Drudge Retort: Red Meat for Yellow Dogs

The economy grew by 3.5% in the third quarter of 2009, indicating the end of the recession. "After four consecutive quarters of decline, positive GDP growth is an encouraging sign that the U.S. economy is moving in the right direction," said Christina Romer, chair of the Council of Economic Advisers.

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I'll be first.

Bullshit.

"I'll be first. Bullshit."

Got data to support that claim?

Got to love a righty. They spend their day arguing against facts.

No wonder you all are so unhappy.

Remember what the Right was saying when the rest of us were teling them we were headed into a recession?

Yeah..........expect more of the same now. They were wrong then and everyone now knows it.

Well, guess what?

This is good news. Now if GDP was only like 10% to match the defecit we'd be in good shape.

Here is a question... Do the ends justify the means? I would not put any positive merit on the GDP growing by 10% if it was through means there were not beneficial in the long run.

I will be happy when we see some information coming from the Financial heads of this state. Information as to how we got here is lacking, also information as to its durability is also lacking.

watchingthewatchers.org

This is NOT good news. Nor does it mean we're emerging from a recession.

The reason GDP is up is that government spending is up. Way up. We are borrowing $$$ to inflate the numbers.

Now, if consumer purchasing and business's capital investments were trending upward, that would be different.

But a rise in only government spending... spending money we don't have? I'm not buying it.

^

Told ya!

Recent analysis by the Amherst Securities Group indicates the housing industry will not only worsen as a delayed pipeline of foreclosed loans begins to liquidate, but that the Administration's Making Home Affordable Modification Program (HAMP) will have no lasting effect on keeping delinquent loans current....

Amherst estimates this "shadow inventory" at around 7m housing units, or 135% of a full year of existing home sales, compared with 1.27m units in early 2005. Loans continue to transition into the delinquency/foreclosure pipeline at a rapid pace, but are moving out at a very slow pace.

Bernanke is trying to inflate-away the problems in housing, but with little success. In fact, according to Robert Shiller, who created the index for measuring house prices in 20 major cities, the Fed may have generated another bubble.

Housing prices will continue to tumble through 2010 no matter what the Fed does. In fact, on Wednesday the Commerce Dept reported that sales of new one-family houses in September dropped to a rate of 402,000, down 3.8 percent from August. That's 7.8 percent below 2008, well below economists worst predictions.

The sense that the economy is returning to normal, is an illusion nurtured by the financial media. The mood is grim. The public has lost faith in the media, in the Fed, and in public institutions. The "cheery predictions" are no longer having any effect. No doubt, this will make it even harder to stabilize the teetering housing market.

Excerpted from Mike Whitney @ Counterpunch

"A recovery without jobs is no recovery at all."
-- Howard Dean, 2003

How many trillions of dollars of funny money did that take eh?

#7 Oohrah> The reason GDP is up is that government spending is up. Way up. We are borrowing $$$ to inflate the numbers.

I heard another economist on a radio interview saying the same thing a few days ago. Had not heard it anywhere else until I saw your post.

Hmmm, it may have been the founder of:

www.frenke.com

Apparently he is a financial & investment advisor. I like listening to him but was unsure of his qualifications.

#9 Nutcase> The sense that the economy is returning to normal, is an illusion nurtured by the financial media. The mood is grim. The public has lost faith in the media, in the Fed, and in public institutions.

From what I hear, most retailers are expecting a very poor Christmas selling season. I wouldn't be surprised if some more big name chain retailers don't go under. The public isn't buying because they don't think things are improving, at least from their own view. Until the job market really turns around I don't see much changing as far as consumer confidence goes. That's my $0.02 worth. ;~)


Remember what the Right was saying when the rest of us were teling them we were headed into a recession?


Yeah..........expect more of the same now.

This coming from those who were 'wrong' on the number of jobs created?

-After a long decline, the economy is officially growing again

I don't know how mmuch more of this bad news the GNOP can take.......

The Outstanding Public Debt as of 29 Oct 2009 at 06:36:06 PM GMT is: $11.908,505,336,016.60

The GDP of the whole world is only 55 Trillion.

The estimated population of the United States is 307,190,393
so each citizen's share of this debt is $38,765.88.

And how do you pay it back? Busting the dollar and sky high inflation. Sucks, but I think it's comming.


Massive inflation is on the way. If public health care is passed we are in big shit.

How many trillions of dollars of funny money did that take eh?

#11 | Posted by Shawn


The Apocalypse is near I just flagged a Shawn post as newsworthy

"The Apocalypse is near "

Well if that is true, you have a lot to worry about!! : )

LOL

This means that the recession is officially over, and any talk of further stimulus is just a way for Washington pols to feather their nests with pork. If GDP is really growing at a 3.5% rate, there should be no more talk of bailouts, of TARP or PPIP or any other acronym TaxDodgin' Timmy wants to throw around.

This is great news. No more Washington largess to "save" the economy, as that's already done.

Sorry that the economic news isn't shitty enough for all you folks. You're really going to hate it 6 months from now.

Start printing those "I Voted Against the Stimulus" posters so you can have them ready for 2012!!!! Make sure you remind everyone of your party's Do-Nothing ways.

Now that the recession is over, if jobs and housing come back, we gotta start giving credit to the actions taken by President Bush on the way out the door and President Obama as he came in. The economy was hovering on the precipice of total disaster. Our whole economic system was in jeopardy.

Nor does it mean we're emerging from a recession.

Technically, it does mean we've emerged from a recession. It might not mean our economic and job problems are over, but it does mean the recession is over.

watchingthewatchers.org

This is NOT good news. Nor does it mean we're emerging from a recession.

The reason GDP is up is that government spending is up. Way up. We are borrowing $$$ to inflate the numbers.

Now, if consumer purchasing and business's capital investments were trending upward, that would be different.

But a rise in only government spending... spending money we don't have? I'm not buying it.

#7 | Posted by OohRah at 2009-10-29 12:42 PM

A thoughtful analysis that MP is apparently unable to argue against.

So, cheerleaders, I greatly welcome the end of the recession, because I will start getting yearly raises again, and a small pay cut they took from me and my coworkers a few months ago, but is the bump in GDP the result of consumer spending, business growth, etc., or the result of increased government spending?

I just love how You folks are counting Your chickens before they are hatched. People are still losing their asses/Jobs I don't know how anyone can say this whole shindig is overwith.

Larry

"The Apocalypse is near "

Well if that is true, you have a lot to worry about!! : )

LOL

#20 | Posted by Lisa

If that is true then we have NOTHING to worry about. That means that big stack of bills on my desk can just stay there...right?


Massive inflation is on the way. If public health care is passed we are in big shit.

#18 | Posted by fishpaw

But, now you will be very healthy sitting there in your shit.

Good post Larry.

"If that is true then we have NOTHING to worry about. That means that big stack of bills on my desk can just stay there...right?"

Yep!!! Ain't gonna matter!!! : )

My personal finances won't be back to normal until the economy really comes back. The government spending may have helped me personally a little, in that Iowa used stimulus funds to keep its state institutions running (of which I'm a part of), but that is temporary, and Iowa's books still look shitty.

We need business, jobs, people buying shit, and in turn tax revenue.

The average rebate was $4,000. But the overwhelming majority of sales would have taken place anyway at some time in the last half of 2009, according to Edmunds.com. That means the government ended up spending about $24,000 each for those 125,000 additional vehicle sales.

I. UNEMPLOYMENT RATE
July: 9.5%
August: 9.4%
September: 9.7%
October Consensus Expectation: 9.8%
October Actual: 9.8%


This news is "sugar high economics". Nothing more. Wake me when unemployment hits 6% and the deficit goes down. - Without the debt going up.

How many times have they officially called it a recovery, then had to back off. Give it a week or two for them to recant.

Ask the millions (and growing) out of a job with no prospects (officially 10%, actual closer to 20+%)

Ask the manufacturing sector if it is turning around.

Ask the retailers.

Ask an accomplished economist that doesn't have a political or financial motivation to state an opinion.

Excellent News. Thank you, Mr. President
Sincerely, The 10.3% unemployed members of the Country.

I have been very clear in my posts regarding unemployment numbers.

I have explained how companies hire.

I have explained where these companies are currently hiring.

And I have provided time frames for these things to occur.

Just landed another executive this morning. 190k base for a Partner level SOA Architect. Now he has a team to build.

Get it?

See, Wis doesn't understand lagging indicators either.

People who don't understand this denied we were in a recession citing unemployment numbers.

Now these same people will deny that we are exiting it based on the same false understanding of economic indicators.

Just as I predicted above!

I live in California where the unemployment is at 12%, and there are dozens of people lining up for minimal pay jobs. The GDP is not an accurate reflection of job growth, and you can't tell me that the recession is over, regardless of some numbers shown on a chart. Whether or not Obama's stimulus worked or is working I cannot say.

We need business, jobs, people buying shit, and in turn tax revenue.

The end of the recession will help. It is a tangible, indisputable sign that things are getting better. People won't start spending again until they have solid confidence that this cruddy economy is over.

There is a definition for the word recession. Do you want to know what it is?

