Drudge Retort: Red Meat for Yellow Dogs

A team of scientists recently announced that they have found a bowl, dating to between the late 2nd century B.C. and the early 1st century A.D., that is engraved with what they believe could be the world's first known reference to Christ. The bowl was discovered during excavation of underwater ruins of Alexandria.

Liberal Blog Advertising Network

Menu

Subscriptions

Author Info

TrueBlue

MORE STORIES

Special Features

Links

Comments

Admin's note: Participants in the discussion of this weblog entry should note the site's moderation policy.

If the word "Christ" refers to the Biblical Jesus Christ, as is speculated, then the discovery may provide evidence that Christianity and paganism at times intertwined in the ancient world.

##############################
###############

Well, who doesn't know that Christianity and Paganism intertwined.

The early christians went to the pagan festivals to prosyletize because that was the only time that everyone was all in one place. Some of the books of the bible were written specifically against pagans.

the christmas and easter holidays were stolen directly from the pagans. Christmas was the festival of the dead, coinciding with the winter soltice and easter was the fertility festival, coinciding with the spring equinox. That is why we have pagan symbols (father christmas and the easter bunny and eggs) as well as christian symbols (the cross, the sunrise, etc..) for the holidays.

Everybody in the world should be required to watch a movie called 'Zeitgeist'.

Got that right. Doesn't really get going till about 10min in, so hang in there. Here's the link
video.google.com

dating to between the late 2nd century B.C. and the early 1st century A.D.,

Yupper! That's all the proof anyone needs....


Bullshit!
More speculation-offered as PROOF.
If it's proof-the date window would be a lot tighter-this is just someone's way of putting more lipstick on the pig-and there's already way too much on it....

shinymedia.blogs.com

More speculation-offered as PROOF.

#3 | Posted by frankf55

Yes, we certainly can't have any of that in religion.

Could you please provide proof that; 1)god created everything, 2)that jesus existed and 3) that jesus was resurrected.

I'll wait.

Jesus: Watch me pull a rabbit out of a hat.
D Thomas: But that trick never works!
Jesus: This time fer sure. Presto!

All religions are fractured fairy tales.

That sed, there is a baby in the mostly dirty bathwater.

Not to be thrown out sez Spud the athiest/recovering Catholic.

Be Well.

2nd century B.C. and the early 1st century A.D

That means they dated it two years before Jesus was born to one year after he was born.

How in the world do they determine the bowl refers to Jesus who, based on their dating, was only one years old? or, not even born yet?

I heard they found old documents referring to Clinton in 1920. I wonder if they meant Bill?

2nd century B.C. and the early 1st century A.D

That means they dated it two years before Jesus was born to one year after he was born.

----

Early 1st century A.D could be up until 40 AD.

I wonder if they meant Bill?

#7 | Posted by Petrous

No, they were talking about George Clinton, when he was with Funkadelic.

"Could you please provide proof that; 1)god created everything, 2)that jesus existed and 3) that jesus was resurrected.
I'll wait.
#5 | Posted by Lipzoidial at 2008-10-01 03:20 PM"

I think I saw Frank55 trotting off towards a Capuchin rectory in search of the necessary documentation.

In the meantime, may I offer you yesterday's hoot du jour?

"And the historical consensus is that Jesus did live, die and raise from the dead. . . .Even in my public schooling I learned critical thinking!
#85 | Posted by kirk at 2008-09-30 10:39 AM"

Q.E.D.

DIA CHRSTOU O GOISTAIS," which has been interpreted to mean either, "by Christ the magician" or, "the magician by Christ."

My best guess would be that since Christ is not a proper name, but means the one anointed--in Greek-Christos, that this does not refer to Jesus or any particular person for that matter.

It makes more sense to me that "Chrstou" refers to some form of the the word "khrisma" meaning oil used for anointing or other religious ceremonies. One can imagine that the cup was filled with chrism (oil) used for rituals of some kind hence the meaning of the inscription. By this oil, the magician.

It probably is not even tied to Christianity in any way.

Interesting, nonetheless.

Cheers

It probably is not even tied to Christianity in any way.


Interesting, nonetheless.

Either that or it is the Holy Grail. Alert Indiana Jones!


Cheers

The hand is quicker than the eye.

The Pledge
The Turn
The Prestige

Given Christ existed, one expects to find references to His life from time-to-time. Why is anyone surprised?

Given Ra existed, one expects to find references to him in Egypt.

"Ra, Ra, Ra...."

That's the spirit we have at More Science High.

Sorry, I went to Commie Martyrs High.

ISIS ISIS
RA RA RA

Seen Bottles lately?

I bet "Bottles" isn't really appropriate anymore.

Anubis, Anubis, Sis Boom Ba.

Christ has always triumphed.....

Turning a pagan festival into His birthday: Christmas.

