Drudge Retort: Red Meat for Yellow Dogs

A U.S. Foreign Service officer has become the first U.S. official to resign in protest over the Afghan war. "I have lost understanding of and confidence in the strategic purposes of the United States' presence in Afghanistan," wrote Matthew Hoh, a former Marine Corps captain who fought in Iraq, on Sept. 10 to his department head. "I have doubts and reservations about our current strategy and planned future strategy, but my resignation is based not upon how we are pursuing this war, but why and to what end."

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No longer? WTF? Why were we there after Bush let Osama Bin Laden get away?

There was more at the end of the story I missed:

With "multiple, seemingly infinite, local groups," he wrote, the insurgency "is fed by what is perceived by the Pashtun people as a continued and sustained assault, going back centuries, on Pashtun land, culture, traditions and religion by internal and external enemies. The U.S. and Nato presence in Pashtun valleys and villages, as well as Afghan army and police units that are led and composed of non-Pashtun soldiers and police, provide an occupation force against which the insurgency is justified."

If the United States is to remain in Afghanistan, Hoh said, he would advise a reduction in combat forces.

But many Afghans, he wrote in his resignation letter, are fighting the United States largely because its troops are there --


Which is what I've been saying since some time now (it's common knowledge) that the US is now fighting against ordinary Afghans, not taliban, who just want freedom from the US occupation and from the American drug-lord, Karzai.


Pakistan-based al-Qaeda


LOL... cry-baby.

Anyway, good to see that the cracks in the American side are becoming obvious.

the insurgency "is fed by what is perceived by the Pashtun people as a continued and sustained assault, going back centuries, on Pashtun land, culture, traditions and religion by internal and external enemies. The U.S. and Nato presence in Pashtun valleys and villages, as well as Afghan army and police units that are led and composed of non-Pashtun soldiers and police, provide an occupation force against which the insurgency is justified."


He got that right, at least.

What do you make of this:

The army is shelling and strafing villages and compounds with abandon.

Those places are mostly empty, so casualties on all sides are low.

My guess is that until now the army has suffered more casualties than the taliban.

The army has a huge edge in firepower but that is not enough to dislodge them from where they are prepared to stand and fight.

The army's hope is that massive use of artillery and airpower and a general show of force will convince the talibs to melt away rather than stand and fight.

The taliban are willing to go along with that in many places, but are not willing to just withdraw from everywhere and allow the army to claim victory.

At some point, the army will have to fight up close, at which point casualties will rise dramatically.

To avoid that the army is willing to go slow and hope that the good taliban can convince the evil taliban not to be stubborn and to let the army have its way (in return the talibs get to stay alive and concentrate on Afghanistan).

But the bad taliban are not willing to follow the script.

THEIR hope is that their campaign of terrorism will cause the people of Pakistan to press the army to stop.

What I cannot figure out is what is the army's plan if they continue terrorism and DON'T melt away?

Taking Waziristan ridge by ridge is not going to be a picnic. MAYBE the army is determined to do that if they have to, but I dont see convincing evidence of that as yet.

Here's Refugees and Mehsud's themselves saying they are not happy with this:
Mehsud's Hate Taliban, Don't Consider Pak Gov's Anti-Taliban Efforts Serious

My guess is that until now the army has suffered more casualties than the taliban.


Nope. The daily body count is given in the papers and nobody from the press is disputing it.

This will take as long as it takes. There is no hurry.

Here's Refugees and Mehsud's themselves saying they are not happy with this:


As someone who posted here used to say... "the beatings will continue until moral improves." LOL

Yes yes many people will be displeased and leave it to some useless traitor from the media to find just the people who are "displeased".

The rest of Pakistan, however, is not displeased.

Kill them all if you have to. This whole Mehsud tribe is a liability.

They want to live like Afghans and plant bombs and stuff...?... well, we'll exile them all to Afghanistan. Live as animals amongst animals.

