Weeeeeee, just think how great it would have been if Bush let his wall street donors get his hand on our social security funds.

Weeeeeee...

Newsworthy

Thanks Alan Greenspan.

A trillion.

That's about the number of stars in THE WHOLE FUCKING UNIVERSE!!!!!

There are 10^11 stars in the galaxy. That used to be a huge number. But it's only a hundred billion. It's less than the national deficit! We used to call them astronomical numbers. Now we should call them economical numbers.

Richard Feynman

OK there are, maybe, 500 billion galazies.

But SHIT!

That's about the number of stars in THE WHOLE FUCKING UNIVERSE!!!!!
~Zat

Carl Sagon only used Billions & Billions and he Was talking about Stars!

10^11 * 5*10^11 = 10^22, but we're getting there!

Avogadro's number here we come!

5*10^22 I should say.

"Carl Sagon only used Billions & Billions"

"I never said it."
-Carl Sagan

So if there are Avogadro's number (6.02*10^23) of stars in the universe, is that a mole?

galazies => galaxies

And I ain't talking Fords.

Zatoichi-
It would be, but why would that be number of stars in the universe?

For our provincial mathematical convenience? A bit panglossian for so early in the day, don't you think?

" A bit panglossian for so early in the day, don't you think?"

Posted by BetelG

Only if your mind is stuck in Voltaire's era.

Anything that forces Americans to stay in the workforce longer than they planned is, overall, a good thing. When FDR set up 65 as the age of eligibility of Social Security, it was actually higher than the average mortality. No reason people can't work into their early seventies. If you want to retire early, go ahead. But don't raise taxes on everyone else just so you can go and sit on your ass for the next 30 years.

No reason people can't work into their early seventies. Wright-is-Wrong

After all, everyone has a job where they can sit on their ass and pontificate all day long.

All the while failing to acknowledge that SS is basically an insurance program - an annuity. We have a cap on SS contributions that undermines the intended social responsibility we as Americans share, and then Congress uses the contributions to give tax breaks to special interest groups - like Day Traders who are taxed on capital gains and therefore avoid SS contributions. That, in fact, is a means of income distribution by caveat that
Wrighties fail to acknowledge.

It's one thing for people to stay active, but how many 70+ bricklayers can make a living in a market driven economy? Even the unions can't protect older workers. Maybe we should start loading them on icebergs while we still have icebergs. Time's ah wastin'.

SS is basically an insurance program that is broke. And if you need a union to protect your job, it's time to move to the Sun Belt, which is where most retirees wind up anyhow.

Party on. But when the same government who's promised that Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac can't possibly fail is responsible for your retirement funding, that can't be good.

And if you need a union to protect your job...

Age discrimination is a endemic fact, and if you have not experienced it you will.

Of course we should privatize SS. Then we could all work to the very end - dig our own graves, and not just in the metaphorical sense. The cemeteries could rent shovels! Capitalism Rules.

You come out of high school at the age of 18. You have 47 years to figure out your 65 and over years.

So, should we take care of those fools who didn't prepare for 47 years?

I went to my class reunion from high school. So many are in debt - credit card debt. It's playtime for at least another 10 years until their age catches up on them and they realize they have squandered their existence and their money.

I control my retirement money. Some in risk, some is not. Eggs in one basket. Too many are breaking and scrambling their eggs.

Grasshopper and the ant. In the PC-world, you take from the ant, feed the grasshopper, and the ant dies from losing everything they earned.

We have a cap on SS contributions that undermines the intended social responsibility we as Americans share,

We have an extremely HIGH cap on those contributions. It is a perfectly reasonable argument to cap those contributions as the benefits are capped as well. The system is already a "have" paying for "have nots". We don't need to skew it further in that direction.

I have paid in the max for 10 years now. I probably will for the rest of my working life. It is a lot of money (nearly $13,500 a year right now) and they are adjusting that cap up every year.

EB

Since the cap on paying Social Security taxes is $90,000, how is it you're paying $13,500?

The current rate is 15.5%, right? Your numbers don't add up.

I take that back. That is exactly 15%

My bad.

"Since the cap on paying Social Security taxes is $90,000, how is it you're paying $13,500?"

AU,

The cap is $102,000 on SS taxes, at 12.4%, for a total of $12,685. Medicare has no wage cap and is taxed at 2.9%.

The current total rate is 15.3%

I was including medicare in my figure.

