Drudge Retort: Red Meat for Yellow Dogs

Defying a federal law that prohibits U.S. clergy from endorsing political candidates from the pulpit, 33 pastors across the country set out Sunday to intentionally defy the IRS' 54-year-old ban on political endorsements by tax-exempt houses of worship.

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In the modern red-brick Living Stones Church in Crown Point, a town of 28,000 residents 50 miles southeast of Chicago, Johnson explained why he thinks a minister should dispense political advice. He then laid out his view of the positions of Obama and McCain on abortion and same-sex marriage, which he called two issues "that transcend all others."

What a pathetic hack.

what did god's scripture say about the following

1. wars of agression
2. death penalty
3. living wages
4. wealth distribution
5. being rich
6. being judgemental
7. torture
8. habeaus corpus
9. guns
10. the environment

etc.

Being tax-exempt is a status, for which certain guidelines must be followed.

The Restriction of Political Campaign Intervention by Section 501(c)(3) Tax-Exempt Organizations

Under the Internal Revenue Code, all section 501(c)(3) organizations are absolutely prohibited from directly or indirectly participating in, or intervening in, any political campaign on behalf of (or in opposition to) any candidate for elective public office. Contributions to political campaign funds or public statements of position (verbal or written) made on behalf of the organization in favor of or in opposition to any candidate for public office clearly violate the prohibition against political campaign activity. Violating this prohibition may result in denial or revocation of tax-exempt status and the imposition of certain excise taxes.

Danforth,


Your excerpt validifies my point regarding the similarities between religious groups and groups like AARP - what's good for the goose and all that.


Although, upon inspection my comment is on a different thread.

church's temples mosques
etc etc
should stop with this immediately

in my small ct community
we've specifically reminded the clergy at the mosque to not endorse any candidate

being a mosque they are constantly being looked at by homeland security anyways. so we have to be extra strict about the rules and regulations.

Your excerpt validifies my point regarding the similarities between religious groups and groups like AARP

YEAH!

So you contend that the AARP also subscribes to an ancient book of mythology and Fairytales?

Your excerpt validifies my point regarding the similarities between religious groups and groups like AARP - what's good for the goose and all that.


Although, upon inspection my comment is on a different thread.

#4 | Posted by JeffJ at

Perhaps you can elighten us on which candidate that AARP has endorsed.

Nonpartisan Organization

AARP is a nonprofit, nonpartisan organization that helps people 50+ have independence, choice and control in ways that are beneficial and affordable to them and society as a whole. AARP does not endorse, support, or oppose political candidates or parties, and does not have a PAC
www.aarp.org

BTW, what the hell does "validifies" mean?

Perhaps you can elighten us on which candidate that AARP has endorsed.


In 2004 it was the candidate who was opposed to privatizing Social Security. Don't be a moron.


BTW, what the hell does "validifies" mean?

I meant to say "validates".


Jeff,

I am sure you can provide a link to their official endorsement.

I have seen many "issues" that the AARP either favors or opposes, but never a candidate.

The test will go to court - is the prohibition a violation of free speech.

Imagine the State Gov't allowing you to obtain a license to drive your car. But, to obtain this car, you have to refrain from political activity.

A benefit at the cost of free speech.

They should have just challenged it in court and not violate the laws involving their exemption. If they lose in court, there's much more to lose. Violating the law to challenge the law isn't always the best way to handle it.

Also, why do people have a problem with religious organizations receiving voucher-money for schools?

The cries about it are a lot louder than those contesting the tax deduction for giving to churches.

I'd rather just see no exempt organzations. Heck, take away exmept anythings. Everyone is equally taxed.

Imagine the State Gov't allowing you to obtain a license to drive your car. But, to obtain this car, you have to refrain from political activity


No one is telling them they cannot excercise their right of free speech. But what the IRS is saying is that if they want to enjoy the "priviledge" of being tax exempt they cannot engage in political activities.

Also, why do people have a problem with religious organizations receiving voucher-money for schools?



I think that any school that wishes to receive federal or state funds must accept special needs students and that they cannot teach only one religious doctrine.

I'd rather just see no exempt organzations. Heck, take away exmept anythings. Everyone is equally taxed.

#11 | Posted by Petrous

I'll advocate for that.