"Foreign Service officer and former Marine captain says he no longer knows why his nation is fighting:"



Like "father", like "son".

My guess is that until now the army has suffered more casualties than the taliban.


2 soldiers shaheed and 42 taliban dead, today.

In another area, 100 taliban dead and 2 soldiers are shaheed.

And like I said, nobody disputes such numbers because these were the same kind of numbers we saw in Swat and they were later verified to be correct.

Also, notice how the taliban body count here is 2-3, times higher per encounter than that of NATO on the other side of the border. LOL

Like "father", like "son".


Sorry? He's some important guy's kid?

"I have lost understanding of and confidence in the strategic purposes of the United States' presence in Afghanistan," wrote Matthew Hoh, a former Marine Corps captain who fought in Iraq, on Sept. 10 to his department head. "I have doubts and reservations about our current strategy and planned future strategy, but my resignation is based not upon how we are pursuing this war, but why and to what end."

Why?

Because the MIC like any other business gets in trouble when people stop buying and using their products.

To what end?

In order to control the considerable natural gas reserves, build a pipeline project and get a cut of the massive opium crop money.

The time for effective change in Afghanistan by the west is pretty much up.

The battle for hearts and minds has been fought (albeit barely) and now it's mostly over.

The West lost, btw.

Spud would say "can't say they didn't try" but ya know...

Be Well.

/Canadian support for the mission in Afghanistan has fallen below fifty percent now.

Sorry? He's some important guy's kid?

Yer trying to make sense of one of Chapel's posts?

LOL.

Here's a clue...

Chapel doesn't have a clue.

Be Well.

Hasn't the lesson of Afghanistan been learned already?

If you actively or through inaction allow the spilling of American blood, we will visit that crime on you 100 fold?

Don't you think we've gotten that point across by now?

There is no more reason for us to stay in Afghanistan.

Even with the Taliban back in power, they'd be fools to risk aiding and/or abetting Al Qaeda or any other group with similar intentions for the United States.

Obama is trying to pull a rabbit out of his hat, but he forgets that by now, we all know its just magic and its not real.

US OUT OF EVERYWHERE!!

G D S Hagbard Celine. You mean that Rabbit and the hat thingy isn't Real?? You mean it's faked??? I think I is gonna do voodoo on You.

Larry

"I think I is gonna do voodoo on You."

There's a website for that.

GDS?

Ah, the good old days.

"I have lost understanding of and confidence in the strategic purposes of the United States' presence in Afghanistan,"

Welcome to our world.

PBS had a Frontline called "Obama's War" and it talked about many of these issues including the presence of troops in villages, only it wasn't as down on the idea. It did discuss pakistan's continued role in supporting al queda and the taliban.

"US OUT OF EVERYWHERE!!"

What a thought. It has been a long time.

If you actively or through inaction allow the spilling of American blood, we will visit that crime on you 100 fold?


No, the lesson has been "if you actively or through inaction allow the spilling of American blood, we will go bomb Iraq ... or Fiji.... or the Vatican..."

Here's a clue...

Chapel doesn't have a clue.

Be Well.


Oh.

I thought he was going to say something drastic.

If Obama does the right thing and gets us out of there, instead of escalating or prolonging the war, he will start deserving that Peace Prize he got.


Yes, and then all the Afghans who trusted us as partners and then watched as we dithered for 7 years ignoring them and then left then twisting in the wind to be massacred by the Taliban will be on our conscious.

No thanks. If there is a chance that the Afghan gov can hold and build after we sort out the bad guys, then we owe it to the American legacy to win and build instead of to cut and run yet again

btw, anyone who thought we were going to do that this time has a laughable view of foreign policy as a whole.

The only question was getting a gov in place and how many troops to send, not whether we were going to abandon yet another partner who trusted us.

Worry not. Obama is thinking of making a decision about making a decision about whether he should should decide to make a decision about an increase in troops within a few weeks....maybe....and then again maybe not.

