"If the president needs to hear the argument, then why wouldn't the voters need to hear the argument?"

Because decisions such as strategy should not be played out in the court of public opinion.

John Kennedy decided, against the advice of several advisors, not to send combat troops into Vietnam. His decision was reversed after his death. Just a good example of a President being right and his advisors being wrong. I hope Obama considers that decision made by Kennedy when he makes his about Afghanistan. The General kept saying "more troops" until we had over 500,000 but it still wasn't a winnable war. Let's not repeat that disaster.

Yeah we should have stayed in Vietnam and lost another 50,000 troops so that Vietnam would be a country we could do business with today.
What???
We are doing business with them everyday???
Then what was the war about???
What would a victory there have achieved and at what cost????
Gee whiz, at least we wouldn't be in Iraq and Afghanistan today if we had stayed....BECAUSE WE'D STILL BE FIGHTING IN VIETNAM!!!

"I can't help but be a little excited by the prospect of a growing rift between the upper echelons of the military and this clueless little fucking punk who has found himself playing "president"."

Do you remember a guy named Shinsecki????

If a "rift" should develop then that "rift" should be immediately forcibly retired.

"Are any of his appointments not fucked up?"

Are any of them the disasters that Rummy was????

Are any as bad as Brownie????

How about Bremer????

So far, none of the Obama appointees have been nearly as destructive to America as were just those three and there are plenty more Bushies that were utter disasters.

"If you feel the need to compare him to Bush in order to make yourself feel better about your vote, that should set off alarm bells."

Who are you going to compare a president to except another president???

I guess I could compare President Obama to God, the righties always do.

"Or how many times did you echo a fired generals take as gospel when it was critical to Bush, Rummy or Cheney?"

Except that he didn't listen to their advice, given privately, appropriately and which was about actual tactics and troop requirements not on the basic premise of the mission.

"and the fuckin liar president should get off his ass and do something instead of pushing the report to the side while men and women die to protect us."

Yeah, the "just do anything" approach. More brilliance from AFKBL2.

"And NOT his top elected officials?????? Like Pelosi? Murtha?"

Elected politicians, even private citizens are completely within their rights to criticize the president or question his orders, on-duty military personnel are not.

"no pres can be proven as to having lied so much and in such a short period of time too."

Find them WMDs yet, has the Al Quaeda - Saddam link been found????

No, didn't think so.

After eight years in a war it seems likely that real consideration needs to be given to the idea that we can't win a war in a country where no one has ever won a war. The Brits are on their fourth try with us right now. If Obama does commit to Gen. McChrystal's plan Americans need to realize that committment is not for six months or a year but for many years, many billions of dollars, many soldiers lives will be lost.
Personally, I used to think we needed to stay and finish the job in Afghanistan but I am lately starting to think it is just impossible for us to really succeed there and that we should probably do what we should have done in the first place, use tactical teams, drones and missiles to target Al Quaeda but not try to govern Afghanistan.

"washington and braddock during the french and indian war for instance..."

Are you kidding me????

There wasn't even a United States much less a president at that time.

"makes the point that McChrystal fully understood EXACTLY what he was doing and viewed as the "best" course of action."

I don't doubt that his plan is probably the best if the president decides we are going to stay and NATION BUILD in Afghanistan but the decision of whether or not we are going to is not for the General to make nor should it be.

"he is creating a powerful and legitimate alliance of Americans in position to stop him if his Marxist power grab gets out of hand."

Treasonous. Jak Se Mao ought to be seeing the FBI at his door soon.

"Funny. I seem to remember you and most other experts here, whining about not enough troops were sent, and Bush took his eye off the ball. He should have sent another 10,000 into Tora Bora. What happened to this line of war criticism?"

It is still the feeling of most of us and most of the military people I've heard on the subject agree with it. They way our one real chance of success in Afghanistan was during the first two years there, now after being there for eight years it will be nearly impossible to convince the Afghanis that we can protect them from the Taliban. Why would they believe us now when they have watched for eight years and seen we can't???

"Get your facts straight before you mas a complete Ass of yourself..."

It's way too late for that.

"AGREED, in part... the war was won in the first 120 days"

Huh??? They captured or killed Osama Bin Laden and destroyed Al Quaeda and eliminated the threat they posed???

