crispee_oc

When you figure out what it is you're trying to say, Palooka, find someone who knows what they're doing to see if they can translate into understandable, coherent English.

Every time you jump in like this all you do is make a fool of yourself, get yourself lathered up to the point where you feel you have to keep gnawing on a word-bone for a day or two, until whatever chemicals the people at the home use to keep you in check take hold. Don't worry, it can't be long now before your nap, oldtimer.

#43 | Posted by JOE

Sorry, Joe. But Joe says it's still your fault.
~Joe

The other day Fact Checker Joe posted a link proving that the Obama administration was still raiding medical marijuana shops in California. Unfortunately for Fact Checker Joe, the article was about a raid in 2008.

#42...

Look at that. Doc takes the time to write a long retort about his stupid boxing analogy and completely ignores his ultimate fuck up of pasting his own words to someone else. Wouldn't that be a delfection to your own stupidity Doc? Or are you still ignorant to not knowing it was YOU who posted that line I pasted, hence your stupid #34 post? Doesn't matter though, I think everyone who reads it knows you fucked up. They pretty much expect you to ignore and attack anyone who pointed it out. They also don't expect you to have an ounce of integrity to apologize for your gaffe.

"When you figure out what it is you're trying to say, Palooka, find someone who knows what they're doing to see if they can translate into understandable, coherent English."


This old fuck still hasn't figured it out. Keep digging old man. I enjoy that hole getting bigger and bigger every time you open your toothless mouth.

"Most articles that came up contained the white house response and Edmunds' subsequent reply, nothing about the 60-70K math you are referencing."

Gee...so you didn't go back to the original op-ed to fact check? A simple google search would've done the trick.

"on July 27, Edmunds.com published an analysis showing that in any given month 60,000 to 70,000 "clunker-like" deals happen with no government program in place."
online.wsj.com

Therefore, by your own standards, you're to blame...right?

I enjoy that hole getting bigger and bigger every time you open your toothless mouth.
#48 | Posted by crispee_oc | Flag: Trying Out New Pick-Up Lines


"I haven't lied about Scalia, you boob"


Neither did I, you feckless blob of human detritus. I posted a story -- just as you did here. The story in my case was debunked. The story in your case is under serious attack for touting a "study" with dubious methodology. If I should've been smart enough to know that Scalia -- a notorious, misanthropic windbag -- didn't say something as stupid in that instance as he's fully capable of saying, that's not my fault. It's not your fault that the methodology of the "study" you've posted is questionable. You should've known better, of course (by your "standards"), but you didn't.

#34 | Posted by Doc_Sarvis at 2009-10-30 11:07 AM

Just curious why you said "neither did I" to a paste you fucking wrote? Also who were you speaking of when you wrote "I posted a story, just as you did"? Was it Joe who didn't write the sentence you referred to? Was it me who pasted the sentence that you wrote? Help up out here. Seems like you ignorantly fucked up on a few occasions in one retort. Right???

LOL. What cracks me up is that people will claim to believe this with a straight face and the fucking balls to expect everyone else not to laugh at them for being idiots.

#40 | Posted by Sully

No shit. I'll bet Sarvis is a coupon saver who also goes to the store and never uses them. The Coupons are just an incentive for Sarvis to make the fucking trip and pay more.

The other day Fact Checker Joe posted a link proving that the Obama administration was still raiding medical marijuana shops in California.

I posted several other links to raids that did occur during the Obama administration.

Gee...so you didn't go back to the original op-ed to fact check?

How would anyone know about an "original op ed?" The article I posted doesn't reference an "original op ed." It contains its own content.

Fact is, the content in Starvis' article was extremely questionable on its own. You're taking my ripping on that beyond the realm of logic if you're going to suggest I should have examined information that was not even referenced in my article.

And there's a reason you're doing it, Mr. Moderate.

No shit. I'll bet Sarvis is a coupon saver who also goes to the store and never uses them. The Coupons are just an incentive for Sarvis to make the fucking trip and pay more.