This is how "Hopey Changey" works. Thank God he has a teleprompter he can read.


"Obama!"

"Uh, um, ah, ah, a ah, present?"
--- Obama ---

#23
You use a very loose definition of "partner" in this context. Our partners have made themselves a huge part of the current problem. In fact it was our former "partners" who got us into this mess in the first place.

Now our presence on the ground undermines our raison d'etre for being there in the first place.


There is a list as long as your arm of peoples who have trusted the US when we said we'll be there to help you when the going gets tough if you'll just help us now... and who lived, or rather mostly died, regretting it.

We told the Afghan people that if they would just let us run off the Taliban, we'd help them over all the death and destruction that would cause, then we dithered there for 7 years doing nothing at all.

Now some want to leave them to the tender mercies of the Taliban again, after they risked their lives identifying with us.

The Karsai gov is no more corrupt than the Bush gov. He has tribal leader associates in the gov that he needed to form the gov, but will be getting rid of them.... which is one thing he and Kerry discussed.

Again, the idea that Obama was ever going to "pull out", especially after he campaigned on righting our mistakes there with more troops, and making sure that they were never a base for terror again is ludicrous on it's face.

I've protested almost every war since 'Nam, so I'll take no back seat to anti-war efforts, but this is one job that needs to be finished the right way, to protect both America and her reputation.

"but this is one job that needs to be finished the right way, to protect both America and her reputation"

what reputation? and perhaps the best way to protect america is to protect it against its own extremist political ideologues. that doesn't involve shooting some brown-skinned farmer with a gun half a world away. damn interventionists.

-what reputation?

The one Obama has recreated for us in the world, the one he got a Nobel Peace Prize for engendering.

If the farmer is growing poppies and protecting those who attacked us on 911, he needs to find some new friends, and we'll be happy to help him do that.

"""Worry not. Obama is thinking of making a decision about making a decision about whether he should should decide to make a decision about an increase in troops within a few weeks....maybe....and then again maybe not."""

LOL, and if it were up to you and your buddy cheney, you,d send another 100,000 troops without even stopping to think about what actually needs to be done, and keep supporting the corrupt gov't that you put in place. You'd end up making the russian incursion look like a sunday picnic.

"If the farmer is growing poppies and protecting those who attacked us on 911"

spare me. he can grow all the poppies he wants. its our job to secure our own borders and keep the drugs out. do you have a problem with that?

of course, prior to 9-11 (2/2001 to be exact) the taliban severly curtailed the afghani poppy growth. why do you think that there is now so much being grown? you are a fool if you do not think american interests aren't involved in this whole mess.

and following your line of reasoning, we were justifiable targets on 9-11 anyway because we were aiding and abetting terrorists in the middle i got news for you, everyone is a justifiable target in this world, only your freaky brand of american hubris is doing more to kill this country than anything our supposed enemies are doing.

so in summation, take your ideological neocon pov and shove it.

hey, world, how's the reputation of the usa holding up? any of our international posters care to comment? there are some clods in this country who think everything is all swell.

hey, world, how's the reputation of the usa holding up? any of our international posters care to comment?


If you can't be loved, you should be respected. You you can't be respected, you should at least be feared.

There ain't no love for the USA in Asia, no respect and now, since Obama.... and since China demonstrated it's new weaponry and power.... and since the Norks can't be touched.... and since Pakistan increased it's firepower by at least 3 times since 9-11.... certainly no fear.

There is only love for US in places like Africa and in many parts of the Arab world who are wannabe Americans.

Oh... I think Samarica loves US too. Maybe.

A big part of the US losing respect is also because of the dollar losing it's status as the world's reserve currency.

US OUT OF EVERYWHERE!!

#15 | POSTED BY MONSTMAN AT 2009-10-27 08:55 AM |


And let's take all our foreign aid with us, eh?