I think that any school that wishes to receive federal or state funds must accept special needs students and that they cannot teach only one religious doctrine.

#13 | Posted by 726

And that too.

According to the National Oranization for Women web page:

NOW is a non-profit, tax-exempt membership organization working politically and legislatively to advance women's rights.

They, however, endorsed Obama

www.now.org

Cheers


"They, however, endorsed Obama"

Then let them pay taxes.

It's a pretty clear rule.

They should face the consequences for their actions like other ministers have done for years, like the Reverend Martin Luther King, Jr. His fight was nobler though.

And Zatiochi, if Christianity's a myth, all you have to do is historically refute the Resurrection of Jesus Christ and we'll all close up shop and go away.

But the way of "your kind" is just to hurl insults and names and run away...

NOW is a non-profit, tax-exempt membership organization working politically and legislatively to advance women's rights.

They, however, endorsed Obama.

NOW, like other non-profit, tax-exempt organizations, some of whom endorsed McCain, are not churches. Does the same law apply to them as applies to churches? I don't know the answer. What I gather from the article is that the law regarding churches is meant to keep a separation between church and state. If the same law that applies to churches applies to organizations like NOW, then those organizations should be subject to the law just as the churches are. IOW, they should be able to support issues but not back candidates.

Okay, I guess it doesn't matter if the tax exempt organization is a charity or a church:

www.prbuzz.com

I agree with, Zat: let them all pay taxes if they want to endorse candidates.

"all you have to do is historically refute the Resurrection of Jesus Christ"

Whereas all you have to do is scientifically prove the Resurrection. Have at it.


.......Tax Them All......

I'm still mulling on this one.

Well, if NOW can openly endorse Obama and continue to receive tax exempt status, then Churches should not be treated differently.

Are you speaking of a spiritual resurrection or bodily resurrection?

To refute the bodily resurrection all you need to look at is that they may have found Jesus's bone box (ossuary).

Notice I said may because I cannot be sure but a professor of mathematics figures it is 600 to 1 to be his box and tomb.

Andrey Feuerverger I think is his name. Call him.

Freedom of Speech trumps the IRS.

Hope this goes to the SCOTUS. The IRS will lose.

This ban was started by LBJ to stop the churches in Texas from talking about him. (Or some such)


It is an illegal ban just like the DC gun ban was illegal under the Constitution.

Amendment I
Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the government for a redress of grievances.

www.law.cornell.edu


IRS loses.

Rose--it wasn't Jesus' bone box--it was claimed to be his (half) brother's bone box.

Jesus rose from the dead and his body was gone--remember your catecism classes?

Just that little inconvenient 'Separation of Church and State' thingamajiggy

I hope the IRS takes away their tax free status. They have enough cash as it is. All the rethugs can help reimburse us for the financial malfeasance of George Hoover Walker Bush.

"I'd rather just see no exempt organzations. Heck, take away exmept anythings. Everyone is equally taxed."

I agree 100% with this statement, if only it were reality!!

Murphy, since they want tax exemption status they gotta play by those laws as well, so revoke every churches exemption, let them say what they are already trying to say anyway and at least pony up their share for AMERICA!!


All nonprofits have a right to say whatever they like but we all share the blame for the mountain of debt we have amassed and maybe we should all pay our way out of it sans exception.


hm, early in the season for fundies, no? jethros aren't too dumb though: they get their message out, get the spotlight, maybe get a fine when they back down?

"Well, if NOW can openly endorse Obama and continue to receive tax exempt status, then Churches should not be treated differently."

They shouldn't be a 501(c) 3 company then. They should be stripped of status and taxed. Come on ladies pony it up for America!

LM

let them pay taxes then

That's not the case, rather the ban stems from a little-known tax-reform amendment introduced by Lyndon Johnson in 1954."

That was the era of McCarthyism. Johnson, then a Democratic senator up for re-election in Texas, sponsored an amendment to a tax reform bill that prohibited tax-exempt organizations from participating in or intervening in political campaigns. Davidson says Johnson's goal at the time appears to have been to thwart a conservative, tax-exempt Texas foundation, Facts Forum. That group had become a key source of information for "Red Scare" activists and a source of support for right-wing candidates.

