"The military is not a place for the government to practice social engineering"

Fuck you.
~Harry S Truman

If Obama really wanted to do what he claims, he could issue an executive order, much the same way the 33rd president desegregated the services.

Until that time, it's just hot air.

"Prison and the military are not the same, Larry. Please don't make me waste my time listing the obvious differences."

One, of course, being the military is voluntary.

How is it the armed services can follow orders to maim, or kill, or bomb, yet somehow they couldn't possibly follow orders to tolerate?

"I like the way you downplay the men and women of fought/fight for your freedom."

Did they fight for the freedom of all Americans, of just the straight ones?

"will the rest be allowed for honorable discharge if they don't agree with the policy change? "

Did those who couldn't deal with the equality of blacks get an honorable discharge?

"I'm just about tired of people trying to force others to be tolerant when they themselves are not tolerant of people with different views from themselves. "

You're confusing tolerance with bigotry, and turning equality on its head. The intolerance, is for intolerance. Using your logic, anyone who points out bigotry is, by definition, bigoted against intolerance.

"Can you please give an example that is similar with this change? "

Sure: Truman's desegregation if the military.

"I don't think I ever said that they fought for only the straight Americans"

Of course not...you merely suggested those who believed in equal rights should STFU and be grateful homophobic soldiers were fighting to guarantee their right to deny equality for ALL Americans.

"as recently as this week, (the right) tried to make the connection that repealing DADT would lead to widespread bestiality and pedophilia."

It's the Godwin Moment, the equivalent of invoking Hitler. As soon as someone equates equal rights for gays with non-consensual sex with animals, you know they're either idiots, or they've run out of arguments. Or both.

"Funny, thought it was the leftist that were all in support of Polanski"

That was a small minority. Certainly not most lefties on the DR.

"Thought it was the current "safe-school" czar, Jennings, who wrote the foreward to a book called Queering Elementary Education. Elementary, as in Kindergarten?"

Why do you assholes always have to pretend that, for example, not denying reality (some people are -- gasp! -- gay!) equates with teaching first-graders to fist?

"Catch them any younger and you would have to worry about the diaper pens."

Riiiiiight. The gay = pedophile argument. Another Godwin Moment.

"Schools should teach basic math, not how to perform a blow job. "

No one is teaching that, and you know it. Why head directly to a strawman?

"Wrong answer. I wasn't making a hitler reference"

Anyone who brings up pedophilia or bestiality when arguing against gay rights has jumped the shark in the exact same way. You immediately lose the argument.

"The problem is that the left defends pedo's [ie. NAMBLA and Polanski, "

You get some idiots on both sides who endorse bullshit on both sides. It's unfair to take that .001% and pretend it represents everyone on one side or the other. Are Larry Craig, David Duke, and David Vitter representative of ALL Republicans?

"Drop a Cross in a glass of piss and the left cream themselves saying how brilliant the artist was and giving him grant money"

Bullshit. I didn't think that was "art". No one I know thought that was art. By the same token, some researchers have falsified data regarding, for example, breast cancer. Does that mean we should end all funding for BC research?

Tangentially, I'm painting my house soon. Where did you get that enormously broad brush?

"Actually, it will need to go thru congress -- obama cannot just sign an executive order "

Then how did Truman desegregate the military? From Wiki:

"In 1948, President Harry S Truman's Executive Order 9981 ordered the integration of the armed forces shortly after World War II, a major advance in civil rights. Using the Executive Order (E.O.) meant that Truman could bypass Congress."

You were saying.....?

'Regardless of what I think or don't think about the religious aspect of homosexuallity...'

Skipping the part about "do unto others" and "least of my brethren", right?

"...this is a terrible idea and should not even be considered."

Why shouldn't equality be considered?

"It is difficult enough in the service without having to deal with what a vast majority of service members believe is deviant behavior."

So they can follow orders to maim, to kill, or to bomb, but they couldn't possibly follow orders to tolerate?!?

"But truly, homosexuallity is a choice"

Describe how you come to grips with the choice each and every day.

"Lastly and quite off of the subject why is homosexuallity okay and not marrying multiple partners?"

Marriage is, at it's legal core, a confirmation of superseding rights. Be definition, superseding rights cannot be given to more than one person.

"We are always pacifying individuals and taking away the rights of the vast majority."

Yet it seems you're okay with taking away the rights of the minority...as long as it's not you. Since you referenced religion earlier, would you like others to do that "unto you"? If a majority went to the polls one day, and told you, for example, your wife wouldn't get a bump up to your social security when you pass away, would you like that? Despite the fact you pay in just like everyone else, would that be okay with you?

"There is nothing natural about either one."

You need to look up the definition of natural. It already has a definition, and that's not it.

