Drudge Retort: Red Meat for Yellow Dogs
Wednesday, October 15, 2008

Over the past few weeks, in a series of television ads, in stump speeches, and in the presidential and vice presidential debates, the Obama campaign has sought mightily to attack John McCain's proposal for health care reform.

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"the Obama campaign has sought mightily to attack John McCain's proposal for health care reform."

WOW!
That's some hot news you got there.
Film at 11?

"John McCain's proposal for health care reform."

Is that the same plan which wouldn't accept John McCain?

wow! i'm glad somebody else posted this as i posted it before realizing i'd gone over the daily two post limit.

this is quite telling:

"The case for McCain's plan can be made very plainly: If you like your coverage as it is, the plan will let you keep it and you will pocket a little more money at tax time. If you don't like your coverage now, the plan will give you a lot more options to choose from and let you use the same money your employer now uses to pay for them. And, if you don't have insurance today, the McCain plan will offer you more options, reduce costs in the market for individual insurance, and put you $5,000 closer to having health insurance. Obama's plan would push tens of millions of people out of private insurance they like and into a vast government program. It would, moreover, raise taxes on hiring in hard economic times and break the federal budget."

the thought of ANOTHER government agency messing in our livelihoods chills me to the bone.

"the thought of ANOTHER government agency messing in our livelihoods chills me to the bone."

Hey, Cindy McCain seemed to have the same problem when Obama voted against funding (while forgeting her husband did as well).

Don't worry, you'll get used to it.

You'll even thank Obama for it later.

i highly doubt that, doc. i cannot think of one thing i'd thank obama for - he has nothing to offer.

"You'll even thank Obama for it later."

Posted by Fake Sarvis

The same way I thank Johnson for his wonderful war on poverty which has so far cost $6T and done nothing to the poverty rate.

Obama's plan will be just as cost effective (i.e. lots of cost and no effect).

"And, if you don't have insurance today, the McCain plan will offer you more options, reduce costs in the market for individual insurance, and put you $5,000 closer to having health insurance"

This author hasn't studied much history. All this will do is make every plan which doesn't cost $5,000 or more to cost $5,000 or more.

"war on poverty which has so far cost $6T and done nothing to the poverty rate."

Stupid is as stupid does. The poverty rate has dropped precipitously.

#6 | Posted by FreddyK at 2008-10-15 01:11 PM


Nah, Freddie, even an outted ignoramus like you will benefit from the program and probably even be able to put enough marbles together to thank Mr. Obama.

But, then again, you and Nanc strike me as people who been voting against their own self-interest for quite so time so it might take a while for you to get deprogrammed.

"Stupid is as stupid does. The poverty rate has dropped precipitously."

Posted by Danfroth

Total BS! The poverty rate decreased much before the war on poverty started in 65-68 and has not changed much since.

Hope you studied graphs in school.

en.wikipedia.org

The poverty rate has dropped precipitously.

link?

"Nah, Freddie, even an outted ignoramus like you will benefit from the program and probably even be able to put enough marbles together to thank Mr. Obama."

Posted by Doc_Sarvis

No thanks Fake Doc. I have great health care that I pay for and get from my own private doctor. I don't want government health care. I am very familiar with the government run health care such as the VA and I don't want it.

I guess I am saying that I don't think the poverty rate has changed meaningfully in 40 years.

danforth? how do you figure? of course we have three-plus times as many people than in 1959 - will you please help me with the graph?

"from 1963 when Lyndon Johnson took office until 1970 as the impact of his Great Society programs were felt, the portion of Americans living below the poverty line dropped from 22.2 percent to 12.6 percent,

www.nationmaster.com

"I guess I am saying that I don't think the poverty rate has changed meaningfully in 40 years."

#13 | Posted by eberly

You are correct but it went down during the 50's and early 60's and the "War on Poverty" coincided with it failing to decrease further.

1968 to present = $6T and no change.

"will you please help me with the graph?"

Look at the straight downward trend during the Clinton years, and the straight upward trend during the Bush years.

Bush undoes all the good, and that somehow proves it doesn't work?

What's next: Government is the problem, let us get in power and we'll prove it!?!

www.census.gov

the last time the poverty rate was above 20% was in 1962....well before Johnson.


"from 1963 when Lyndon Johnson took office until 1970 as the impact of his Great Society programs were felt, the portion of Americans living below the poverty line dropped from 22.2 percent to 12.6 percent,"

Posted by Danforth

Again BS Danforth. The article I posted from Wikipedia has the graph from the official government census data. Johnson took office at the end of 63 and his first programs were passed in the fall congress of 64 and were phased in 65-68. Once those programs had an effect poverty rate no longet went down.

The poverty rate was 22% in 1958 and was down to 16 % in 65 before any of Johnson's programs came into effect. Please read the real graph from the US census.

Look at the straight downward trend during the Clinton years, and the straight upward trend during the Bush years.


Bush undoes all the good, and that somehow proves it doesn't work?


It went down during Reagan years also.

You are making a "danni" argument.