"Johnson was not trying to address any Constitutional issue, nor did he offer the amendment because of anything that churches had done," Davidson says. "There was no discussion of the amendment on the floor prior to passage, so we don't know whether any of the senators had any idea of the far-reaching affects it would have on churches."

www.purdue.edu

It was a ban Johnson slipped into a bill to quash the churches back home in TX.

It is unconstitutional and the IRS will lose.

Congress shall not abridge the freedom of speech. That is what Johnson did.


Well, if NOW can openly endorse Obama and continue to receive tax exempt status, then Churches should not be treated differently.

#23 | Posted by takitez at 2008-09-29 09:45 PM | Reply


There is a separation between church and state. In this country--we don't want them mixed. WHY????????????????? Look at the middle East or any country that has religion as a large factor in its politics.

Yeah Rose, Jesus was resurected right after Zeus lost his wrestling match with Buddha and had to give his daughter Shiva to Allah so that the Rah was appeased and didn't send Sobek to eat them all.

LM

"It is unconstitutional and the IRS will lose."

Wrong. There is nothing in the constitution which guarantees the right to be tax-exempt.

"Congress shall not abridge the freedom of speech."

They didn't. They merely set standards which organizations must meet to achieve tax-exempt status. The organizations can say anything they want. If they choose to enter the political debate, however, they voluntarily forfeit their tax-exempt status.

There is no Separation of Church and State --- rather it is that the State will not interfere in the business of the church.

All nonprofits have a right to say whatever they like but we all share the blame for the mountain of debt we have amassed and maybe we should all pay our way out of it sans exception.

#29 | Posted by noah

NOAH,

Could you scoot over to the Palin/Dinosaurs thread? Palin says you, your family, T-Rex, And Velociraptors had a peaceful time on the Ark. If you could clear that up for us we'd all appreciate it.

If these ugly 33 really tried to promulgate the notion that Jesus would have voted for McBush over O'Bama, they should not merely be taxed, they should be defrocked.

I've pushed the ACLU, which would surely protest this blatant mixing of church and state, but also send the odd buck to Americans United For Separation of Church and State - where the legal action should begin, herm

"Congress shall not abridge the freedom of speech."


Dan--what the hell do you call Johnson--while in the Congress slipping in this ban?

He was in the congress and he put that ban in the bill and Congress voted on it.

What they did was unconstitutional.

Congress cannot abridge the freedom of speech for any reason.

Next they will abridge the freedom of speech because you have only women members or only men members, or no freedom of speech because you are gay or because--you pick the reason.

Congress cannot abridge the freedom of speech for any reason at all.


let them pay taxes then

#32 | Posted by Shawn

But they're endorsing Obama!

"There is no Separation of Church and State --- rather it is that the State will not interfere in the business of the church."

This is the best example of why our economy is fucked and our educational system is pathetic.
We got dipshits like this who wanna live by stone age writings and ass backward thinking....Instead of focusing on technology and science we have peeps like this.....no wonder countries are passing us left and right in education and science fields.....sad and I thought the dark ages were over, but no the church is still fucking here.


LM

Or if you are MSNBC you would blast Palin and McCain. MSNCC=liberal BULLSHI*!

There is NOTHING in the Constitution about separation of church and state either.


That phrase formed from a letter Jefferson wrote the Danbury Baptist church--not the constitution.

www.usconstitution.net

Jesse Jackass routinely goes into churches and
endorses candidates while begging for campaign
donations.

No one in the MSM calls him on it.
Moral cowards.

I just LOVE it. The Right Wingers are all for Free Speech when it comes to Pastors endorsing political candidates but oh they want to quash people like Fred Phelps His Free Speech rights. Amazing dontcha think??

Larry

"What they did was unconstitutional.
Congress cannot abridge the freedom of speech for any reason."

Bullshit. You can't yell 'fire' in a theatre.

More to the point, this has nothing to do with free speech. It has to do with organizations who wish to remain tax-exempt. The IRS isn't stopping them from doing anything; if the churches voluntarily want to give up their tax-exempt status, they're free to do that.

The First Amendment secures INDIVIDUAL right to free speech. The first 10 Amendments, "The Bill Of Rights", all protect INDIVIDUAL rights. A church is not a individual. SO ya, Tax both the NOW and The church.