#52 | Posted by wisgod at 2009-10-30 11:38 AM


www.wanzl.com

"How would anyone know about an "original op ed?" "

Maybe the same way someone would know the Arizona paper had reported erroneously.

"Fact is, the content in Starvis' article was extremely questionable on its own."

Fact is, the content in your article was extremely questionable on its own.

"And there's a reason you're doing it, Mr. Moderate."

And what would that be, Mr. Hypocrite?

Watching the Libbies defend this horse shit day after day is going to take a toll. 3 years and 2 months to go, girls.

Do we know exactly how many cars were sold ON THE PROGRAM? Do we know exactly how much money was credited out for these purchases?

"you're going to suggest I should have examined information that was not even referenced in my article."

Huh? The Edmunds guy claimed it was only 125,000 more cars than average. Wouldn't that lead you to factcheck the average?

Maybe the same way someone would know the Arizona paper had reported erroneously.

All it took to prove that article wrong was a google news search and a click on the first article that came up. I already told you I did the same for this article and there was no reference to a previous op-ed in the results.

Fact is, the content in your article was extremely questionable on its own.

And not as easily verifiable as false as the information in Starvis' article.

Face it Danforth. You're a tool for Starvis, and nothing more. The only thing he had to do was find out - "did Scalia say this? or not?" Meanwhile, you're saying I had to find old op-eds that aren't even referenced when a search of the terms in this article is performed. Give it up. You're a tool.

"I already told you I did the same for this article and there was no reference to a previous op-ed in the results."

Oh....so now your barometer is just the first page of the Google search, and not the facts themselves. Got it.

"And not as easily verifiable as false as the information in Starvis' article."

Oh...so now your barometer is the relative ease of discovering the facts. Got it.

"Face it Danforth. You're a tool for Starvis, and nothing more. "

WTF are you talking about? You claimed he was "owned" for posting someone else's error. All I did was point out is if that's your barometer, you're a hypocrite, and a lazy one at that.

Oh....so now your barometer is just the first page of the Google search, and not the facts themselves.

No, that is not the barometer. Try not to make things up.

Facts are these. I said Starvis should have known the Scalia quote was nonsense because it was questionable to begin with, and the fact that it was wrong was very easy to find.

I'll even grant you that the former can be said about the article I've posted. But the latter, no. So it's not comparable.

"But the latter, no."

So you're claiming it didn't pass the smell test, but you couldn't be bothered with finding out why?

I come here for the comedy.

So you're claiming it didn't pass the smell test, but you couldn't be bothered with finding out why

No. Another lie. I'm claiming that if something is questionable and you don't even make a minimal effort to find out the facts, then you are subject to criticism when the truth comes out. Claiming I should have found old op-eds that aren't referenced in a simple search because I criticized someone for missing something that was referenced in a simple search is ludicrous. End of story.

"I'm claiming that if something is questionable and you don't even make a minimal effort to find out the facts, then you are subject to criticism when the truth comes out. "

Okay, then since you admitted in #63 "it was questionable to begin with", you're guilty. End of story.

You're forgetting the second part of the analysis, that being the fact that I did make a minimal effort.

The underlying question regarding Scalia was "did he say it or not?"

The underlying question regarding the $24K claim was "is his math right?"

You admitted "it was questionable to begin with", yet when a "simple search" didn't answer the question, you posted it anyway.

It's no mistake that you left that out. Fuck off, Danforth. You are the most intentionally ignorant person on earth.

"You admitted "it was questionable to begin with"

No. I granted you that for the sake of argument.

I performed my due diligence. Nothing came up that directly debunked this article. Something did come up that directly debunked Starvis'. If you can't see the difference, then you're a hack. But I didn't need this thread to know that.

"I did make a minimal effort."

"Minimal" being the operative word. You didn't even bother to answer your own question.

Per #63 and #70, it was not my question.

