like i said, muslims misunderstand it the most...
.......#10 | Posted by klifferd

......that's not much of an endorsement of your religion.......

......what you are saying in effect, is that the more Muslims there are, the less understanding of Islam there will be........

Thanks to the application of Sharia, the rejection of Islam will be quicker around the world.

......what propels knowledge of Sharia around the world, are the horror stories of it's barbaric applications........and the more that these horror stories are flashed around the world, by today's technology, the quicker the world will reject Islam as a viable partner in human progress..........

Below is a paste from another thread regarding Islam and it's growth.

......increasing levels of education will eradicate all religions, world over, within one or two generations......

......western Europe is functionally atheistic, with some scattering of blue-hairs still attending churches, close to half of America is non-practising, and those who do practice religion are the 55+ generation who will be gone soon.......

....... the most stringent ANTI-MUSLIM laws are in Islamic majority countries such as Turkey, which shows you the true future of Islam ......these countries found that for a society to make progress, religion had to be restricted........

........and while the number of Muslim heritage people world over grows, the religion is rotting from within, as belief dies out, and secularism (and silent atheism) increases among the young generations.......

.......the future of all religions, is that they don't have one.......

they rebelled against religion... instead of rebelling against tyranny.
......#14 | Posted by klifferd

.....they rebelled against the tyranny of religion......

but i totally believe that muslims do the most harm to taint the message of islam....
......#17 | Posted by klifferd

.....up until the 1700's the Christian countries used to execute 'heretics' also, and engage in human rights abuses......then "The Enlightenment" came to the west......

......but Islam seems inflexible enough, that if peoples, like the Turks, want to progress, they just have to abandon it.......

.......no great loss in losing any religion......

.....after all, good people do good things, bad people do bad things, but it takes religion to make good people do bad things.......

they (attaturk) rebelled against religion only...
they are still tyranical.
ask a kurd.
........#21 | Posted by klifferd

......when I said they rebelled against the tyranny of religion, that is what I meant.......

......a religion as inflexible as Islam is either abandoned, or social development stays in the middle ages.....

......there seems to be very little middle ground.....

.....Kamal Ataturk equated belief in Islam with ignorance and backwardness, I do not see compelling evidence anywhere that he was wrong.....

they (attaturk) rebelled against religion only...
....#21 | Posted by klifferd

......now just think for a minute what kind of advertising that is for Islam.....

....a wholly Islamic country decides that it's own religion must be attacked for progress to occur ??......

.....they should have been in the throes of Islamic Ecstasy, having a 100% Islamic nation, instead they had to dump the religion in order to make social progress......if Muslims themselves cannot live with their religion, how can they expect to sell it to the world ??.....on top of that, their advertising campaign of bombing, honor killing, acid attacks, decapitation, ...... with "good press" like that they expect the world to respect them ?......

I get along just fine and dandy with atheists and agnostics.
It's the "Christians" I find bitter and fighting with everyone all the time.
......#16 | Posted by Tosser

.....that's because they are as delusional as you are......

......but you Tosser....I suspect that you are one of the new generation of non-believing Muslims, but you live in an area where you cannot say that you do not believe, otherwise some Loving Muslims may bring the Love of Mohammed to your ass.......

Are all the experts on Sharia Law in here?
......#25 | Posted by Manypaths

......depends......what part of your body do you want cut off ?........

religion is only a means to tyranny
.....#22 | Posted by klifferd

....any religion that proscribes rules for living, with punishment for failure to follow the rules, is a tyranny, because it dictats (dictatorship) how you must act........

.....Islam makes rules for living, and has severe punishments for failure to follow the rules.....

.....that is tyranny (or dictatorship if you prefer)......

but i can't argue about this with someone who blames religion for all of our political problems.
....#30 | Posted by klifferd

......far from it......

....I don't think that religion is the root of ALL of OUR problems, just some.......

....if we are talking about America, I believe our biggest problem is the hold that the American elite, which I call our oligarchy, has on the reins of power......they have corrupted our politicians, so that they (in particular the Republicans) are simply tools of the rich.......

......from that premise.....flow other structural problems.....number one is a terrible public education system, wretched public health policies, sell out of our industries, lack of infrastructure investment, and a general decline of the American civilization.......

......religion in America is not that big of a problem, but it is being used by the Repubs to get masses of voters out (abortion, gay rights) so that those poor religious idiots can vote against their own best interest (public healthcare) in almost anything that the Repubs can get away with......

....but.....