"Under the Internal Revenue Code, all section 501(c)(3) organizations are absolutely prohibited from directly or indirectly participating in, or intervening in, any political campaign on behalf of (or in opposition to) any candidate for elective public office." #3 | Posted by Danforth

Thanks for the post. Does this mean the churches where the Obama and the Clintons campaign should lose their tax exemptions? How about Rev Sharpton and Rev Jackson?

"the churches where the Obama and the Clintons campaign should lose their tax exemptions? How about Rev Sharpton and Rev Jackson?"

If they are preaching there, no.

If they are using the pulpit to say "vote for me", yes.

Campaigns fall under different rules, obviously. And unlike donations to churches and other tax-exempt organizations, donations to your favorite candidate aren't tax-deductible.

Whereas all you have to do is scientifically prove the Resurrection. Have at it.#20 | Posted by Danforth at 2008-09-29 04:30 PM | Reply

Well, Danforth, you evidently don't understand evidentiary rules.

The Resurrection can only be shown true or false by the rules of historical evidence or the rules of legal evidence.

And if you're interested, you can look it up--it's well studied.

You've never taken anything on the subject posted here seriously, so understand if I don't do your homework for you.

But rest assured, if Jesus did bodily raise from the dead, Christianity is O-V-E-R!
The Bible even says so.

"Your excerpt validifies my point regarding the similarities between religious groups and groups like AARP - what's good for the goose and all that."

Jeff :

This isn't really a good comparison. AARP is a more complex organization than the typical church and I don't beleive that they are a 501(c)(3), though I may be wrong. The parent organization is an advocacy group; there is a charitable foundation as well as a for profit business. Each of these organizations are under the AARP umbrella but seperate legal entities.

A church can advocate as much as they want, there is no restriction on their speech at all. In order to qualify for tax exempt status, which is special, they have to follow certain rules. If they don't want to follow the rules, they'll pay taxes. The rules are laid out for anyone to see and they shouldn't be crying foul when they know them right up front. Tax the churches for all I care, frankly.


To refute the bodily resurrection all you need to look at is that they may have found Jesus's bone box (ossuary).Notice I said may because I cannot be sure but a professor of mathematics figures it is 600 to 1 to be his box and tomb.Andrey Feuerverger I think is his name. Call him.#24 | Posted by rosemountbomber at 2008-09-29 09:46 PM | Reply

That was already refuted by the archaeology community. Keep trying and us Christians will close up shop.

It'd be waaaaay more effective than the lions.

Even more effectove than limiting churches' political speech by taking away their 501c3 status.

I know Dan knows the difference between yelling fire in a theatre and talking politics from the pulpit.

Johnson put in the ban while in the Senate--

Congress shall not abridge the freedom of speech.

The church is made up of individuals--and they are being prosecuted by the gov't to keep quiet with IRS penalties.

The ban was illegal at the time and to this day.

"you can look it up--it's well studied."

Yet never actually proven.

"The Bible even says so."

That's no proof. The Bible also says the sun revolves around the Earth.

"The church is made up of individuals"

Not under IRS code.

And individuals aren't tax-exempt.

Hey Murphy You get doorknobs at the Hardware store or if it an antique doorknob chances are Your reclaimed hardware and lumber stores would have some. What kind are You looking for??

Larry

There is no Separation of church and state. What the first amendment guarantees is that the State will not interfere in the affairs of the church. This provision was passed to protect the church from state discrimination or persecution, knowing full well how Britain imposes State religion on the people --- and jailed nonconformists, one famous example being John Bunyan who went to jail for preaching without license from the Anglican Church. He wrote the first English novel in history: The Pilgrim's Progress.

(Cervantes wrote his Spanish novel by over 50 years ahead: Don Quixote)

Yeah Rose, Jesus was resurected right after Zeus lost his wrestling match with Buddha and had to give his daughter Shiva to Allah so that the Rah was appeased and didn't send Sobek to eat them all. LM#35 | Posted by Liberal_Mongrel at 2008-09-29 10:06 PM | Reply

Are there no liberal mongrel's out there who learned critical thinking IN SPITE of their public school educations?

