Wow, Lisa,

I must say considering your other posts I've read, your belief that challenged students don't have a chance to be educated to the best of their ability and are just being "babysitted" is quite a change.

Perhaps I am misunderstanding your post?

If your friend who works in that field feels that way, WTF are they doing working with challenged students?

A few other points:

Despite the continual bashing/smearing of public schools by repugs since reagan, 90% of all Americans are educated in public schools.

95% before 1990.

THINK on that for a minute, then consider what our lives and country would be like if not for public education.

And if you are able to THINK, thank a teacher today....

Lisa

All due respect, just because you believe a child cannot learn, doesn't make it so.

All of us are capable of learning to communicate/interact and increase our abilities to reach the next step in our existence imho. Challenged students do so differently and at different rates, just as we all do. And even where progress is not evident, let's try to understand the possibilities of increased "quality of life" by attending/attempting/
socializing as opposed to staying home, locked away from society and others.

Uh, these parents pay taxes and their children deserve the same respect and care as any other people's children who are more conventional learners.

I'm sorry your friend is in that field if they don't know these things.
I believe that "learned helplessness" by enablers who cannot see the value of education for all is nearly as detrimental as negligence.

Can you tell, I'm a 30 year/retired special ed teacher? LOL

Emotionally/Behaviorally challenged. Multiply/Physically handicapped. Blind/Visually impaired. Mentally challenged. Deaf. Deaf and Blind...

In all that time, I never saw an individual that could not progress in some way to the next step or one that did not benefit from being around others, afforded access to their communities and given the chance to improve their lives.

All I ask is THINK about it and perhaps pass it along to your friend who is making a living from these students, eh?

I'm sorry if you don't like the situation that some kids just can't be educated because of handicaps...I don't like it either. But it is a fact. And it's also a fact that some states require that no one, not even children in that kind of state, are discriminated against.

#21 | POSTED BY LISA AT 2009-08-31 10:49 AM

All due respect Lisa

This is NOT the current beliefs by the leaders in this field of education.

If you or your friend believe some people are "vegetables" who cannot learn or communicate, etc, that is just your opinion from what you know, not a fact. Try to realize that. I find it hard to accept that as a fact from a teacher's aide or layperson. Could it be you and your friend just are not educated well enough yet in the tenets of special education?

Thank God for laws that prohibit discrimination based on what some people "think", because they are unable to "reach" a student.

But then, I'm merely speaking from 30 years experience in studying best practices and implementing ed programs for challenged students I listed. Perhaps if I had the keen insight of a teacher's aide and volunteer painter in that room, I might change my opinion, eh?

Sorry too, if my sarcasm seems harsh, but it's no more harsh than someone thinking they can make a decision on someone else's life based on their own limited understanding and education on the subject.

jest

I'll take what you say with a grain of salt due to your moniker.

Namecalling and insults are not arguments.

Do you have an argument that states some facts based on references or personal experience?

Let's hear it.

??

#35 | POSTED BY AFKABL2 AT 2009-08-31 12:06 PM

I'm truly unsure of what your post says. ?? Could you explain it better?
I don't expect every student to learn the same way, but still to be able to take whatever next step enhances their quality of life and be included.

What is offensive to me is someone thinking they could possibly decide who can and cannot benefit from education and claiming some challenged student's parents just see it as "babysitting". Walk a mile in a challenged parent's shoes, eh?

But, you did say you were childless if I recall correctly so I don't expect you to understand watching your child come through the door excited about his grades, or helping him with a school problem he didn't quite understand, or one of any countless examples in comparison to simply being babysat.
I'm sure teachers would appreciate your low opinion of the great efforts they put into their lessons....something babysitters wouldn't do.

#56 | POSTED BY LISA AT 2009-08-31 12:54 PM |

Again, just because YOU and your friend do not see that student as being able to learn, does NOT make it so. Maybe your friend might want to enhance her own education to better serve the student population that affords her a living?

I am 60 yrs old. I have raised 5 children and have 7 grandchildren and am currently raising the 6th of those 7 grandkids in my retirement.

As I said, I taught special education as a teacher and coordinator of special ed programs for 30 years. If you feel you know better, that's nice for you, but doesn't make your opinion valid on this child.