"An extended decline in general business activity, typically two consecutive quarters of falling real gross national product."

You don't get to change the meaning of the word to fit your particular version of reality.

The GDP is not an accurate reflection of job growth, and you can't tell me that the recession is over, regardless of some numbers shown on a chart.

The recession itself was defined by numbers on a chart. The traditional definition of a recession was two consecutive quarters in which the Gross Domestic Product shrank.

Spend money? You guys haven't been spending money? Man you guys missed some great fucking sales.

I got all new appliances this year. I couldn't believe the deals at Home Depot. Replaced my fence as well. I hadn't seen wood so cheap in years.

Bummer....

Who needs money to take advantage of the recesssion? I gave crackhead hookers cheap sirloins for BJ's instead of the usual $5.

Atta boy Chair! Fill her up with something warm.

It's all bullshit. The Feds pumped up the GNP with their own spending and creative accounting. Then they call it a jobless recovery which is a contradiction in terms.

It is impossible to spend your way out of a problem caused by too much spending. All the feds did was created a bigger bubble than the one Greenspan created.

Man can I call it or what?

10% unemployment, whuda thunk?

the deficit goes down. - Without the debt going up.

So the years from 2000-2008 were miserable failures?

"It is impossible to spend your way out of a problem caused by too much spending."

Ssshhhh. No common sense allowed.

These hacks want to pretend that everyone is doing well because their guy is in office. They'll be pawning their jewelry while calling you an idiot for doubting that everything is just swell.

I gave crackhead hookers cheap sirloins for BJ's instead of the usual $5.

But at least with the $5 you can get change back.

"Recession Ends"

With apologies to Lloyd Bentsen, if you give me a trillion dollars to spend, I can make it look like the recession has ended, too.

The worst is yet to come.

And they just keep coming. It's like I am pulling their strings or something.

I'll tell you guys, Corporate America has placed their bet. And they are betting LARGE on the economy continuing to improve.

You armchair-economists are going to be wrong, again.


I have to laugh at the repubs who somehow believe that 'recession' is matter of opinion.

Manypaths, nobody is saying it isn't going to recover, it always does. We're just saying this isn't it.

And they just keep coming. It's like I am pulling their strings or something.

#50 | Posted by Manypaths at 2009-10-29 02:54 PM | Flag: Thinks Danforth is an Obama hater wishing for bad news

It's the begining, and it's 3 months underway.

Shocking that that bothers some of you.

Manypaths, recovery doesn't bother me...trying to spin 10% unemployment into a positive does.

I don't think I have used the President's name in this thread.

But I have always wanted a little DR Pet that I could call my own to follow me around. If you can manage to not pee on the carpet, I think I'll keep you Live.

Good boy..........sit. Stay. Good boy.

Just because someone says the recession has ended doesn't mean there isn't a depression right around the corner...they said this in july, september - the economy only worsened.

manyputz - do you believe it's raining every time a talking head pees down your collar?

"It's the begining, and it's 3 months underway."

And what will you say in 6 months when the GDP has shrunk again?

LAGGING FUCKING INDICATOR!!!!!

why is this so hard for you fucks to understand?


See, Wis doesn't understand lagging indicators either.


People who don't understand this denied we were in a recession citing unemployment numbers.


Now these same people will deny that we are exiting it based on the same false understanding of economic indicators.


How can I make it more clear for you?

#44 | Posted by Manypaths at 2009-10-29 02:49 PM | Reply | Flag: Totally illiterate in economics and finance. Easily deceived by smoke and mirrors.

Simple logic should tell one, that it is impossible to bring about a recovery by borrowing and spending. That only makes problems worse. As it is now, the feds are carrying an impossible debt load. If it wasn't for the Federal Reserve, they would have been bankrupt long ago.

This so-called recovery is no more than a spending junkie high.

We aint out of the woods until AFTER the priciple of the debt spends at LEAST a few years getting a FEW percent smaller each year.

MP,

I have some pigs that would like to learn the tango. I am sure you would be much more successful teaching the pigs to dance than teaching Rtard economics.

I don't think I have saved an entire thread before. This is going to be fun!

I don't think I have used the President's name in this thread.

#57 | Posted by Manypaths at 2009-10-29 03:02 PM

Your whole schtick in this thread has been that those poo-pooing it are republicans invested in a bad economy. Just point out that Danforth isn't one of them.

But I have always wanted a little DR Pet that I could call my own to follow me around. If you can manage to not pee on the carpet, I think I'll keep you Live.

Good boy..........sit. Stay. Good boy.

#57 | Posted by Manypaths at 2009-10-29 03:02 PM

LOL, don't flatter yourself.

With apologies to Lloyd Bentsen, if you give me a trillion dollars to spend, I can make it look like the recession has ended, too.


The worst is yet to come.

#49 | Posted by Danforth

Amen.

I think the recession is technically over but we are not out of the woods economically until the huge amounts of vacant homes are sold to buyers who can actually pay for them and that won't happen until there are jobs. It will be a long and slow recovery with some ups and some downs but overall it will probably continue along like it is right now for a year or two.

"I gave crackhead hookers cheap sirloins for BJ's instead of the usual $5.
#41 | Posted by 101Chairborne"


Lucky. I tried that, but couldn't get away with it because none of mine have teeth.

We aren't out of the woods yet folks. We are about to see a major hike in inflation and interest rates are going to sky-rocket. We will be lucky if the real estate market holds steady. The only real cure is to cut spending and increase revenues by imposing taxes across the board and closing the tax gap. It's going to hurt, but it will help in the long run.

I'm just using the same yardstick that Howard Dean laid out in the early 2000's.

But, in fairness, even liberals like Ted Rall are highly critical of Obama's handling of the economy.

"Nine months into his presidency, however, it is clear that Obama is more Hoover than FDR. There has been virtually no investment in public infrastructure. There will be no public jobs programs."

What a great headline.

In 6 months time, I hope we can all look back on this headline and say "yep, rcade was right to post that in big, giant letters".

Otherwise...he'll look like a fool.

What a great headline.

In 6 months time, I hope we can all look back on this headline and say "yep, rcade was right to post that in big, giant letters".

Otherwise...he'll look like a fool.

damn.

first time that's happened.


-It is impossible to spend your way out of a problem caused by too much spending. -Raystradamus

"Impossible"- "You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means." - Inigo Montoya

"So, have we reached a 1400 point Dow yet, Wolf?" - McCafferty


This site has some good presentations to illustrate the horrific state of government finances.

mwhodges.home.att.net

The usual suspects will undoubtedly not bother to look. They rather believe the fairy tales coming out of Washington.

#74 | Posted by Corky at 2009-10-29 03:23 PM | Reply | Flag: Not a logical bone in his body.

"So, have we reached a 1400 point Dow yet, Wolf?" - McCafferty

No, Jack, but Anna Nicole Smith is still dead....

My line of business experiences employment trends about 6 months before industry does.

What Recruiters are Seeing

The only real cure is to cut spending and increase revenues by imposing taxes across the board and closing the tax gap. It's going to hurt, but it will help in the long run.

#69 | Posted by taxman

It would help me lose my home in the long run.

#76 | Posted by Ray at 2009-10-29 03:25 PM | Reply | Flag: Fringe Priest of von Mises Theology

I am so disappointed for Ray that this recession never produced a 1400 Dow as Raystradamus prophesied.... but he'll claim the recession has just begun and it will still reach that mark..... someday.... over the rainbow, skies are dark.....

A resession does not end until there are TWO consecutive quarters of growth..that shows sustainablity.

As it is the Cash for Clunkers (where the US tax payer paid $24K for each additional unit sold) had a significant impact on 3Q results.

So..sorry...not out of the woods yet...but we probably are close given how dead we were...but we will not see a dip in unemployment for some time.

You will know it is over when the fed raises interest rates...and when it does everything will come crashing down as hyperinflation will start taking hold.

You should start now buying companies that deal in fixed assests that will appreciate fast in inflationairy times...food producers, Brazil (signficant food production), Platium, Sliver, Paladium, Gold..though it has had a good run to this point.

Sad that the Obamanites are so desperate for some good news that they are latching onto anything....but with 10% unemployment (5% under Bush) 1.4 TRILLION deficit THIS YEAR (vrs 700B under Bush - and decried by the left as the "worst economy in 20 years") and paying people to buy things (Cash for Clunkers, Home sales rebates) we still have not reached sustainablity.

"A resession does not end until there are TWO consecutive quarters of growth"

Link?

"vrs 700B under Bush"

How is it, Bush was running a half-trillion dollar deficit budget, he injected a trillion dollars a few days before the bailout vote, and another trillion with TARP, and folks can actually cite a number like 700B with a straight face?!?

My line of business experiences employment trends about 6 months before industry does.
What Recruiters are Seeing

#78 | Posted by Manypaths

I'm not impressed.

Again. It is impossible to spend your way out of a problem created by too much spending. It's so logically simple. Bells and sirens should be going off in your head when the feds said they spent the economy into a recovery.

Why do you guys keep mentioning the deficit.