"We all have choices day in and day out, we either make the right one or the wrong ones."

Then please regale us with how you have to choose every day whether to be straight or gay. Otherwise, you're full of shit.

"As for the definition of natural, there are many definitions. I choose this one "occurring in conformity with the ordinary course of nature"."

Then you're wrong, via the very definition you choose.

"It is not natural for a person to chose a member of the same sex"

In that case, you don't understand the definition. it happens all the time in nature. Including the human animal. Pretending it doesn't exist is merely denial.

"we were obviosly created to procreate with the opposite sex. Boy parts fit naturally in girl parts, the ass is for shitting and no matter how hard you may try you can't make a baby that way."

Your own odd obsessions aside, some heterosexuals engage in anal sex, and some gays don't. Attempting to boil down one's humanity to that alone diminishes you.

"we function as a nation where the majority rules."

Except we have rules where tyranny of the majority isn't allowed.

"If Obama's health care passes with a simple majority, I will have to deal with it. If the majority of Americans believe that homosexuals should not be in the military then...you or they should deal with it."

Except the majority believes gays should be allowed to serve. Why aren't you taking your own advice?

"First hand I will tell you that, there would be alot of problems shoving homosexuallity into the military."

People like you said the same thing about blacks.

"We constantly tolerate in the military"

Not by your statements.

"and by your statement you have no military service nor respect or concern yourself with the rights you have because of those who serve."

Your statement shows you have no respect for anyone who has a different opinion, nor any respect for the people who pay your salary. You congratulate yourself for fighting for "rights", when it reality, you're fighting against the rights of gays, and only for the rights of the people of whom you approve.

"Please show me an example of a poll that shows the majority of Americans want gays in the military."

Gladly. And afterward, you'll be in favor as well, right? I mean, since you said that was the bar...right? I wouldn't want you to be a hypocrite.

Oh, my...look at this:

"Seventy-five percent of Americans in a new Washington Post-ABC News poll said gay people who are open about their sexual orientation should be allowed to serve in the U.S. military, up from 62 percent in early 2001"

"If the majority of Americans believe that homosexuals should not be in the military then...you or they should deal with it."

Now, since the majority of Americans DO believe gays should be in the military...I guess you should "deal with it"...right?

"you jumped straight to fisting in an earlier post."

Posts the guy who jumped straight to blow jobs being taught to first graders.

" I will say that I was wrong with the polling data, but I would argue there are polls that also say different"

Then find and post them.

"...and my own experience at least in the military community that tells me different."

That's not how polls work. Polls sample a cross-section, not a tiny homogeneous group. That would be like polling Planned Parenthood workers and declaring 99% of Americans believe in a woman's choice.

"My ingorance(sic) of the polling data demonstrated to me that our country is truly going the wrong way morally."

Why would equality be the wrong way, morally? Doesn't the DOI state "all men are created equal", or does it include the caveat "except, of course, for gays"...?

"Leviticus 18:22 "You shall not lie with mankind, as with womankind: it [is] abomination.""

Are you joking? This is the same book that forbids haircuts, shirts of multiple threads, and shellfish.

So let me guess: You're typing that while sporting a fresh haircut, wearing a poly-cotton shirt, and in between bites of a shrimp cocktail.

According to your reference, being gay is about as bad as having a crab cake.

"nor abusers of themselves with mankind, (homosexuals)"

Why are you lying?

"homosexuals" isn't in the passage. For all you know, it's referring to Onanists.

"Of course all men are created equal, but that very example contains a religious reference directly connected to christianity"

No, it doesn't. It references The Creator. Nothing AT ALL to do with Christianity.

"There is not one redeeming feature in our superstition of Christianity. It has made one half the world fools, and the other half hypocrites"
~Thomas Jefferson

"So in your mind homosexuality is okay with God? "

Of course. Everyone is a child of God. Just like there are a percentage of gay animals across the animal spectrum, so it is with the human animal as well. And if God doesn't like homosexuals, why does he continue to create them every single day? More to the point, who do you think you are to question His Divine Plan?

"Past that are you kidding me, who do you think the Creator is?"

it doesn't matter who I think. Your suggestion was that the DOI is referencing Christianity. You could not be more wrong, and the authors have stated as much on numerous occasions.

"you choose to be homosexual."

Tell us how you "chose" to be straight, and what a struggle it is every single day for you.

"It clear states that he doesn't like homosexuality."

No, it doesn't. The only references are in a section that equates being gay with eating lobster, and another where the author's only connection to "God" was through a hallucination. More to the point, Jesus never said a single word about it. Yet he spoke at length about divorce.

And in all the references, nothing about two women. Does that mean lesbianism is AOK?