Turning the Roman government --- its cruel persecutor --- into favor for Christianity.

Now invading Hinduism, Buddhism, Islam, heathenism, communism, etc, and gaining followers --- one recent example being the son of Hamas leader Sheik Hassan Yousef: Masab Yousef. He said that Islam is "a big lie" --- "The people who supposedly represent the religion admired Mohammed more than God, killed innocent people in the name of Islam, beat their wives and don't have any idea what God is."

Honestly, I'm with Kurt Vonnegut on Jesus; I enjoy the gospel of Thomas; "Become passers by."

But there's no magic and no immortality, even for the observable universe.

In the mean time there's hay to be cut, cameras to be built, love to be made, life to be lived.

I see forward into a time when assertions Christ never existed because there are few written references to Him outside the Gospels is succeeded by assertions He never existed because there are so many.

"I have taken more from alcohol than alcohol has taken from me."

-Winston Churchill

Just one contemporary record; One actual piece of physical evidence; Sorry.

It's a fairy tale.

Great magicians cannot create shoes that do not wear out in the great exodus. Great magicians cannot protect the people with a large cloud by day and a pillar of fire at night, let alone feed them with manna.

Our alien ancestors can.

The Golden Rule simply makes sense.

Immortality isn't available to anyone.

Yet folks have recently been willing to end their's and other's existence in the sincere belief in such nonsense.

Sad.

"I see forward into a time when assertions Christ never existed because there are few written references to Him outside the Gospels is succeeded by assertions He never existed because there are so many."

Can you name one other object that statement accurately represents?

"The whole history of the last thousands of years has been a history of religious persecutions and wars, pogroms, jihads, crusades. I find it all very regrettable, to say the least."
-- Steven Weinberg

I want Sarah Palin's thoughts on this.

I want her to find 'em and bring 'em to me.

"Let him who seeks, not cease seeking until he finds, and when he finds, he will be troubled, and when he has been troubled, he will marvel and he will reigh over the All."
-Jesus; Gospel of Thomas


That pretty much describes my trip into quantum mechanics and particle physics.

"DIA CHRSTOU O GOISTAIS"

I demand we deport all imgrents and make english the official laugwidge! Drill, Drill, Drill! Then we won't have none of this jibber-jabber ferner stuff a messin up our bibles and sutch! Let's put SS on the market, privitise, everything, then drill holes in it, then torture it some!

Sincerely

Sen V Goobe

Though aware that there is nothing in the universe that suggests any purpose for humanity, one way that we can find a purpose is to study the universe by the methods of science, without consoling ourselves with fairy tales about its future, or about our own.
-- Steven Weinberg

"Can you name one other object...."

The point, which you missed, is that an a priori conviction something never was cannot be impressed by evidence. Stated another way, a little or a lot, some people just aren't going to accept it.

"Just one contemporary record...."

But I'll bite---Let's say some record in Latin or Greek created in the early 1st Century is found that describes Christ or even one of His miracles? Going to church?

"Going to church?"

My mind is my own church.
-Thomas Paine

Can you name one other object?

the holy grail?

www.youtube.com

Do not feed troll.

i150.photobucket.com

My ex had a friend she called Slowly Grail.

i179.photobucket.com

I am always amazed at how bigoted this group is against anything religious - especially Christian. A religion that teaches foregiveness and tolerance of others.

As to the dating...if it was 1 Century AD - Christ has been dated at being crucified between 38 and 44 AD. This would mean that it fits the time line ( and not as stated above that it was before he was born).

More than likely it was an early communion cup - the Orthodox Catholics still refer the act of communion as a "holy mystery". So - "by the magic of Christ" would be appropriate to be on a cup.

"Christos Vos Cress"

CHRIST IS RISEN - GLORIFY HIM!


CHRIST = SUN WORSHIP

JESUS FISH = ENTERING THE AGE OF PISCES

Suck it Pagans...er...I mean Christians.

HA HA HA

Malaclypse the Younger had to appear before the apostles as Jesus post crucifixion to convince them Jesus had risen from the dead. It was either that or the apostles were going to start the jihad.

Hey Thomas.... put your hand in my side. ;-)

"Jesus Fish...."

So associating Jesus with fish was not a pun in Greek afterall? Who would have thought?

"Christ has always triumphed.....
Turning a pagan festival into His birthday: Christmas."

I'm with you, Takitez. Surely, the hundreds of thousand cut down pine trees, drunken Santa Claus impersonators, red and green colored hershey kisses, and early bird holiday sales at strip stores and supermalls across the country attest to this fact!

Render unto Caesar salad dressing and unto your Savior all Rankin-Bass Christmas special TV re-run petitions!!!!

Jesus has to exist. Where would Emmett Otter and his Jug Band be without Christmas?