Reagan proved they don't matter. Remember? And he also proved that even 12% unemployment doesn't matter. Remember? He is the Right's economic wizard. Remember?

#83

I'm still wondering how Bush could start a war and give two tax cuts to the wealthy, none of which was paid for in his budget, and GOPhers whine about health care, paid for, with a straight face.

Ray, you have already demostrated you inability to predict economic trends. No need for you to continue.

Time. That is what will prove me right or wrong. NOTHING you have to say matters.

Sad that the Obamanites are so desperate for some good news that they are latching onto anything....but with 10% unemployment (5% under Bush) 1.4 TRILLION deficit THIS YEAR (vrs 700B under Bush - and decried by the left as the "worst economy in 20 years") and paying people to buy things (Cash for Clunkers, Home sales rebates) we still have not reached sustainablity.

Hey, I think Obama is a fuck up too, but the idea that Bush was some sort of success when we all know that it was a house of cards, is laughable.

Sorry, we got the guy 195k base with a 50k bonus. Ask him how the job market is doing.

Ray, you have already demostrated you inability to predict economic trends. No need for you to continue.

Has he? I haven't heard any gold jokes from the cheerleaders in awhile.

- It is impossible to spend your way out of a problem created by too much spending.

Keynes, and most modern economists, disagree, but we should listen to Ludwig von Mises?

I think not.

The FAILURE of Republicans to curb Debt is one of the core reasons so many conservatives are in revolt.

The only thing that republicans can say in their defense on this subject is that Obama is FAR FAR worse.

Keynes, and most modern economists, disagree, but we should listen to Ludwig von Mises?

I think not.

You should try it...you'd actually be right for a change.

In 6 months time, I hope we can all look back on this headline and say "yep, rcade was right to post that in big, giant letters". Otherwise...he'll look like a fool.

The end of the recession is a big deal regardless of what happens next.

Whew. I'm glad the recession is over.

I was just told at my job that there would be neither cost-of-living nor merit pay increases next year (for the 2nd consecutive year). Maybe I should tell them that the recession is over and they'll change their minds.


Just think how horrible it will be for Americ... er, the GNOP, when jobs do start coming back next year, the economy grows, and universal health care is a near reality.

The Congress could actually pretty much buck the off-year trends.

lets all hope so. Hard to know what impact the "Cash for Clunkers Cluster" had on the numbers...

-you'd actually be right for a change

You mean right like Raystradamus?

Bwahahahahaha!

Reagan proved they don't matter. Remember? And he also proved that even 12% unemployment doesn't matter. Remember? He is the Right's economic wizard. Remember?
#85 | Posted by Manypaths

In Reagan's time, deficits were in the billions. Now they are in the trillions. Deficits are ccumulative. This time the feds hit the limit of debt. They maxed out their credit card.

#98 | Posted by Corky at 2009-10-29 03:43 PM | Reply | Flag: Incapable of intelligent thought.

Cash for clunkers cost us $24,000 per car.

Danforth,

en.wikipedia.org

"Although the US Economy grew in the first quarter by 1%, [39][40] by June 2008 some analysts stated that due to a protracted credit crisis and "rampant inflation in commodities such as oil, food and steel", the country was nonetheless in a recession.[41] The third quarter of 2008 brought on a GDP retraction of 0.5%[42] the biggest decline since 2001"

So eventhough you have an increase does not mean you are out of the woods...the general rule of thumb is - two and two.....Two consecutive quarters of no growth to be IN a recession and Two to be out.

www.iasg.com

That is their biggest fear Corky. That the stimulus does work and all Dems have to do is remind the voters that the Republicans were in lock-step against it.

They know if that happens, Moses' walk in the desert is going to look like a short one.

So eventhough you have an increase does not mean you are out of the woods...the general rule of thumb is - two and two.....Two consecutive quarters of no growth to be IN a recession and Two to be out.

I'll say that is valid. So if Q4 numbers show growth, you'll say the recession in over?

#101 | Posted by 101Chairborne

You paying more taxes Chair?

Keynes, and most modern economists, disagree, but we should listen to Ludwig von Mises?
I think not.
#91 | Posted by Corky

Any competent accountant can see that the federal government is insolvent. Without the Federal Reserve, they could not pay their bills.

You would think Corky never had to manage a budget.

Corky is one of the usual suspects I knew would not look at the link I posted.

""vrs 700B under Bush"

It's easier to keep you budget deficit lower when you pay for wars off budget.

The end of the recession is a big deal regardless of what happens next.
#94 | Posted by rcade

That's like the man who fell out of the Empire Empire State Building. Half way down, he said, "so far so good."


Gold prices must be down again today.


"the general rule of thumb is - two and two.."

From where? I know it's two down quarters to go in, but show me where, in classical economics, it's two up quarters to get out?

zfacts.com

Many Paths.

The reason Reagan is not comparible is due to two issues 1) deficit as a % of GDP. Though they grew under Reagan they were at a moderate level of GDP. (by the way it was a democratic congress that voted the budget...compare this graph with which party controlled congress and you would get a much different picture) Obama has broken the 80% level to a place we have seen since we were fighting wars over four continents and a significant portion of the population was in the military

2nd. Interest rates on the debit. The real pain under the Reagan deficits was the payment of interest on the debit...due to low interest rates (currently) we are not facing that problem...however if interest rates return to Carter levels (which they will in about 2 years) the interest rate on the debit will force us into the 100% range and take us into insolvency.

That is their biggest fear Corky. That the stimulus does work and all Dems have to do is remind the voters that the Republicans were in lock-step against it.
They know if that happens, Moses' walk in the desert is going to look like a short one.
#103 | Posted by Manypaths

It's not a fear. It's certain knowledge that you are being conned.

So Danni...the wars are still there (Iraq is smaller due to the surge that Obama was against)

Are they still not off budget and it is 1.4 TRILLION!?

Danforth...in the post and link previously sighted.

Gold prices must be down again today.
#109 | Posted by Corky

I would only buy more if I had the money.

You paying more taxes Chair?

#105 | Posted by Manypaths at 2009-10-29 03:52 PM | Reply


Don't know. I don't open pay stubs and the wife takes care of all bills, finances, etc

I know how much beer, steak, seafood, and pot costs. Everything else is taken care of by the Mrs.

I am going to continue to assume that my multi-billion dollar clients are right and you arm-chair bloggers are wrong.

It just makes sense to.

If pot can stay the same price, why is our beer going up?

How much is beef going for these days? Killing elk has taken me out of that loop.

Good news if it is real GDP and not only Govt spending that can not be maintained. I am sure O will calim he got us out, but if we go back in will all the numb nuts on here still blame Bush for everything?

Oh cool, the recession's over. I'm sure the 20 Million unemployed people in America will be happy to hear this news.

"Are they still not off budget and it is 1.4 TRILLION!?"

No, now it is figured in the budget.

"The true costs of war
Obama reverses photo ban, puts war in budget


Appeared in print: Saturday, Feb. 28, 2009, page A8


------------------------------
------------------------------
--------------------

Unlike his predecessor, President Obama wants the American people to understand the true human and financial costs of the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan.

In Tuesday's speech to a joint session of Congress, Obama announced that he will end the charade of not including the anticipated cost of the wars in the federal budget.

The Bush administration did not include war spending in its budgets. Instead, it relied on emergency or supplemental requests to Congress.

There was a reason for that sleight of accounting. At the start of the Iraq war, Bush administration officials predicted that it would cost less than $60 billion to remove Saddam Hussein from power, restore order and install a new government. By the time President Bush left office five years later, the cost of the war was nearly $600 billion. The Congressional Budget Office recently estimated the long-term cost could hit $2 trillion.

"special.registerguard.com

i am going to continue to assume that my multi-billion dollar clients are right and you arm-chair bloggers are wrong.
It just makes sense to.
#117 | Posted by Manypaths

The logic of over spending and over borrowing must be too hard to grasp.

Got to love a righty. They spend their day arguing against facts.

No wonder you all are so unhappy.

I was hoping for a little honesty. I distinctly remember arguing (several times) that the recession had not started over year ago because we had not had the 2 quarters of negative growth which is the official definition of a recession. All of the lefties argued with me, "BS, we are in one. The two quarters definition is irrelevant."

Now that Bush is no longer president, it seems they have now adopted the official definition that they shunned last year.

Funny how the little fact of who occupies the WH makes such a big difference how the lefties call a recession. LOL

Don't know. I don't open pay stubs and the wife takes care of all bills, finances, etc


I know how much beer, steak, seafood, and pot costs. Everything else is taken care of by the Mrs.

Good.

I thought I was the only one who was like that.

The Barney Frank/Christopher Dodd/ACORN/CRA recesion is over. They did enough damage.

We were "officially" in a recession after 4Q '08. Of course, since credit tanked in September of '08, a recession was pretty much a foregone conclusion, no?

money.cnn.com

The positive GDP report is one more sign that the economy has likely pulled out of the deep recession that started in December 2007.

Found that in the link you supplied. Thanks.

Of course, since credit tanked in September of '08, a recession was pretty much a foregone conclusion, no?

But we weren't in one?