WHO will make the decisions on who you believe should and should not be educated Lisa. I have seen many students that you describe and eventually someone discovers the KEY to reaching them, helping them have some control over their own lives and learn to communicate their needs and wants to others. Are these not valid educational goals in your eyes?

Ever sit in on any due process hearings for parents of challenged students? Those parents pay taxes too, my friend. Their kids deserve the same benefits that A students deserve in my opinion AND in the opinion of the laws of our land.

I have to wonder how that child's parents that YOU claim cannot learn would feel to know that is how her teaching asst feels about the child and situation? Especially since that aide is being PAID to work with their child. Perhaps some more education is needed there......?? for the aide, I mean?

For those who think I'm being offensive to Lisa:

WHO is it that is being offensive here? I am standing up for ALL students to be INCLUDED in our educational process, not just some who can learn academics or can easily be 'reached'.

All due respect (which i included on every post to you..,eh)

The public schools here are horrendous, turning out drug addicted gang bangers who can't read, write, spell or speak properly.

#60 | POSTED BY OZARKMTNCUR AT 2009-08-31 01:00 PM

90 PERCENT of Americans are educated in public schools. Prior to 1990, 95 %.

Your simplistic hysterical bs is not supported by FACTS, eh?

Glad you can afford private school for your kids. Many, perhaps most cannot, so that makes you one of the ELITE 10%.

The idea that vouchers that pay the amount it costs to publicly educate students, will pay for private education is a LIE. Those vouchers ONLY help those already able to pay for private schools, not poor rural and inner city students.

Want to improve public education? Stop funding it with property taxes. Stop taking public money to fund private schools and untested charter schools.

(I watch daily as bus after bus from every outlying county delivers private school students to the parochial HS across the street. Know who pays for that? WE DO! Imagine the rising costs as gas reached $4 a gallon! You may say, but woke, those parents pay taxes too....and so they do....their taxes pay for the local PUBLIC school down the street from where they reside and if they choose, they could get involved in insuring those schools do a good job....many public schools do.....after all, 90 PERCENT of Americans are still educated in PUBLIC SCHOOLS!)

That is right. Public school teachers have a union. Actually, they have a couple of unions. And THAT is why the reagan/repugs chose to ATTACK public schools in part....because those union people vote for candidates that support public education over private/parochial education.

THINK

One other thing. Teachers are by far the lowest paid professionals who have advanced education in America. And many do a job others do no want or cannot do.....in class with various ages of children for 7+ hours a day, then take their work home every night AND spend the summers going back to school to improve what they do.

THINK

"I watch daily as bus after bus from every outlying county delivers private school students to the parochial HS across the street. Know who pays for that? WE DO!"
Huh? Wouldn't the parochial school be paying for these services?

#80 | POSTED BY DANFORTH AT 2009-08-31 02:01 PM

Interesting isn't it? How people BALKED at BUSING kids across town to achieve racial balance and insure all schools get the same attention, yet THEN allowed legislators to write a bill that has PUBLIC school money going to pay to TRANSPORT private school students from other counties BACK into parochial schools after their "white flight"....

Transportation: Students, grades K-8, who attend nonpublic schools and reside more than 2 miles from school and within 30 minutes travel time by yellow school bus from the public school of assignment to the nonpublic school will receive transportation unless the local and State Board of Education deems the transportation unnecessary or unreasonable. In lieu of transportation, the board may reimburse families the costs of transportation. School boards may provide students, grades 9-12, transportation to and from nonpublic schools. The boards must provide transportation for students with disabilities. Transportation is conditioned on the school's nondiscrimination in the selection of pupils, faculty members, and employees based on race, color, religion or national origin. Ohio Rev. Code Ann. 3327.01.

Transportation for students attending sectarian schools does not violate the Ohio constitutional provision prohibiting religious control over state school funds.Honohan v. Holt, 244 NE2d 537 (1968).

Lisa

Maybe those parents need more education, as well as yourself and the teaching asst. This is part of the school's responsibilities imo, to help the parents learn appropriate ways of interacting with that student and meeting their needs.

