they needed something to take the minds of people off immigration, so they developed the economic crisis. on the flipside - it appears illegals are returning to their home country as a result.

who knew? all we needed was a "depression" to get everybody where they belong!

These 2 gutless Candidates certainly wouldn't want to risk the "undocumented worker" vote.

I think the Bush economy will take care of the immigration problem all by itself. Just turn America into a third world country and voila....no one wants to immigrate here legally or illegally.

I think President Obama will try a new and novel approach to immigration....he'll actually enforce our laws and not be controlled by the US Chambers of Commerce.

... I don't think either candidate will lift a finger to enforce the laws already on our books, never mind new ones. Immigration isn't mentioned by McCain because his corporate buddies would hate the flow of illegals to stop, and it isn't mentioned by Obama because he's terrified of "losing the Hispanic vote".

Because Illegal immigrants are?

A. Potential voters for democrats.

B. Potential cheap labor for republicans.

C. All of the above.

I think President Obama will try a new and novel approach to immigration....he'll actually enforce our laws and not be controlled by the US Chambers of Commerce.

#3 | Posted by danni

What time is it there Danni? Way to early for a bong hit for sure. Obammy will try the same old tried and true approach taken by the rest of his party. Just like he will on most issues.

I think the Bush economy will take care of the immigration problem all by itself. Just turn America into a third world country and voila....no one wants to immigrate here legally or illegally.

I think President Obama will try a new and novel approach to immigration....he'll actually enforce our laws and not be controlled by the US Chambers of Commerce.

#3 | Posted by danni

Danni!!!

You're not paying attention. That's the intent! Obama is going to win and guess what? Nothing will change!!!

ELCID do you even understand my reference to the US Chambers of Commerce???

Obama's economic plans are not trickle down, illegal immigration (cheap labor) is a symptom of that economic policy. Obama's plans call for higher wages at the bottome to percolate up through the economy and illegal immigration is not compatible with that philosophy. Therefore he will have to deal with immigration issues in order to make his policies work.

"Nothing will change!!!"

You are so used to right wing government you are incapable of imaging anything better. Sad really.

I think President Obama will try a new and novel approach to immigration....he'll actually enforce our laws and not be controlled by the US Chambers of Commerce.

#3 | Posted by danni

yeah, ok. What's he going to do about all the "Sanctuary Cities?" Or do you even know what that is?

Therefore he will have to deal with immigration issues in order to make his policies work.

#8 | Posted by danni

Wow. Did the Messiah aprove this message, or are you taking a fortune telling class?

NEITHER side is going to do squat about Illegal Immigration because that is where their corporate pimp daddy's get their cheap labor from.

Larry

"all we needed was a "depression" to get everybody where they belong!

#1 | Posted by nanc "

Then why are you still here, instead of under a rock?

"they needed something to take the minds of people off immigration, so they developed the economic crisis."

Let me get this straight, the current worldwide economic collapse is a ploy, that is, people losing trillions of dollars not just in the US but worldwide, losing their homes, their retirements, their jobs, the world financial markets are literally on the brink of total collapse, banks are failing, etc., just to deflect the people away from illegal immigration?

Wow! How did you come up with that?

yeah, ok. What's he going to do about all the "Sanctuary Cities?"

You mean New York...under Giuliani
Massachussetts under Romney

Who said....""Illegal immigrants are just doing jobs Americans won't do???""

Who dared union workers to pick lettuce for $50 per hour????

"Obama's economic plans are not trickle down, illegal immigration (cheap labor) is a symptom of that economic policy. Obama's plans call for higher wages at the bottome to percolate up through the economy and illegal immigration is not compatible with that philosophy. Therefore he will have to deal with immigration issues in order to make his policies work."

#8 | Posted by danni

Hilarity ensues.

zot - sounds as good as any of the other conspeories!

last i looked, danni - massachussetts is NOT a city.

l.a., however...

"Wow. Did the Messiah aprove this message, or are you taking a fortune telling class?"