Credit is still tanked. Job losses are are greater. So I guess it is a foregone conclusion that we aren't out, no?

Let's play by the same rules for once, LetUsBraypumapac.org

"BS, we are in one. The two quarters definition is irrelevant."

Ask any economist who was right.

According the the National Bureau of Economic Research (the official arbiter of recessions) the current recession began in December 2007.

Sorry Goat. The Officals disagree with you. It doesn't have anything to do with who is in the WH. The Officials have spoken.

But this is the begining or the end. I agree the Headline is misleading. It is ending. It's not over.

"According the the National Bureau of Economic Research (the official arbiter of recessions)"

Bullshit. They're merely self-appointed arbiters. They have no more right to change the classical definition than anyone else.

Ask any economist then Dan. I don't fucking care who it is.

This recession started in December of 2007. Why you insist on denying that is your problem.

According the the National Bureau of Economic Research (the official arbiter of recessions) the current recession began in December 2007.

Well then, as I said, we are using 2 different definitions. This story cites that we are out merely on the fact that there was one quarter of positive growth.

Let's pick one definition or another and run with it.

The classical definition of the beginning of a recession is two consequitive quarters on negative growth. Using that definition, we are out. Also, using that definition, we didn't start until 4Q08.

As I said, let's play by the same rules for once. Is that asking too much?

All of the lefties argued with me, "BS, we are in one. The two quarters definition is irrelevant."

...

#123 | Posted by goatman at 2009-10-29 04:24 PM | Reply | Flag: Making up shit...again

Sorry Goat. The Officals disagree with you.

The "officials" say 2 quarters of negative growth is a recession. Look it up.

This is like the 4th time the recession ended in the last few months.

123 | Posted by goatman at 2009-10-29 04:24 PM | Reply | Flag: Making up shit...again

#134 | Posted by nullifidian at 2009-10-29 04:48 PM | Reply | Flag: Severe memory loss from too much pot use

Is Rcade making a joke with that headline?

The Federal Reserve, as we know, is now under uncomfortably high public scrutiny and its hitherto secretive actions are being subject to the greatest degree of Congressional and press scrutiny that the institution has experienced in its 96-year history.

In the 1970s, the then-Chairman of the Committee of Financial Services, Henry Reuss, sought to challenge the constitutionality of the Federal Open Market Committee's ultimate decision-making power on monetary policy, but he was denied standing. The Supreme Court never ruled on the issue. But now, like so many other things, the Fed's privileged status in our society is again being queried. A healthy dose of skepticism in regard to their actions is well merited.

When a commercial bank makes a loan, they wonder "how will I get repaid". When an investment bank makes a loan, they wonder "how will I sell this asset".

Having left open the gates of the asylum, the President and his main economic advisers profess shock that the sociopaths who run our investment banks daring to gamble in a totally uninhibited manner with the taxpayers' dollars.

The current administration is using our blood to feed vampires instead of giving that blood to people who could genuinely use a transfusion. This causes those vampires, in turn, to prey on the rest of us. By the same token, introducing pay restrictions on the likes of AIG, BofA, or Citi is akin to complaining about the quality of the clothing being worn by the zombies as they rampage and munch away on the living.

Enhance creditworthiness and improved credit conditions will follow; personal balance sheets before bank balance sheets.

Raise everyone's pay and things will get better.

Happy Halloween everybody.

Excerpted from Marshall Auerback @ Counterpunch

Flag: Severe memory loss from too much pot use

#137 | Posted by goatman

Bill Hicks is in the house!

I have to laugh at this.

They gave out how many billions and now those companies are reporting profits and so GDP is up but they don't subtract what the government gave.

Looks like free money

Recession? What recession? I've been working overtime for the last three months. Our company is so busy that we need to hire additional employees to staff the projects that are on the way.

Posted by Republican4ever at 2008-02-06 10:39 PM


I several industries, they are in recession. But in manufacturing, hospitality, financial services (non-mortgage), industrial and commercial construction--no.

Posted by rightisright at 2008-02-06 11:44 PM


That's what the right was saying then.

Bill Hicks is in the house!

#139 | Posted by nullifidian

I've been here the whole time.

The market seemed to like the good news

Dow industrials
+199.89 +2.05%
last 9962.58


Got to love a righty. They spend their day arguing against facts.


No wonder you all are so unhappy.

#3 | Posted by Manypaths


You idiot! LOL

The recession ended a while back, but something pushed it back 6 months!!!

The Democrats happened.

Do you realize how many people would still have their jobs if Obama and the Dems didn't take over Washington?

I know more about people and jobs then you'll ever know.

Dow industrials
+199.89 +2.05%
last 9962.58

Great news because it means I am making scads of free money, but this is yet another thing the lefties told me was irrelevant as it pertains to the health of economy. At least it was when it was at 14,000 and Bush was president

There is no denying, MP, there is a double standard when measuring the economy


I know more about people and jobs then you'll ever know.

#145 | Posted by Manypaths

I'll admit you know more than the current President.


I know more about people and jobs then you'll ever know.

#145 | Posted by Manypaths

Do you run a business?

A double standard? Not by economists. They all agree that it is an extended decline in business activity.

2 consecutive quarters does indicate a recession, and that is why that is used in the definition of RECESSION right after the word 'TYPICALLY' but economists look at additional data as it comes in.

I understand you wanting to put a hard fast definition to the word recession, but 2 consecutive quarters is just a guide not a rule.

You and I agree in that we are just going through economic cycles and this news indicates a change. We can agree that that is a good start can't we?

Yes, an Executive Employment business.

lol, thanks wis. I'll take a compliment anyway I can get it!

I understand you wanting to put a hard fast definition to the word recession, but 2 consecutive quarters is just a guide not a rule.

It's not that I want to -- it's the generally accepted definition.


You cited National Bureau of Economic Research upthread to indicate the earlier start to the recession. Do they agree it has ended?

As I said, all I ask is that we use one standard, and not pick the one that suits our particular political agenda at the moment.

So . . . what does the NBER say? They haven't, according to the featured article. So wouldn't you admit it is not fair to say it is over when you cite them for naming its beginning?

"The Barney Frank/Christopher Dodd/ACORN/CRA recesion is over. They did enough damage."

And you conveniently leave out Bush, Greenspan, Paulson. What a joke.

We can agree that that is a good start can't we?

We can. Let's hope it's not a false start like the ones that marked the Great Depression.

You cited National Bureau of Economic Research upthread to indicate the earlier start to the recession. Do they agree it has ended?

Agree with who? Me? I say it is ending but not over.

You want a standard, well the standard is the NBER.

I'll agree to not claim that it is offically over until they do. Does that work for you?

#83 | Posted by Danforth

You are correct Dan--those assholes in the Fed Reserve dumped 650 Billion into the system as the congress was voting on the 700B TARP.

Bush only spent half of that leaving the rest for Obama to spend.

The stimulus has only spent what? 10% to 12% of the money?

Cash for clunkers was 3 billion--that would account for some of this.

Exports up 15%


3.5% is so high--it's almost unbelievable.

When was the last time we had 3.5% growth in a quarter??

Where are the jobs??

But realize, by the time the NBER announces it, we will be well out of it and they will tell us it ended X months ago.

I'll agree to not claim that it is offically over until they do. Does that work for you?

The irony here is that I do say it's over. I go by the 2Q rule. I used to mark the beginning, it is only fair I stick with that standard.

Where are the jobs??

#156 | Posted by MURPHY

Ask the guy we just got 245k a year.


Remember what the Right was saying when the rest of us were teling them we were headed into a recession?


Yeah..........expect more of the same now. They were wrong then and everyone now knows it.


Well, guess what?

#4 | Posted by Manypaths

Gotta love when a thread comes full circle like that!!!!!!

No 2 quarters required for the way out GM. That is kinda what I am waiting for. If we shrink in Q4, that will be 5 of the last 6 quarters of contraction. Hard not to call that a recession even if it doesn't fit the 'standard'.

I gotta go celebrate placing that guy over an ale.

Republican or Democrat or Independant or Christian or Jew or Muslim, we should all be cheering for the economy to improve. Whoever said money doesn't buy happiness, never had enough money.

Cheers. Hope you bought some stocks.

"Where are the jobs??"

India and China. If you want the jobs to come back it will take more than bailing out banks and stimulating the economy, you'll finally have to make changes that corporate America doesn't want to see. They've had everything their way for 30 years to the detriment of labor, now our economy suffers because labor doesn't have money to spend. If companies want to sell goods then they are going to have to find ways to create jobs for Americans that pay enought for Americans to shop.

Let's not do another Cash for Clunkers program. $24K per transaction isn't going to help anyone but Federal Goverment employees.

Many, are you a Head Hunter and get a commish?

Why do I get the feeling that this is akin to a kid being told today that lives on skidrow that He will receive a Present from Santa Claus for Christmas but when Christmas comes the poor kid ain't getting shit. I get that feeling.

Larry

"$24K per transaction isn't going to help anyone but Federal Goverment employees."

No, let's do another tax cut for rich folks. That last one worked out so well. Heck, we only doubled the national debt and put the country into a deep recession (depression).

