Drudge Retort: Red Meat for Yellow Dogs

A Phoenix newspaper has corrected a report that falsely stated Supreme Court Justice Antonin Scalia said in a speech he would have dissented in the landmark Brown vs. Board of Education decision that ended school segregation based on race. (Note: This item has been updated to reflect the correction.)

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Wow. Wonder how Clarence Thomas feels about Scalia writing all his "opinions" for him now?

Headline's not really what he said. But Doc has probably run along to teach another class of yokels his slanted view of history.

I had a prof like him in college myself. An "A" was assured if you thought to yourself, what would a libbie write here for this essay question?

Scalia said he likely would have dissented from the historic 1954 Brown v. Board of Education decision that declared school segregation illegal and struck down the system of "separate but equal'' public schools.

"Wonder how Clarence Thomas feels about Scalia writing all his "opinions" for him now?"

Hard to tell. I don't believe he's asked a question in, what, four years?

"The whole purpose of a constitution is to constrain the desires of the current society."

The meaning behind a statement like that would make for interesting discussion.

This guy is a moron. The court did NOT rule for Brown to contradict the constitution but rather to enforce the Equal Protection Clause of the Fourteenth Amendment of the United States Constitution.

Imagine this guy sitting on the court judging when he has such a lack of basic understanding.

"Scalia said he likely would have dissented from the historic 1954 Brown v. Board of Education decision that declared school segregation illegal and struck down the system of "separate but equal'' public schools."

In the context of the times back in "1954," he MIGHT have done that. I doubt he would do it today. Members of the Supreme Court are products of our society at the time. Just take a look at Supreme Court decisions back in the 18th and 19th centuries that would NEVER be remotely considered today.

A conlaw professor at Yale says the article is a lie.

balkin.blogspot.com

I'm letting the video load, I'll watch it myself and type exactly what he said.

Scalia believes in an "originalist" view of the Constitution....whenever it is convenient for corporations. Corporate personhood is absolutely, positively not part of the original Constitution nor the intent of any of its authors....and he knows that. He is a dishonest, bought and paid for, corporate lackey.

"I'm letting the video load, I'll watch it myself and type exactly what he said.

#8 | Posted by JOE "

How much you bill per hour to watch a video?

What would be the chances of an Italian Catholic getting appointed to the Supreme Court in 1954?

"Corporate personhood"

"I hope that we shall crush in its birth the aristocracy of our monied corporations, which dare already to challenge our government to a trial of strength, and bid defiance to the laws of our country."
- Thomas Jefferson

Sorry, TJ, guess that one didn't work out so well.
consumerist.com

"The only thing you can be sure of is the Constitution will mean whatever the American people want it to mean today,'' Scalia said. "And that's not what a Constitution is for. The whole purpose of a constitution is to constrain the desires of the current society.''


I agree with the first part. He loses me on "The whole purpose of a constitution is to constrain the desires of the current society." The Constitution has noting to do with society and that was one of the major problems that lead to the Bill of Rights. The Constitution deals only with what the Federal Government can do and should do. The Bill of Rights then limits that power and defaults to the public in most conflicts between the two.

It amazes me how Scalia and I can agree on every aspect of the Constitution except what it means.


What would be the chances of an Italian Catholic getting appointed to the Supreme Court in 1954?

#11 | Posted by TFDNihilist

What would be the chances of having one today if this racist pig of a Justice had supported segregation in the 50's?

No wonder the righties love this guy.......

Fuck you Scalia. Fuck you and your skin color views.

Scalia is reading the "Tyranny of the Majority" in the Constitution which makes him guilty of what he hates: find words that are not in the Constitution.

"I agree with the first part. He loses me on "The whole purpose of a constitution is to constrain the desires of the current society."

I THINK he means that, for instance, if the current society wants to restrain criticism of our current president and congress, it would be prohibited by the First Amendment to the Constitution.

Sure enough, Scalia didn't say he would have dissented in Brown v. Board. He said he would have joined Justice Harlan in dissenting in Plessy v. Ferguson. Here is the exact quote, from the video.

As for Brown v. Board of Education, I think I would have, you know, Justice Harlan, in Plessy v. Ferguson, which is the case that Brown overruled, came out on the other side, and I would have been with him as an originalist, because you begin with the text and it was a text that prohibited racial disc, and although some states continued to have schools like that, some abolished segregated schools after it was passed, but regardless, don't make up your mind on this significant question between originalism and playing it by ear on the basis of whether now and then, the latter approach might give you the result you want. I will stipulate that it will, you know, kings can do some stuff, good stuff, that a democratic society can never do. The test is over the long run, does it require the society to adhere to those principles contained in the Constitution or does it lead to a society governed by 9 justices' version of what equal protection ought to mean?

I had a prof like him in college myself. An "A" was assured if you thought to yourself, what would a libbie write here for this essay question?

#2 | Posted by rightisright

You don't realy believe she is a doc, do you?

"I had a prof like him in college myself."

It works both ways. I've had professors who were very conservative and who taught their view of economics as if it were fact instead of theory.

Sorry, TJ, guess that one didn't work out so well.
consumerist.com

#12 | Posted by Zatoichi at 2009-10-27 02:00 PM | Reply | Flag:Gee Zat, guess this one crashed and burned as well:

"To take from one because it is thought that his own industry and that of his father's has acquired too much, in order to spare to others, who, or whose fathers, have not exercised equal industry and skill, is to violate arbitrarily the first principle of associationthe guarantee to every one of a free exercise of his industry and the fruits acquired by it."

Do you people ever tire of chasing the Scalia boogeyman only to have Joe show up and slap the taste out of your mouths?

Is there one, just one Scalia thread, where he hasn't shut you limpwristed fucks up?

I agree with the first part. He loses me on "The whole purpose of a constitution is to constrain the desires of the current society." The Constitution has noting to do with society and that was one of the major problems that lead to the Bill of Rights. The Constitution deals only with what the Federal Government can do and should do. The Bill of Rights then limits that power and defaults to the public in most conflicts between the two.

#13 | Posted by kanrei

You are close sweet cheeks. The constitution does say what the government is to do. There is no conflict between that and the bill of rights.

The only way you can create a conflict is to mis-read the following; Section 8
The Congress shall have Power To lay and collect Taxes, Duties, Imposts and Excises, to pay the Debts and provide for the common Defense and general
Welfare of the United States; but all Duties, Imposts and Excises shall be uniform throughout the United States;

The general welfare of the US has to do with the protection of the US, not to provide all social programs the libs want.

"The general welfare of the US has to do with the protection of the US, not to provide all social programs the libs want."

Well, that's one interpretation.

Another might be that nothing is more important to the general welfare as the general health.

The constitution does say what the government is to do. There is no conflict between that and the bill of rights.

Never said there was.


"The general welfare of the US has to do with the protection of the US, not to provide all social programs the libs want."


That has been my argument all along, but if you think it then I really need to reconsider my position.

Just to be perfectly clear, to Starvis and others, Scalia did not say he would have kept schools segregated. He did not say he would have dissented from Brown v. Board.

He said he would have joined in the dissent from Plessy v. Ferguson, a case where the majority upheld a "separate but equal" statute, and where the dissent said the Constitution should be color-blind.