No, as in most things I analysed the situation for myself and used logic. For Barack Obama's economic plans to work, and for America's economy to work again wages have to rise. If illegal immigration is allowed to continue to drag down wages as it has for the past 8 years wages won't rise. However, I don't see Obama deporting millions, instead I think he will get a comprehensive immigration bill passed to make those workers legal and thus able to demand American wages. I also think he will use trade as a carrot to force Mexico to change its economic policies to enable Mexicans to earn a living in their own country.
Bush has spent 8 years trying to turn America into Mexico now Obama will try to force the fascist scum who run Mexico to deal with their own economic unfairness.

"You are so used to right wing government you are incapable of imaging anything better."

#9 | Posted by dann

Okay... I'll bite.

What is Obama going to do to change the status quo of the last 150 years?

Just because the US "appropriated" the Southwest from Mexico doesn't mean we don't want them up here anymore.

yeah, ok. What's he going to do about all the "Sanctuary Cities?"

You mean New York...under Giuliani
Massachussetts under Romney

Who said....""Illegal immigrants are just doing jobs Americans won't do???""

Who dared union workers to pick lettuce for $50 per hour????

#15 | Posted by danni

Actually, those have always been welfare magnets for decades and migrant workers have been working in this country for longer.

Denver, San Francisco?

Why haven't you mentioned the real sanctuary cities?

So, what is Obama going to do about this?

OH!, that's right, Obama is bringing Hope!

Danni,
Things are only going to get worse. We are paid too much in this country and there is nothing you can do about it. Wages are going down....

"We are paid too much in this country and there is nothing you can do about it. Wages are going down...."

According to those who profit from low wages. Tariffs will fix that PDQ. All of our competitors use them while we don't....that is just stupid.

It is going to be sort of funny watching American CEO's cry the blues about their factories overseas becoming unable to compete against factories here in the US due to protectionist tariffs. I hope they lose everything...the unAmerican scumbags who wave their flags but hate Americans.

"I also think he will use trade as a carrot to force Mexico to change its economic policies to enable Mexicans to earn a living in their own country."

#19 | Posted by danni

Weeeeell...

No.

Maybe Obama has a carrot, but Mexico has oil. Somewhere around 25% of the US crude imports. Which explains in part why the border has not been locked down.

Wages on the lower end go up. Ok no problem. Where do the majority of the work force workers sit... at the bottom. So we increase their wages. Now what does that do to the profit... Result it goes down. Profits go down, forecasts for share prices go down. In turn the value of the stock is reduced. Now, Since our society values companies by their stock value and future earning potential Whats the easiest way to quickly increase profit. HMM reduce the workforce. So yes Obama might being raising the income levels but what about the people that get laid off because of it.

Also, What is the crap that if you make $250,000 a year you are automatically the devil. What happened to the American Dream. Is it great until you reach $250,000 then you become crap... What is that all about. Look at the math. If I make 249,999 I pay nothing more but if I make $250,001 I pay a ton more in tax... There is somehting inherently wrong with that...

Not to mention the illegals in this country. Pack them ALL UP AND SEND THEM HOME!!!! then reduce the aid we give to those Countries by the amount we spent sending their citizens home to them. Sound pretty fair if you ask me...

Who said....""Illegal immigrants are just doing jobs Americans won't do???""

#15 | Posted by danni

What's worse than this? A President who thinks that Americans are currently underpaid at $12/hour to do housework? To pick up trash? To actually do the jobs that you can't get Americans to do?

Excuse me, but I don't think I should pay someone for MORE than what the job is worth!!!

You want more money? Make yourselves more valuable and stop getting the government to bash me over the head with this stupid guilt plan. IT'S NOT WORKING!!! I don't give a crap about your problems anymore. It's the same mantra over and over. You created this problem for yourself through self-loathing and talking yourself into it and you want me to get you out of it?

If EVERYONE in this country took care of their own families, then we all would be in much better shape and not standing on the roof in the middle of a flood.

Danni,
If Obama came out and said, "Take care of your family and the country will take care of you." Then I would begin to like him. But, I really can't ever picture him saying that.

I don't give a crap about your problems anymore.

Posted by Eddie

Imagine Eddie gets ill and can't work and his family just says fuck him. I imagine he would change his evil tone.

Eddie, that will never happen.. That would mean Americans would actually have to take responsibility for their actions...

We live in a society, thanks to the Libs, that fosters the "ITS NOT MY FAULT" mentality.