....if we are talking about some Muslim countries......then yes.....their religion is a huge obstacle to national progress.......

....of course ....it all starts with education....
and since in Muslim countries education will invariably conflict with religion......it is a big stumbling block for them.......

.....and they will stay halfway between modern times & the middle ages until they can adopt a progressive model that constricts the role of religion in their societies......

the koran is metaphore and poetry not explicit instructions.

#31 | Posted by klifferd

.....c'mon Kliff.....you don't want me to start quoting the nasty stuff in the Koran do you ?......

And Kliff...in Christianity, true Christianity, the "Church" means all the followers of Christ, not a bulding where one goes to worship, where a man runs what is being done in it.
.....#39 | Posted by Lisa

......just because Sharia sucks does not make Christianity worthwhile .......

......Christians were every bit as intolerant, repressive and repulsive as Muslims, until Europeans began rejecting the excesses of the Church......

.....Christians used to kill old women for "witchcraft" as well as "heretics" for no reason at all other than some neighbors complained about them, and they used to invade the Middle East on their 'Crusades' where they butchered as many Muslims as they could.........

......all religions.......devoutly followed.......are antithetical to human progress........

I don't believe man will make "the world right"...especially without God.
......#44 | Posted by Lisa

.......well it hasn't gone too well with Him, now has it ?......

......you can't build a stable, progressive, enlightened society on a delusion.......

......it's been tried......

If they are truly Christian, they would obey the commands of Christ.
......#46 | Posted by Lisa

....."obey"
.....Kliff......remember what we said about the tyranny of religion.....

......there was a time when every one in Europe believed in Christianity.......they called it the Dark Ages......

Skizz:
It's clear that you truly don't have an interest in hearing anything positive in relationship to God and Christianity, otherwise I would offer thought for discussion with you.
......#51 | Posted by Lisa

........first.....thank you for charitable sentiment......

....however......there is no reality to religions, other than the effect these delusions have on people........

.....and as we have seen, the affected people are capable of doing great harm to the world, based on their delusions.......

.....so whether you believe that your specific delusion more closely resembles reality than say Kliff or Takitez's version, it is a moot point, there is nothing there.......

......it's like comparing the concept of two children who both believe in Santa Claus......how does he come down a chimney?..how does he fly around the whole world in one night?...how many elves does he have ?......

....in the end you are discussing nonsense.....

why must he be split up?
....#53 | Posted by NerfHerder

.....the mistery of the trinity.......

....its one of the most blantant contradictions in Christianity......Jesus is God, God the Father is God, the Holy Ghost is God......but we only have one God......

People are human, Skizz. Everyone makes mistakes. Are you trying to state that only people of religion do bad things????
........#56 | Posted by Lisa

.....no....I am saying that bad people do bad things, good people do good things, but it takes religion to make good people do bad things.......

People who believe they know for fact that God does not exist, yet have no proof He doesn't.
#56 | Posted by Lisa

......there is an equal amount of evidence for the existence of the Tooth Fairy and Santa Claus, as there is for God, but you don't diss me for not believing in them do you ??.......

We won't know for sure unless we are dead, now will we Skizz?!
.......#56 | Posted by Lisa

......yes, I am certain..........

.....I know that God does not exist......

How do you know that those people who have claimed to do things that were bad in the name of religion, wouldn't have done bad things anyway???
.......#59 | Posted by Lisa

.......because......they did them in the name of religion.........

Are all bad things done by people of religion??
......#59 | Posted by Lisa

...of course not...I said before.......bad people do bad things.....

.....even people without faith do bad things, and people of faith sometimes do bad things against their own conscience.......

.....however....there is a great deal of evil wrought in the world in the name of religion.....
ALL RELIGIONS......

Do you believe everything everyone says, Skizz??
......#63 | Posted by Lisa

.......don't be silly......no one believes everything everyone says.......

.....we all filter the information as it comes to us, then we must weigh the unverified information and determine its validity........

......you......the believers......you are the gullible ones........

I'm not "dissing" you at all, I thought we were having a conversation.
......#62 | Posted by Lisa

.....I meant it as being "dismissive" more than as being insulting.....

I'm keeping civil.

#62 | Posted by Lisa

......I agree.......

But if you admit that bad people do bad things, how do you know that those who have done bad things claiming to have done them in the name of religion, aren't one of those bad people to begin with.
......#66 | Posted by Lisa

.....you take them at their word......

....I worked with a Muslim guy for many years....he prayed five times a day (even at work)...fasted.....he was religious to the point of asceticism........