From the opinion Scalia actually said he would have joined:

The arbitrary separation of citizens on the basis of race while they are on a public highway is a badge of servitude wholly inconsistent with the civil freedom and the equality before the law established by the Constitution. It cannot be justified upon any legal grounds

Another might be that nothing is more important to the general welfare as the general health.

#24 | Posted by Danforth


The founders went into a fair deal of specificity regarding what things treasury monies could be spent on. You have to make the constitutional argument that they didn't mean any of it because the little welfare clause actually supercedes everything else because it can be interpretted to mean literally anything. It's as if the welfare clause nullifies (throwing Nulli a bone with this word) all of the other restrictions the constitution placed on spending federal tax dollars.

If you pick up the document and read it for yourself (which I tend to believe you have) I can't fathom how any person could draw such a conclusion.


Do you people ever tire of chasing the Scalia boogeyman only to have Joe show up and slap the taste out of your mouths?


Is there one, just one Scalia thread, where he hasn't shut you limpwristed fucks up?

#21 | Posted by 101Chairborne

I can't think of one.

Sucks to be a conservative doesn't it sniper.

It is a tough job.

Without the General health provided for by the General Welfare clause You have national security issues with regards to commmunicable diseases. Oh and You reduction of productivity because of sick citizenry so Yes JeffJ it is qa General Welfare issue.

Larry


Without the General health provided for by the General Welfare clause You have national security issues with regards to commmunicable diseases. Oh and You reduction of productivity because of sick citizenry so Yes JeffJ it is qa General Welfare issue.


Larry

#31 | Posted by LarryMohr


You can't make that argument on the basis of the text.

Anything could be argued as a 'general welfare' issue therefore that little clause puts ZERO restrictions on what the federal government can spend treasury dollars on.

If you read the document in its entirety, and resist the urge to cherry-pick a portion of one sentence, you can't make you argument on the grounds of the text itself.

You can't.

The Consitution lists the items that can be allocated federal tax dollars, all other monies spent are deferred to the state vis a vis the 10th Ammendment.

you = your

Give me a break. Joe is an idiot. Lawyers get paid by the hour. Joe spends all his time here.

You really fall for that shit Chair? Thought you were smarter than that.

Joe, you trying to say Scalia wouldn't have dissented or are you just splitting your pussy hairs again?


The Consitution lists the items that can be allocated federal tax dollars, all other monies spent are deferred to the state vis a vis the 10th Ammendment.

Posted by JeffJ at 2009-10-27 02:29 PM | Reply


No Sir but keep up with Your delusions JeffJ. The Federal Government isn't limited to the list and You bknow it. Sucks to be You. Talk to MonteCVore sometime He'll set You straight.

Larry

Just to be perfectly clear, to Starvis and others, Scalia did not say he would have kept schools segregated. He did not say he would have dissented from Brown v. Board.


So the title of the thread is a 100% lie?

Okay, so let's discuss (and misintrepret)the General Welfare clause instead.

LOL

#34 | Posted by Manypaths

Joe provided Scalia's actual words in their entirety, not just some carefully-edited bullshit attempting to paint Scalia's views in a manner that is contradictory to his stated position.

In short, he bitch-slapped you.

Deal with it.

"Do you people ever tire of chasing the Scalia boogeyman only to have Joe show up and slap the taste out of your mouths?"

You speaking to me??? I haven't read any post of Joe's or anyone else's that makes a convincing case that corporate personhood could be interpreted using "originalism."

Oh and not to change the subject but why can't I find that puff piece thaty You and That other dude linked to. Why can't I get an independenent website for it ?? The only ones that I can find are heavy duty pro GOP supporter websites. Care to explain THAT to Me??

Larry

Just to be perfectly clear, Scalia said he agreed with the decision that Brown overturned and therefore would have dissented in Brown.

Don't let the Joe the Clerk try to tell you anything differently.

"Scalia said he agreed with the decision that Brown overturned and therefore would have dissented in Brown."

No, he didn't. He said he agreed with the dissent in the decision Brown overturned. Don't let Manypaths the dumbfuck try to tell you anything differently.

No Sir but keep up with Your delusions JeffJ. The Federal Government isn't limited to the list and You bknow it.


Not anymore - you are correct on that.

The New Deal was unconsitutional, but FDR cowed SCOTUS into compliance with his failed court-packing scheme. Once that happened, the floodgates were opened.

For the first 150 years of this country was structured very much in the manner that current Libertarians favor now - it was socially Darwinistic in the sense of government's involvement in administering charity. 150 years of case law backs this up. Sans a constitutional ammendment or 3, the New Deal and Great Society were flagrantly unconsitutional. Now, as a society we are so heavily-invested in those programs that I believe that Stare Decisis would take precedent if their constitutionality were challenged today. Having said that, the case can be clearly made that a public option is unconstitutional - which it is. I am not so sure the court would argue that Stare Decisis in regards to Medicare would apply to new government programs that are unconstitutional.

The political left absolutely shredded the Constitution 70 years ago, which is why I find their outrage over an unattributed "God Damn piece of paper!" comment from the last president. The political left only supports constitutionality when it suits there purposes. When the document becomes inconvenient, they just torture the shit out of the text and cherry-pick it to the nth degree in order to substantiate their agenda.

When I read the Constitution I also read the Declaration of Independence, because that tells us why they wanted to form this country.

So when I read the quote from the Declaration of Independence "We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal" That is what the Founders intent was when they created this Nation.
So how could segregating someone based on race support that basic idea it does the exact opposite.

As usaual the libbies dont read and cant understand the text but feel they need to comment. Kinda like the helathcare bill they dont read and dont undersatnd, but they want to vote on anyway. They are determined in there ways regardless of the facts.

You don't like it JeffJ because You don't like social Welfare. We have been over that stench before. It's Bullshit to the nth degree. But do carry on JeffJ. You are a good friend but You justy stink politically.

Larry

The arbitrary separation of citizens on the basis of race while they are on a public highway is a badge of servitude wholly inconsistent with the civil freedom and the equality before the law established by the Constitution. It cannot be justified upon any legal grounds

Scalia is correct here but it is a double edge and he is saying we violated one edge.


The political left only supports constitutionality when it suits there purposes. When the document becomes inconvenient, they just torture the shit out of the text and cherry-pick it to the nth degree in order to substantiate their agenda.

#42 | POSTED BY JEFFJ AT 2009-10-27 02:41 PM

Your side does the same damn thing. Warrantless wire taps. Illegal search and seizure. Extraordinary rendition. Neither side cares about the constitution. Which is ok by me since I think the constitution needs to be updated as we go. It's a living document not a dead one in my eyes.

"That is what the Founders intent was when they created this Nation.
So how could segregating someone based on race support that basic idea it does the exact opposite."

Of course, what qualified as a "man" might muddy your point a bit.

#23 | Posted by LarryMohr

You're so full of shit it's running down Your legs. You betcha the General Welfare has to do with social helps. and anything else congress deams to be a general welfare issue. Sucks to be a conservative doesn't it sniper.
---------------
If that is true and it's not, then why did the Founders tell widows from the Revolutionary war who came to them for public assistance to go out and have a dollar dance to raise some money or ask your state to take care of you, and that it was not the feds responsibilty to take care of you.