Obama is taking the time to make the right decision. Eliciting info from ALL sources involved, and doing it right, especially considering the presidential recount/runoff there........

I applaud his aplomb in the face of criticism from the left and right, which is proof he is doing the right thing, regardless of Americans political concerns.

fortunately i have yet to invest mysrelf into some political ideological worldview so i can see it clearer than many here-- obama is taking more time to make what will still be the wrong decision, because he has been set up so he can't make a right decision even if he wanted to.

#35
And which wrong decision results in the least loss of American lives?

I guess that's the only real question.

fortunately i have yet to invest mysrelf into some political ideological worldview so i can see it clearer than many here-- obama is taking more time to make what will still be the wrong decision, because he has been set up so he can't make a right decision even if he wanted to.

#35 | Posted by NerfHerder at 2009-10-27 11:55 AM

Yeah, the former admin left Obama a shit storm and no easy clear goal to continue pushing towards. There is no real good course of acdtion he can take here, I don't fault him for that. But when there are no good options, imo the best is the one that involves the smallest number of dead Americans and spent dollars. I.E. pulling out. I'm not anti-war, I just think Bush fucked it up beyond repair, and instead of wasting lives saving face, we should finally come home.

Concur.

-why do you think that there is now so much being grown?

Because Cheney dithered.

-take your ideological neocon pov and shove it.

What a joke. Not only an internet tough guy, but blind as the proverbial bat as well.

Must think Obama is a neocon, too, eh?

Did I say "think" in reference to this poster? My bad.

#37
#38

That's about where I'm at.

hey, world, how's the reputation of the usa holding up? any of our international posters care to comment?

The Indian Middle Class loves you guys.

Thats a serious 300 million who control whatever parts of India are under government control. On the downside, (please note this) they're last man-crush was the Soviet Union. I wonder how that went? Hmmmm...

Anyway the pattern I understand is that these bastards choose whoever looks slightly down, then stick with them without giving them anything in real return. Very skin-flinted, flint-hearted, and incredibly four faced bastards. Will suck up to you and believe your stupid ideas and not tell you (like a good friend should) where you are going wrong.

Exhibit A: Piyush "Bobby" (I-stole-my-name-from-the-
Brady-Bunch) Jindal.

These are the kind of suck-ups you are getting on your side.

On a side note; when they were crushing on the Soviet Union; we went with you guys. Thanks for the Sabre Jets; the Patton Tanks stank; and we destroyed the social fabric of our country to let you guys decimate your enemy; the Soviet Union. And then you dumped us. And now you have the oh-so-wonderful-Indians an entire section of which votes for a party that openly admires Adolf Hitler.

Say what you will about the Pakistani electorate, we've never voted into power people who admire the Soviets, Hitler or Osama Bin Ladin.

But the middle class in Gujarat has decided it like US corporatism and it likes flirting with open fascism.

Whereas we went with you guys when you were on your upswing up and up.


The less al Qaeda that return to Afghanistan with the Taliban, the less dead Americans there will be.

And the less dead Afghans who supported us.

The less al Qaeda that return to Afghanistan with the Taliban, the less dead Americans there will be.
And the less dead Afghans who supported us.
#42 | Posted by Corky

This leads me to my point about Afghanistan having learned its lesson. Don't you think that at this point the Taliban would be somewhat hesitant to provide safe harbor for al Qaeda again, knowing full when that we'll just come back in and blow the place to smithereens all over again?


Considering that the Taliban leadership is currently hiding out in So Whatsiztstan with Osama, ducking Paki missiles now that diplomacy has had an effect, no, I don't think they would hesitate at all.

And if the Pakis keep it up, they'll soon have no where else to go.

-we'll just come back in and blow the place to smithereens all over again?

And what would cost more treasure and blood, cleaning up Bush's mess now, or having to start all over again?

Obama campaigned for just what he is doing now, trying to get us out by doing the job right for a change.