"Where would Emmett Otter and his Jug Band be without Christmas?"

Emmett and his buddies probably would be on the dinner plate of that Riverbottom Nightmare Band, but the crazy lead singer went born-again, and formed a Christian metal band called "Stryper" instead.

Which only proves once and for all, that Jim Henson was truly God.


I am always amazed at how bigoted this group is against anything religious - especially Christian. A religion that teaches foregiveness and tolerance of others.


#41 | Posted by foshaffer at 2008-10-01 08:33 PM | Reply | Flag: Flag: (Choose)
FunnyNewsworthyOffensiveAbusiv
e

Really???? Thats Funny, the way my history books read christianity has killed more people than small pox and black plague together.


Do you some research Shaffer. Your comment is bullshit. I'm not saying that there aren't some good people out there in the Christian faith but as a whole is is loaded with bigotry and totally nonverifiable. Did Jesus walk on this Earth? I beleive so by documented history. But thats it. nothing more.

People like you need proof of everything but Jesus.






Jim Henson was truly God.

#47 | Posted by k_g_beekeeper

Wouldn't that make Digger "The Chosen One"?

Which only proves once and for all, that Jim Henson was truly God.

#47 | Posted by k_g_beekeeper

"we don't like to read and we hate what we don't understaaaand! Riverbottom Nightmare Band!"

I am always amazed by atheists who need to insist that an historical Jesus never walked the earth.

It is not enough for them simply to dismiss his divinity and believe that he was a man whose teaching got out of hand by overzealous followers. No they will not be comfortable until they convince themselves and others that he did not exist at all-- as if the very existence of some historical, and for them mortal, man threatens them.

I think their need to exorcise Jesus from history reveals more about their own emotional needs in regard to religion rather than some kind of hardcore pursuit truth.

Perhaps they are simply not comfortable with their secret, never to be admitted fear, that maybe, just maybe, they are actually missing out on something important. No doubt a part of them realizes that denial of this fear would be easier if they could just eliminate Jesus altogether.

PAX

I'm always amazed by people who can't pull themselves up by their own bootstraps and make their own way in life without talking to their IMAGINARY friend who never speaks back to them.

"need to exorcise Jesus from history"

In order for that to happen your imaginary friend had to be there in the first place.

"Pull themselves up by their own bootstraps...."

Never met anyone that did that. Have met many who presuaded themselves that's how it happened.

"Who never speaks to them...."

You've been told differently. As I stated above, a little or a lot, some people will never accept it.

I'm always amazed by people who can't pull themselves up by their own bootstraps and make their own way in life without talking to their IMAGINARY friend who never speaks back to them.

Really?

You are amazed that in a world filled with constant everyday struggles people turn to what they believe is a higher power for help or assistance.

This really amazes you?

Now, I am amazed.


PAX

Brian Welch, ex-Korn turned to Christ --- and many youth were influenced too and became......


I am always amazed at how bigoted this group is against anything religious - especially Christian. A religion that teaches foregiveness and tolerance of others.

#41 | Posted by foshaffer


This is about as idiotic as it gets. Today's Christians, especially the evangelicals here in the US, are some the most intolerant and unforgiving people on the planet. Enough that they are often compared to fundamentalist muslims. Poor Jesus must be spinning in his seat at the right hand of God knowing all the shit that is done in His name.

One can believe in God, one can believe in Jesus but one would have to be retarded to believe in organized religion. To all that think that the bible is the word of God, it was put together, anecdote by anecdote, by the princes of the churches with the specific intent of controlling the populace. There are hundreds of thousands of books in the vatican and other depositories, that contradict every passage in the bible. The various gospels rarely agree on anything and sometimes contradict each other. But, hey, if this brings comfort to some needy, then I guess it is worth it for them but not me. I will practice my faith in private knowing that all God wants from us is to be a good person and help others in need.

"need to exorcise Jesus from history"


In order for that to happen your imaginary friend had to be there in the first place.

This is an excellent example of my point. Note the air of superiority that one is suppose to gain by referring to God as "your imaginary friend." The use of such a phrase is so utterly transparent. It reveals a deep need to feel superior by characterizing someone else's beliefs as inferior or, in this case, childish.

As such by characterizing the response in such a way this person hopes to gain some emotional benefit/payoff at the expense of others.

It is not enough simply not to believe in the divinity of Christ, many atheists that I have encountered need to condescend to those who believe in order to feel good about themselves and their lack of belief.

The great irony, of course, is that atheists accuse people of turn to God as an emotional crutch; yet these same people use the denial of God to prop themselves up emotionally with a feeling of superiority.

PAX

The great irony, of course, is that atheists accuse people of turn to God as an emotional crutch; yet these same people use the denial of God to prop themselves up emotionally with a feeling of superiority.