You speaking to me??? I haven't read any post of Joe's or anyone else's that makes a convincing case that corporate personhood could be interpreted using "originalism."

#38 | Posted by danni

The case cited in this thread has nothing to do with corporate personhood.


You don't like it JeffJ because You don't like social Welfare. We have been over that stench before. It's Bullshit to the nth degree. But do carry on JeffJ.

It has nothing to do with my like or dislike of social welfare. I just stated that I think it would be irresponsible to vanquish Medicare or Social Security. I am in favor of unemployment insurance. My beef with welfare has to do with all of the devesating unintended consequences.

The merit or lack thereof of these programs has nothing to do with the fact that the constitution had to be circumvented, sans a couple of Ammendments, in order to get them enacted.

You may want to re-think your argument if you are relegated to personally attacking my beliefs, which have nothing to do with the discussion at hand.

Which is ok by me since I think the constitution needs to be updated as we go. It's a living document not a dead one in my eyes.

#47 | Posted by jackass at 2009-10-27 02:46 PM

That would be the Ammendment process.

#42 | Posted by JeffJ at 2009-10-27 02:41 PM | Reply | Flag:

Another hyperbolic post without any validity. The tyrant runs among us.

"Hitler developed a wonderful automobile,'' Scalia said. "What does that prove?''

That you are an idiot.

Sir.

On the bright side, if Scalia had been a perpetual Supreme, Sarah would never have been the Veep candidate. If women couldn't vote, they sure couldn't get electd. Then again, Obama would only be in the WH to polish McCain's silverware.

Grover Cleveland, the last conservative Democratic president, agonized over the desire to use federal funds for disaster relief. He ultimately decided that as altruistic as that would be, it was not only unconstitutional, but would open up the can of worms for future unconstitutional use of the treasury monies.

I anxiously await Scalia's perspective on the abolition of slavery. Take note Clarence.

Another hyperbolic post without any validity. The tyrant runs among us.

#52 | Posted by moneywar

Except that I backed it up with a quick recitation of history.

Not to mention Woman's Suffrage. Pay attention Sonia and Ruthie.

It has nothing to do with my like or dislike of social welfare. I just stated that I think it would be irresponsible to vanquish Medicare or Social Security. I am in favor of unemployment insurance. My beef with welfare has to do with all of the devesating unintended consequences.

The difference here is real intellectual thinkers saw the devestating consequences it would have on the PEOPLE(POPULATION) and ruled in their favor instead of your beloved ECONOMIC favor.

You see, the intellectuals understood that the economy is suppose to be for the benefit of the PEOPLE not the business.

You may want to re-think your argument if you are relegated to personally attacking my beliefs, which have nothing to do with the discussion at hand.

Posted by JeffJ at 2009-10-27 02:49 PM | Reply


What is the problem JeffJ?? You have stated SEVERAL TIMES that You are against the Federal Government helping people out. Your solution has always been Private Charities Family etc etc. I know what You have postyed about. I have a mind like a trap. You have made all kinds of excuses that You claim the US Constitution doesn't cover General Welfare. It's there JeffJ. I can't help that.

Larry

Except that I backed it up with a quick recitation of history.

And what citation was that????

A bunch of opinionated conjecture is your citation? That's good, a real tyrant runs among us.

If Bork had been confirmed, Scalia would be considered a court lefty.

The difference here is real intellectual thinkers saw the devestating consequences it would have on the PEOPLE(POPULATION) and ruled in their favor instead of your beloved ECONOMIC favor.

No doubt - but they had to circumvent the process in order to do so.


You see, the intellectuals understood that the economy is suppose to be for the benefit of the PEOPLE not the business.

People and business are inter-related in a symbiotic way. That's the problem with your zero-sum paradigm. The people can't benefit from the economy unless business prospers.


You have made all kinds of excuses that You claim the US Constitution doesn't cover General Welfare. It's there JeffJ.

I am not in favor of tearing up the social safety net. Again, for a constitutional standpoint, you can ONLY make your argument if you ignore EVERYTHING else that is in the constitution, fixate on a partial sentence of "general welfare" and then define "general welfare" to mean whatever you want it to mean.


Larry,

JeffJ is like ray here. If the general welfare benefits the economic corporate business world then the welfare is great and correct, but if it removes it from the business corporate world and benefits the actual people then it is anti-constitution.

Didn't you know they think the constitution was for the corporate business.

Even Strom Thurmond would be shaking his head.

And what citation was that????

The unconstitutionality of the New Deal and Great Society and how they were achieved.

MW,

I am even more opposed to corporate welfare than public welfare.

I was staunchly opposed to TARP.

I was opposed to the stimulus bill.

I oppose subsidizing "green energy".

I oppose ethanol mandates.

I oppose farm subsidies.

Etc.


Ask yourself a serious question - why do you have to resort to falsely assigning positions to me that I haven't taken? It's pathetic and you make a fool of yourself every time you do it.

You want "shredding of the Constitution, I'll give you shredding.....

"The origins of corporate personhood in America are usually attributed to the Supreme Court case Santa Clara County v. Southern Pacific Railroad, heard in 1886, though in actuality this position was not established in the decision itself, but instead noted in a headnote to the decision as being previously established fact

"that The defendant Corporations are persons within the intent of the clause in section 1 of the Fourteen (sic) Amendment to the Constitution of the United States, which forbids a State to deny to any person within its jurisdiction the equal protection of the laws."

You have stated SEVERAL TIMES that You are against the Federal Government helping people out.


Those instances you so 'accurately' remember were the devastating unintended consequences that the welfare program inflicted on those it purported to help.

Sometimes, doing 'nothing' is better than doing 'something' if 'something' makes matters worse.

Yes MoneyWar JeffJ is a whore for the corporate big wigs. I know that. Just agrivates Me to no end. Just You wait someday somewhere JeffJ will fall off of His COrporate High Horse and come down to our level. He might not like the taste at first but He will come down to Our level. Probably when He is old and in a Nursing Home but the fuckers always come around in the end.

Larry

"that The defendant Corporations are persons within the intent of the clause in section 1 of the Fourteen (sic) Amendment to the Constitution of the United States, which forbids a State to deny to any person within its jurisdiction the equal protection of the laws."


So your argument is that a corporation, which is comprised of people, can be run rough-shod by government and doesn't deserve equal protections?

The major problem with Plessy v. Ferguson is that it endorsed a concept that was not only unenforceable but utterly unenforced. Seperate but equal only occurred in the rarest of circumstances and in the south not at all. I went to segregated schools and saw the schools that blacks went to, there was nothing equal with them, as I said, in the rarest of circumstance. There was no authority at any level that cared to address it until Brown v Board landed in their laps and they actually had to do something other than prove "on paper" that equality existed.

Those instances you so 'accurately' remember were the devastating unintended consequences that the welfare program inflicted on those it purported to help.


Sometimes, doing 'nothing' is better than doing 'something' if 'something' makes matters worse.