Actually the cap broke $100,000. It's a load if you're self-employed but I wonder how any small business person would support a cap that lowers the effective tax rate of the CEO's who have shipped jobs overseas and rewarded themselves with exit packages in the millions. Myopia I guess - as in not being able to see past your nose.

EB

I understand

DANFORTH

Ty for taking the time to post that. When did the cap go up on SS? I only write a check to the IRS in the amount my accountant says I owe (sheepish grin)

EB

I have to assume you're self employed? If you had an employer you wouldn't be carrying the entire burden. I only ask because I typically never have much W-4 income annually compared to the rest of my income, and so I pay the whole tab with no employer contributions (with the exception of a small percentage of W-4 income)

I'm am not self employed but I consider what my employer sends in as my expense as it is figured in my total compensation package. It counts as far as I'm concerned as it goes to the govt either way.

I have watched the cap go up from the low $60s to over $100K in a short period of time.

"Markets do go up and down, and 401(k) participants must try to remember to think long-term," he said.

When did the cap go up on SS? I only write a check to the IRS in the amount my accountant says I owe (sheepish grin)

#26 | Posted by AMERICANUNITY

It is revalued every year based on cost of living.

"When did the cap go up on SS?"

January 1, 2008. It'll go up again about three weeks before Obama is inaugurated.

It's tied to wages somehow isn't it???

"Retirement Savings Drop $2 Trillion in 15 Months"

YEAH!

Who Cares ---- this is Boooooring!

Give me some Fire and Brimstone talk like telling people important things like the fact they are all going to hell if they don't vote for mcshame!

Sincerely

The increasingly transparent and irrelevant "right"

Weeeeeee, just think how great it would have been if Bush let his wall street donors get his hand on our social security funds.

-----------

Pleeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeaze try to remember this in 5 or 10 years when the same corporate cocksuckers try again... If only...........

You shouldn't worry too much about the losses in 401Ks because with the influx of dollars into the banks we will be inflating the currency and making dollars worth less. So you may be losing many dollars but fortunately they aren't worth anything.

Look at it this way - the people who are ready to retire who saw losses in their 401(k) will still be able to collect social security. The people who are retiring in 20 years will probably see gains in their 401(k) when the market improves but won't collect a nickel in social security. Maybe it'll even out?

It's tied to wages somehow isn't it???

#32 | Posted by danni

Well, since wages have gone down then the cap should be reduced then shouldn't it?

but at some point it seems that the dow was tied to something unreal. Derivatives? I dunno, but people investing in unreal stuff, was this a result of people putting their retirement savings in 401k? i dunno, more money in the system? I dunno.

You appear to be distinguishing between a 401-K and the DOW.

correct or not?

in the last few weeks we have had

$630 Billion Spending Bill
$840 Billion Bailout
$900 Billion Announced by Treasury to buy commercial credit
$600 Billion in bailouts prior to Bailout Bill

Over $3Trillion encumbered by the US Govt.

Intro
What shall we do with a drunken sailor, (3)
Early in the morning?
Chorus
Hooray/Weyhey/Heave-ho and up she rises, (3)
Early in the morning!
Verses
Stick him in a bag and beat him senseless, (3)
Early in the morning!
Put him in the longboat till he's sober, (3)
Early in the morning!
Cut off his Cock with a rusty razor, (3)
Early in the morning!
Take him, shake him and try an' wake him, (3)
Early in the morning!
Put him in the brig until he's sober, (3)
Early in the morning!
Slap him around and call him Suzie, (3)
Early in the morning!
Put him in bed/the brig/the hold with the captain's daughter, (3)[1]
Early in the morning!
You haven't seen the captain's daughter, (3)
Early in the morning!
Keelhaul the man until he's sober, (3)
Early in the morning!
Put 'im in the crow's nest and watch him fall down, (3)
Early in the morning!
Put 'im in a leaky boat an' make 'im bail 'er, (3)
Early in the morning!
Put him in the bilge and make him drink it, (3x)
Early in the morning!
Pull out the plug and wet him all over, (3)
Early in the morning!
Give 'im the hair of the dog that bit him, (3)
Early in the morning!
Put him in the scuppers with a hosepipe on him, (3)
Early in the morning!
Put 'im in the back of the paddywagon, (3)
Early in the morning!
Take 'im and shake 'im and try an' wake 'im, (3)
Early in the morning!
Give 'im a dose of salt and water, (3)
Early in the morning!
Give 'im a taste of the bosun's rope-end, (3)
Early in the morning!
Stick on 'is back a mustard plaster, (3)
Early in the morning!
Soak 'im in oil till he sprouts a flipper, (3)
Early in the morning!
Put 'im in charge of an Exxon tanker, (3)
Early in the morning!
Heave him by the leg in a running bowline, (3)
Early in the morning!
Tie him to the taffrail when she's yardarm under, (3)
Early in the morning!
Keelhaul him, keelhaul him, (3)
Early in the morning!
Shave his belly with a rusty razor, (3)
Early in the morning!
Hold 'im down an' lick his balls, (3)
Early in the morning!
Set him polishing up the brasswork, (3)
Early in the morning!
'Round with the rum and scotch and whiskey, (3)
Early in the morning!
Go to the market and buy some apples, (3x)
Early in the morning!