People need to take responsibility for their actions.. That will go a long way into fixing the ills of this country...

"Excuse me, but I don't think I should pay someone for MORE than what the job is worth!!!"

So vote for McBush. Unless wages rise our economy can't recover. If people don't have money to spend they can't buy anything and corporations can't stay in business. GM stock sells for less than $5.00 per hour, lowest price since 1950. Too many are like Eddie, more worried that someone might make a living and too stupid to realize that if they don't he won't either. Finally many of the wealthy are beginning to realize that their wealth is evaporating because of not in spite of their own selfish greed. They are 8.3 trillion poorer now because they were so successful in driving down the price of labor.

"People need to take responsibility for their actions...."

Fine, impeach George Bush, imprison Karl Rove, impeach Dick Cheney.

According to those who profit from low wages. Tariffs will fix that PDQ. All of our competitors use them while we don't....that is just stupid.
#22 | Posted by danni

Agreed. And we might see some of that 8-10 years from now (maybe longer). But America has been a consumer/throw away culture for decades; just a term in the Empire equation. But that era is over. The people who profited are moving on to the next exploitation and we'll be reduced to a 3rd world country, or maybe we can protect ourselves through Socialism, and become a country like Germany and maintain a higher standard of living, but castrate the hell out of our real productivity. It's depressing!

But, the US is far too large. I predict that the country breaks up into smaller entities, but under one North American Union.

DANNI, Do you know anything about the economy.

"Unless wages rise our economy can't recover"

What drugs are you on... People overspent their incomes. This is what has put us into this situation. They took home loans out that exceeded how much they made monthly, etc... Its not how much they make. The average income has increased with Cost of Living. Minimum wage maybe not; but I'm sorry, Paying someone to stock the grocery store shelves $12 an hour is not going to help the economy. especially when that grocery store has to increase the prices to pay for the UNSKILLED LABOR!!!!!

BRAVO DANNI, you have successfully won the argument you mentioned Bush... WAY TO GO.. You when the door prize...

Very pessimistic Eddie though I can't really fault your thinking, everything you say is possible. I hope Obama is the real thing because this may just be America's last chance. If he gets a strong enough majority and the economy continues to melt down he may be in a position to bring about the real changes which could bring our economy back and our living standard too. I think betting against the success of America is always a bad bet, especially when we are backed into a corner.

Too many are like Eddie, more worried that someone might make a living and too stupid to realize that if they don't he won't either.
#28 | Posted by danni

Danni,

I'm stupid because you don't understand the way our economy works? There is infation because the Federal Reserve keeps expanding the money supply. That's coming to an end.

Danni, Don't get me wrong. I hire people based on their excellent potential, not because they need a job. I've done that plenty of times in the past and it never works. I reward excellence with abundance because greed harms as well. All I'm telling you is that I have lived and I have learned. There is a good middle ground between compassion and greed that must be maintained at all times.

Right now, our country is too compassionate. We reward mediocrity. We are going to see a trend in the other direction all too soon or we will die.

"Right now, our country is too compassionate."

Hilarious. We have millions without health care, unnecessary wars, very lopsided distribution of wealth, etc. Our society worked fine until Ronnie Raygun introduced supply side economics and ruined our economy which has been in decline since.

"We reward mediocrity."
Yes we have but not in the work force, in the management of our corporations, in government, etc.
The American worker has increased productivity steadily through these years of class war.

Also, What is the crap that if you make $250,000 a year you are automatically the devil. What happened to the American Dream. Is it great until you reach $250,000 then you become crap... What is that all about. Look at the math. If I make 249,999 I pay nothing more but if I make $250,001 I pay a ton more in tax.

I'm in no way a tax expert but I don't think that's how tax brackets work. If in the scenario you describe, the cut off was $250k, you'd only pay the higher tax rate on $1, and the lower tax rate on the other $250k. The difference in actual taxes between somebody who made $249,999 and $250,001 would probably be exactly the same due to rounding.

I may be in the minority but over the course of my professional career, where my wages have tripled since finishing grad school, the actual percentage of my income paid in income taxes has gone down significantly. While I used to just file a 1040EZ and take a standard deduction (as I had nothing to deduct), between mortgage interest, my home office, unreimbursed business expenses, and a whole slew of other deductions, my entire life is deductible.