"No. I granted you that for the sake of argument."

Um, that's an admission, counselor. If you will, you stipulated to it.

"I performed my due diligence."

Due dilligence?!? You posted:
"All it took to prove that article wrong was a google news search and a click on the first article that came up. I already told you I did the same for this article and there was no reference to a previous op-ed in the results.

So you went to the first article, and no further. And it still didn't answer the basic question, yet you stopped there. And you're calling that "due dilligence"?!?

I have to go...I'm laughing too hard.

The argument is that it got them in the door sooner than they would if the program was not incentivizing potential buyers to come in.

#27 | Posted by Hagbard_Celine at 2009-10-30 10:43 AM

That is purely speculative, but gives a warm fuzzy feeling so I can see why the average O'tard would buy it.

Starvis is going to be stinging over the fact Joe called him out for quite some while. That thinned skinned little bitch just doesn't like to be corrected.


You've got to love people taking the White House's obvious propaganda as fact.

"Um, that's an admission, counselor. If you will, you stipulated to it."

Granting for the sake of argument is necessary when dealing with a hack like you. Limiting the conversation to one issue instead of two makes it easier to get things through to your peabrain. Granting for the sake of argument is not the same as admitting that something is in fact true. Again, something you know, but are pretending not to. See a pattern?

I have to go...I'm laughing too hard.


#73 | Posted by Danforth at 2009-10-30 12:35 PM | Reply


Don't go now Danforth, I still need you!

-Starvis

"So you went to the first article, and no further"

I went to the first article for the search on Scalia - which directly refuted Starvis' article. I went through a few more for my own, and saw no reference to what you're claiming I should have known. Again - you are ignorant. Not my problem.

It's speculative both ways.

I have a hard time believing the increase minus the C4C sales would have been as large as they were without some incentive to go to the dealership.

I also have a hard time believing they were all due to C4C getting them in the door.

But the partisan advantage of it is more important truth.

THAN

"I said Starvis should have known the Scalia quote was nonsense because it was questionable to begin with, and the fact that it was wrong was very easy to find. I'll even grant you that the former can be said about the article I've posted."

So you granted the article was "questionable" to begin with.

What "question" did you have, and how did you answer that question before posting?

"Again - you are ignorant."

Because I knew what you didn't? You're a hoot.

Granting that the article is questionable for the sake of argument, to limit the number of points we argue, is not the same as admitting that I found the material in the article to be questionable. Again, this is something you know, but pretend not to. Why?

"Granting that the article is questionable for the sake of argument, to limit the number of points we argue, is not the same as admitting that I found the material in the article to be questionable."

Is this how you argue in court?

Why did you grant the article was "questionable", if you didn't find any of the material "questionable"?

And since you admitted you Googled to find out more, what were you trying to find out?

Is this how you argue in court?

I've never dealt with someone as willfully ignorant as you in court. So, no.

Why did you grant the article was "questionable", if you didn't find any of the material "questionable"?

To limit the number of issues I'd argue about (and, I had hoped, the time I'd spend) with you.

And since you admitted you Googled to find out more, what were you trying to find out?

Anything that might tend to elaborate upon or refute the numbers offered in my article.


I'm not going to waste my time explaining anything to that hack.

#3 | Posted by JOE at 2009-10-30 08:39 AM | Reply | Flag: UNLESS OF COURSE HE POSTS



85 later.........


Good point. I'm out.

From the article on Mysterytoy's thread...Jeremy Anwyl, Edmunds' CEO, wrote an op-ed for the Wall Street Journal Aug. 3 pointed out that in any month there are 60,000 to 70,000 "clunker-like" sales

Dan-o...it clearly sez "clunker-like" sales..NOT total sales...you're being misleading...

"I've never dealt with someone as willfully ignorant as you in court."

Too funny. You're calling me "ignorant" for knowing something you didn't.

"Anything that might tend to elaborate upon or refute the numbers offered in my article."