......but he believed that anyone who gives up Islam should be killed, because his religion told him to......he has six childres.....they have grown up in the west....and I half expect that one day, if one of them says to him that they are not going to follow Islam, he will kill them, I know he believes its the right thing, he has told me so.....

.......same thing with the crusades, same thing with witch-burning.......

.....religions make good pious people do things they would otherwise not do.......

i would say that most people would agree
....#68 | Posted by NerfHerder

......so majority rules on the existence of God ?..

It's called FAITH, Skizz. It's not gullible to have Faith.
......#70 | Posted by Lisa

........I disagree.......

.....without our capacity to be gullible, there would never be any faith.......

......nor any religions........

....I mean, you must think that Shintos, Bhuddists, Muslims are all gullible to believe their religions......

......but they are just as fervent in their beiefs as you are......as the Wiccans were before the Christians exterminated or converted them......

.......they are all equally gullible......

we are responsible for our own salvation through our actions in life.
#74 | Posted by klifferd

.....then you are all doomed to hell for sure.....

(just kidding Kliff, couldn't resist)

so you don't follow along when folks come to a "consensus" without proof?
duly noted.
.......#79 | Posted by eberly

.....unlike you......I think for myself.......

is the Islam religion...not Christianity or other religions. It is not fair minded to blame all religions for the beliefs of one!

#80 | Posted by Lisa

......I haven't heard anyone apologize for the Inquistion, for witch-burning, for feudalism (which was made possible by the Church and the Divine Right of Kings), or for the crusades,.....

.....just in the last few days we had strings about people letting their kids die because they did not take them to the hospital.....they prayed instead till the kid dies of diabetes....they were good Christians.......but their religious belief made them kill their daughter.......

Not all religions order people to do things they wouldn't necessarily do!!
#80 | Posted by Lisa

......wrong......

....it is the nature of religion to make people do things that otherwise they would not do(even innocuous things like going to church on Sunday, following commandments, you yourself said that Christians are supposed to follow the commands of Christ )......if there was no compuction in a religion towards specific behavior, then there would be no function to the religion at all, the religion would be meaningless.........

However, there have been some people who's lives have been completely changed because of religion where they have STOPPED doing the bad things they had been doing.
.....#80 | Posted by Lisa

.....true......many a drug addicts and criminals have used religion as a mental focus to stop their criminal/addictive behaviours, that is one of the good uses of religion......

#86 | Posted by NerfHerder

.....two points.....

....first, you cite consesus as proof of validity, which is clearly false.....

.....second.....the start of the universe......does not require the injection of a deity.....

....we do not yet understand all the workings of the universe, and all the workings of time itself, but the day will come when the best amongst us will unravel these mysteries, much as Newton, Hawking and Einstein have begun.......

.....human progress is not done yet......

i would say that most people would agree

.....Nerf.....you have to drop this one, it means nothing......

.....go to Calcutta and most people would agree that Vishnu has 8 arms......still does not make it so......

......go to Mecca and most people will say that there is no God but Allah....does it make it so.?..( I would agree with them if they said that there is no God including Allah, but would that make it so ?)

"they were good Christians"
No, Skizz...they weren't!!!
......#88 | Posted by Lisa

....their faith was just as strong as yours.....

...and without their faith, they would have taken their daughter to the hospital....but they interpreted the Bible literally......

....thats what I mean by religious people doing evil in the name of religion, you keep denying that its possible.......

now, again, do you agree with the statement?
.....#93 | Posted by NerfHerder

.....I agree with the statement, however, in terms of causality, it is meaningless........

......you seem to not understand that no matter how many people agree with a supposition, the agreement has no bearing on the correctness of the supposition.......

......so to say that "most people agree" does not make your idea any more probable or any more correct........

I'm thinking if they weren't relgious

#94 | Posted by NerfHerder

...but they were religious, and they did kill the child with their faith in Jesus.....

.....them's the facts......

.....nite....

.....the mistery of the trinity.......
....its one of the most blantant contradictions in Christianity......Jesus is God, God the Father is God, the Holy Ghost is God......but we only have one God......
#55 | Posted by skizziks at 2009-10-09 03:39 PM | Reply | Flag:

Because the true God cannot be conceived of by the human mind is evidence for the existence of God. Sorry, but God is too big for you.
#104 | Posted by vernon

.....no....the concept is just too stupid.......

.....your religion is full of contradictions that prove it to be false.....when the contradictions are pointed out to you, then I become too dense to understand "the bigness" of it.......

......right.......