#68 | Posted by JeffJ at 2009-10-27 03:05 PM | Reply | Flag: Flag: (Choose)
FunnyNewsworthyOffensiveAbusiv
e

Yeah it's betyter for the populace to starve than it is for the Government to feed them and clothe them. Yeah You're right it's better that this Rich COuntry not help out the lesser's. True abuses Might occur it's a whole lot better to provide for them than it is to let them starve. Only bastards would support doing nothing.

Larry

Yes MoneyWar JeffJ is a whore for the corporate big wigs.


Enough of this shit!


Reconcile that comment with this and quit actinig like a douchebag:

I am even more opposed to corporate welfare than public welfare.


I was staunchly opposed to TARP.


I was opposed to the stimulus bill.


I oppose subsidizing "green energy".


I oppose ethanol mandates.


I oppose farm subsidies.


Etc.


So your argument is that a corporation, which is comprised of people, can be run rough-shod by government and doesn't deserve equal protections?


If the people as individuals have rights, then to suggest their being together also has rights really gives these individual extra rights. If each part of my car is insured, then it is pointless to insure the car as a whole unless the whole is worth more than the sum of its parts.

People and business are inter-related in a symbiotic way. That's the problem with your zero-sum paradigm. The people can't benefit from the economy unless business prospers.

This is where your intellect fails, business can't prosper unless the people prosper, that is fact.

The fact that you subscribe to people sacrificing prosperity to gain prosperity to the business is deluding. One business, many many people, the law of numbers is simple but it fails you.

Why would Doc_Sarvis feel the need to lie about Scalia? I just can't figure it out.

Yeah it's betyter for the populace to starve than it is for the Government to feed them and clothe them. Yeah You're right it's better that this Rich COuntry not help out the lesser's. True abuses Might occur it's a whole lot better to provide for them than it is to let them starve. Only bastards would support doing nothing.


Larry


How many times do I have to state that, on principle, I support much of the social safety net?

That is a completely seperate argument from correctly pointing out that said help was unconstitutional.

Seriously dude, cut it out with the personal attacks. I am not attacking you personally, the least you could do is extend the same civility to me.

"So your argument is that a corporation, which is comprised of people, can be run rough-shod by government and doesn't deserve equal protections?"

No, my argument is that since the government charters a corporation then the government has the right to pass laws to control the corporation and taht the corporation itself has no right to participate in the democratic process by hiring lobbyists, contributing to campaigns, etc. The individual owners who are citizens would have those rights as individuals who live and die unlike corporations that can amass wealth over many generations and never die.


Why would Doc_Sarvis feel the need to lie about Scalia? I just can't figure it out.

#76 | Posted by LIVE_OR_DIE at 2009-10-27 03:10 PM | Reply


He didn't want Rush to feel bad for falling for a false story.

This is where your intellect fails, business can't prosper unless the people prosper, that is fact.

People can't prosper unless business prospers. Business provides the work that enable people to earn wages and prosper. Business has to prosper first. Without a prosperous business, there are no jobs. In this case, the egg (business) came before the chicken.


The fact that you subscribe to people sacrificing prosperity to gain prosperity to the business is deluding. One business, many many people, the law of numbers is simple but it fails you.

What? That doesn't make sense.


JeffJ,

Interesting, you are willing to sacrifice the prosperity of the people in order to keep your economic mantra of capitalistic privacy for nothing more than business prosperity. You have stated this action in almost all of your posts throughout the years I have known on drudge.

#28 | Posted by JeffJ

The founders went into a fair deal of specificity regarding what things treasury monies could be
spent on. You have to make the constitutional argument that they didn't mean any of it because the little welfare clause actually supercedes everything else because it can be interpretted to mean literally anything. It's as if the welfare clause nullifies (throwing Nulli a bone with this word) all of the other restrictions the constitution placed on spending federal tax dollars.


If you pick up the document and read it for yourself (which I tend to believe you have) I can't fathom how any person could draw such a conclusion.
--------------
Also Jeffj there is all kinds of quotes from the Founders in history books that document that they didn't believe in income taxes or anykind or income re-distribution.

Without the income tax it would have been hard to have income re-distribution or welfare and the Founders new this that is why only during war could you have a income tax, and the amendment to the Constitution to allow income tax didn't happend until Willson was elected president.

"Without a prosperous business, there are no jobs."

Actually there are jobs bevore there are businesses. There are "jobs" in a barter economy.
There are "jobs" in a primitive society where there are no businesses or even money.

No, my argument is that since the government charters a corporation then the government has the right to pass laws to control the corporation

This makes sense.

and taht the corporation itself has no right to participate in the democratic process by hiring lobbyists, contributing to campaigns, etc.

I disagree. The corporation still has a right to try and protect its own business interests.


The individual owners who are citizens would have those rights as individuals who live and die unlike corporations that can amass wealth over many generations and never die.

Plenty of large corporation have gone belly-up over the years.

So your argument is that a corporation, which is comprised of people, can be run rough-shod by government and doesn't deserve equal protections?

When a corporation can serve a prison sentence, or sit in the electric chair, you will have a point. Only real, live, existing human beings are entitled to constitutional rights, not artificial entities.

Unfortunately, there's no prospect in the short term for a SCOTUS ruling that corporate personhood is unconstitutional. Too many corporate whores on the court at the present.

#82 | Posted by 90c2cab

Agreed. But the founders also were pretty humble; they knew that circumstances could change to a point with the passage of time that would necessitate changing the constitution and they put in the Ammendment process to address just that.

Income taxes are constitutional because the constitution was properly ammended to allow for them.

Seriously dude, cut it out with the personal attacks. I am not attacking you personally, the least you could do is extend the same civility to me.


Posted by JeffJ at 2009-10-27 03:10 PM | Reply
WHERE DID I ATTACK YOU PERSONALLY!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Come on JeffJ put up or shut up about that accusatyion. Thanks.

When a corporation can serve a prison sentence, or sit in the electric chair, you will have a point. Only real, live, existing human beings are entitled to constitutional rights, not artificial entities.


Unfortunately, there's no prospect in the short term for a SCOTUS ruling that corporate personhood is unconstitutional. Too many corporate whores on the court at the present.

#85 | Posted by nullifidian


You and Danni both raise excellent points - I actually agree with you two clowns on this! Oh, the horror!

"Too many corporate whores on the court at the present."

One of whom claims to be an "originalist."
I would laugh out loud if I ever was present when he uttered that.

When a corporation can serve a prison sentence, or sit in the electric chair, you will have a point. Only real, live, existing human beings are entitled to constitutional rights, not artificial entities.


fair point.

What if we gave no protection for board members or C-Level executives of corporations...meaning that they could not hide behind the corporation?

Unfortunately, there's no prospect in the short term for a SCOTUS ruling that corporate personhood is unconstitutional. Too many corporate whores on the court at the present.
#85 | Posted by nullifidian

Where are you going to find someone to vote for that is going to nominate a justice that would be open to that idea.

LOL

People can't prosper unless business prospers. Business provides the work that enable people to earn wages and prosper. Business has to prosper first.

People make the product first, one does not start a business without first producing a product.

I make shoes, I want to start a business selling my shoes so I make a bunch of shoes first....its simple.