KatieBerry you are correct.. My point is simply that why does Obama put a cap on the American dream at $250,000.

I probably didn't word it as well as I should have...

"Look at the math. If I make 249,999 I pay nothing more but if I make $250,001 I pay a ton more in tax... There is somehting inherently wrong with that..."

The "inherently wrong" thing is the guy in your mirror. The difference between taxes on those two incomes is about seventy cents.

Obama is the real thing because this may just be America's last chance. If he gets a strong enough majority and the economy continues to melt down he may be in a position to bring about the real changes which could bring our economy back and our living standard too. I think betting against the success of America is always a bad bet, especially when we are backed into a corner.

#33 | Posted by danni

Obama is the right guy, but he's going with the wrong Party.

If Obama gets in there and mimics JFK, then we have a chance. That's the kind of leadership we need. Not a nationwide health care. Just shut up about health care, Obama, it's not going to happen that way. (McCains plan is no good either).

But, if Obama get's in there and starts getting everyone thinking about building the country back up rather than focusing on how bad things are for them, then we have a chance.

Obama is focused on help people out of their dire situations, when all it is, in reality, is that they are in a rut. Just bored. Not going anywhere.

Did you know, we are much better off now than we were in the 60's? We got paid more in the 90s, but that was because we enjoyed the enormous amount of cash being injected into the economy through the Federal Reserve printing money out of nothing.

If we can maintain our standard of living and fix the things that are broken (Health Care System, Staying in a job for more than 2 years, paying down enourmous personal debt, etc), then I think we can become less impotent as a nation.

We have millions without health care, unnecessary wars, very lopsided distribution of wealth, etc.

Why is this DANNI, Seriously. Could it be that because of welfare we have empowered a group of people to not work. to make it more profitable to them to stay home and pop out kids...

Could it be because rather than earn their way and better themselves people are content with their lives as is... No drive, desire, or vision to pull themselves out of their situation.

There is always the military for our youth to get started.

Student loans for those that want to go to school.

Peace Corp groups to better themselves.

Our youth have options to pull themselves out of bad situations. They need to take responsibility and do what it takes to make themselves better instead of relying on the government to do it for them...

Hilarious. We have millions without health care, unnecessary wars, very lopsided distribution of wealth, etc. Our society worked fine until Ronnie Raygun introduced supply side economics and ruined our economy which has been in decline since.

"We reward mediocrity."
Yes we have but not in the work force, in the management of our corporations, in government, etc.
The American worker has increased productivity steadily through these years of class war.

#35 | Posted by danni

This is the trend and you'd better get used to it. Obama can't do anything about this, but pretend he's fighting it. Corporations will continue to move jobs overseas.

The simple fact is that we need to begin to reward excellence again or we'll all be "Standing on the Roof" in the middle of a flood.

Remove tax credits to offshore jobs and maybe less jobs would be offshored. What a concept!

"The simple fact is that we need to begin to reward excellence again or we'll all be "Standing on the Roof" in the middle of a flood."

We are...we are going to elect Barack Obama and get rid of the supply side lunatics like y'all.

"There is always the military for our youth to get started. "

This is a good idea only when we reduce the military to 1/3 it's size, bring them all home and close the 700+ bases around the world.

"Student loans for those that want to go to school."

This is welfare (reduce the cost of college)
But a better idea is to make available the trade schooling from age 13, like they do in the rest of the world.

"Peace Corp groups to better themselves."
This is always a legitimate way, but not for everyone.

"Our youth have options to pull themselves out of bad situations. They need to take responsibility and do what it takes to make themselves better instead of relying on the government to do it for them..."

Our youth are handed everything and we celebrate their mediocrity!!!

We are...we are going to elect Barack Obama and get rid of the supply side lunatics like y'all.

#43 | Posted by danni

Like me? right. What did I say that made you lump me in with that?

We are...we are going to elect Barack Obama and get rid of the supply side lunatics like y'all.

#43 | Posted by danni

Danni,

This is too funny. You are not cheering for the local High School Team.

So, what has he said (because he hasn't done anything) that makes believe that he will be excellent (because right now he's not)

I just need to be able to see what you see.

Just one thing that's he's said.

