hmmm the argument seems to be that enough violence wasnt perpetrated to qualify as torture

yet individuals were waterboarded over 100 times

yet individuals died

yet the supposed distinction is that the gun was pointed at the head and only cocked next to the head.

ignoring the fact that threats were made against family members, mothers and children-which is a violation

then there are a section on parsing the language of unauthorized while ignoring the facts that the interrogators themselves believed they were doing stuff that was illegal as expressed in their own fears of being prosecuted.

the frickin article keeps crashing on my PC so couldnt read the third page.

some additional considerations ignored in what I read, much of the information is redacted and presumably Holder has read, serious physical harm was induced-separated shoulders, waterboarding was not conducted in an approved manner.

I have more to add but have to track down something on my computer

Crimeny, I had a series of posts on the Afghan Teen Released from Gitmo thread yesterday which appears to have been thrown down the Memory Hole. The posts had pastes from a Slate article that made several interesting points.

nah my PC just crashes once in a while, graphics heavy websites I think confuse it.

crap I have been posting to the wrong thread

here let me cut and paste some shit

ahhhh found it

Pressure point technique was used on detainees-essentially choking the detainee- "with both hands on the detainees neck" "manipulated the fingers to restrict the detainee's carotid artery"

Used contractors to conduct interrogations

Used foreign intelligence services to conduct interrogations.

Interrogators killed a detainee in Afghanistan

hmmm crap, that wasnt the thread, still looking

BTW the link between torture policies and abu graib needs to be investigated as well.

www.salon.com

To those blithely dismissing all of this as things that don't seem particularly bothersome, I'd say two things:

(1) The fact that we are not really bothered any more by taking helpless detainees in our custody and (a) threatening to blow their brains out, torture them with drills, rape their mothers, and murder their children; (b) choking them until they pass out; (c) pouring water down their throats to drown them; (d) hanging them by their arms until their shoulders are dislocated; (e) blowing smoke in their face until they vomit; (f) putting them in diapers, dousing them with cold water, and leaving them on a concrete floor to induce hypothermia; and (g) beating them with the butt of a rifle -- all things that we have always condemend as "torture" and which our laws explicitly criminalize as felonies ("torture means. . . the threat of imminent death; or the threat that another person will imminently be subjected to death, severe physical pain or suffering . . .") -- reveals better than all the words in the world could how degraded, barbaric and depraved a society becomes when it lifts the taboo on torturing captives.

(2) As I wrote rather clearly, numerous detainees died in U.S. custody, often as a direct result of our "interrogation methods." Those who doubt that can read the details here and here. Those claiming there was no physical harm are simply lying -- death qualifies as "physical harm" -- and those who oppose prosecutions are advocating that the people responsible literally be allowed to get away with murder.

www.salon.com

The interrogation and detention regime implemented by the U.S. resulted in the deaths of over 100 detainees in U.S. custody -- at least

As Gen. Barry McCaffrey recently put it:

We should never, as a policy, maltreat people under our control, detainees. We tortured people unmercifully. We probably murdered dozens of them during the course of that, both the armed forces and the C.I.A.

Journalist and Human Rights Watch researcher John Sifton similarly documented that "approximately 100 detainees, including CIA-held detainees, have died during U.S. interrogations, and some are known to have been tortured to death."

action.aclu.org

autopsy reports indicating death by torture

www.dailykos.com

According to the autopsy report (PDF), Habibullah was not injured when he first arrived at the Bagram detention facility:

MEDICAL RECORD REVIEW: Copies of the inprocessing evaluation are reviewed in full. The clinical portion documents the decedent as "appearing well", without injuries and offering "moderate resistance to inprocessing". The decedent was "dead on arrival" per the Medical Treatment Facility (MTF) Emergency Room record which was otherwise non-contributory.

On autopsy, however, Habibullah's body bore the stigmata of torture (Graphic content warning):
Head and Neck: Multiple abrasions and contusions and evidence of ligature or other instrument applied to the neck:

On the right side of the neck there are two parallel, faint, linear abraded contusions. each averaging 1 1/4 x 1/4 inches with 1/2 inch separation between the two. They average approximately 10 inches below the top of the head and three inches to the right of the anterior midline. Just to the left of these is a similar, fainter, patchy abraded contusion in
approximately the same dimensions.

Torso: Multiple contusions and abrasions including "brush burn" injuries consistent with being dragged on the ground.

Extremities: Multiple contusions and abrasions, including injuries around the wrists consistent with shackling. On the thighs were linear contusions likely made from being struck with blunt objects. The patterns in the skin of the left calf revealed the likely source of the injuries- combat boots:

On the back of the left knee and calf is a 11 x 7 1/2 inch red-dark purple contusion which extends upwards above the back of the knee in a linear fashion. On internal examination, confluent hemorrhage extends deep within the muscle which is focally necrotic. On the left calf, centrally located, is a patterned abrasion consisting of multiple parallel horizontal linear abrasions the largest averaging 1 1/2 x 1/4 inches, these are closely spaced.

The Autopsy listed the cause of death as "Pulmonary embolism due to blunt force injuries", and the manner of death as homicide

emptywheel.firedoglake.com

evidence of possible cover up for torture deaths.

go to the wednesday nooner for the actual clickable links I was posting on the wrong thread.

What irritates me is when people argue that torture (whatever that means) NEVER works and/or that polite requests for info are actually MORE successful than the exertion of pressure coupled with demands for info among hardened and trained extremists who are willing to give up their lives for their twisted cause.

I can understand and respect the legal and moral argument against such techniques. But let's keep it real. This shit works! It is not 100% - no method is. But exerted pressure is far more successful than passive bullshit.

This is common-sense.

The issue is where to draw the line - NOT whether or not the ugly-side of the line is effective.

#6 | Posted by JeffJ

How many innocent people have to be killed and brutalized to keep you safe?

Caution Deflection Alert

Libtards are fucking pussies.

we killed people dumbass.

How many innocent people have to be killed and brutalized to keep you safe?

Anyone that knows anything about interrogation methods will tell you that torture does not work.

Actually, it does work.

It is not 100% foolproof, nor is it pretty; but it does work.

#27 | Posted by JeffJ

so the question remains jeff, how many innocent people are you willing to kill and brutalize to keep you safe?

This aint solely about waterboarding 3 of the worst terrorists.

This is about government policy to either condone or actively engage in brutal treatment of detainees up to and including murdering them.

This is about culpability for abu graib.

This is about using torture to gain intelligence to justify a war of agression.

This is about falisfying autopsy reports to cover up murder.

This is about rendering detainees to nations that will torture them.

This is about disappearing people.

the dems will be sorry they started this whole matter is the main point...

hopefully american citizens by the thousands wont be the ones paying the price....

#53 | Posted by afkabl2

they already did, www.icasualties.org