It's kinda like spending more money to get out of the recession... it may seem counter-intuitive, but it is what works.

Obama campaigned for just what he is doing now, trying to get us out by doing the job right for a change.
It's kinda like spending more money to get out of the recession... it may seem counter-intuitive, but it is what works.
#44 | Posted by Corky

I'm willing to ignore my intuition and suspend judgment on the economy because I don't know as much as I'd like on the subject, but with respect to Iraq, I don't even begin to see where the calculus comes from that goes into thinking that, for the first time in Afghan history, a foreign occupying army is going to defeat a guerilla counter-isnurgency.

ducking Paki missiles now that diplomacy has had an effect


That's the second time you said that....

I'll bite... what do you mean by that exactly?


"US OUT OF EVERYWHERE!!"

#15 | Posted by Monstman

I wish you USA pricks would have stayed out of Germany.

.......Adolf


"I wish you USA pricks would have stayed out of Germany.
.......Adolf
"

The first time or the second time?

And what would cost more treasure and blood, cleaning up Bush's mess now, or having to start all over again?

#44 | Posted by Corky at 2009-10-27 01:25 PM

Blowing the place to smithereens, as HC put it, can be accomplished without a lengthy occupation. The occupations are where Americans primarily get hurt, not blowing shit up which we've always done well.

ducking Paki missiles now that diplomacy has had an effect

I'll tell you what it means. That if nothing else was acheived in Afghanistan, at least the public in Pakistan (who considering what happened to Musharraf, can get their voice heard somewhat) are now Outspokenly against the Taliban. Even if it is the Pakistani Taliban and even if it is not in Afghanistan; I think these people are relieved that at least Pakistan, the Muslim country with nukes; is outspokenly against Taliban taking over its territory.

And where the diplomacy part comes in is that George Bush and his crew were so stupid that Musharraf and were leading those bastards by the nose. Obama, who knows something of Pakistanis, and Hillary (who definitely) has a feel for Pakistan, knew that Mush was flirting with Bush and getting all that trouble swept under the table.

Considering how old McCain was, he might have forgotten Angoor Adda and sent in something like a battalion like force into the Waziristans. And if Sarah Palin came into power, God knows Zardari would be fucking that STUPID SLUT (Any Pakistani woman, or any NORMAL WOMAN, like Hillary or Condi, who despite ppl's ideas are normal) would have stared at Zardari with a freezing death stare if he flirted with them. Palin was and still is a stupid cunt who can't keep her legs closed. She is horny like crazy and those sort of uncontrolled people are Incredibly Unstable in politics.

What Obama did was he saw Pakistan was taking USA for a ride and bought pressure on us to clean out one of the two rats nests in our house, or he would "do it for us". On our side we withstood the pressure, used a political process, knew the public would not stand for a full scale attack on Swat, so we stuck an agreement which we knew would be broken in weeks. Now lo and behold, Obama pushing Zardari and CO to do anything (repeat ANYTHNG, Bush didn't have the sense to do anything but bomb, and he didn't want to hurt his beloved Mushi so he stayed away) and now Swat is nearly clear.

Now lo and behold, Obama pushing Zardari and CO to do anything


There is only one problem with what you said.

The Pakistani Govt. is still actually sitting on it's ass doing nothing. It just talks and talks.

So how is your and my country killing all these Taliban?

It's doing it AUTOMATICALLY. Without real permission from the Govt. of Zardari-the-Useless.

The way this country works, it's got an automatic switch. If a red line is crossed, the army goes into action all on it's own and the Commander-in-Chief (Zardari) can go fuck himself.

If the Americans applied any kind of "pressure" or persuasion, they did it to the Govt.... Mr.Useless-Zardari and his butt-buddy Mr.Extra-Useless-Rehman-Malik, and Co.

It would have had zero effect.

Now of course, Zardari has no choice but to support the army. LOL

This philosophy was thought necessary since missile flight time to India is only 5 minutes.