Is that possible that this child might improve if given the right program and people implementing it?

Why don't you try this and pass it on to your friend.

Google "low incidence special education best practices"

See how much of these best practices have been attempted with this student....THEN, let me know how long they were tried, and WHO should make the decision to EXCLUDE that person from our educational systems.

Obviously, there may indeed be better programs and people to work with this student. That doesn't mean they should be EXCLUDED.

Get it?

Sorry to those who may feel offended by my posts.

I have spent a better portion of my life advocating for those who cannot advocate for themselves.

Her brain doesn't function.
Get it?

#96 | POSTED BY LISA AT 2009-08-31 02:53 PM

I never said I was the smartest person. However, I do believe that I have some insight having been trained for a number of years including ongoing education AND worked with low incidence students for over 20 of my 30 years in education.

Sorry if you feel the need to attack me for my opinion, which is based on working with exactly those kinds of students that others are unable to "reach".

Not everyone's brain functions the way ours does. Does that make them LESS able to benefit from community interaction and access...

What is your solution Lisa? What is the alternative to education for this child? For many decades, these students were left to their own devices ALONE, EXCLUDED, ridiculed, etc......

Just because the people around this student are unable to get any responses, doesn't mean their brain isn't functioning, just that it functions differently.

Do the research i suggest. Go into that room and remove that child from their wheelchair. Sit with them cradled with you in a rocker.....rock for awhile, then stop. Does the child indicate in any way (movement, vocalization, eye movement) that they want the rocking to begin or stop? This is the beginning of interacting with people who cannot communicate in "regular" manner. Swimming pools also afford the opportunity for those who are physically handicapped to be released from their gravitational bondage to a point. Music, art, just being included in a room of other students. Having the other students learn to include them and interact with them is a benefit to both groups.

Sometimes, it was my brain that wasn't working correctly, when I could not find a way to interact with or see progress in a student.

As for the insults and namecalling etc from those who don't fully understand where I'm coming from.....no problem for me....enjoy your well functioning brains and be thankful.

Let me know how that all came out for you in about 10 years.

Think of what a group of concerned parents can accomplish should they choose to become involved in the schools that need improvement.

Seems like that might be a good strategy, especially considering you are still paying for it, eh? Seems like you are giving a lot up, "sports, or bands, or chiors" and that's a tough decision. There are studies that show that student's involved in extra curricular activities do better academically and socially....I believe one shows that music students are better in math, so you might get them involved in music and some other social venues....church, etc.

60% grad rate is a tough figure. Unfortunate for the 40%, but better for the 60% than if they had no education. No?

I'm glad you have the money and your child was accepted. Private schools have no mandate to take all students (behavioral/poor/handicapped, etc) and many hand pick them by abilities (on and off the playing field) and parental generosity. They also have fewer if any federal mandates insuring a certain level of education or certificate for their teachers or programming.

Realize that studies show that the actual factors that impact education the MOST are: PARENTAL involvement-which private schools can demand, and POVERTY-which private schools don't have to deal with since those attending are from homes that can afford private ed.

I'm glad for your child, however, try to realize that there are NOT enough private schools and never will be to make up the difference between 10%=private 90%=public and THAT is the problem with those who believe the solution is to throw the baby out with the bathwater....(ie..close public schools and/or siphon off public money to untested charter schools and private vouchers), instead of improve them.

Thanks for listening.....er...reading.

Ok now, regarding this article of JJ's topic

Even the last two, it seems to me, would be a way of evidencing those six goals......yet, mr. nonbiased decides that these must be the insidious rantings of the "FAR LEFT".......LOL.

*recognizing the interdependence of people
*seeking social justice

He believes these are not character development tools, but codes for "rubbish" that means we must redistribute wealth and practice racial/sex quotas"

HELLO mr. paranoid.....!! LOL You got our attention now.....FAR LEFT you say?? LOL

He then goes on to impart perhaps one of the actual reasons for his editorial....that a person who was elected to the school board not of his liking and political persuasion must be responsible for these outrages...LOL

HiLARRYous

Here's another "nugget" from mr. nonbiased

"There's irony in the fact that most teachers roll their eyes and laugh about this nonsense. "

See that word "most" JJ. Ya hear that all the time from people who don't have the facts quite yet...Most teachers, most scientists, most people, do this or that, believe this or that......etc....That's another "dead giveaway" that good old Glenn is entitiled to his opinion, but thinks he can sway people with his empty rhetoric alone.