Ahhh...but nothing to prove the claims were correct.

So you hold Doc to a standard you don't hold to yourself.

Got it.

"Dan-o...it clearly sez "clunker-like" sales..NOT total sales...you're being misleading..."

Then find the math that backs up the guy's claim. So far, all we have is a 125,000 number pulled out of thin air. 690K sold. No one, anywhere, has claimed it would have been 565K otherwise.

That's what Edmunds is saying.

"That's what Edmunds is saying."

Where? Link, please. And not just to the 125,000 claim. The 565K claim.

Danforth bogarts another thread...

"White House Blog Whines About Edmunds's C4C $24K/Car Claim, Ignores Current Consequences"

newsbusters.org


Danforth bogarts another thread...

#93 | Posted by wisgod at 2009-10-30 03:00 PM |

You can smell his stench all the way on the other threads.

Help up out here.
#51 | Posted by crispee_oc

Gotta love it, the way losers like Crispee Palooka and Minmal Effort Joe spend a day screwing around with yesterday's argument. There's no way they even begin to realize what objects of ridicule they've become.

Help up out here.

I have to assume that after they take an asskicking on Thursday they just can't keep themselves from tossing and turning, crying in their pillows, kneading their blankies, and changing their pantaloons frequently and spend seemingly endless hours of the long, dark night trying to think things through to see if there's any way they can come up with something riveting about a topic nobody really cares about half-a-day later.

"Help me out here..."

...the tiny voice of Crispee "I Coulda Been a Contendah" Palooka calls out. Frankly, I'd love to throw you a rope, Palook, but you've dug yourself in so deep into the Well of Stoopidity I don't think it would do any good.

Help up out here.

Normally, I'd cut you a break, show a little pity for one so clearly in need, and suggest you see if "Minimal Effort" Joe might be of some help but near as I can tell he's busy, adrift without a compass on the Sea of Confusion.

Help up out here.

Oh, poor witto fella.

Help up out here.

*Sniff*

Where? Link, please. And not just to the 125,000 claim. The 565K claim.

#92 | Posted by Danforth at 2009-10-30 02:57 PM | Reply | Flag

Dan-O...you can do math...if they're stating that the sales were only 125k more than usual, then, by default, there would have been 565k sold, without the stimulus.

Which, BTW, is the gist of their statement.

"Dan-O...you can do math"

Yes, I can. And this math stinks. Like I said, get the numbers together, and then conclude. Was the average 565K? If so, when? And is anyone really stupid enough to pretend July 2009 would otherwise been an average month for sales?

Again...this doesn't pass the smell test. You're going to have to prove the claims, and not just by taking one person's word.

"...the tiny voice of Crispee "I Coulda Been a Contendah" Palooka calls out. Frankly, I'd love to throw you a rope, Palook, but you've dug yourself in so deep into the Well of Stoopidity I don't think it would do any good."



You have to feel sorry for drunk dwarfs like doc. What else can be said by someone who argues with himself and calls himself a feckless blob of human detritus...

Neither did I, you feckless blob of human detritus. I posted a story -- just as you did here. The story in my case was debunked. The story in your case is under serious attack for touting a "study" with dubious methodology. If I should've been smart enough to know that Scalia -- a notorious, misanthropic windbag -- didn't say something as stupid in that instance as he's fully capable of saying, that's not my fault. It's not your fault that the methodology of the "study" you've posted is questionable. You should've known better, of course (by your "standards"), but you didn't.


#34 | Posted by Doc_Sarvis at 2009-10-30 11:07 AM


Just curious why you said "neither did I" to a paste you fucking wrote? Also who were you speaking of when you wrote "I posted a story, just as you did"? Was it Joe who didn't write the sentence you referred to? Was it me who pasted the sentence that you wrote? Help up out here. Seems like you ignorantly fucked up on a few occasions in one retort. Right???

#51 | Posted by crispee_oc at 2009-10-30 11:36 AM | Reply

And is anyone really stupid enough to pretend July 2009 would otherwise been an average month for sales?