Pakistan operates on a tripwire-principle. If the threat appears, the counter follows automatically.

All foreign policy is re-routed through GHQ.

Since this is still a domestic matter, they haven't gone to such an extreme measure... not yet.

Did you know, Zardari tried to block the funds the Governor requested for kicking the taliban out of Swat?

Did you also know how Rehman Malik was insulted when he went to GHQ for a condolence visit after the taliban tried to attack the GHQ?

They didn't even open the front gate for him. LOL

What does THAT tell you?

Blowing the place to smithereens, as HC put it, can be accomplished without a lengthy occupation.


Yeah yeah yeah... you did that already right after 9-11 with all those B-52 bombers blowing the snot out of Afghanistan.

Now look where that got you. LOL

/Canadian support for the mission in Afghanistan has fallen below fifty percent now.

#12 | Posted by dethspud
That is as about as important point as weather or not the dung beetle supports the mission. right or wrong, Canada means dick!


No longer? WTF? Why were we there after Bush let Osama Bin Laden get away?

#1 | Posted by LetUsPrey at 2009-10-27 12:03 AM | Reply | Flag:

Don't know. Ask Barry...if you can convince him to stop deflecting to how bad Bush's strategy was. He (Barry) has had ten months to bring on the change...almost out of hope.

It's not our country, it's not our civil war. The heroin trade is not worth one more American life. I support our men and women in the military for doing the jobs they have sworn to do; I do not support our President or representatives BECAUSE of the job they are doing. We need to get our people out of there and leave middle easterners to their own methods of self-rule, their own theocracies, and their own wars. If terrorists want to harm us and we have the choice to "fight them here or fight them there"...I say "here".

=for the first time in Afghan history, a foreign occupying army is going to defeat a guerilla counter-isnurgency.

The people of Afghanistan trust one government entity, and that is the Afghan military, which we support.

Counter-insurgency was Iraq, this is counter-terrorism and yes there is a difference.

McCrystal was actually the insurgent expert in Iraq, but recommended a different strategy in Astan.

=Blowing the place to smithereens, as HC put it, can be accomplished without a lengthy occupation. The occupations are where Americans primarily get hurt, not blowing shit up which we've always done well.

#49 | Posted by LIVE_OR_DIE

These are your strange bedfellow on this issue, HC, the nuke first and ask questions later POSs.

Fuck saving face, GET OUT OF AFGHANISTAN NOW.


Yes, let's get out now. There are still children there that the Tban/Qaeda have yet to indoctrinate, women to stone and US sympathizers to behead.

There's no oil there, so let's get moving.

Has anyone who takes the "bomb them to oblivion" mindset ever looked at a topical map of A-stan and/or studied conventional or nuclear weapons characteristics? You cannot bomb A-stan into the stone age (they're already there by the way). The effectiveness of bombing is directly related to terrain, regardless of the type of weapon (conventional vs nuke) or amount of ordnance used. And even if the place was as flat as Iraq, boots on the ground take and hold terrain, nothing else. This coming from an old ground pounding air-power type.

I applaude the Foreign Service officer, if not for his stance at least for his integrity. If you don't agree then make your voice heard, first thru chanels, then with your feet. IMHO this is kindof what the Oathkeepers have been espousing all along.

Brother of Afghan Leader Reportedly on CIA Payroll


Ahmed Wali Karzai, the brother of the Afghan president and a suspected player in the country's booming illegal opium trade, gets regular payments from the Central Intelligence Agency, and has for much of the past eight years, according to current and former American officials.

The agency pays Mr. Karzai for a variety of services, including helping to recruit an Afghan paramilitary force that operates at the C.I.A.'s direction in and around the southern city of Kandahar, Mr. Karzai's home.

The financial ties and close working relationship between the intelligence agency and Mr. Karzai raise significant questions about America's war strategy, which is currently under review at the White House.

Where is Duke Nukem when we need him?

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