If not then it is bull shit to claim the war was won at all. The war in Afghanistan has not been won, probably will not be won no matter how many billions we spend, no matter how many troops we are willing to sacrifice. Instead of telling Obama to read the art of war, which you have no way of knowing if he has or not, perhaps you should read a history book. Pay close attention to attemps throughout history to invade and conquer Afghanistan.

"Where are the two cheeks (danni and Celisary) that make up an ass? I thought they wanted the straight facts? You don't suppose they read the post and can't refute the fact Obama can't take credit for the extra troops."

February 18, 2009

""Reporting from Washington - President Obama ordered his first major deployment of U.S. combat troops Tuesday, authorizing 17,000 additional soldiers and Marines for Afghanistan in what he described as an urgent bid to stabilize a deteriorating and neglected country.

The deployment will double the number of American combat brigades in the nation at a time of tension with Afghanistan's weak government over civilian casualties of the campaign against the increasingly bold Taliban, and concern over neighboring Pakistan's ability to fight Islamic militants based there.

In a statement announcing the troop increase, Obama directed veiled criticism at the Bush administration, noting that a request from Army Gen. David D. McKiernan, the top U.S. commander in Afghanistan, had been pending for months.""

"US commanders have said they would like to almost double the number of American troops in Afghanistan, an increase from about 32,000 to 60,000."

They would like to, but without an order from the President they would not get the troops. President Obama talked of sending more troops to Afghanistan early in the presidential campaign, long before these NATO Generals said "they would like to" send in more troops. When he took office he ORDERED the troops into Afghanistan which Bush had not done for months. No matter how you cut it, Obama took charge and ordered in the additional troops that Bush would not.

"I was letting it go Hag. I noticed that Danni basically declared Afghanistan Obama's War."

He ordered the generals to give him a full report on what is happening in Afghanistan and the results were pretty awful, then the election was found to be corrupt and his new leader in Afghanistan is saying that only long term nation building will solve Afghanistan's problems....pretty good reasons to reevaluate.

"They knew back in Sept. that more troops were going to Afghanisatn? But, but Obama wasn't even president then?"

Yeah, big deal, Obama was saying they needed more troops in Afghanistan long before that. He like lots of us thought they should have sent far more troops in when we first entered the country but some moron, can't remember his name, sent them to Iraq instead.
Your goal is simply to try and prevent President Obama from taking credit for anything he actually has done, I don't want to play that game any more.
Fact is, he ordered in the additional troops (for better or for worse), Bush didn't.

Obama Begins Afghanistan Tour
By Aryn Baker/Kabul Saturday, Jul. 19, 2008

"" Obama has promised that he would redeploy two more US combat brigades to the Afghan theatre, ask NATO for more troops and fewer restrictions on those troops, accelerate the training of the national army and police, encourage alternative livelihood crops for opium farmers and help support the fledgling Afghan government.""

Crispee I have proven that Obama's intent to send in more troops was long before he was even elected, then once elected, as ai proved, he did exactly that. The fact that the generals agreed with him, in now way diminishes the fact that he carried out the plan he said he was going to carry out long before he even had the nomination. YOu just like to keep picking at the scab on your wounded ego, leave it alone and it will heal.

All of y'all claiming Obama is "a clueless idiot", etc. don't really have anything concrete to even base your opinions on. The guy entered the presidency with two wars, one going extremely badly due to mismanagement by his predecessor, an economy ready to go into a deep depression and then you want some kind of miracles now.
I'd have to say that if you presented the information to a truely unbiased judge I believe he would say that those expecting miracles are the clueless idiots.

"You never condemned the likes of Kennedy"

Did Kennedy advocate a coup???? I don't remember that.

"But you do? Funny how enough proof is not there to condemn him, but there is enough for you to tout him."

I've criticized him here on DR plenty of times but I don't have enough information yet, were you ready to trash Bush after nine months?? Like about three weeks after 9-11??? If I recall many of y'all were still blaming Clinton for just about everything under the sun.