At least those who have a tool to turn to during emotional times are able to heal themselves. Those who lack the tool seemed to think they can fix their fucked up mind with a fucked up mind.

Truth is truth and cannot be bent --- this is not intolerance. Evangelicals are some of the most compassionate in the world, but they will not compromise on the TRUTH. And most tolerant --- evidence: you insult Jesus and evangelicals will pray for you.

Liberals are the most intolerant and hypocritical about it.

Most intolerant in descending degree....

Islam. Hindu. Liberals. Followers of Darwin.

"but they will not compromise on the TRUTH. "

And you're in possession of the "TRUTH" are you?

Evangelicals are some of the most compassionate in the world,

While you can certainly say this is true, one can also support that evangelicals are some of the most uncompassionate intolerant people in the world.

Thus making the point mute.

And what do liberals have to do with this.

Oh, liberals is a means of overall negative contention throwing, incompassing all areas that you don't think are within your ideas of control. In other words, liberals are just bad and anything associated with bad is certainly liberal.

NULLFIDIAN: Jesus is the TRUTH (John 14:6).

"NULLFIDIAN: Jesus is the TRUTH (John 14:6).

#64 | Posted by takitez"

Sure dude.


Most intolerant in descending degree....


Christians.Islam. Hindu. Liberals. Followers of Darwin.

Jesus belongs with the Easter Bunny and Santa Claus. Get over it.

The stories were all stolen from older religions.

Believe what you like--But STFU when around adults and you won't have any problems.

"Evangelicals are some of the most compassionate in the world,"

Modern evangelical compassion deals superficially with awareness and feeling, but does not speak to any real DOING-- that is, evangelicals are more or less content to pay lip service to compassion, yet not "suffer with", as a rough latin translation of the term should suggest, those who either seek meaning in their lives through God worship, or those who do not know how to seek it or even how to look. This leads to a rather unfortunate disease to be found in many American evangelicals-- a desparate tendency to sound as if they are professing from a high pulpit rather than a cross. The difference is stark.

Jesus, if he indeed hung from the cross, was set above others in pain, humiliation, and weakness, whereas many evangelicals set them self above others, not by Jesus' example, but in security, haughtiness and feigned humility through pulpit-speak, in which they use as a twist to show their social and political strength. This is evidenced by many an internet-savvy evangelical who figuratively "pass by on the other side" those who are most in need, relying instead on from-afar pulpitism, preferring to rabble-rouse instead of comfort, to damn those not near to them in order to secure the certainty of their close surroundings.

Jesus, as a man, taught us one thing more than anything else-- that gaining a little bit of faith only poisons us to hate quicker and easier, and that we must increase our faith in a steadfast and unyielding way until the encompassing love dissipates the hate, until the tendency to postulate from afar is overcome by the human NEED to suffer with the near, even if it takes unto the death to do so.



big deal. I knew 12 Jesuses when I lived in Phoenix. They didn't bowl but a couple rolled in lowriders.

And you're in possession of the "TRUTH" are you?

----

And atheists are as well. There's one similarity...everybody, whether Christian or atheist, thinks their belief is "truth".

The truth is the existence of God can never be proven or disproven. That's why it's a belief.

"And atheists are as well."

Wrong, at least for me. Atheism means a-theism, i.e., non-theism. The burden of proof is on theists to make their case. Theism doesn't have to be disproven. It's an assertion that must be proven like any other assertion such as the existence of leprechauns. Until that's proven, I'm an a-leprechaunist.

Yes, its a belief, one that has a proven record of changing millions of lives.

I have not known atheism to change lives dramatically.

Wrong. A-theism is a lack of belief in theism. Just like a-leprechaunism.

Lee Strobel has a compelling book: The Case for Jesus (or something like that).

An ex-atheist, got jealous when his wife found Christ --- he sees something dynamic about people who really discovered Christ and wanted that dynamism in his life. He investigated and found the Gospels (Matthew, Mark, Luke, John) to be incredibly authentic. As a lawyer/journalist, he understood something about authentic writing.

THE CASE FOR CHRIST --- Lee Strobel.

One thing that many might question is thw refference to "magician". Guess what? That is one of the titles some knew him by. That is along with another man and a woman. Yes it's true that Christ had competition from two other "magicians" of that time. This is for some reason little known. It makes the likelihood of the artifact being possibly a true relic of that time possible. Sorry folks but no April fools on this one.

Before you ignorant atheists get all excited, the word "Christ" is an adjective, not a surname. In Christianity, Jesus is referred to as "the Christ", usually shortened to "Jesus Christ". But that doesn't mean that another religion or belief system can't use the word "Christ" in some other way. If some primitive thinks God lives in a tree, that doesn't mean it's the same god that others recognize.