Eddie, I have to disagree, Fed Loans are not welfare. they must be paid back and they offer people a way to pay for school...

We need to increase the size of our military not decrease it. My opinion is that all youth should have to serve 2years in this country. let them know exactly what rights they do have and what it means to fight for those rights.

Eddie, he isnt BUSH to the DEms and the libs that makes him the messiah... he could be the most corrupt individual (See Ayers), but to those groups because he is not BUSH he walks on water...

I think the Bush economy will take care of the immigration problem all by itself. Just turn America into a third world country and voila....no one wants to immigrate here legally or illegally.

#3 | Posted by danni

Carter and Clinton were the men that pushed the lending problem we have now.

Sniper How dare you bring up facts!!!!

"Carter and Clinton were the men that pushed the lending problem we have now."

Repeat the talking point but on the Front Page sits the McClatchy debunk of it. Don't you feel smart.

Eddie, I have to disagree, Fed Loans are not welfare. they must be paid back and they offer people a way to pay for school...

#47 | Posted by armyof1

The fed gov is subsidizing/guaranteeing the loan. To anyone who has makes below a certain amount. That's welfare.

No way either candidate can touch this one. If you want to do something meaningful about illegal immigration, you alienate a lot of minority votes. If you court the minority vote by saying you're soft on illegals, you alienate the rest of America. Lose-lose, is what it is.

However, I do find myself wishing for the day when someone would take on the job of curbing illegal immigration. One simple rule change would work wonders - if you are found here illegally, you are deported, your native country gets billed for the deportation, and you are forever ineligible for legal immigration to this country, or any kind of entry visa. If they'd do that, and eliminate that "anchor baby" nonsense, we'd get a handle on the situation pretty quickly.

Not really, Yea the government guarantees the loan but the person still is responsible for paying the loan.

Not unlike the VA loans that are vets receive. The government guarantees the loans but the Veteran is still responsible for the debt. I wouldn't call that loan welfare...

We need to increase the size of our military not decrease it. My opinion is that all youth should have to serve 2years in this country. let them know exactly what rights they do have and what it means to fight for those rights.

#47 | Posted by armyof1

Actually, if we stop messing in other peoples business we can decrease the military to 1/3 its size pull back (close foreign bases) and have a much much better "homeland" defense than we do now.

I'm sitting on the fence with this 2-year of service thing. Sometimes I think it's a good idea because the country and the individual both benefit from it, but then making it mandatory will never sit well.

Can you imagine a President as bold as Bush again (I can). It's a volunteer army now, can you imagine the problems with that plan?

If they'd do that, and eliminate that "anchor baby" nonsense, we'd get a handle on the situation pretty quickly.

#53 | Posted by MaryTylerWhore

Looking to redefine what constitutes native born citizenship, MighTWhite?

"It's a volunteer army now, can you imagine the problems with that plan?"

Sure can, we would not now be in Iraq. All volunteer army is the worst thing possible, it gives the president too much power without the inhibiting force of influential wealthy folks objecting to their kids being used as cannon fodder.

"One simple rule change would work wonders - "

That change should be that those who employ them are put in jail. No jobs here, no illegal immigrants here.

Eddie the problem with pulling our troops from around the world is the deterrent that it provides right now.

I agree we should pick and choose our battles a little wiser with regards to the support we give.

in order to provide a defense for our country here at home we need to have a presence abroad though...

The 2yr service would never be upheld. The ACLU would see to that. Why should anyone have to fight for their country...

All volunteer army is the worst thing possible, it gives the president too much power without the inhibiting force of influential wealthy folks objecting to their kids being used as cannon fodder.

#57 | Posted by danni

I can't believe I just read that. Good for you, Danni.

Danni, I actually agree with you on this. To a certain extent. Not sure they should be put into Jail, the employers that is, but they should have to pay massive fines for hiring illegal workers...

The workers should not be put in jail either. I actually sympathize with them they are trying to better themselves and provide for their families. they should be booked and logged by INS and deported though.

DANNI and HC

Kids today NEED to be in the military to learn some respect and discipline. And for the reason DANNI gave.

We are paid too much in this country and there is nothing you can do about it. Wages are going down

Our wages are relatively high because foreign manufacturers get to import their goods into the US with little or no tariffs. Tariffs can and should be used to level the playing field.