Imho, MOST teachers would love to see those social constructs applied, not only to society as a whole, but to their school environs.....where they have to deal FIRSTHAND on a daily basis with the antisocial and antischool attitudes that create problems.
Wonder where "some" kids get those attittudes about school? LOL

If Glenn thinks no social/get along education should be taught/learned, maybe his homeschooling program will afford his children opportunities to interact and learn how to live peaceably with their neighbors. Or not, eh?

Finally, Glenn goes on to tell us all how going to college and studying particular areas in depth, is "soul crushing" and their education subsisted of "windbaggery". Ol Glenn prefers the dumbing down of Americans, I take it??

I have to wonder how many hours Glenn has ever spent as a volunteer on the school board or helping to determine appropriate goals. Nope, just easier to wait till the heavy lifting is done, and then criticize the results. Maybe Glenn could get involved with those "FAR LEFT" people who wrote those goals and those trying to implement them?? Bet those FAR LEFTIES cannot wait to work with open/civic minded Glenn, eh? LOL

Good topic JJ......and i appreciate you taking the time and effort to post on here for us, however, let me give you a hint....whenever someone uses a phrase like "far left", you can be sure what they have to say is gonna partisan, biased and not to be taken too seriously......and probably "FAR RIGHT".

.blather and pap, eh?

LOL

"We are all the more reconciled to the tax on importations, because it falls exclusively on the rich, and with the equal partition of intestate's estates, constitutes the best agrarian law.. Our revenues once liberated by the discharge of the public debt, and its surplus applied to canals, roads, schools, etc., and the farmer will see his government supported, his children educated, and the face of his country made a paradise by the contributions of the rich alone, without his being called on to spare a cent from his earnings."
--Thomas Jefferson to Thaddeus Kosciusko, 1811. ME 13:41

and here's a nice quotation from the last decent, non-neocon republican....

"Should any political party attempt to abolish social security, unemployment insurance, and eliminate labor laws and farm programs, you would not hear of that party again in our political history. There is a tiny splinter group, of course, that believes that you can do these things. Among them are a few Texas oil millionaires, and an occasional politician or businessman from other areas. Their number is negligible and they are stupid."

Dwight David Eisenhower

I also find it interesting, or is it ludicrous?, that the same people railing against spending less than a trillion for ten years to provide healthcare for AMERICANS to "promote the general welfare", have NO PROBLEM with spending 2 trillion (and counting) to invade/occupy/destroy/
killandmaim people in foreign countries that did not attack the usa...which the money went directly into the pockets of huge global war/oil corps and opec......Can any of them in good conscience pretend that was for "national defense"????

We have been compelled to create a permanent armaments industry of vast proportions. Added to this, three and a half million men and women are directly engaged in the defense establishment. We annually spend on military security alone more than the net income of all United States cooperations -- corporations.

Now this conjunction of an immense military establishment and a large arms industry is new in the American experience. The total influence -- economic, political, even spiritual -- is felt in every city, every Statehouse, every office of the Federal government. We recognize the imperative need for this development. Yet, we must not fail to comprehend its grave implications. Our toil, resources, and livelihood are all involved. So is the very structure of our society.

In the councils of government, we must guard against the acquisition of unwarranted influence, whether sought or unsought, by the military-industrial complex. The potential for the disastrous rise of misplaced power exists and will persist. We must never let the weight of this combination endanger our liberties or democratic processes. We should take nothing for granted. Only an alert and knowledgeable citizenry can compel the proper meshing of the huge industrial and military machinery of defense with our peaceful methods and goals, so that security and liberty may prosper together.

Dwight David Eisenhower (farewell address)

Ike saw it coming and tried to warn us. The same people who are warning us against "socialism" that would benefit us all, seem to me to be dupes for this other group who are spending our taxes on unnecessary weapons and wars....

eh?