Any chance that Scalia will hold court in
blackface for Halloween?

"Plenty of large corporation have gone belly-up over the years."

Corporations have been found guilty of committing criminal offenses, ever hear of one going to jail???

"Where are you going to find someone to vote for that is going to nominate a justice that would be open to that idea."

Chicago I think.

WHERE DID I ATTACK YOU PERSONALLY!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Come on JeffJ put up or shut up about that accusatyion. Thanks.


#87 | Posted by LarryMohr


Only bastards would support doing nothing.

Yes MoneyWar JeffJ is a whore for the corporate big wigs. I know that. Just agrivates Me to no end. Just You wait someday somewhere JeffJ will fall off of His COrporate High Horse and come down to our level. He might not like the taste at first but He will come down to Our level.

You don't like it JeffJ because You don't like social Welfare.



You had some other comments that were pretty condescending as well, but I'll stick with the obvious stuff for now.

"What if we gave no protection for board members or C-Level executives of corporations...meaning that they could not hide behind the corporation?"

Why not just stick to people are people and corporations are organizations for doing business not being citizens. All of the stock holers have rights, that should be enough. Giving the corporation rights too gives them more rights than the rest of us. This country would be far different right now if corporations could not use their money in our political process.

I make shoes, I want to start a business selling my shoes so I make a bunch of shoes first....its simple.

#92 | Posted by moneywar

Then you are a business comprised of one person who needs, usually, to borrow money for investment capital in order to start up your business. As your business prospers and grows you hire employees to take on the additional work.

It's simple.

Where are you going to find someone to vote for that is going to nominate a justice that would be open to that idea."

Find someone who would be open to that idea AND has a decent chance of getting elected and making those appointments is zero, at present.

In the meantime, we'll just have to settle for moderate liberals like Sotomayor over the reactionary picks Johnny Boom Boom and the Crazy Bitch would've made.

People make the product first, one does not start a business without first producing a product.


One can't produce a product without first being a business.

We are arguing semantics but it appears as if you and I are closer on this than it seems.

#86 | Posted by JeffJ

Income taxes are constitutional because the constitution was properly ammended to allow for them.
----------------------
I agree

The fact that you subscribe to people sacrificing prosperity to gain prosperity to the business is deluding. One business, many many people, the law of numbers is simple but it fails you.

What? That doesn't make sense.

#80 | Posted by JeffJ at 2009-10-27 03:13 PM | Reply | Flag

Yes, that's your problem, you're so blinded by your one sided business to worker reality that you wouldn't understand.

180,000 people labor for Boeing and Boeing is ONE. We should sacrifice the benefits from those 180,000 so the ONE boeing can benefit. Sound logical to me. :(

Johny Boom Boom?


I know you are talking about McCain, but I don't get the reference - I know, me not getting a joke. Shocking!


James Madison


"There are consequences, sir, still more extensive, which, as they follow clearly from the doctrine combated, must either be admitted, or the doctrine must be given up. If Congress can apply money indefinitely to the general welfare, and are the sole and supreme judges of the general welfare, they may take the care of religion into their own hands; they may establish teachers in every State, county, and parish, and pay them out of the public Treasury; they may take into their own hands the education of children establishing in like manner schools throughout the Union; they may undertake the regulation of all roads, other than post roads. In short, everything, from the highest object of State legislation, down to the most minute object of police, would be thrown under the power of Congress; for every object I have mentioned would admit the application of money, and might be called if Congress pleased provisions for the general welfare."

Find=finding

180,000 people labor for Boeing and Boeing is ONE. We should sacrifice the benefits from those 180,000 so the ONE boeing can benefit.

don't they have a union? isn't that constitutional as well?

180,000 people labor for Boeing and Boeing is ONE. We should sacrifice the benefits from those 180,000 so the ONE boeing can benefit.

Diminishing compensation always sucks. However, sometimes it's a necessity. The auto industry is a case in point. When legacy costs etc. are factored in, domestic automakers pay roughly $30 more per labor hour than their Japanese counterparts. That is simply unsustainable and is certainly a significant factor in the demise of domestic auto companies.

I had to take 2 weeks off this year unpaid. However, better that then the company going under and me being without a job altogether.

"I know you are talking about McCain, but I don't get the reference"

It's a variation on "Johnny Bomb Bomb" as in "bomb, bomb, bomb, bomb bomb Iran".

Then you are a business comprised of one person who needs, usually, to borrow money for investment capital in order to start up your business. As your business prospers and grows you hire employees to take on the additional work.

It's simple.

#98 | Posted by JeffJ at 2009-10-27 03:26 PM | Reply | Flag:

Yes it is simple, and what was first? The business or the person producing?????? Seems you purposely deleted this from your memory.

Societies evolve or die. To stick with an 18th century attitude would have condemnded us to an 18th century future. The difference is that Scalia does not see an evolving society or Constitution, and Breyer does see an evolving society and Constitution. Except that Scalia changes the Constitution as he sees fit when it suits him, as in the scond amendment case where he completely ignored what the Constitution said, and made it say what he wanted. So Scalia TALKS about sticking with the original Consitution until it comes up with something he doesn't like---then he changes it to something he does like.

That people should be allowed to keep and bear arms in their homes to protect themselves was a GIVEN when the Constitution was written---much like people should be able to breath air, no matter their station in life, or their position on the planet. All men who wanted, and could afford them, could carry weapons, withut restriction. To make something so obvious into a LAW would have been seen as foolish as making it a right to ride a horse into town. What men DIDN'T have the right to do was to form Militias that could threaten a powerful central government. Men DID'T have the right to oppose a strong central government, and THAT was the right that was written into the second amendment---the right to form WELL REGULATED MILITIAS---like the State Militia, now known as the National guard. So Scalia for all his talk about "Originalism" is simply another proven hypocrite and Activist Judge, who changes the meaning of the Constitution, no matter what the words say.

A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed.

Constitution--A well regulated Militia is necessary to protect States from a strong central government.

Scalia: A well regulated Militia? Forget that part. Being necessary to protect the security of a free State? Forget that part too.

Constitution---This well regulated Militia should have all the arms made availabe to them as the Central government has,if they are to protect themselves from such a government. So let the people have unrestriced access to such arms, and not infringe on their right to have such arms.

Scalia---The right of the people to keep and bear arms---HMMM that's a little confusing---let's change that to simply--INDIVIDUALS have the right to keep and bear arms. OK--next? AH yes---to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed. Well, we can't have that, let's change that to--but government has the right to infringe on such right as it sees fit. OK--read that back to me.

Yes sir the New second amendment means:

Individuals have the right to keep and bear arms, but such right may be infringed as the government sees fit.

Scalia: Ah yes--that's the ticket--next case. Boy it's good being an originalist.

Yeah I am condecending on Your POLITICAL BELIEFS JeffJ. How is THAT getting personal?? If I was going personal I would be lambasting You or Your family. I am NOT Huge fucking difference. At least I know the difference.

Larry

Hell, just for old time's sake, let's go to the video tape...

video.yahoo.com

He didn't want Rush to feel bad for falling for a false story.

#79 | Posted by 101Chairborne at 2009-10-27 03:13 PM

Hey, speaking of that thread...