" please point out where the Bible says that it is okay to be homosexual"

The Bible says it's okay to own slaves, or stone your children if they sass you. Do you live you life by those beliefs, or do you pick and choose?

And speaking of choosing, why haven't you explained when you "chose" to be straight, and how difficult it is for you every single day to make that choice?

"Past that the Bible is God's word (all of it)"

Huh? The first book claims the moon is a light. It's not, it's merely a reflector of the sun's light. Anyone believing God doesn't know the difference is a moron.

"you are obviously questioning the validity of the Bible"

A book that's provably wrong? You bet I "question" it.

"I do not need to choose to be straight, it is natural."

Then why wouldn't you believe gays don't need to be straight, that it is natural for them?

"And for you, please give me scripture or any indication from the Bible that it is okay."

You haven't given me where it's not okay, except in a part that believes it's okay to sell your daughter, and kill someone who works on the Sabbath. Believing one part, and not another, makes you what they call a cafeteria Christian, also known as a hypocrite. Tell us, have you ever gotten your hair cut? Every worn a wool-cotton shirt? Ever had a shrimp cocktail? Do you believe eating a scallop is as bad as being gay? Because the Bible does.

"please give me scripture or any indication from the Bible that it is okay"

Love thy neighbor as thyself.

If your neighbor "allows" you to be straight, and it comes natural to you, why shouldn't you "allow" your neighbor to be what comes naturally to her or him?

"Answer my question, or you obviously can't."

I just did. Not my fault you don't get it.

Aside from that, you're suggesting I put stock in a section of the Bible that equates "the sin" of being gay with "the sin" of having crawfish etouffee.

Do YOU believe it's okay to own slaves, sell your daughter, kill your son for talking back, and stone your neighbor for working on the Sabbath, or is the only part you actually adhere to in that section the part about "God hates fags"?

Strict adherent, or cafeteria Christian? Which is it?

"What if he is a child molestor?"

What a moron, bringing in a scenario where there is no consent. It's the Godwin Moment of every debate about gay equality. What a fuckin' idiot.

"homosexuality is an unnatural act"

Sorry, natural already has a definition. You don't get to create a new one based on your whim.

"How about a goat fucker? Maybe the goat even likes it."

Anyone bringing bestiality into the argument loses. Again, if you don't understand the concept of consent, there's no hope for you.

"It is not natural to be gay, whether male or female."

You don't get to ignore the definition of the word either.

So you haven't answered the question: do you adhere to ALL the admonishments in the early books of the Bible, or just the convenient ones?

"Weak arguements such as your previous ones do not hold water."

What "doesn't hold water" is your pretense that homosexuality doesn't exist across the natural spectrum.

"Please provide me with your definition of natural."

Occurirng in nature...you know, the definition in the dictionary.

"no I don't stone my kids, no I don't own slaves, and I wouldn't sell my children. Why because I choose not to"

That's not the reason, and you know it. You can't own slaves, you can't sell your children, and you'd be jailed for the rest of your life if you killed your child because he talked back to you. The bottom line is, like the admonition against homosexuality, we've evolved since then. Well...some of us.

"But before you jump on top of homosexuality is okay because of a different time frame or evolution of humanity....It was strictly frowned upon Biblically."

So was eating shellfish, or getting your hair cut, or putting different crops side-by-side in the same field. Wouldn't you agree, "those ideals are for a different time and place"? You seem to pick and choose, agreeing with what you like, and dismissing what you don't.

"LOL! So what does that have to do with anything."

Well, for one, it's a misinterpretation of a word that already has a definition.

"You seem to be search for some vindication for being a homosexual in order to make things okay"

I'm straight, moron. I'm just sick to death of Biblical Bigots who pick and choose from a book they obviously don't understand, and try to turn lessons about love into reasons to hate.

"My last statement is allowing gays in the military says its okay to be a deviant or sin and will only serve to degrade this society further.'

And my last statement is Thank God jerks like you are going the way of the dinosaur. Allowing gays to serve openly will only serve to add justice to the world, something Jesus spoke of often.

"I know I am not allowed to have an opinion"

You're welcome to your opinion, just as I'm free to speak my mind about what I perceive to be your bigotry.

"only the so called oppressed are allowed that or of course their protectors."

Gays are currently treated as second-class citizens under the law. Over 1,000 rights, protections and privileges were granted to my wife and I the moment we said "I do". For a gay couple, those same items either must be pro-actively sought, acquired via legal papers, or, in the case of things like Social Security Survivor's rights, cannot be secured under any circumstances, despite the fact gay couples pay into the system at the same rate as straight couples.

"Thank you for the name calling, I attempted to keep the arguement civil"

Are you joking? You're throwing around words like "deviant". Are you actually pretending that's not "name calling"?!?