"Christ" means "messiah" to Jews or "anointed one" to most Christians. Hindus and Muslims have other meanings and religious interpretations of "Christ". So anyone making any connection of this sign to Jesus is very likely to be wrong.

Temple of Luxor, circa 2500 BCE: Neat mural depicts the incoming Jesus..angels, a virgin Mom, the whole nine yards.

Whoopsie. His name be Ra, the Sun dude.

Oh, fuck.

Now, I am amazed.


PAX


#55 | Posted by Grendel at 2008-10-01 10:24 PM | Reply | Flag: Flag: (Choose)
FunnyNewsworthyOffensiveAbusiv
e

you likely get off on snake handling, speaking in "tongues" , smoke and mirrors, coin up the sleeve, old wives tales....

like many in the cult world, you are easily amazed.


Yes, its a belief, one that has a proven record of changing millions of lives.


I have not known atheism to change lives dramatically.

#72 | Posted by takitez at 2008-10-01 11:48 PM | Reply | Flag: Flag: (Choose)
FunnyNewsworthyOffensiveAbusiv
e

RIGHT!

I can see the good its done in this country.

Do your self a favor and find out how much crime, domestic violence, drug abuse, prostitution, and divorice was actually perpetrated by a "christian"

its laughable.

We are all sinners lefty, haven't you heard???

As for lips comment:

"Could you please provide proof that; 1)god created everything, 2)that jesus existed and 3) that jesus was resurrected.
I'll wait.
#5 | Posted by Lipzoidial

It's called Faith...the belief in something which can't be independently proven...

"Today's Christians, especially the evangelicals here in the US, are some the most intolerant and unforgiving people on the planet. Enough that they are often compared to fundamentalist muslims. Poor Jesus must be spinning in his seat at the right hand of God knowing all the shit that is done in His name.

One can believe in God, one can believe in Jesus but one would have to be retarded to believe in organized religion."

#57 | Posted by geezer1

Interesting contrast there, Geez.

Christians are intolerant and unforgiving.

Those who participate in organized religion are retarded.

You could use a tablespoon of tolerance, a cup of compassion, and just a dash of forgivennes in your personal recipe of life.

Though I am not an adherent of an organized religion you so obviously rail about, organized religion does provides a focus in many people's lives, a community, a social setting where people can congregate and be together under a common belief. Also, do not dismiss the contributions that many churches, temples, synagogues, etc., make to the general community, providing many volunteer services that the Government cannot or will not supply. Counseling, housing, help in disasters, food kitchens, and so forth, many, many things for which they ask no payment, no dues, no taxes.

"Could you please provide proof that; 1)god created everything"

#5 | Posted by Lipzoidial

Can you provide proof that God did not create everything?

Arrogant, ignorant, small human, crawling across the surface of a small planet, orbiting a minor star in the a far flung arm of a galaxy of which there are billions. The human race has barely scratched the surface of what the universe contains, the nearly infinite wonders yet to be discovered. A handfull of probes to our local planets, some pictures taken from orbiting telescopes, though fabulous, and you think we have enough data to conclude that there is no God? You peer into your telescope, come to certain conclusions, and then make rash implications that there is no God. What do you know about it? Where is your definitive proof that there is not a God?

A long, long time ago, before there were galaxies, something occurred to create this incredible universe we live in. Do not even pretend you have the answers. Do not be branded an even greater arrogant fool by mouthing yet more conclusions of which you cannot possibly have even the slightest clue.

Wow!

So the Egyptians were a big bunch of dummies too.

Not much has changed except for the fact that they, the Egyptians, were able to build massive structures under budget and on time.

I guess we are regressing or devolving.

I know Jesus existed. I saw his face in my toast this morning.

Bid Now On Ebay

Do not be branded an even greater arrogant fool by mouthing yet more conclusions of which you cannot possibly have even the slightest clue.
posted by ZOT

I'm pretty sure with your last post you solidly branded yourself the arrogant fool by mouthing your conclusion of which you cannot possibly have even the slightest clue.

"Could you please provide proof that; 1)god created everything"

This begs the question of what will you accept as proof.

Since you ask for proof (I think you really mean evidence), then you implicitly admit the possibility that he exists.

Since you admit the possibility that he exists, then a whole host of serious and important questions arise for you.

You will need to define, as best as you can, what is God. How else can you search for something unless you know what it is?

Once you hold that definition, you need to ask yourself what sort of evidence might there be for the existence of such a being? Where should I look for evidence? What form might evidence take? And most importantly, what assumptions am I willing to make about knowledge, understanding and reality in this search?

Of course you will need to come to grips with the fact that such a search involves inductive reasoning. As such, inductive reasoning never arrives at conclusive proofs (like deductive reasoning does). At best, you will only be able to create degrees of certainty.

One of the conclusions you might come to is, that it is impossible for humans to grasp God, but, under most definitions of God, it is not impossible for God to reach man. This leads one to very interesting questions.