This is what happens when people create a false reality for the sole sake of being mad at something.

#7 | Posted by Manypaths at 2009-10-26 01:43 PM

If the shoe fits...

Chicago I think.

#95 | Posted by danni at 2009-10-27 03:22 PM | Flag: Delusional

One can't produce a product without first being a business.

Are you on drugs????

I make myself a nice pair of shoes and you see them and ask me to make you a pair for 10 dollars.

I have not started a business yet, but I do make a mean pair of shoes. What do you not understand that the business is SECOND.

Larry,

You called me a bastard.

You called me a whore for big corporations.

You accused me of hating social welfare - helping others.


I am a thick-skinned person, but I also tend to reply in kind and I am trying to prevent a possible flame-war.

Why would Doc_Sarvis feel the need to lie about Scalia? I just can't figure it out.
#76 | Posted by LIVE_OR_DIE

I haven't lied about Scalia, you boob. I linked the story, which turns out to be a piss poor job of reporting on the reporter's part. Please, try not to fall into the trap of assuming that because someone posts a story on the DR they are vouching for it and/or it represents their personal view.

It was posted in good faith in the hope of creating an opportunity for discussion. However, the story misquotes Scalia, someone evidently switching Brown and Plessy.

Now, please, do yourself a favor; unwad your pantaloons and see if your voice drops a couple of octaves back into the normal range for prepubescent males.

Then I guess I had best keep My political mouth shut with regards to You JeffJ. I can do that no sweat.

Larry

I make myself a nice pair of shoes and you see them and ask me to make you a pair for 10 dollars.

Once you have begun producing a product or service for sale, you become a business.

I cook dinner for my family every night. However, if we have some friends over and they love my food and ask if I can cater a business luncheon, upon accepting their offer I effectively become a business.

Then I guess I had best keep My political mouth shut with regards to You JeffJ. I can do that no sweat.

I am not suggesting that at all. I am merely pointing out that if you are going to repeatedly insult me then expect me to reply in kind. That is all.

#107 | Posted by JeffJ at 2009-10-27 03:32 PM | Reply | Flag

You still missed the point, and why am I not surprised.

#117 | Posted by Doc_Sarvis

That is fair.


I've linked a few poorly fact-checked articles over the years as well.

#117 | Posted by Doc_Sarvis

That is fair.


I've linked a few poorly fact-checked articles over the years as well.

You still missed the point, and why am I not surprised.

#121 | Posted by moneywar


I didn't miss your point. I just disagreed with your logical constructs.

Scalia: "close your eyes and decide what you think is a good idea.''

uh, that's how we got segregation to begin with. they closed their eyes, thought of their white zombie jesus wearing a hood, and did whatever they figured he might do.
it was with OPEN EYES that americans finally realized that all people ARE equal, made equal, and should be treated as such, especially by their government.

"Find someone who would be open to that idea AND has a decent chance of getting elected and making those appointments is zero, at present."

I guess that's to be expected with some people's voting habits being the way they are.

"In the meantime, we'll just have to settle for moderate liberals like Sotomayor over the reactionary picks Johnny Boom Boom and the Crazy Bitch would've made."

Cold comfort.

I have updated this story to reflect the fact that Scalia was misquoted. The Phoenix newspaper that originally reported it is the source of the error, not the Huffington Post or us.

"I hope that we shall crush in its birth the aristocracy of our monied corporations, but first I think I'll screw some hot young slave girls on my plantatation."
- Thomas Jefferson

I have updated this story to reflect the fact that Scalia was misquoted. The Phoenix newspaper that originally reported it is the source of the error, not the Huffington Post or us.

#127 | Posted by rcade at 2009-10-27 03:53 PM | Reply | Flag: Buzzkill

#117 | Posted by Doc_Sarvis at 2009-10-27 03:40 PM
What's even better is that what really happened was nearly the opposite of what you posted.

Remarkably, the paper that made up the story is the only outlet that has not apologized or at least stated that the correction was made.

And the guy who made up the story is Howard Fischer, who covers the AZ state capitol for NPR.

"I guess that's to be expected with some people's voting habits being the way they are."

Some people live in the real world. They don't go to a Knicks-Laker game and root for the Dallas Cowboys.

Null would vote for any Wall Street approved corporate / banking shill, as long as they concede a social issue or two.

#32 | Posted by JeffJ


The Consitution lists the items that can be allocated federal tax dollars, all other monies spent are deferred to the state vis a vis the 10th Ammendment.

-------------------------
You are correct, that is why the took the time to spell everything out.

#133 | Posted by nullifidian

Which is why I've always been a pragmatic voter - voting for the GOP because they better represent my views than the DNC.

However, I am seriously considering voting 3rd party next time around. Maybe if enough conservatives do so, the GOP will take heed and move toward limited governance.

You are correct, that is why the took the time to spell everything out.

Nope. They were just joshing us with all of that. They really did intend for "general welfare" to nullify everything else they wrote.

/ sarcasm

#16--- "constrain the desires of the current society"-- maybe Scalia is talking about a court that is activist and desires an outcome not supported by the constitution but by a certain movement or group in that particular culture. There are those that would argue that courts in the past have made decisions reflecting the desires of current society and not based on the constitution.

Null would vote for any Wall Street approved corporate / banking shill, as long as they concede a social issue or two.

I think he's more interested in getting pot legalized than anything else.

That, and killfiles. LOL

"The only thing you can be sure of is the Constitution will mean whatever the American people want it to mean today,'' Scalia said. "And that's not what a Constitution is for. The whole purpose of a constitution is to constrain the desires of the current society.''


Kanrei--It makes perfect sense as an originalist for this comment by Scalia.


You have the Constitution with it's limitations. You have the three branches with their assigned duties and responsibilities.

Then you have folks who want to change the constitution or invoke laws that are contrary--superceding the constitution.

You have to review the constitution from the beginning when it was written--not some yahoo who wants to make it what they want because it feels good NOW..


It the society wants to change the constitution--we have a process to do this--Amendments!

#136--- I'll wager the elections in the near future will revolve around jobs and getting the deficits under control-- you can see it already in the whole healthcare debate as it relates to the deficits.

As for the Plessy case--that started the Separate But Equal bullshit this country went thru for 100 years plus!


It only makes sense that if you are with the dissent of Plessy--you would be for Brown.

Good to see the retraction.

#140-- couldn't have said it better.

Once this country started moving away from the constitution, it began to lose the uniqueness that the founders gave us. Does that surprise me?-- nope. If we could time warp back to the 50's and maybe earlier and then look at the society of today we would probably have our eyes really opened. Every society begins to die after its' birth and we're no different.

JeffJ, if you cook dinner for your family every night you have effectively become a business and you should charge money to your family for eating in your restaurant.

"Once this country started moving away from the constitution, it began to lose the uniqueness that the founders gave us."

It all went downhill after the 13th amendment, didn't it?

Just shows how fast liberals spread lies about conservatives. Like with Limbaugh the fake racist comments that derailed his NFL hopes, Scalia was slammed for something he did not say. Pathetic when you have to lie to make your point.