Let's deregulate some more stuff.

STart another couple of wars.

Hey, Let's bomb, bomb, bomb, let's bomb Iran!

Cash for Clunkers cost $24,000 per car
Edmunds.com says only 125,000 vehicle sales were a result of the government's program.


Oh Boy......How Impressive


And these idiots want control of healthcare


God help us all....
.

Huh?

It has never been announced as "ending" in the past how come now? Usually the "(d)recession" is announced as being over 6 months after the fact..

"Cash for Clunkers cost $24,000 per car
Edmunds.com says only 125,000 vehicle sales were a result of the government's program."

What a pile of shit.

The head of Edmunds claimed there are usually 60K-70K "clunker"-like sales per month. CARS went for 1.8 months, July 1st to August 24th. At a generous recession-time guess of 65,000 cars, that's 117,000 cars, vs the 690,000 sold. That's 573,000 more cars sold than average, or less than $5250 per car.

Lucky. I tried that, but couldn't get away with it because none of mine have teeth

public health care will solve that problem.

Lucky. I tried that, but couldn't get away with it because none of mine have teeth

public health care will solve that problem.

Massive inflation is on the way. If public health care is passed we are in big shit.

#18 | POSTED BY FISHPAW


not yet.. deflation in things you dont need.. inflation in those you do..

This will be wholesale asset class deflation.

"3.5% is so high--it's almost unbelievable. When was the last time we had 3.5% growth in a quarter??"

*Sigh*
Here we go again.

The rise is stated in annualized terms.

From the article: "The US economy grew at an annual pace of 3.5%..."

No, let's do another tax cut for rich folks. That last one worked out so well. Heck, we only doubled the national debt and put the country into a deep recession (depression).

#165 | Posted by danni

If you want to claim those tax breaks had less of a positive economic impact than the Cash for Clunkers program, let's get it on.

One recession "ends" and the next one begins next quarter.....

After four consecutive quarters of decline, positive GDP growth is an encouraging sign that the U.S. economy is moving in the right direction.

"However, this welcome milestone is just another step, and we still have a long road to travel until the economy is fully recovered."


OPPS!

Christina stopped spinning for just a second or two...
.

"If you want to claim those tax breaks had less of a positive economic impact than the Cash for Clunkers program, let's get it on."

3 billion vs...what, 3 trillion?!?

You actually want to argue that something 1000 times as large had more of an impact than something one-tenth of one percent as large?

Gee...what a mountain you've chosen to climb!

You actually want to argue that something 1000 times as large had more of an impact than something one-tenth of one percent as large?


Gee...what a mountain you've chosen to climb!

#177 | Posted by Danforth
That was in resonse to Danni's deflection regarding 24K per clunker transaction, chief.

There are two economies, one in DC, the other in the rest of the country. Saying the recession is over because of some easily massaged stats in DC makes as much sense as saying there was no recession in 2007 and 2008 using those same stats. Using them even more dishonestly if it's true the cost of the wars wasn't included and it probably is.

People deep in debt and who have lost their jobs and medical coverage and see no immediate prospect of getting them back are still in deep shit so try telling them the recession is over. It took several years to produce the recession, it'll take several to crawl out from under it too.

Realists realize this and not many of them could possibly think that what the right is NOT proposing will get us out of it more efficiently than the current administration. That one most of us voted for last November because the absurd McCain/Palin candicacy was such a non-starter.

"That was in resonse to Danni's deflection regarding 24K per clunker transaction, chief."

Which, multiplied by the 125K cars the Edmunds guy mistakenly claimed, equals 3 billion, sport.

And, a closer inspection of the math shows it was more like $5250 per car. Check post #169.

$3B divided by an additional 125,000 car sales over normal sales equals what? You have completely missed the point. Carry on.

railroad locomotives are not stored anymore , autoracks loaded with cars are moving en mass again, we cannot staff our trains with enough people so we gotta run them longer. The containers from CHina are moving in mile long double stackers again....

look at the industry numbers - things are moving, which means things are being bought and sold...must be the gov. buying all that steel , cars, and china goods we move! false recovery my ass....too many were layed off and now we can't do what we need to - but that'll soon change again....

Who was the poster that said that there is a group of people arguing against the facts?? I would say that those people are soon to become left in the dust....

This is nuts. When the Weimer Republic had hyperinflation, the stock market was up, GNP was up, but unemployment was close to 40%. There is no limit to how much money the Fed can create to make the statistics look good.

They even lie about unemployment. By their own numbers the U6 table which includes long term unemployed, it's near 17%. Realistically, it's close to 20%.

money the Fed can create to make the statistics look good.

#183 | Posted by Ray

This is what fuels the 'apparent economy'. The real economy always stays pretty much the same because one hour of ditch digging is worth one cabbage, but one hour of brain surgery is worth 1000 cabbages.

It doesn't really matter if the apparent cost of a cabbage is 1 cent or $100.

Besides, the fed can always just lop some zeros off the end of your money.

It doesn't really matter if the apparent cost of a cabbage is 1 cent or $100.

Besides, the fed can always just lop some zeros off the end of your money.
#184 | Posted by Lipzoidial

You really need to do more homework and learn how inflation destroys countries. It's not the nominal number but the stability of the value of the currency that counts. As value decreases, savings and earning buy less. Worse, the uncertainty of a currency discourages investment.

You ignored what I said about unemployment. Also, wages are static or declining. Americans have been falling behind the cost of living since the 70s, making up for the loss with debt, another economy killer.

What our government is doing is the classic means of destroying an economy. It's happened hundreds of times before with the same result.

We had 10 months of Chocolate. Here comes the Carter.

Look at this chart of federal debt.

3.bp.blogspot.com

It looks like the gage of a pressure boiler about to blow.

Now look at the debt consumers are accumulating.

4.bp.blogspot.com

They're living from paycheck to paycheck.

Tell me about it. The Lefties never acknowledge that States play a hand in this mess if they have a Democrat Govenor.


It's happened hundreds of times before with the same result.

#185 | Posted by Ray

It seems you've discovered the secret inside your own head.

Build it up, build it up, build it up, take huge profits, then crash it. Rinse. Repeat.

#189 | POSTED BY LIPZOIDIAL

You don't make any sense.

Ray how would you feel if we eliminated SS and Medicare tomorrow? It would go a long way towards balancing our budgets.

You don't make any sense.

#190 | Posted by Ray

Great comeback, old man.

We could also drop Medicaid and eliminate free public schools.

Where's Danforth? Did he steal 2 bucks from his wife's purse and run out to buy a clue?

Ray how would you feel if we eliminated SS and Medicare tomorrow? It would go a long way towards balancing our budgets.
#191 | POSTED BY JACKASS

They were Ponzi Schemes from the beginning. They shouldn't have started. It's too late now.

How about if the federal government has to hyperinflate to get the money to pay for SS and Medicare. It's going to happen sooner or later. I'll collect SS until the money runs out.

We could also drop Medicaid and eliminate free public schools.

Government education is free? What are you smoking? I see costs between $10,000 and $15,000 a year per student. That's outrageous. That's going bankrupt too.

Free Public schools? WTF are you on tonight?

"You don't make any sense."

#190 | Posted by Ray

Great comeback, old man.

#192 | Posted by nullifidian

Indeed, Ray. Here's an example of a great comeback:

Lying sack of shit. As usual.

Posted by nullifidian at 2009-10-29 05:31 PM |

"Did he steal 2 bucks from his wife's purse and run out to buy a clue?"

2 bucks doesn't buy much at Hollywood and Vine, Whizz.

What are you babbling about, Null?

The end of the recession is a big deal regardless of what happens next.

If, in 6 months, we're back in the same position because the guy we elected didn't actually manage to fix the issues that brought us to this point in the first place...the recession will be continuing...not starting a new one.

and I don't really give a shit what "the officials" say.

That's like the man who fell out of the Empire Empire State Building. Half way down, he said, "so far so good."

That's funny, but it's still dead wrong. The end of the recession is good news no matter what happens tomorrow. The number of people refusing to acknowledge a bit of good news is ridiculous. Surely you must be as sick as I am of reading negative assessments of the economy and eager to see the economy stop circling the drain.

and I don't really give a shit what "the officials" say.

Don't use the word recession if you have such a problem with it. It has a precise meaning, and the simple fact is that we've left the recession.

If I didn't know better, I'd think some folks would rather see the recession continue than have any good news happen while Obama is president.

Surely you must be as sick as I am of reading negative assessments of the economy and eager to see the economy stop circling the drain.

#201 | Posted by rcade

Reading doesn't effect my bottom line. Reality does.

The reality is that we've left the recession.


The reality is that we've left the recession.

#204 | Posted by rcade

The Reality is that we haven't begun deal with the cost of this feel good moment. I'm sure we'll have pleny of time to discuss this when inflation kicks in and the poor and uncared for are raising holy hell and our kids are picking up the tab.

That's funny, but it's still dead wrong. The end of the recession is good news no matter what happens tomorrow. The number of people refusing to acknowledge a bit of good news is ridiculous. Surely you must be as sick as I am of reading negative assessments of the economy and eager to see the economy stop circling the drain.
#201 | POSTED BY RCADE

Like I've been saying throughout this thread, the feds pumped the numbers with a lot of artificial money. It's a fraud.