If God exists, perhaps he has revealed himself to human beings. Perhaps the evidence is there. If so, how might a being unlimited in power and knowledge reveal himself in the past and present to human beings who are greatly limited in knowledge and power? (While pondering this, consider how you might reveal your existence and your 21st century knowledge of the universe and power to a group of stone age tribes men living in the Amazon. For example, would you explain the construction and purpose of the Hadron collider? If so, how would you do it?)

Enjoy the search. It's one that lasts a lifetime.

PAX

Holy smokes, Grendel. Reading that caused my aneurysm to pop.

Since you ask for proof (I think you really mean evidence), then you implicitly admit the possibility that he exists.

That is your false premise. He did not admit that it is possible for god to exist anymore than he admitted that it is possible that the Easter Bunny is god.

What he admitted was that it is impossible for you to prove anything about god. He admitted god has the same possiblility as the Easter Bunny or Santa Claus.

If he admitted the possiblity that god exists, then you have to admit the possibility that Santa and the Bunny are real.

I'm pretty sure with your last post you solidly branded yourself the arrogant fool by mouthing your conclusion of which you cannot possibly have even the slightest clue.

#86 | Posted by dfiant

And that comment is supposed to make any sense? Okaaaay...

I make no conclusions to the subject. I continue to ask the 5W1H question, knowing that I will never have the answer (or I may after my body dies - I don't know). You are right in that, if the intent of your statement was to imply that I have no clue, that is essentially correct: I don't. But I do see the creation that surrounds me and I wonder.

Those who definitively state that there is no God (and, consequently, why doesn't God exhibit active, fully visible involvement in the doings of humans on Earth) are only deceiving themselves.

Faith and inductive reasoning;

God is love
Love is blind
Ray Charles is blind
Ray Charles is God

The resembalance is uncanny...

voice.files.wordpress.com

did you christians know (and this is historical fact), that St Luke, or Lucanus, as he was known at the time, was a physician of some reknown in his day. He wrote one of the valued 4 gospels of the new testament.

He never even saw Jesus and was never in his presence at all. His gospel is written from heresay.

And we are not even allowed to see 'The Gospel of Mary Magdelene' and many others. And no one even knows who wrote Revelations.

and why can't protestants read the Latin vulgate?

One of these days you will realize the greatest crime ever perpetuated on mankind. The politicians took the writings of Jesus Christ and corrupted them to further their political ends.

I personally believe the writings of Jesus Christ are the most humane and philosphically life affirming writings ever, but he is not God. Sorry.

Well done, Lippy. I concur.

"dating to between the late 2nd century B.C. and the early 1st century A.D."

When you produce a time frame that can so obviously be demonstrated to be beyond the time that Jesus existed, then claim it to prove his existence, you do leave yourself open to ridicule.

"The burden of proof is on theists to make their case."

The biggest problem, as I see it. One side seems to be desperate to prove Jesus's (or God's) existence, the other side ridiculing it. Yet the entire point of religion is faith, not proof. I really do not see any necessity to prove that Jesus lived. Nor do any of the Catholics I know. Is this an Evangelical thing?

It is far too easy to hate Christianity on the basis of the past history(the crusades) and more particularly the evangelicals of today. At least were money ie "donations are collected and seem to vanish. People should understand that accepting money that is to be used for the benefit of those without, is correct. To run a circus sideshow that collects huge amounts of money that seem to benefit only the phony evangelist and his cronies that is unfortunately what far to many see as "real" Christianity. For what its worth, these POS do not represent anyone but themselves and their bank accounts. Believe it our not, they have as personal income "0". All of the private jets, limos and such are really the property of the church. Although the head man owns it for all intents and purposes. They must live like kings for some unexplained reason. They do not represent true Christianity. Please don't mistake their very public and oh-so-pious act. They are in the business of lining their own pockets and do not represent any real church.

I really do not see any necessity to prove that Jesus lived.

#95 | Posted by fyi at 2008-10-02 01:03 PM | Reply | Flag


If Jesus wasn't the son of god and you spend your whole life worshipping Jesus--you have wasted your life. I guess if you don't see any necessity for your life to have value--worshipping a figment of imagination is as valid as any pastime.

You are right in that, if the intent of your statement was to imply that I have no clue, that is essentially correct: I don't. But I do see the creation that surrounds me and I wonder.

Those who definitively state that there is no God (and, consequently, why doesn't God exhibit active, fully visible involvement in the doings of humans on Earth) are only deceiving themselves.
posted by ZOT


That was exactly the intent of my statement. I was just using your own words to argue the opposite side of issue. I'll do it again using your latest statement cause it's just so much fun.

Those who definitively state that there is a God are only deceiving themselves.