"It went down during Reagan years also."

And straight up during the Bush years. What's your point?

Mine is: The current so-called Republicans fuck it up, and then proclaim "See?!? We told you it doesn't work!

"What's next: Government is the problem, let us get in power and we'll prove it!?!

#17 | Posted by Danforth at 2008-10-15 01:38 PM | Reply | Flag:"

are they suddenly going to START working FOR the people instead of against them? power is a very fragile thing, danforth.

The current so-called Republicans fuck it up, and then proclaim "See?!? We told you it doesn't work!

It hasn't changed meaningfully in the last 8 years. What do you mean? that Bush couldn't lower the poverty rate to single digits?

What would be a more meaningful stat would be what we have spent on poverty each year and compare that to the poverty rate.

"are they suddenly going to START working FOR the people instead of against them?"

Republicans won't have a chance for years and years.

danforth - are the dems going to stay out of our lives as much as possible or not?

i dissected this quite nicely at a post of mine earlier - lots of links and everything - and can look here. if the demo policies are so wonderful for the poverty problem, why are the most poverty-stricken areas of the country controlled by the democrats???

they like to keep the brother's down, heidiannej. but down just enough to keep them voting in the entitlement direction.

war on poverty which has so far cost $6T and done nothing to the poverty rate."


Stupid is as stupid does. The poverty rate has dropped precipitously.

#8 | Posted by Danforth at 2008


I wont ask for a link because I believe that you believe that and thats okay.....

but dont tell us that the war on poverty was a success..........I drive by some wards in houston that would have a different story

"I drive by some wards in houston that would have a different story"

What? There is still poverty?!? Quelle horror!

That's like saying cancer research is worthless because people still get cancer.

the thought of ANOTHER government agency messing in our livelihoods chills me to the bone.

#3 | Posted by nanc at 2008-10-15


and again I say.........a focus group after the dem convention bitched about how noone talked about fixing social security because the government had fucked it all up and this same group moments later began to clamor for THAT SAME GOVERNMENT to take over health care

I dont believe that when john adams stood in philly and talked for ONE HOUR on independence and then said it ALL OVER AGAIN for two late arrivals, that THIS is what he had in mind

(okay so that might not have much to do with the subject but I was just impressing all of you that I AM reading his bio by mccullouch)...........LOL

well I guess then the democrats have failed in all of their promises to those poor people then.....HUH>?????

tooshay, blt!

p.s. - last night at the debate, one of bho's last comments was (paraphrased) "our administration wants to grow the middle class."

okay.

to grow the middle class, one class must be brought down (i.e. upper middle class) and another must be brought up (i.e. lower class). how best might this be done?

1984 or 2009?

doublespeakungood.

thanks nanc

and yet they keep voting for them and of course the DEMS DONT WANT them off the poverty rolls......they might change how they vote........

Did anyone see the news today where Hawaii had to stop their government health care because people were leaving their employer provided insurance to get the cheaper gov insurance. Thereby bankrupting the system.

People will do the same thing under Obama's plan and we cannot afford it.

to grow the middle class, one class must be brought down (i.e. upper middle class) and another must be brought up (i.e. lower class). how best might this be done?

wrong think NANC (as usual)

The economy is NOT a zero sum game.

but don't listen to me (why start now?)

try a Harvard MBA

World economics are definitely NOT a zero-sum game. Were that truly the case, you'd still be sitting around your cave with your buddies Thak and Grunt, snacking on beetles and grubs. Clearly, the world economy is larger today than it was 25 years ago.


Let's return to our friends, Thak and Grunt. Our cavemen friends spend their days gathering and eating beetles and grubs. Then one day, Thak discovers that the blackberries on the bush outside their cave are plentiful and edible. Both Thak and Grunt are now better off. Their meals are tastier, and it takes less time for them to gather their daily food. Their simple economy has grown.

Man has done this many times throughout his history, from the discovery of agriculture, to the Industrial Revolution, to the electronic age. We broaden our horizons, and our entire economy grows.

Now let's look at something trickier. Let's say Thak discovers the blackberry bush, but keeps it a secret from Grunt (and Grunt is too dim-witted to figure out the myster). Does Grunt benefit?

First of all, it's pretty easy to see that Grunt can't be harmed. He can continue to gather exactly the same quantity of beetles and grubs as before.

Second, if we introduce the concept of trade, Grunt will certainly be better off. Perhaps Thak decides that eating nothing but blackberries is monotonous, and misses the crunch of beetle exoskeletons. He might trade some portion of his blueberries for some of Grunt's beetles. Thak wins.

But Grunt also wins. Grunt gets to benefit from Thak's blackberry discovery. And because trade is a voluntary transaction, by definition Grunt feels that he is better off swapping beetles for berries otherwise he wouldn't agree to the exchange.

So now we've seen that economics is not a zero-sum game, and that trade brings benefits to both parties. So why is it that there are so many bitter people in Ohio and Pennsylvania?

for that answer go to the webpage yerself

www.asktheharvardmba.com

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