Jesus lived on earth (a verifiable historical fact), His tomb is empty (a verifiable historical fact), the Buddha and Mohammed lived and died and are still in their tombs (verifiable historical facts), Zeus/Shiva/Allah/Ra/the Easter Bunny/the Tooth Fairy are all mythical non-historical figures of literature and/or culture and/or religion.

I'm not talking about the "religious" views, I'm talking about *historical* ones.

"they are being prosecuted by the gov't to keep quiet with IRS penalties."

Not at all. At this point, they are qualifying for tax-exempt status, for which there are certain requirements. They can say anything they want, and in doing so, can choose to forgo their tax-exempt status. The IRS isn't restricting anything: the churches are free to keep their tax-exempt status, or give it up.

Let them say what they want.

And then enforce the IRS tax code.

In the long run, I wish more and more churches would do this...McCain's going to lose anyway, and with all the new tax revenues I see a silver lining: lower record deficits.

Jesus lived on earth (a verifiable historical fact)

Oh, bullshit. Prove it.

Oh wait, you can't.

No body.

No proof.

Dipshit.

"Jesus lived on earth (a verifiable historical fact), His tomb is empty (a verifiable historical fact),"

Assuming those two things are fact, are you actually proffering the theory that's sufficient proof?!?

Murphy-open your eyes...

IT'S NOT A BAN! They can say whatever they want-promote whoever they want-involve themselves in the Political process all they want.

But-If they do-they lose their tax exempt status.
Mo one is stopping them from saying anything-but if they want tax-exempt status-they have to follow the rules.

"the business of the church" nailed it (unintentionally), a church it a business, it exists to pay its employees a wage, the tax-exempt stuff is silly. I have no problem with a small town church with a couple of hundred participants tithing to pay their preacher. How about the mega-churches, where the "pastors" are making a bazillion dollars a year and are "tax exempt" while driving around in limos, living in mansions while the little old lady is sending almost her entire SS check on the hope that said "preacher" will pray for her situation to get better. What total and utter bullshit that is. They are no better than snake oil salesmen (who are taxed) or at best psychologists (who are also taxed).

Hey Murphy You get doorknobs at the Hardware store or if it an antique doorknob chances are Your reclaimed hardware and lumber stores would have some. What kind are You looking for??

Larry

I'm not talking about the "religious" views, I'm talking about *historical* ones.

#59 | Posted by kirk
Really? What's "historical" about them?
There are no public records from the period that mention him.
The only mention is in "Religious" writings, of one kind or another.
That's NOT "Historical"-it's "Religious".
Remember the difference

You're Welcome!

Holy Shihzuh, Danforth, ever actually READ the Bible?

The Bible never said the Sun goes around the earth--ignorant Dark Age Catholics did.

Check out Isaiah and 1 Corinthians 15:40-41. 614 BC it was said that the earth was round.

And do we really need to go into the difference between what's "evidence" and "proven"?

The Theory of Gravitation's not PROVEN yet, but nobody's arguing that.

Sounds like you're being intellectually lazy.

"Jesus lived on earth (a verifiable historical
fact),"

A letter written by a Christian Roman 200 some odd years after the fact isn't historical proof, no matter how much you want it to be. If that's historical proof of anything, then a thousand years from now people might be arguing about the life and historical doings of Luke Skywalker because someone who believes it's real wrote a letter about it.

FF for Larry--

-----------

TO Frank--


That's not the case, rather the ban stems from a little-known tax-reform amendment introduced by Lyndon Johnson in 1954."


That was the era of McCarthyism. Johnson, then a Democratic senator up for re-election in Texas, sponsored an amendment to a tax reform bill that prohibited tax-exempt organizations from participating in or intervening in political campaigns. Davidson says Johnson's goal at the time appears to have been to thwart a conservative, tax-exempt Texas foundation, Facts Forum. That group had become a key source of information for "Red Scare" activists and a source of support for right-wing candidates.


"Johnson was not trying to address any Constitutional issue, nor did he offer the amendment because of anything that churches had done," Davidson says. "There was no discussion of the amendment on the floor prior to passage, so we don't know whether any of the senators had any idea of the far-reaching affects it would have on churches."


www.purdue.edu


It was a ban Johnson slipped into a bill to quash the churches back home in TX.