Yes, its a belief, one that has a proven record of changing millions of lives.
POSTED BY TAKITEZ

yep, even ending it.

Turning the Roman government --- its cruel persecutor --- into favor for Christianity.

Ushering in the longest period of religious persecution and violence in human history. Atta' boy, Connie!

"you have wasted your life ..."

Based on whose criteria - yours? Do you really believe that people who believe in Jesus (aside from Evangelicals) spend all their time sitting around talking about religion?

"I guess if you don't see any necessity for your life to have value ..."

Again, whose criteria - yours? A life full of conspiracy theories and a pig-headed faith that isolated incidents constitute "proof" is a life with value? Sounds to me that maybe someone should be able to point to a good example before criticizing others' belief system. "Worshipping a figment of imagination is as valid as any pastime", a very good description of your beliefs, is better?

"by Christ the magician"

I always knew that Jesus is Magic!

www.google.com

Enjoy the search. It's one that lasts a lifetime.

PAX

#87 | Posted by Grendel at 2008-10-02 10:40 AM

why bother? The "proof" comes when you die.

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

i422.photobucket.com

To all of the Christian bashers, do you realize that when you make fun of Christianity you are insulting every other religion in the world? Like to see some of you brave people go tell a Muslim extremist that his Allah is a fairytale.

Allah is the same nonexistent god of Abraham all the other practitioners of the Abrahamic superstition worship.

ISIS ISIS
RA RA RA
-Chac


"you have wasted your life ..."


Based on whose criteria - yours?

No--not my criteria---how about yours. Do you think worshipping a non existent being is a valid use of time? Try to focus now---I didn't say anything about the existence or non existence of any god. I asked if worshipping a non existent being was a valid use of time.

Do you really believe that people who believe in Jesus (aside from Evangelicals) spend all their time sitting around talking about religion?

Where did you get such nonsense from? If you waste ten minutes worshipping a figment of imagination--that is wasted life. Your strawmen are as stupid as you are--try some logic courses. If you spend your whole life in a belief that is untrue, you have wasted that portion of your life in such activity. No one does one thing their whole life--only an idiot like you would bring up such a scenario.


"I guess if you don't see any necessity for your life to have value ..."


Again, whose criteria - yours?

Nope. Again--let's use your criteria. Do you think worshipping a figment of imagination gives a life value?

A life full of conspiracy theories and a pig-headed faith that isolated incidents constitute "proof" is a life with value? Sounds to me that maybe someone should be able to point to a good example before criticizing others' belief system. "Worshipping a figment of imagination is as valid as any pastime", a very good description of your beliefs, is better?

Yes---infinitely better. I have evidence for my statements--hard evidence that can be seen and entered into court proceedings. The religious among us have a book full of stolen stories from religions that are ridiculed. And the stories made more sense in their original form.

#101 | Posted by fyi at 2008-10-02 01:22 PM | Reply | F

"how about yours"

My belief is that the biggest factor in having a valued life is having a _belief_ system. Not having one is the biggest proof of not living such a life.

"Do you think worshipping a non existent being"

Well, if you had proof, we might debate the issue.

"If you waste ten minutes worshipping a figment of imagination--that is wasted life."

So you must lead a very wasted life, spending all that time on ridiculous conspiracy theories.

"Where did you get such nonsense from?"

I didn't realize that you meant that spending even ten minutes living different from what you demand constitutes a wasted life. I figured it meant, you know, _living_ a certain way. Silly me.

"Do you think worshipping a figment of imagination gives a life value?"

Two problems. You still haven't proved it's a "figment of my imagination". And second, I am talking about a belief system, not a worship system. Use another straw man.

"I have evidence for my statements ..."

Pretty much most people call it "delusion". Your "proofs" use swiss-cheese logic. You are extremely fond of the "if a=b then x must equal y" logic. Infinitely stupid.

Still, your point only comes down to your "delusion" being better than the "religious delusion". Fine for you. Yet the ridicule you attach definitely brands you as just as intolerant as any other radical/intolerant group.

What he admitted was that it is impossible for you to prove anything about god. He admitted god has the same possiblility as the Easter Bunny or Santa Claus.


If he admitted the possiblity that god exists, then you have to admit the possibility that Santa and the Bunny are real.


No, I don't.

If you are genuinely going to ask someone for proof, then, implicit, in the request is the possibility for proof.

If you believe that such proof is completely impossible, then you are not engaging in an open debate. You are simply posturing.

I have not asked anyone to provide evidence for the existence of Santa Claus or the Easter Bunny. Why would I make such a request or even enter into a debate on such a subject if did not believe in the possibility of it as a reality?

Remember all of this the next time someone asks you to provide the existence of aliens on the moon or that the moon landings have been faked. They might not believe you, but in even entertaining the question they are entertaining the possibility.