The fed gov is subsidizing/guaranteeing the loan. To anyone who has makes below a certain amount. That's welfare.

#52 | Posted by Eddie

EDDIE, in your whole life you've never heard of FHA loans? Never heard of VA loans?

Tariffs can and should be used to level the playing field.

#63 | Posted by FedUpWithPols

LOL... and watch the foreign loans dry up.

LOL... and watch the foreign loans dry up.

#65 | Posted by Hagbard_Celine

I prefer to see foreign loans dry up than to see our manufacturing base deteriorate any further. With out a robust manufacturing base, the severe economic problems that we face today will be thought of as the "good old days".

I prefer to see foreign loans dry up than to see our manufacturing base deteriorate any further. With out a robust manufacturing base, the severe economic problems that we face today will be thought of as the "good old days".

#66 | Posted by FedUpWithPols

I was being facetious but I think that we forgo the foreign loans and the manufacturing loss speeds up as a result.

#23 | Posted by ZOT
"but Mexico has oil. Somewhere around 25% of the US crude imports. Which explains in part why the border has not been locked down"

Yeah, Mexico has oil, and is the third largest supplier of imported crude, but Mexican oil only represents 12-14.5% of total US oil imports. Not to mention that Mexican oil represents only @9.7% of total US usage.

Couple that with oil being transported by ship, not by land, let alone by humans crossing the border, how does that explain the border not being locked down? The corporate need for cheap labor explains it much better.

#25 | Posted by Eddie
"Americans are currently underpaid at $12/hour"

I remember a couple of years ago thinking that $12/hour would be a livable wage. Then I did my budget on a spreadsheet. Shock! The amount I needed to make for a barebones life was more per year than I had ever made.

How do Mexicans live in the US AND send money home? Oh yeah! By living massed together in housing beyond what the law allows. Not exactly the American Dream. Not what Our zoning and laws say we want for our communities.

"I don't think I should pay someone for MORE than what the job is worth!!!"

Kinda a subjective subject. Hell, I have been not paid for work I have performed.

Make yourself more valuable? What exacly does that mean?

If you tear into this post, please state what you do that makes "you" valuable.

"my job as a criminal psychiatrist"

Are you doing serious time for a felony conviction or some light time for a misdemeanor?

The illegals will get a change to turn legal.

They tend to vote 'Democrat' --- but Republicans make up by raising unaborted babies into conservatives.

"I think President Obama will try a new and novel approach to immigration....he'll actually enforce our laws"

I think I just peed myself from laughing. You must be taking anti-psychotic meds if you think he will enforce the standing Immigration laws. Ya right. He fought the deportation of THOUSANDS of illegal aliens in Illinois for chists sake. The illegal alien in the church in chicago ring any bells? Or how about his support of the state of Illinois underwriting THOUSANDS of shakey homeloans for illegal aliens WITH NO COLLATERAL!!!???

Obama is all for racism as long as its the "right" racism. Hell he spoke at confrence for LA RAZA people. For those who dont know La Raza is the Latino version of the KKK and Neo-Nazi's all rolled up into a prickly, angry, hate-filled orginazation. Hell the phrase La Raza translates directly to " THE RACE" for christs sake.

Obama needs the immigrants and illegals...they are 'FAM-I-LY"...!!!

Just banother unpopular Government policy hurting citizens.

Why talk about it.

0bama and McCain don't want to talk about illegals because doing so would deviate from their shared campaign strategy of promising "hope", "change", "reaching across the aisle" and whatever other empty catchphrases they're using today in lieu of having a real plan to fix what ails the U.S. federal government and economy. Why say anything substantial when they can get away with building "castles in the sky" that the American voters seem to be more than willing to buy into much like all the "pigs-in-a-poke" they've happily bought into the last quarter of a century?

Don't waste your precious vote on do-nothings like 0bama or McCain, vote for real change vote for third party candidate.

Well, immigration is going just how these obama and mccain political wonders want it to be.

All ILLEGAL ALIENS no matter what their skill level or where they come from should be deported. We spend BILLIONS to provide an education and health care to people who don't belong here. We need to use that money on our own citizens.