It is unconstitutional and the IRS will lose.


Congress shall not abridge the freedom of speech. That is what Johnson did.


#33 | Posted by MURPHY at 20


IT WAS A BAN--look it up!

Murphy-they are free to say whatever they want-whenever they want-they just can't expect to keep their tax-exempt status if they don't follow the rules.

Yay insulting emails! Well, to the anonymous "benefactor" who obviously is reading here, I don't give a crap WHEN the "canonical" chapters of the new testament were written. So what? Star Wars: A New Hope claims that everything that happened during the series was a long time ago in a galaxy far away. If you can quote the Bible as proof that what the Bible says is true, then the opening crawl of every Star Wars movie is proof that THOSE events happened, also.

Proof comes from independent, nonbiased sources that can be verified through research by a majority of nonbiased experts as reasonably valid.

"ever actually READ the Bible"

Yes. The first book of Genesis mistakenly calls the moon a light, when it's not: it's a reflector of light.

I can tell that those who questioned the historicity of Jesus are deficient in historical knowledge.

So instead of getting irritated, I pity them for the ignorance.

"Jesus lived on earth (a verifiable historical
fact),"

A letter written by a Christian Roman 200 some odd years after the fact isn't historical proof, no matter how much you want it to be. If that's historical proof of anything, then a thousand years from now people might be arguing about the life and historical doings of Luke Skywalker because someone who believes it's real wrote a letter about it.

#69 | Posted by soheifox

Excellent!
Now since we're debunking superstitious assumptions presented as historical fact, can we address the "land given to them by God" fraud?

It's way past time to confront that nonsense.

To the same "Benefactor":

Argue with me here, instead of sending me insulting emails. Somehow I don't think Jesus ever said, "Thou shalt call the disbelieving man filthy names in private rather then discuss with a civil tongue in the sight of other men."

And that's the last response you'll be getting, until you come out in the open.

WTF is wrong with people, anyway?

hey all this NOW criticism took me all of about 50 seconds to figure out. I clicked on 2 links after Hagbard_Celine post.

Contributions to NOW are not tax deductible because of our grassroots lobbying work. NOW is a non-profit, tax-exempt membership organization working politically and legislatively to advance women's rights.

www.now.org

Get Yer fax strate.

HIS tomb was empty you say. You mean the cave he was put in was found to be empty. How do you empty a cookie jar that was filled with cookies???

You REMOVE the cookies. Jesus' body was removed and later buried in a family tomb - The Talpiot plot. In those days they laid the body in the tomb for one year and then returned. By that time the meat had decayed off of the bones and the bones were then neatly put into an ossuary.

The family tomb and ossuaries were uncovered in the late 80's by the Jewish Antiquities Group and the bones removed and buried and the ossuaries kept in their museum.

Talk about verifiable facts, these are it. Reading what someone wrote, rewrote, translated, rewritten, judged at Council of Nicea in 325 -- those are hearsay.

"Jesus lived on earth (a verifiable historical fact), His tomb is empty (a verifiable historical fact), the Buddha and Mohammed lived and died and are still in their tombs (verifiable historical facts), Zeus/Shiva/Allah/Ra/the Easter Bunny/the Tooth Fairy are all mythical non-historical figures of literature and/or culture and/or religion. "

Again one religous guy who immediately dispels all other religions. Fact, not one writing by any one who lived when teh so-called "Jesus" did, only after his death does he somehow pop up. Fact, ever heard of tomb raiders and robbers...or the possiblity that since he never existed you can't have a body. Fact, did your living buddha have a couple of extra apendages??

What do you mean Zeus is a myth, based on your religions logic for him he must exist. He was written about by many greeks, more than one greek person claims to have seen him, his tomb looks just like it was written......

"Zeus's Tomb:Unlike mainland Greeks, the Cretans believed that Zeus died and was resurrected annually. His "tomb" was said to be on Mount Juchtas just outside of Heraklion, where from the west the mountain looks like a giant man lying on his back. A Minoan peak sanctuary crowns the mountain and can be visited, though these days it has to share space with cell phone towers."

and guess what, there is no BODY......ooooohhhhh....now that is scientific.