Cheers

#87 | Posted by Grendel at 2008-10-02 10:40 AM


why bother? The "proof" comes when you die.

Unfortunately, not for atheists.

In regard to the afterlife, religious people will never know if they are wrong and atheists will never know if they are right.

PAX

"Do you think worshipping a figment of imagination gives a life value?"

For atheists the belief that their life has any possible meaning can only be a figment of their imagination. (Where else could it come from?)

PAX

For atheists the belief that their life has any possible meaning can only be a figment of their imagination. (Where else could it come from?)


PAX

#111 | Posted by Grendel at 2008-10-02 02:51 PM | Reply |


What possible meaning could your life have whether you worship or not? What possible activity could make your life worthwhile by worshipping a god--even if the god were factual?

My point is---since I'm sure you can't figure it out is this:

Tell me the meaning of your life.

Grendel

Are you saying Santa Claus is not real? Are you saying the Easter Bunny is not real? If so--make your statement clear.

In an Oriental Philosophy class in college we were asked to write an essay on "What is the meaning of life?"

I turned in a blank piece of paper.

Got an A.

Though aware that there is nothing in the universe that suggests any purpose for humanity, one way that we can find a purpose is to study the universe by the methods of science, without consoling ourselves with fairy tales about its future, or about our own.
-- Steven Weinberg

" ... is to study the universe by the methods of science"

So philosophy is out? Nice of Stevie to mention this to all of them.

What possible meaning could your life have whether you worship or not? What possible activity could make your life worthwhile by worshipping a god--even if the god were factual?


My point is---since I'm sure you can't figure it out is this:


Tell me the meaning of your life.

The only thing that I can think of that gives life meaning are our relationships to other beings who exist. Human beings are social by our very nature. The existence of a deity that wishes to have some kind of relationship with us is the source of our relationship with the universe.

Without such a deity the universe is completely unaware and indifferent to one's existence. We can thus have no relationship with it. We merely exist in it on a par with rocks and spend this existence believing that we actually matter when in fact the very idea of meaning doesn't really exist. It along with all human thought is a human construct.

Atheists believe a meaningful universe is a fabrication of the mind and therefore are smug and critical of those who do. Oddly enough, however, they don't believe that whatever meaning they award their lives is any less a fabrication.

To answer your question, the meaning of my life is to explore the relationship I and humanity share with the great meaning behind the universe.

Cheers


"So philosophy is out? Nice of Stevie to mention this to all of them."

Posted by fyi

"Philosophy is useless."
-Steve weinberg

Weinberg

Sorry Steve, don't hit me.

"Philosophy is useless."
-Steve weinberg

And that, of course, seals it.

"Philosophy is useless."

Especially given that philosophy was the father to science.

"Especially given that philosophy was the father to science."

Posted by fyi

[citation needed]

""Philosophy is useless."

Weinberg didn't have a PhD (Doctor of Philosophy)?

What an idiot. That sounds like something a calculator would say if it could speak.

In regard to the afterlife, religious people will never know if they are wrong and atheists will never know if they are right.

PAX

#110 | Posted by Grendel at 2008-10-02 02:48 PM

hmm are you saying that there is no "afterlife" and that Heaven/Hell stuff is all a lie? So, when I die and when my essence has gone to that "other" place are you saying I won't even realize it?

Right ON!

Seems to me that if there is a God he would want me to "know" that so that I could "worship" Him properly. (Gods are really into being worshiped!)

So, what is the point then?

As you may have figured out I have decided that if there is a God then it is up to Him to prove it not me. I know I exist. There is some serious doubt as to whether He does. I have stopped chasing after this God or any God for that matter. It seems to me that I am more important to Him (or Them) than He is to me. So, if he really wants me to understand Him then He knows how to get a hold of me.

But, I will not hold me breath on being "contacted" anytime soon.


To answer your question, the meaning of my life is to explore the relationship I and humanity share with the great meaning behind the universe.

Cheers

#116 | Posted by Grendel at 2008-10-02 03:25 PM | Reply

Horsepucky---what "meaning behind the universe" are you referring to?

That that is is that that is not is not.


"Especially given that philosophy was the father to science."

Posted by fyi


[citation needed]


#121 | Posted by Zatoichi at 2008-10-02 03:58 PM

Lots of luck with that one---I don't think you want to know from where that quote was pulled.

"[citation needed]"

Read about the ancient Greeks. Aristotle, Archimedes, etc.

"hmm are you saying that there is no "afterlife" and that Heaven/Hell stuff is all a lie?" - Donnerboy

Interpretation is not your strong suit, is it. Try reading it again, with some analysis this time. It helps give credibility to how you rip him.

"Lots of luck with that one"

Yeah, it would require you to read about what the ancient Greeks thought and how they thought. Easier to claim it was a conspiracy.