I'm sure it would NOT have been an average season, Dan-O..but I'm also fairly certain that there would not have been 0 sales, either.

Truth of the matter is, there's no substitute for self-reliance. Buy stuff, if you're able, don't, if you can't.

From my point of view, I see the Democrats as being fully engaged in using the power of the federal government to buy/sway votes in an effort to buy enough influence to stay in power in perpetuity....

and as fucked up as the Republican party is...I know there's NO WAY you can claim that, in reverse...

"I'm sure it would NOT have been an average season, Dan-O..but I'm also fairly certain that there would not have been 0 sales, either.

Okay...so where is the number for the averages, and what number do you actually believe would have been sold otherwise? And where is the math? All we have, is one CEO who seemingly pulled a number out of thin air. And the only numbers he quoted were 60K-70K.

"as fucked up as the Republican party is...I know there's NO WAY you can claim that, in reverse..."

You're joking, right? Republicans wouldn't use the power of the government to buy influence?!? That was the whole idea behind tax cuts for the wealthiest.

On topic. I've been against CfC since the outset, and have never stated otherwise. But $24,000 per car doesn't pass the smell test.

Does it to you?


All we have, is one CEO who seemingly pulled a number out of thin air. And the only numbers he quoted were 60K-70K.

What he said was that in any given month, there were 60/70k "clunker-like" sales. I have bought cars without negotiating the price off the top, but off the bottom. Specifically, getting way more for my trade-in than it was worth. A fairly common practice, I believe. One that would fit his description. According to the sales chart on the linked page, there were 2.25 million total sales,(during July and August) of which 690k were apparently eligible for the C4C program. What Edmunds is stating, is out of those 690K, 565K would have been sold anyways.





That was the whole idea behind tax cuts for the wealthiest.

I'm fairly certain the majority of the wealthiest are already on the side of the Repubs, Dan.


But $24,000 per car doesn't pass the smell test.


Does it to you?

Even the $4500 each, out of the taxpayers pockets, stinks, to me...

"I'm fairly certain the majority of the wealthiest are already on the side of the Repubs, Dan."

So? You think that means there is no need to "buy/sway votes"?!?

"What Edmunds is stating, is out of those 690K, 565K would have been sold anyways."

In what...an average month?

How about this: show me the comparable sales -- 565K -- for the prior month.

"How about this: show me the comparable sales -- 565K -- for the prior month."

Here...I'll help. It looks like the second quarter averaged 4.5, and the 1.8 months of CfC averaged more than 7:

online.wsj.com

That 565k is for nearly two months, Dan-O...and it's (apparently) only vehicles that qualified for C4C...

Actual sales volumes are given on the afforementioned chart.

"Actual sales volumes are given on the afforementioned chart."

Okay, but you've got to believe the relative numbers are there. It's a 55% average increase in sales over the prior quarter.

690K / 155 = 4452

4452 x 55 = 244,860 additional sales, based on sales from the previous quarter.

All of a sudden, it's more like $12,000 per car.

Like I've said, the math stinks from Edmunds. Methinks there's an agenda.

Methinks there's an agenda.

Methinks there are agendas anywhere there are people...

Wouldn't you admit, looking at the chart, the CfC months (July/August) were roughly 55% higher than the previous quarter?

"Even the $4500 each, out of the taxpayers pockets, stinks, to me..."

I agree. Have since the start.

DAN-
I'm not challenging your figures. I'm just wondering whether comparing a quarter to the previous quarter is the most accurate measurement or whether you need to look at historical context.

Look at years past and see the difference between the second and third quarters. I suspect that with new cars coming out you'd see a bump in September sales each year. So a bump might be expected. Is that factored into your calculation?

In other words, might EVERY year see a similar bump in sales from the second to the third quarter? If that's the case, then the bump you show may not be wholly attritutable to "Cash 4 clunkers."