I get criticized all the time. No one likes unpleasant truths. They like pleasant lies.

Here Rogers. Here's a site with lots of graphs and easy to digest statistics for those who can handle truth. mwhodges.home.att.net Can you?

Don't use the word recession if you have such a problem with it. It has a precise meaning, and the simple fact is that we've left the recession.
#202 | POSTED BY RCADE

It's a Depression that will be worse than the 30s. Even back then, they the market appeared to recover a year later from the 29 crash, popular opinion believed that the economy recovered.

If I didn't know better, I'd think some folks would rather see the recession continue than have any good news happen while Obama is president.

I'm outraged at the crimes (financial and war) Washington has been getting away with for the past hundred years.

Where are the jobs??

Ask the guy we just got 245k a year.

Nobody said it was impossible for an individual to make $245K during a recession. Unemployment could be 20% and there would still be some millionaires out there.

Your anecdotal evidence doesn't mean shit.

This in all likelihood will be a high unemployment recovery and a slow growth one-- when you take "cash for clunkers" and other government stimulus money affects out of the GDP numbers the real GDP number is probably in the low 2's. Stimulus unfortunately doesn't create real jobs but it certainly increases debt. Jobs are created in the private sector and mainly small businesses-- absolutely nothing has been done to facilitate real job creation through the private sector and small business. Also , you'll never have a reversal of the unemployment rate and real job creation unless you have a number of quarters of real GDP growth of 3-4%.

Didn't Romer say last week that the stimulus was done for and expected no further growth?

ahhh...words...just words.

"Where's Danforth?"

At rehearsal for a benefit next week. A friend's kid has leukemia. But thanks for caring.

"$3B divided by an additional 125,000 car sales over normal sales equals what? You have completely missed the point."

Read the article, Einstein. The author of this claim states there are usually 60K-70K in "clunker-esque" sales. CARS went on for 1.78 months. So the baseline is, at most, 117,000 normal sales. Instead, they sold 690,000. That's a difference of 573,000, not 125,000.

When the proper math is applied, it's about $5200 per car.

Okay, so I misinterpreted the word "recession". You still didn't explain how the recession being over is going to mean anything to areas where the unemployment remains at 12%. My point is that this article means NOTHING to those who can't find work.

Just another brick in the Wall...

news.bbc.co.uk

Happy days are here again.

My 3rd grade niece could see through all this crap! Recession over?? Are you freaking kidding me??

This headline may be accurate only in the sense that an unbelievable DEPRESSION is on the horizon!! We're BROKE. Beyond BROKE actually -- TRILLIONS in debt on top of NO MONEY or assets.

Ex.. Cash for clunkers -- what a total, utter joke. The NET increase in sales on that program was 125,000 cars. It will prove to have made ZERO difference in ANYTHING except what amounts to taxpayer subsidization of car buyers' purchases.

Free market is gone in America (It's been going for the past 40 yrs)... and it's All Government All The Time at this point.

JM

GDP is crappy way to measure economic health.

Wars cause GDP to go up.

Coffin sales go up there, fer instance.

That noted, Spud feels at least a little better about Obama being in charge of the purse strings over the last gang of crooks.

A depression does seem invitable for America at some point unless the corporate welfare system is completely dismantled which will most likely never happen under either political party.

Be Well.

/Is 4:20 onna west coast and we all know wot that means.
//Exiting the DR fer a much needed *DB*
stage left.

"Exiting the DR fer a much needed *DB*
stage left."

Darn it....missed him again!!

Into every life a little rain must fall.

They were Ponzi Schemes from the beginning. They shouldn't have started. It's too late now.
How about if the federal government has to hyperinflate to get the money to pay for SS and Medicare. It's going to happen sooner or later. I'll collect SS until the money runs out.
We could also drop Medicaid and eliminate free public schools.
Government education is free? What are you smoking? I see costs between $10,000 and $15,000 a year per student. That's outrageous. That's going bankrupt too.

#195 | POSTED BY RAY AT 2009-10-29 08:31 PM


You are a hypocrite Ray. You don't care if they end after you die but not a day before. You deride social programs but you take advantage of them. You can't be against something you use. You are as bad as Nanc who also uses socialized medicine but says it's so horrible.

A friend's kid has leukemia.
Posted by Danforth at 2009-10-29 10:51 PM

Sorry to hear that.

"A friend's kid has leukemia."

I'm so sorry, Dan.

I hope they don't give up on hope!

Last year a friend of mine went into full remission with hers.

It truly was a miracle!!

Never give up hope!

You are a hypocrite Ray. You don't care if they end after you die but not a day before. You deride social programs but you take advantage of them. You can't be against something you use. You are as bad as Nanc who also uses socialized medicine but says it's so horrible.
#218 | POSTED BY JACKASS

You're in imbecile. How many ways can I tell you that the federal government is insolvent with debts too massive to pay off. We're sinking into the mother of all depressions.

Taxes on the level I pay are theft. What I get back from SS is small compensation. Medicare is useless to me. I didn't want any of it; it was forced on me.

Why do socialists have no concept of money? Especially when it is not theirs.

Recession Ends

Hallelujah-operation successful, however, the patient dies...

Taxes on the level I pay are theft.

I pay Taxes like you but you don't hear me bitching. If you think the govt is so insolvent send your checks back. You act like you are the only one in America that pays taxes. It costs money to pay fireman, teachers, cops and to keep the roads you use drivable. Do you feel you should be exempt from paying Taxes?

Ray you are 68 I'll bet you have been saying the sky has been falling your whole damn life yet it hasn't fallen yet. If it does you'll be dead. Quit worrying.

Ray how is medicare useless to you? You think you'll be able to get pvt insurance at 80? Fat chance.

If I didn't know better, I'd think some folks would rather see the recession continue than have any good news happen while Obama is president.

I'd rather see all Americans prosper, some useful and meaningful health care reform passed and various other things that could drive the economy skyward.

if President Obama is at the helm, fine.

I just find it fucking amazing that 8 months ago, "it was going to be a long, hard recovery and we might not see things turn around until next year, with continued growth for a couple of years after that".

You know what has me questioning our "surprise exit from the recession"? A year ago, it was the same explanation. "The damage done by 8 years of the Bush Administration will take more than a few months to repair...it's going to be a long recovery."

Now there's a democrat in office and everything is coming up mother-fuckin'-Milhouse.

You act like you are the only one in America that pays taxes. It costs money to pay fireman, teachers, cops and to keep the roads you use drivable.

Most of those are paid for by local and state taxes with the aide of federal dollars. So it's kinda like I've paid for it three times.

Ray you are 68 I'll bet you have been saying the sky has been falling your whole damn life yet it hasn't fallen yet. If it does you'll be dead. Quit worrying.

Since the 60s, I've been watching government grow faster than the private economy. I knew there would be a day when the economy would collapse under the weight of government. That time has come. Unlike you, I'm well tuned into financial events and the many frauds perpetrated by government.

Me and my kids are well stocked in gold and silver; I have no reason to worry. I've been warning others on this site for the past few years that they better start worrying. As for you. You deserve to suffer at the hands of your own criminal greed and stupidity.

Ray how is medicare useless to you? You think you'll be able to get pvt insurance at 80? Fat chance.

Maintaining health through diet, nutrition and exercise is an alien topic to you. I have no health problems that typically plague people my age.

Well Ray like I told you before your gold won't mean shit if we have an economic collapse of society. The only currency that will matter is lead. Ray you are 68 at 80 you might have cancer or something else. Your mind might slip and you'll need to be locked in a home while your kids blow all your gold savings. Ray if you ever suffer misfortune many on this site will celebrate your downfall. You might be the greediest person on this site.

I pay Taxes like you but you don't hear me bitching.

That's the difference between you and me. I don't mind taxes. But at the level of half of what I earn, they are criminal.

If you think the govt is so insolvent send your checks back.

That's dumb.

You act like you are the only one in America that pays taxes. It costs money to pay fireman, teachers, cops and to keep the roads you use drivable.

90% of what government does should be privatized.

Do you feel you should be exempt from paying Taxes?

I resent being forced to pay for anything I don't want or need. That gives me a perspective on the evils of government you don't have.

Socialists like you killed capitalism. Now all you have left is its dead corpse. You won't get very far on debt.

Ray - What good will all that gold and silver do if we have the sort of apocalyptic collapse you're talking about? The entire structure of society will come apart and we'll be at war with one another just to survive. Once people find out you've got a shitpile of precious metals you'll be a target. Hope you have weapons.

Well Ray like I told you before your gold won't mean shit if we have an economic collapse of society.

You don't know shit about the nature of money.

The only currency that will matter is lead.

Live by the sword; die by the sword

Ray you are 68 at 80 you might have cancer or something else. Your mind might slip and you'll need to be locked in a home while your kids blow all your gold savings. Ray if you ever suffer misfortune many on this site will celebrate your downfall.

It's just like socialists to hate free thinkers like me.