You appear to be distinguishing between a 401-K and the DOW.

correct or not?

#39 | Posted by eberly

the reason I mentioned 401K there was the 401K law was passed in 1976, and perhaps by the mid 80's more and more money was flowing into the stock market driving up prices, looking for places to go, new "unreal" products were developed to invest in.

"in the last few weeks we have had
$630 Billion Spending Bill
$840 Billion Bailout
$900 Billion Announced by Treasury to buy commercial credit
$600 Billion in bailouts prior to Bailout Bill"

Don't forget a .5% decrease in the federal funds rate (now down to a miniscule 1.5%), which is just as inflationary as printing new money.

Justice Oliver Wendell Holmes: "I like paying taxes. With them I buy civilization."

Don't forget a .5% decrease in the federal funds rate (now down to a miniscule 1.5%), which is just as inflationary as printing new money

isnt inflation part of the perfect depression storm?

"but at some point it seems that the dow was tied to something unreal."

We cut capital gains taxes so that there was no real incentive to invest in factories or other job creating businesses. Investors could make good profits in the stock market and pay half as much tax as we don on our labor. We need to reverse this. We need to make tax breaks for job creation and let stock market profits, real estate profits, etc. be taxed at the same rate as any other income.
Society does not necessarily benefit by profits made on stocks or real estate but it does when someone builds a factory and hires employees.

""in the last few weeks we have had
$630 Billion Spending Bill
$840 Billion Bailout
$900 Billion Announced by Treasury to buy commercial credit
$600 Billion"

Average homeowner lost $80,000 equity when bubble burst.
Wild guess about number of mortgages effected 50 million.
50 million x $80,000 = 4 trillion lost equity.

We cut capital gains taxes so that there was no real incentive to invest in factories or other job creating businesses.

My incentive for investing back into my business is based on corporate income taxes and any tax incentives the state or county has out there to invest into people or machinery etc.... You can't say the low capital gains taxes stopped people from investing into factories or hiring people. Someone might sell some realestate or stock they otherwise might hold onto because the tax is less but as a business owner I want to reduce income taxes by hiring and building. capital gains taxes isn't the same thing.

Society does not necessarily benefit by profits made on stocks or real estate but it does when someone builds a factory and hires employees.

We agree for once.

WTF are you guys talking about?

loss in equity, ie money from people as a result of bursting bubble.

danni pointed out that the average loss in equity is $80K, I pointed out that there are 102,000,000 homeowners in the country

Average homeowner lost $80,000 equity when bubble burst.

bullshit

this is not the time to extend your life span with expensive medical treatments or cures for cancer. what good is living a long life if you have no money to enjoy it, no money for food, no shelter for a home, no strength to work.... by all means, dont quit smoking because that may extend your life 10-20 years, you dont want that now!

danni pointed out that the average loss in equity is $80K,

so what if danni said it.

"closer to $8 trillion"

I would go along with that, I was just making a sort of wild guess about the number of homes with mortgages.

I would go along with that, I was just making a sort of wild guess about the number of homes with mortgages.

#54 | Posted by danni

Although Eberly seems to have some inability to ask outright, he seems to be aking you to prove that the average home has lost $80,000 of equity.

asking

that is how I ask questions here in drudge world.

danni knows that and she can't prove it obviously.

"Although Eberly seems to have some inability to ask outright, he seems to be aking you to prove that the average home has lost $80,000 of equity."