Scalia clearly stated in the video at 23:26 that he would have dissented in the case of Plessey v. Ferguson NOT Brown v. Board

tv.azpm.org


Income taxes are constitutional because the constitution was properly ammended to allow for them.

So what's your beef with the New Dealers interpretation of the General Welfare clause?

The War of Northern Aggression and the following period of Reconstruction first ruined the Constitution; there was no turning back. Then came the moral nannies of the 20's and 30's, fiat currancy, and ecomonic tyranny through the expanded powers of Congress. FDR only used the tools set up by earlier conservatives to change the Federal government. He worked within the bounds of his Constitutional power to expand his influence and the scope of the White House. He convinced the populace and Congress 'judicial engineering' of social justice was/is inherent in the Constitution -- I agree. No Amendments were struck down, no laws broken.

Having said that, you're right in one important aspect: the role of the Constitution and SCOTUS changed with FDR and the New Deal. If he hadn't packed the Court, The Wagner Act or Social Security would not have passed the Constitutional smell test. It should be noted that those changes (minority protectionism, labor laws, safety net...) are part of every post WWII Constitutional Democracy in the world. It has been America's greatest export.

What's your point?

#146--- What's your point?---please elaborate.

You have to review the constitution from the beginning when it was written--not some yahoo who wants to make it what they want because it feels good NOW.

"as it was written" makes Obama the 43rd and 3/5ths President. "as it was written" only gives gun rights to "regulated militias". "as it was written" tells women like you to STFU and make me a samaich.

as it was written" makes Obama the 43rd and 3/5ths President.

An Ammendment corrected that.

So, the point still stands.

Hey Blusky--

All those you mentioned were changed by Amendments.

Get your own stinkin' samaich...

"Scalia clearly stated "

Well, not exactly "clearly" stated....but yes, that was the gist of it.

An Ammendment corrected that

Exactly. The NEED for Amendments prove beyond ANY doubt that the Founders didn't have it all figured out -- and that is the basis of "originalists" (flawed) thinking.

Either we stick to the original document or we don't. I don't understand how one can accept non-original Amendments (11-27) whilst arguing that the Founder's principles must be stringently adhered to.

"If he hadn't packed the Court, The Wagner Act or Social Security would not have passed the Constitutional smell test."

Roosevelt was never able to pack the court. The legislation which would have given him the ability to do so was never encacted. What actually happened was that one Justice, Robert Owens, who had voted against New Deal legislation previously started voting for New Deal legislation starting with a decision to uphold a Washington Minimum Wage Law.

Either we stick to the original document or we don't. I don't understand how one can accept non-original Amendments (11-27) whilst arguing that the Founder's principles must be stringently adhered to.

#155 | Posted by BluSky

The Ammendments are part of the original document.

Once an ammendment has been passed, the document is forever changed until it is ammended again (see Prohibition).


Originalists incorporate the ammendments into their jurisprudence.

"You have to make the constitutional argument that they didn't mean any of it because the little welfare clause actually supercedes everything else because it can be interpretted to mean literally anything."
~JeffJ

Or you could make the argument they intended tax monies to be spent on whatever the legislature felt in the future was important to the general welfare, and didn't want to tie their hands. Notice it says nothing about an interstate highway system, either.

Either we stick to the original document or we don't. I don't understand how one can accept non-original Amendments (11-27) whilst arguing that the Founder's principles must be stringently adhered to.

Some of the founding fathers argued for a Constitutional Convention every x years. I think some suggested 75-100 years. The amendment clause was how they compromised the matter.

Roosevelt was never able to pack the court. The legislation which would have given him the ability to do so was never encacted. What actually happened was that one Justice, Robert Owens, who had voted against New Deal legislation previously started voting for New Deal legislation starting with a decision to uphold a Washington Minimum Wage Law.

#156 | Posted by danni

Some historians have argued that the court-packing scheme, even though it failed, sent enough of a chilling message and Owens flipped out of fear.


Or you could make the argument they intended tax monies to be spent on whatever the legislature felt in the future was important to the general welfare, and didn't want to tie their hands.

If you read the document as a whole, that conclusion defies logic. They laid out what monies could be spent on at a federal level. Per the 10th Ammendment, all other spending is deferred to the state level.

I argue that my interpretation is far more consistent with the text itself than is yours.

Essentially, what you are saying, is when they laid out everything the federal government could spend money on, they didn't mean any of it.

In order to expand beyond what is laid out in the Constitution, an ammendment or 3 would have been needed.

"Some historians have argued that the court-packing scheme, even though it failed, sent enough of a chilling message and Owens flipped out of fear."

I doubt that but I did read that opinion when I looked it up a few minutes ago.

Scalia is reading the "Tyranny of the Majority" in the Constitution which makes him guilty of what he hates: find words that are not in the Constitution.

#15 | POSTED BY KANREI AT 2009-10-27 02:02 PM | REPLY | FLAG

You are misguided. He is trying to read out the tyranny of the majority.

"If you read the document as a whole, that conclusion defies logic. "

But turn the table around. The income tax was going to be a substantial source of income for the country. If they wanted to limit the spending to specific items, they wouldn't have used the word "general".

This happens all the time in crafting rules & regulations: the makers don't want to find out down the road they forgot something major, so they'll include specific wording to make things more broad (and/or is one example). You can't get much broader than "general" welfare.

JEFFJ when you hear liberal justices on the Supreme Court talk about an interpretation they very rarely say this what the Founders inteneded (because they can't back it up), they usually say the Constitution is an evolving document, and this is how we should interpret it today.


JEFFJ when you hear liberal justices on the Supreme Court talk about an interpretation they very rarely say this what the Founders inteneded (because they can't back it up), they usually say the Constitution is an evolving document, and this is how we should interpret it today.

#164 | Posted by 90c2cab

Absolutely.

Which is precisely why I dusted off my copy of it and recently re-read it; in its entirety - for myself. While it's not pefectly precise, when taken in its entirety it's pretty clear the intent of the founders in regards to the scope of federal power.


But turn the table around. The income tax was going to be a substantial source of income for the country. If they wanted to limit the spending to specific items, they wouldn't have used the word "general".


This happens all the time in crafting rules & regulations: the makers don't want to find out down the road they forgot something major, so they'll include specific wording to make things more broad (and/or is one example). You can't get much broader than "general" welfare.

Again, you have to completely ignore the limitations they pretty clearly laid out when applying THAT broad of a context to a portion of a sentence.

Why bother placing limitations at all if 'general welfare' is SO broad that it nullifies everything else that was written with a fair degree of specificity?

Your argument falls flat when we read the document in its entirety.

They understood that it was an imperfect document - tremendous wisdom right there. They instituted a process for changing the document. That process was circumvented during the Depression and we've never looked back. The problem is that this is a 2-way street. We have some conservatives who advocate stacking the court with activists in order to further a conservative agenda, outside the scope of constitutionality. Hell, it can be argued that this already happened with warrantless wiretaps and the Patriot Act.

The Constitution was put into place to limit the powers of the federal government, sans ammendments.

The fact that an income tax was allowed via an ammendment does NOTHING to change HOW tax revenues could be spent.