To be 100% acurate, a person would need the '08 numbers for July /Aug, but in lieu of that, if you total April.May/June, you get roughly 2.6 mil. Total for Jul/Aug/Sep is around 2.8. I don't think I'd call that a 55% increase, but I'm not priveleged to other criteria, either, such as exactlty what % of cars sold were eligable for C4C. In terms of total sales, it was up over 200k, at a minimum,in comparison to the 3 previous months.

*eligible*

"To be 100% acurate, a person would need the '08 numbers for July /Aug"

WTF are you talking about? That was before the meltdown. Get real.

" I suspect that with new cars coming out you'd see a bump in September sales each year."

CfC ended on August 24th.

So...cars stopped wearing out because of the meltdown? LOL! Dan, I believe people buy new cars because they need them, moreso than just because they can. People still need cars.

Yeah, and according to the chart, sales went fro 1.25 mil in Aug to 744k in Sep. Sales dropped by over a half million. Suppose there might be a reason? Like people who were contemplating a new '10 model in Sept decided to go with the '09 because it was 4500 off?

I wonder what % of Aug. sales were carved off Sep sales?

"So...cars stopped wearing out because of the meltdown?"

No, but people stopped buying new cars. For God's sake look at the chart. Who's to say it wouldn't have continued dropping?

"People still need cars."

Well...yeah, but not necessarily new cars.

"I believe people buy new cars because they need them, moreso than just because they can. "

But during downturns, they're more likely to settle on a used car. Econ 101.

"Yeah, and according to the chart, sales went fro 1.25 mil in Aug to 744k in Sep. Sales dropped by over a half million. Suppose there might be a reason? Like people who were contemplating a new '10 model in Sept decided to go with the '09 because it was 4500 off?"

Yes, quite possibly. One of the reasons I was against CfC, and I'll bet one of yours, too.

This was fun, Dan...now go post some tunes...LOL! I'm gonna listen to some music....

This is a repost of mine on the same subject but diffgerent thread. If You declare it is spam then flag it and RCADE can give Me another Demerit.


My total beef with the Cash for Clunkers program.


1 The waste of energy that was required in the manufacturing of the clunkers. Many of them had a lot of life left in them. So they could have saved the energy that was requitred to build them,


2The wasted energy required to destroy the clunkers including but not limited to the energy required to manufacture the gunk that was required to seize up the engine. Also the Energy required to actually crush and subsequently shred the clunkers into itty bitty pieces.


3The wasted energy required to melt and separate the different metal components in the shredded clunker. Also the wasted energy that was required to ship them to India.


4.The safety factor with regards to the New Replacement Automobile compared to the durability of the clunkers. Many of the clunkers had better bumpers and better body panels compared to the new Replacement for the clunkers.


5ADD all of the energy consumed in points 1 through 3 and I would bet anything You will find a new LOSS and no net GAIN.


6The comfort level of the new vehicle replacement compared to the more roomy clunker. People came out behind and not ahead.


Larry

Also, suppose for a minute they didn't lie. They've spent $150 billion of the $787 billion in "stimulus" to create 650,000 jobs? That comes out to $230,000 per job. That's not stimulus; it's waste.

"They've spent $150 billion of the $787 billion in "stimulus" to create 650,000 jobs? That comes out to $230,000 per job."

More stinky math.

What do you (honestly) think the unemployment rate would be today if the government had announced it wasn't going to do anything?

Unemployment rate? Don't know....do you?

"Unemployment rate? Don't know....do you?"

Psychology is a powerful thing. Had the government turned their backs, I bet it would be 12%-15% by now. I have to admit I thought a lot more boutique shops would have closed by now, but I have a habit of calling trends too early. Maybe that's still to come, after the cash they've injected into the economy runs out.

Post a comment
Comments are closed for this entry.
Drudge Retort

Home | News | Comments | User Blogs | Nooner | Back Page | RSS Feed | RSS Spec | Copyright 2009 World Readable