I can't research it right now because I'm at work. I read that figure somewhere, I'll find it but not right now. For the sake of argument then forget that number and just plug in whatever number you feel comfortable with, I don't think anyone will deny that home values have fallen significantly. My condo has lost over $60,000 already and it's still falling. My neighbors who paid much more than me have lost far more than that already, some up to $100,000+. Those losses are what is creating the crisis, the "colateral" for mortgages is the home they are for, now millions are upside down and the banks have too little collateral.

Danni,

what is your condo worth?

I don't think anyone will deny that home values have fallen significantly

depends on where you are. If you are in Florida (for instance) then it will be significant.

where do you live?

My condo has lost over $60,000 already and it's still falling.

Your condo has lost nothing until you sell it. Sorry you overpaid - bad decision on your part. Next time wait until the real estate market is not on steroids to buy.

The losses are unrealized DANNI. Yes you may have a mortgage for x amount of dollars over the "market" value of the home now, but the payment is no different from when you bought the home. You must wait it out until prices rise normally.

I live in Fort Lauderdale and my condo is probably worth 90-100K now. I paid 150K. My neighbors with identical units paid $225K. I saw the bubble bursting and offered a much lower amount but I still paid way too much.

I got my statement today and I appears I lost about 20%. But I am a young turk so I won't panick.

ELCID you miss my point. I'm not complaining, I'm just saying that those losses in value are what is causing the crisis. When people get foreclosed there is not enough value in the properties to cover the loans. People are walking away from properties because the value has fallen so low that they can't refinance into fixed rate loans because they don't have the value to support the new loans.
The fall in values is the basis for the mortgage crisis. If the properties were still worth what they were two years ago, the foreclosures wouldn't be a problem because the properties would sell for enough to cover the loans but now they don't and the banks are left holding the bag.

I am sure that if I long in to my account today it will be worse since those numbers are from the end of the quarter, last week.

As I remember the story, the ants took in the grasshopper and fed him while he fiddled for their entertainment, sounds like a plan to me.
I suppose in your world it's better that the grasshopper die while the ants keep a surplus?

i've lost around 20% since the beginning of the year.

My fear is that the market will crash and take decades to recover with prices not correspondingly crashing, thus not being able to afford to retire.

My fear is that the economy will tank, massive layoffs (including me), we lose homes, savings, etc.

$1 trillion for Iraq (so far).

$1 trillion for this bailout (so far).

Doubling of the National debt to $10 trillion.

The Bush Crime Family doesn't like Social Security or Medicare, or public schools or roads.........

Since Prescott failed to kill or depose Rossevelt in his coup planned with the likes of JP Morgan and since Shrub failed to privatize Social Security, then a back door way to achieve these goals is to bankrupt the country.

Just imagine how much Wall Street Crooks would have pocketed if Shrub had succeeded in privatizing Social Security.

There's a sucker born every minute.

You know when it will be a bad sign? It will be a bad sign when illegals start going back and when they don't try to cross the border.

Where is Ray when we need him?

Prescot wanted to mount a coup against FDR?! Wow, I've never heard of this one before.

2586,

there's a book in European Bookstores and a clip on YouTube about this. Can't get the book in this country, but good ol' YouTube has one historian's detailed testimony.

Thanks Nutcase, I will have to look it up.

I'm glad I know just enough about the markets to be dangerous with it, and I'm aware of that.....so I stay away..

I'll stick with Real Estate.....Apartment Complexes in emerging markets are still, by far, one of the best investments to be made.

Singularly Marx has predicted the continual, worsening crises within the economic system. In every boom time the right (pretty much covers both political parties in the US and other esp. 'western democracies') appear to forget all about crises, implying that this state of affairs is the norm in a capitalist world. When reminded otherwise they reply in terms of whiners or loooosers.

And when each (worsening) meltdown occurs they have a different reason to blame it on. The this-bubble, or that-bubble.

Marx gave the main reason as the continual cheapening of commodities needed to make (the same) profit. About 150 years ago more than 50 skilled detail workmen were needed to make a friggin' needle. Now the things are spit out by machines (er probably).
Probably back then, a good profit could be made producing a few needles a day. Today they might make thousands, but the (adjusted) profit may not be so different than back then. Why not thousands of times greater profit?
An' its not just needles. Its every commodity, to some degree or other.

If Marx was correct then this can't be fixed, which means your survival depends on finding a working alternative. Fascism doesn't count cos' it is capitalist which only leaves one thing.
Repeat after me-
'Better Red Than Dead ...'

Bettered-
You offer an amusing choice between two extremes. Feel better now?