Some people live in the real world. They don't go to a Knicks-Laker game and root for the Dallas Cowboys.
#133 | Posted by nullifidian at 2009-10-27 04:04 PM | Reply | Flag: Lost All Heart

C'mon HC -- you don't go to Kim Wah's Chinese restaurant looking for good sauerbraten and schnitzel?

#133 | Posted by nullifidian at 2009-10-27 04:04 PM | Reply | Flag: Lost All Heart

#166 | Posted by Hagbard_Celine

Hagbard, I was walking door to door for George McGovern in 1972. What were you doing?

Hagbard, I was walking door to door for George McGovern in 1972. What were you doing?
#168 | Posted by nullifidian

Getting conceived. What's your point?

Perspective yields wisdom.

"Perspective yields wisdom."

It also yields cataracts.

But I hope you're right and I'm wrong.

Nothing would make me happier.

And as long as I live in Blue State NY, I get to be as ideologically liberal as I want to be, right?

Good of them to correct their mistake.

Now, if only Flush Rimjob would do the same.

"I get to be as ideologically liberal as I want to be, right?"

I'm interested in getting things done, in advancing a progressive agenda, not being "as bad as I want to be".

I'm interested in getting things done, in advancing a progressive agenda

And yet you vote for people who are so regressive that they don't even support the right of gay people to marry.

"And yet you vote for people who are so regressive that they don't even support the right of gay people to marry."

Versus, of course, the only other realistic choice, who recently tried to permanently codify gays as second-class citizens.

I'm interested in getting things done, in advancing a progressive agenda, not being "as bad as I want to be".
#174 | Posted by nullifidian

Of course that was my point all along. Proving how bad I am. I was hoping that you'd find a way not to be rude about all of this.

Versus, of course, the only other realistic choice

Yawn. There is only one other "realistic choice" because supposed "progressives" like Null don't vote for real progressive candidates.

Even in the Democrat primary, where the "realistic" candidates lie, the most progressive candidate (Kucinich) went nowhere.

I'm interested in getting things done, in advancing a progressive agenda

#173 | Posted by nullifidian at 2009-10-27 11:19 PM

That's rich.

Concede a couple of social issues, and this dog will lap whatever other bull shit you throw his way. Everyone whines about how corrupt and corporately controlled government is, but when they vote like Null here, they get what they deserve.

"I'm letting the video load, I'll watch it myself and type exactly what he said.
#8 | Posted by JOE "


"How much you bill per hour to watch a video?
#10 | Posted by LetUsPrey"


Probably about $75/hour. Typical for a relatively inexperienced paralegal like Joe.

Probably about $75/hour. Typical for a relatively inexperienced paralegal like Joe.
#179 | Posted by mOntecOre

I don't know why the Joe/paralegal jokes bug me.

I used to work for a big DC lobbying firm that temped out 90% of their paralegal work. They'd bill the client $85.00/hr/paralegal, then pay the staffing agency $45.00/hr/paralegal, and the paralegal would make around $20/hr.

Its a great set up. Of course, the Sr. Partners charged between $600 and &750/hr.


"Left Now Spreading Phoney Racist Scalia Quotes"

"It worked with Rush Limbaugh so why not?
If you can't beat them smear them viciously."

gatewaypundit.firstthings.com

#181 KMB

They are just practicing for the 2010 election. Float a baloon and see, if and when it gets shot down. Just as they a smear big oil, big insurance, big car, companies, big banks, any body but big government.

I am suprised Scalia did not mention the original school segregation case. Brown should have been a foregone conclusion. Mendez was decided 7 years BEFORE Brown.

Mendez v. Westminster School District, 64 F.Supp. 544 (C.D. Cal. 1946), aff'd, 161 F.2d 774 (9th Cir. 1947) (en banc), was a 1946 federal court case that challenged racial segregation in Orange County, California schools. In its ruling, the United States Court of Appeals for the Ninth Circuit, in an en banc decision, held that the segregation of Mexican and Mexican American students into separate "Mexican schools" was unconstitutional.

"I don't know why the Joe/paralegal jokes bug me."

Because the thought of Joe having anything remotely to do with law just isn't funny.

"Give me a break. Joe is an idiot. Lawyers get paid by the hour. Joe spends all his time here.

#33 | Posted by Manypaths"


No shit. I had to laugh when Joe whined a day or two ago about not being able to find the time to golf. Obviously the douchebag likes spewing his pseudo-legalistic rantings here more than spending a day outside, on the links. It has nothing to do with being too busy at work, that's for sure.

I think this misquote/misconception came from a passage by Robert Bork (whom I believe is more Libertarian than neocon). Bork said he would have agree with Brown but on different grounds. That distinction is important. He wrote:

("The Tempting of America" page 82)

"By 1954, when Brown came up for decision, it had been apparent for some time that segregation rarely if ever produced equality. Quite aside from any question of psychology, the physical facilities provided for blacks were not as good as those provided for whites. That had been demonstrated in a long series of cases . . . The Court's realistic choice, therefore, was either to abandon the quest for equality by allowing segregation or to forbid segregation in order to achieve equality. There was no third choice. Either choice would violate one aspect of the original understanding, but there was no possibility of avoiding that. Since equality and segregation were mutually inconsistent, though the ratifiers did not understand that, both could not be honored. When that is seen, it is obvious the Court must choose equality and prohibit state-imposed segregation. The purpose that brought the fourteenth amendment into being was equality before the law, and equality, not separation, was written into the law."

Bork, i.e., would have agreed with Brown because there was no "third choice," and not because separate but equal was an unconstitutional standard.
I tend to agree, but with reservations. The idea of taking money from everyone to educate anyone and making that a "right" is ludicrous to me. I believe in a restrained way it might be feasible, but public education for all is baloney. Many special ed kids would be far happier outside of a school, for example.
And far too many African-Americans are forced into classrooms with the worst, most violent students who hold the good back from a potential life. Egalitarians make that unavoidable. THAT is a crime worse than segregation.

Scalia is wrong to assume that the Constitution isn't about what is right at the current time.

The Constitution was an attempt to document what WAS right at the time. It was people deciding what felt right at that time, and Scalia is dismissing the common sense logic of the times that were required to create the Constitution in the first place.

Yes, MANY... it was written for what was right at that time in order to get states on board. There are checks and balances... and it is purposefully difficult to change the document via admendment.

That is by design.

There was never the intent to have the judiciary create laws. That's the legislative's role.

If laws have been passed which the public really disagrees with then the amendment process is the mechanism to change the constitutionality of such laws - not the judiciary's.

"If laws have been passed which the public really disagrees with then the amendment process is the mechanism to change the constitutionality of such laws - not the judiciary's."

What a pile of shit. The judiciary has often found the legislature has "changed" the law unconstitutionally.

I'm correct, DAN. If the legislature crafts unconstitutional laws, the SCOTUS can overturn them.

My point is that the SCOTUS isn't there to create laws. It's there to determine a law's constitutionality. Period.

And if the public disagrees with something strongly enough, there is a mechanism to reverse the judiciary's decisions... by passing a constitutional amendment.

Amending the constitution was made purposefully difficult so as to make it a very serious matter to alter the original document. But there most certainly is a mechanism to override the SCOTUS.

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