"Was sick the day Bay of Pigs was taught in history class"

You don't know your history. Kennedy never agreed to the Bay of Pigs invasion which was planned by Richard Nixon for an October surprise to help him win the election. Kennedy had told them that he was not going to send air cover for their, in the end, illegal invasion of a foreign country. Clue here: private citizens do not have the right in America to declare war on foreign countries. And they especially don't have the right to order the US military to participate in their illegal wars.

"were you ready to trash Bush after nine months??"

I wasn't calling you a Bushie, I'm just saying that my defense of Obama isn't quite the same thing as "touting" him. I just want to give him a chance, see what he does, he'll be in office another three years at least. I would imagine though that you weren't bashing Bush three weeks after 9-11 were you??? I wasn't.

Jeff I just reviewed the Bay of Pigs invasion and I got it somewhat wrong but then from what I just read so does pretty much everyone else.

This site seems to be pretty informative with actual testimony from the investigation ordered by Kennedy after the invasion failed. It was classified for a long time so that accounts for much of the confusion about it.

"The fact that the demos want to cut and run from every war in history since WWII."

Is George Will now a Democrat???
BTW, how many more thousands of American troops should we have sacrificed for a victory in Vietnam and if we had won there what would be different today???

"I am beginning to think danni reads some sort of Grimms version of history."

Which would be more than you read that is for sure.
At least when I discovered my own error I corrected myself, you won't even admit it when you make one.

"I am beginning to think danni reads some sort of Grimms version of history."

Which would be more than you read that is for sure.
At least when I discovered my own error I corrected myself, you won't even admit it when you make one.

"Richard Nixon stated in Six Crises: "The covert training of Cuban exiles by the CIA was due in substantial part, at least, to my efforts. This had been adopted as a policy as a result of my direct support."[1] "President Eisenhower had ordered the CIA to arm and train the exiles in May of 1960. Nixon and his advisors wanted the CIA invasion to take place before the voters went to the polls on November 8, 1960."[2]"

"Sorry, Danni, but it was a black, male, liberal who first called Obama the Messiah, not the right wing."

I don't know who started it but I do know who says it all the time.

John B.
If you click on the link I posted above you'll learn that it wasn't that simple. Kennedy did take responsibility but he also ordered an investigation into the matter which was classified for many years. The link sheds new light on the story which Kennedy did have a role in but not as direct as people previously believed and much of the story which has been out in the world was the version told by the three CIA officials Kennedy fired for screwing up.

"And if Bush were a Fabian socialist punk attempting to nationalize huge swaths of our economy, it might even make sense."

Hate to break it to you Jak, Bush did socialize a huge swath of our economy, specifically the banking industry. You didn't notice the TARP bail out of investment bankers???? What else would you call that?? And yes, nasty things were said by me and others about Bush, but we did not advocate a coup. We never advocated an assasination. MOst of us never referred to him as Hitler though some of us did think he had fascist tendencies and quite honestly, I still do.

"South Vietnam was conquored by INVADERS from the outside, and was abandoned by its allies."

Yeah, it was conquered by Vietnamese people.
And you are whining that Congress wouldn't send troops back into Vietnam????
Crazy, crazy, crazy.

Whatever loonietunes, we finally got out of Vietnam and you crazies wanted us to go back in.

Shaking head in amazement.

" heard a middle east expert from pakistan say that if america left afghanistan it would be a "disaster for the west"."

I can find "a middle east expert from Pakistan" to say the exact opposite. The decision about Afghanistan will not be made by loonies like you fortunately. The committment if we stay and nation build will be decades and a trillion dollars that we don't have and hundreds or even thousands of American soldiers lives....for what???
Whenever we leave, be it now, in a year, in ten years....the place will revert to the same way it was before we went there. American can't create democracies in Muslim countries where we don't belong. How many times do we have relearn the same lesson we should have learned from Vietnam.

""and its obvious that his generals are frustrated with him."

They were pretty angry when Kennedy didn't want to send combat troops into Vietnam but he was right and they were wrong. Too bad his decision was reversed by Johnson, too bad Johnson kept exaccerbating the problem by allowing them to pressure him for more and more and more troops until we had 550,000 over there and still couldn't win.
Presidents are elected to decide policy, Generals are promoted through the ranks to carry out that policy.
As it should be.
BTW, remember when you say presidents should listen to the generals on the ground, he can change those generals on the ground and most war time president have done exactly that including George Bush.