Yeah, but why would we make needles anyways when all the sewing's done in China? I don't get it? In fact the needles are made in China now.

You need to put this argument in terms of we actually manufacture like hamburgers and fries . . . and maybe super size it . . . like two trillion served.

I've been in cash since Aug of 2007. Don't trust Liberals, they killed this economy. I'm up 100% in 5 years. Dow was rocking. Lib's killed it.

"Prescot wanted to mount a coup against FDR?! Wow, I've never heard of this one before."

You need to learn some history then. That is common knowledge.

"BBC Radio - The Whitehouse Coup - Prescott Bush led Nazi Coup Attempt in 1933 (Video)
2008 09 28

From: youtube.com

Document uncovers details of a planned coup in the USA in 1933 by right-wing American businessmen. The coup was aimed at toppling President Franklin D Roosevelt with the help of half-a-million war veterans. The plotters, who were alleged to involve some of the most famous families in America, (owners of Heinz, Birds Eye, Goodtea, Maxwell Hse & George Bush's Grandfather, Prescott) believed that their country should adopt the policies of Hitler and Mussolini to beat the great depression. Mike Thomson investigates why so little is known about this biggest ever peacetime threat to American democracy."

Now is the ideal time to nationalize the whole of the economy.

Let's begin by confiscating the 401K's of workers and replacing them government-insured bonds. This will simulatenously keep Social Security solvent while giving workers some insurance that their retirement savings won't be destroyed. At the same time, we can redistribute wealth from the rich, who have hoarded money in tax-free shelters (thereby hiding it from proper taxation), and diverting those funds into the retirement accounts of those who have little or no savings.

The next step needs to be a nationalizing of the banking system. Every bank rescue and bailout should be accompanied by the nationalizing of that bank's assets. The same should apply to any corporation that needs bailed out, regardless of industry.

The final step will be the nationalization of the health care system. For-profit hospitals need to be eradicated and replaced with government-managed facilities.

2586,

there's a book in European Bookstores and a clip on YouTube about this. Can't get the book in this country, but good ol' YouTube has one historian's detailed testimony.

#72 | Posted by nutcase

Nutcase, is this the book you are referring to?

"For-profit hospitals need to be eradicated and replaced with government-managed facilities."

Yes, like Walter Reed!

""Prescot wanted to mount a coup against FDR?! Wow, I've never heard of this one before."

You need to learn some history then. That is common knowledge."

Yes thanks, I was listening last night to the BBC audio I linked above and the qestioned posed at the end of the show was unsettling: "Would the American publica have tolerated a dictator in the White House?" There was speculation that given the horrible economic conditions, some people might have gone along if they believed the economy could be revived with such a system of government. People are too quick to trade freedom for security (including economic security). Hunger makes for radical politics I guess.

"Hunger makes for radical politics I guess."

Or it can force people to stop voting for those who have destroyed the economy out of their own greed for money and power. Hopefully our military will not support any attempted coup or attempt to disregard a legal election.

What are the odds that Bush will cancel the election because it's a "national emergency"? We've always wondered what would happen if terrorists attacked just before the end of the Bush term. But what if the current economic meltdown was engineered and timed by the Bush Administration so that they could stay in power? I hadn't really considered this before, but do you think it's possible? W has said that stability is the goal; what could be more "status quo" than Bush himself in the Oval Office for life?

"What are the odds that Bush will cancel the election because it's a "national emergency"?"

I used to worry about that but lately watching Bush on TV he looks like he can't wait to leave. More likely is somehow Darth Vader gets his hands on the reigns and then refuses to let go.

"Hunger makes for radical politics I guess."

Or it can force people to stop voting for those who have destroyed the economy out of their own greed for money and power. Hopefully our military will not support any attempted coup or attempt to disregard a legal election.

#84 | Posted by danni

With your logic, Barney Frank is OUT!

"Retirement Savings Drop $2 Trillion in 15 Months"

IT'S NOT MY FAULT!!!!

-- Barney Frank

After the debacle they created on Wall Street I am amazed that Republicans still have the gall to attack Social Security the one gov't program that works and the sole support for millions of retired Americans.

Hey, Republicans, what have your market returns been for the past year?

(crickets)

Hey, Republicans, what have your market returns been for the past year?

oooh oooh I know

-39%

-39%

Mine is better but I am pretty conservative. I moved a lot of stuff out of the market and placed it into my life insurance policy which is paying 5.35%.