You might be the greediest person on this site.
#227 | POSTED BY JACKASS

That's funny. A certified crook calling his victim greedy.

I resent being forced to pay for anything I don't want or need.

Yeah, but you're not self sufficient, are you? I don't much feel like paying for the road to your house. Or your police dept. It's called society.


Socialists like you killed capitalism.

Capitalists are killing capitalism. Have been since they quit making THINGS and decided to make money just moving money around.

What good will all that gold and silver do if we have the sort of apocalyptic collapse you're talking about?

That depends on how far and how hard the fall is. If folks aren't able to feed themselves, food and the means to procure it will be far more valuable than metal.

Ray - What good will all that gold and silver do if we have the sort of apocalyptic collapse you're talking about? The entire structure of society will come apart and we'll be at war with one another just to survive. Once people find out you've got a shitpile of precious metals you'll be a target. Hope you have weapons.
#229 | POSTED BY CBOB

I've been calling this a severe depression. Where do you get this apocalyptic stuff from?

The beauty of owning gold and silver is the privacy it offers. The certain loss is in assets denominated in dollars, like real estate, stocks, bonds and pensions.

#231 | POSTED BY TEDBAXTER

Yeah, but you're not self sufficient, are you? I don't much feel like paying for the road to your house. Or your police dept. It's called society.

I just got done saying I don't mind paying taxes when they are reasonable. Current levels cross the line into criminal theft.

Capitalists are killing capitalism. Have been since they quit making THINGS and decided to make money just moving money around.

Capitalism died in the early 70s. What you call capitalism is corporatism. Rule by corporations would be impossible without government sanction. We have the best politicians money can buy.

That's one of the sad things about why this country is in decline. Voters gave away their freedom to the political class.

Ray -
What do you suggest people do with their 401(k) money - cash them in and buy gold?

CBOB

Get out of 401K and cut your losses. Silver coins are a much better buy than gold. Either silver eagles or junk silver which are coins minted up to 1964.

If you do some research you'll find that since 2000, silver and gold are in the early stages of a long uptrend, while the dollar is in a long term downtrend. They tend to move in opposite directions.

Ray envisions himself as a modern day John Galt. I'm sure Ray makes a decent living even after he pays his taxes. If you hate Taxes Ray you don't have to live in NJ. Move to South Carolina or someplace like that. Your wages won't be shit though.

Here Rogers. Here's a site with lots of graphs and easy to digest statistics for those who can handle truth. ... Can you?

How does my acknowledgement of the truth that we have left the recession mean that I can't handle truth? I didn't say that our economy has fully recovered or that our job market is healthy or our housing market isn't in the toilet. I said that the recession has ended.

The health of the economy is covered by a lot of different metrics. The rise and fall of the Gross Domestic Product per quarter is one of them.

Your suggestion that I'm in denial about something, because I've reported the factually accurate claim that we're out of a recession, is absurd.

Ray envisions himself as a modern day John Galt. I'm sure Ray makes a decent living even after he pays his taxes. If you hate Taxes Ray you don't have to live in NJ. Move to South Carolina or someplace like that. Your wages won't be shit though.
#237 | POSTED BY JACKASS

There he goes again, a self confessed socialist crook who thinks his victims shouldn't complain.

Hey Ray, I don't like paying for wars or killing american criminals.

But I don't get to call the shots on where my taxes are spent.

And here is the kicker.

YOU DON'T EITHER.

The sooner you learn to deal with that reality, the sooner you'll stop crying about things you cannot control.

Give it a shot if you are able.

ROFLMAO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
!!!!!!!

When will the idiots learn the numbers don't lie. Sure you can increase GDP by spending money in the government sector, however, you have to have spending in the other two sectors of measurement to have true growth. Once again BULLSHIT is being shoveled down the masses throat. Just wait for the commercial real-estate bubble to burst and then we shall see how they like this so called GDP growth.

WTFUA!

Just wait for....

I will if you will.

Bet you can't.

I didn't say that our economy has fully recovered or that our job market is healthy or our housing market isn't in the toilet. I said that the recession has ended.
#238 | POSTED BY RCADE

How can there be even a partial recovery when GNP includes a huge surge in government spending? Roosevelt and Hoover could never get unemployment below 10%. When you look at the BLS U-6 table, unemployment is over 16%. If it wasn't for $8,000 government subsidy, housing would look a lot worse. Now they come of with an absurd oxymoron to explain it away by calling it an "jobless recovery." There is no such thing. The rate of layoffs hasn't even abated. Housing foreclosures are on the precipice of another upsurge as another wave of adjustable rate mortgages reset.

Your suggestion that I'm in denial about something, because I've reported the factually accurate claim that we're out of a recession, is absurd.

If you looked at the link I posted, your eyes must have glazed over the pages. If you are not in denial, then you're allowing yourself to be fooled by the sharks in Wall Street, and Washington.

The Federal Reserve is running the greatest Ponzi Scheme in history. It requires new debt to be created faster than old debt can paid off. Our economy is stuffed to the gills with debt without any means of paying. If you want to believe the criminals that have destroyed the market economy, that's your business.

The sooner you learn to deal with that reality, the sooner you'll stop crying about things you cannot control.
Give it a shot if you are able.
#240 | POSTED BY MANYPATHS

It is true I can't control what others do, but I can control what I do. If you don't mind allowing yourself to be screwed, that's your business. Reality will catch up to you eventually.

If we go back to a marginal tax rate of 90% I'm sure we could pull ourselves out of debt.

Reality will catch up to you eventually.

#244 | Posted by Ray

Like a dow at 1200? Dude, you're wrong. Deal with it.

If we go back to a marginal tax rate of 90% I'm sure we could pull ourselves out of debt.
#245 | POSTED BY JACKASS

There isn't enough money in the universe.

Like a dow at 1200? Dude, you're wrong. Deal with it.
#246 | POSTED BY MANYPATHS

Here's the deal.

First of all, I said 1400. That might be optimistic.
Second, stocks are still in a bear market.
Third, the Federal Reserve has been stuffing Wall Street with money to buy stocks.
Fourth, we'll be lucky if we don't have a full collapse before this is over.

Here's more evidence of fraud with numbers. It shows GDP going from -6.4% to +3.5% in two quarters. That can only be done with magic money.

3.bp.blogspot.com

A lot of you mock Ray but maybe some of the things Ray says aren't way off the map. I've personally been in gold and silver since the early 2000s due to what I saw happening over the last 20 years (probably even further when you look over events the last 100 years). Then when Greenspan lowered rates to 1% and Bush and congress spent money without any curbs I was pretty sure of my decision and continue to be. Also for those that say capitalism is killing itself Ray to me is correct in saying that we haven't had true capitalism but instead "corporatism." Actually we have had a symbiotic socialistic system between corporations (especially investment bankers e.q. Goldman Sachs) for years. True capitalism doesn't want government involvement-- as they would say "let it be." The incestuous relationship between corporations (particularly banking) has been a big part of the problem and there has been no "change."

The symbiotic socialistic system and incestuous relationship I was referring to is between corporations (particularly investment banking ) and government.

Here's a chart that shows GDP as year over year percentage terms. That tiny up tick is supposed to be the beginning of a recovery.
2.bp.blogspot.com

I can't get over the fact that politicians lie almost all the time, yet so many allow themselves to be fooled time after time, always forgetting the last lie. Politics has become a religion.

I do feel rhat we're in the process of a recovery, however it will be tenuous at best and will not be driven by consumers (70% of the economy) but instead by business and capital expenditures. That's why this "recovery" will be difficult and why government will continue to ultimately throw money intermittently at this thing. The dollar will continue to weaken yet the markets should trend higher (for awhile).

"positive GDP growth is an encouraging sign that the U.S. "........


.....taxpayer has footed the bill for a loan to the govt for Cash For Clunkers and Tax Credits on homes among other things.


Yep, heckuva a job there half.......Hussein. (More PC use for a left leaning site)

Yep. When GNP is rising along with rising unemployment, bankruptcies and foreclosures, that's a sign of inflation not a so-called 'jobless recovery'.
This chart shows GNP rising during the 30s.

2.bp.blogspot.com

Are you paying attention, Rogers?

Are you paying attention, Rogers?

Stop calling me out like you're the guy on the street with the clapboard that reads "The End is Nigh."

I regard the economy as voodoo. Any time I've tried to apply principles of logic to it -- like when I traded stocks in the '90s -- I'd just get burned while more irrational people made out like bandits.

I just watch the metrics, like the GDP and others, and hope for the best.


Rogers,

For all his claims of rationality and logic, Ray has set himself up as an economic praxeologist.

docs.google.com

He apparently truly enjoys the fringe, whether the subject be economics, physics, or religion.

Hey gang, Ray's looking good today-- the market's turning over and if some technicals break down, watch out below. Gold has sold off minimally-- o.k. smart guys what does that tell you?

Stop calling me out like you're the guy on the street with the clapboard that reads "The End is Nigh."

Now you're being dishonest. I said we are into a depression that will be worse than the 30s. That's a qualitative judgment based on a lot of study and observation, along with sources who know finance better than me. I can't quantify it or time it with any precision.

I just watch the metrics, like the GDP and others, and hope for the best.

I just produced a chart that showed we had rising GDP during the 30s. That contradicts your belief that a rising GNP signals a recovery, albeit a weak one.

I made my case as best I could on this forum. What more can I say, Rogers?

He apparently truly enjoys the fringe, whether the subject be economics, physics, or religion.
#256 | POSTED BY CORKY

I wasn't cursed with the instinct to conform to herd thinking. My engineering and professional training teaches to look at the world as it is, not as I want it to be, or what others think it should be. I really don't enjoy it. But it's the price I had to pay. I do wish human society was more rational.

docs.google.com
#256 | POSTED BY CORKY

Knowing Corky's short attention span, he didn't read the article. What Corky thought was an essay against Mises was in support of Mises. Mises argued that the laws of economics are universal, not different across nation and culture. It's a refutation of the philosophy of exceptionalism, as commonly believed by conceited Americans.

This is Obama's "MISSION ACCOMPLISHED" moment if he runs with this.

When I am making twice what I'm making now like I used to, I'll buy it...until then, it doesn't matter what the definition of recession is, the economy still sucks bad.

We are in a deleveraging cycle and government and others got us there-- government currently is going to help us dig a deeper hole.

Bocaink, even thogh I don't agree with some of your positions via your postings, my condolences regarding your income situation--we wouldn't be in this position if we had some adults in washington, federal reserve, sec, wallstreet, etc. over the years.

The GDP data aren't nearly as strong as they seem on first glance. More than half of the GDP increase was due to cash-for-clunkers; more than half of the rest was due to inventory rebuilds. The growth of the economy ex- those factors was 0.7%, annualized.

And today's consumer purchasing number was a disaster, the first decline in four months.

I don't believe we're in a recovery. Things are getting bad less quickly than before, but that's not the same thing.

MatSTOP,

seriously dude, This is one giant clusterfuck caused by an 8 year clusterfuck on wall street, based on either complicity by the government, or sheer ignorance based on unmolested Smithism...business is going to take whatever they can get away with. Government's job is to restrain the "id" of the business world...the republicans became the "id." So, while I wished Obama's view on recovery was more in line with mine, you've got another thing coming if you think I'ma let ya throw the blame on 200 day old presidency throwing the kitchen sink at a catastrophe caused by people who share your viewpoints on economics and government. Yes I wish the stimulus was more targeted toward job creation (this "saving jobs" is bullshit), and I've been vehemently against the fucking TARP bailout...that was also Bush's deal...(TALC is another issue like the bailout).

But for God's sake, point the finger in the right direction like an adult.

But I do appreciate the sympathies, that and four bucks will at least let me get a starbucks and think about the good old days when "skilled" labor had value.


I think the recession is technically over but we are not out of the woods economically until the huge amounts of vacant homes are sold to buyers who can actually pay for them and that won't happen until there are jobs. It will be a long and slow recovery with some ups and some downs but overall it will probably continue along like it is right now for a year or two.

#67 | Posted by danni at 2009-10-29 03:17 PM |


Sure it will. As we continue to sell off our beef herd, pork herd, make chickens and eggs less available and more expensive and in general sell off our ability to feed ourselves.

No longer manufacturing our own steel, aluminum, glass, plastic and a plethora of other once common material used to make tools will surely help us. Right?

Let's go with the premise that many who study the bible use, that the book of Revelation has already occured. That would make the book of Revelation a history book and we all know the famous statement, "those that don't know history are doomed to repeat it.

I give you Revelation 18:22 as study material.

As ususal, Ray hits the nail on the head. Government nor individuals can borrow and spend their way out of a recession. We've already been sold out by our politicians over several decades, and simpletons (many with college degrees in economics and other degrees of indoctrination) still can't see the forest for the trees.

One of the most interesting threads here, ever.

#182 Mutant - Why did everyone ignore this post?

Reagan proved they don't matter. Remember? And he also proved that even 12% unemployment doesn't matter. Remember? He is the Right's economic wizard. Remember?

#85 | Posted by Manypaths at 2009-10-29 03:34 PM


Regan didn't prove it doesn't matter he just died before the road came to an end.

Emerging countries with economies 3 decades after his tenure who no longer need our foundries, glass plants and machinery manufacture etc. etc. etc. blah blah blah, won't care about worthless paper.
Hell, it's less than paper nowadays. It's just numbers in a computer. Ones and Zeros, I think.


Oh cool, the recession's over. I'm sure the 20 Million unemployed people in America will be happy to hear this news.

#120 | Posted by JOE at 2009-10-29 04:10 PM |


Well at least the 10 million drawing maximum benefits and extended extensions.

WORK HARDER! Millions of people unwilling to do whatever job is available are depending on YOU.

#268

Quite frankly, I'd like to see nothing more than what Mutant described, I've yet to see that kind of economic movement in my line of work, which is directly tied to the necessity of quickly moving inventories. I make money when IT infrastructures are built and maintained...expanding stores means parts need to be moved quickly, or shipped ASAP. Just like with the whole electronic medical records transfer. That would be a boon for the IT and logistics industries. Either it hasn't started yet or it is having no effect. It's been a downward spiral since May 2008...and still getting worse. You look in the classifieds and most jobs seem to be Army or MLM.

I hope it's true but I haven't seen much evidence to support it.


I know more about people and jobs then you'll ever know.

#145 | Posted by Manypaths at 2009-10-29 05:05 PM


I'm curious as to what necessary consumable you're involved in producing.

#265---Bocaink, what you and other posters don't get is that this and past governments have been in bed with wallstreet and especially investmant bankers and the banking industry for years---both parties are controlled by these folks and vice versa. Your buddy, Obummer, is no different--look at the people around him for goodness sake. Now, I'm going to educate you a little bit. First, my disclaimer, I don't hang with either party or ideology but look for the truth. Let's take a democrat, Bill Clinton, who all you hardcore democrats rally around. Billy boy almost looked like a repub on many occasions. Billy cut the capital gains tax on investment vehicles from 28%- 20% (if my recollection is accurate). He also cut the capital gains taxes to ZERO on the sale of houses of up to the first $500,000-- this was one of many policy decisions that helped foster the housing bubble. Then he was instrumental with the repugs in reformation of welfare. So don't tell me about the huge difference between the parties and the lack of responsibily of one of them. One of these days you partisans will get a clue. And by the way, I'd love to tell you more but I think it would be too esoteric for you to grasp.


Free Public schools? WTF are you on tonight?

#196 | Posted by wisgod at 2009-10-29 08:32 PM |


He doesn't own any real estate and his land lord has never shown him a tax bill.

That's funny, but it's still dead wrong. The end of the recession is good news no matter what happens tomorrow. The number of people refusing to acknowledge a bit of good news is ridiculous. Surely you must be as sick as I am of reading negative assessments of the economy and eager to see the economy stop circling the drain.

#201 | Posted by rcade at 2009-10-29 08:43 PM


Priceless !

Is it dark in there, Ostrich?

The stimulus costs taxpayers $160,000 per "job?"

The recession is only getting started.


I just want to report to you guys that I just woke up, so therefore, the wisdom of the ages does not exist anymore, only what i see in front of my nose exists.

---Ray-----

As much as I would like to agree with RCADE, I don't here.

This is only foolery to even begin to think it has ended. The GDP growth was only achieved through our tax dollars being spent wastedly by the government.

Through all this growth...WHAT WAS PRODUCED????

In order to have growth we must produce something and the government spending money to finance wizards hasn't produced a damn thing.

RIR talks about the cash for clunkers, well those cars were already produced and the dealers are not back filling after cars are sold so even less cars are being produced not more.

Just got to like all the magic numbers this wasted party of misfits are coming up with. Rather they just tell the truth so we could have a clear path to recovery.

Agreed, MON. That was my point in post #7.

But the GDP story helps Dems look better headed into the November elections. And you and I both realize the media's not going to articulate the things you did in #278.

Frankly, I don't think the GDP report will have any impact on the elections.

#277 | POSTED BY LIPZOIDIAL

Don't know what the hell he is talking about. Some people like this one are just asking to get screwed.

According to wisdom of the ages, you can't spend your way out of a problem caused by too much spending. It's easy to see when you are not willfully blind.

Obama is baiting us for the Unemployment numbers due next week.


WASHINGTON (AP) -- President Barack Obama on Saturday tempered excitement about a growing economy with a sober outlook that more people will lose their jobs. He called that a heartbreaking reality and cautioned that even a burst of upbeat news "does not mean there won't be difficult days ahead.".......

finance.yahoo.com

The question is how far are they determined to lie to keep unemployment statistics under 10%. They should have been over 10% long ago. One analyst I read regularly noticed that when he added up unemployment for each state, they were way over the headline 9.8% from the BLS (BuLShit).

Never never trust government statistics.

Recession ends:--- Oh yea try to convince the 9 banks the Feds closed yesterday that recession has ended!!! What a laugh...

The new jobs cost the taxpayers 160,000.00 for each and every so called job the stimalus plan supposedly created, in the news today...

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