Thnx for the early morning laugh

LM

(a verifiable historical fact)

[citation needed]

Right wing message to America: We'll obey the laws we choose to obey.

Soheifox and LeeAtwater,

You seriously need to get your intellectual shit together. There is *plenty* of historical evidence Jesus lived, you're apparently too lazy or have too much of an ulterior motive for denying the obvious.

Even atheists/freethinkers who study history acknowledge it.

Try to read something historical *one time* and take a stroll outta the blogsphere once in awhile.

Look it up and come back and admit how wrong you were based on *historical* evidence.

Don't listen to the lies coming from Sohe. He once tried to claim I was sending him emails too.

His tomb is empty (a verifiable historical fact.

#59 | Posted by kirk

So is mine. Doesn't make me the son of god.

Again, liberal mongrel, every one of your half-ass ideas has been researched, hundreds of times. And the historical consensus is that Jesus did live, die and raise from the dead.

*Do you get* that Christianity would *cease to exist* if what you posited were true?

You really were a product of public schooling weren't you?

There's hope, though. Even in my public schooling I learned critical thinking!

"And the historical consensus is that Jesus did live, die and raise from the dead."

So "the historical consensus" is that there's a life after death?

Then what's all the fuss about?

LOL

Murphy, no one has a constitutional right to tax exempt status - if a church wants to be tax exempt then it can't preach politics. It isn't a violation of the First Amendment, it is a trade off for tax exempt status. A church still has the right to preach politics, they just don't receive tax exempt status.

Secular historian Will Durant: "The Christian evidence for Christ begins with the letters ascribed to Saint Paul....No one has questioned the existence of Paul, or his repeated meetings with Peter, James, and John; and Paul enviously admits that these men had known Christ in his flesh. . . That a few simple men should in one generation have invented so powerful and appealing a personality, so loft an ethic and so inspiring a vision of human brotherhood, would be a miracle far more incredible than any recorded in the Gospel." (Ceasar and Christ, volume 3 of Story of Civilization)

Graham Stanton of Cambridge: "Today, nearly all historians, whether Christians or not, accept that Jesus existed and that the gospels contain plenty of valuable evidence which has to be weighed and assessed critically. There is general agreement that, with the possible exception of Paul, we know far more about Jesus of Nazareth than about any first or second century Jewish or pagan religious teacher."

N.T. Wright: "It is quite difficult to know where to start, because actually the evidence for Jesus is so massive that, as a historian, I want to say we have got almost as much good evidence for Jesus as for anyone in the ancient world....the evidence fits so well with what we know of the Judaism of the period....that I think there are hardly any historians today, in fact I don't know of any historians today who doubt the existence of Jesus....No Jewish, Christian, atheist, or agnostic scholars have ever taken that [proposition] seriously since. It is quite clear that in fact Jesus is a very, very well documented character of real history. .

So is mine. Doesn't make me the son of god.

#84 | Posted by 726

Whew, thank goodness. That was a close one. Thought for a second I was going to have to become a scientologist.

Kirk, don't waste your time. Go bang your head on a wall - it will hurt less than try to talk with 726, LIP, ZAT or the like. It is much easier for them to not answer to someone greater than themselves.

"Don't listen to the lies coming from Sohe. He once tried to claim I was sending him emails too."

Rastaninja, no one accused YOU of doing that...why on earth would you defend yourself from something you (supposedly) didn't do?!?

Well, you know what they say: throw a rock at a pack of dogs, the one that yelps is the one who got hit.

For the record, Rastaninja/Jacksss/Messiah has a history of online vandal behavior. By his own admission, "hurting" someone is "the greatest feeling" in his world.

#89 | Posted by ELCIDCE90

:-)

Kirk, what you said was, "And the historical consensus is that Jesus did live, die and raise from the dead."

You said there's a "historical consensus"---among historians, presumably---that Jesus rose up from the dead.

Gotta link?

I'm still LOL.

Kirk, .... Go bang your head on a wall

I concur.

Rosemountbomber,

Except for the Roman guards and the Roman seal over the tomb.

But you (and those posting already historically and archaeologically refuted theories) can look it up yourself and discover that, if you're not intellectually lazy and are willing to do your homework.

It's almost like trying to convince a KKK member that blacks aren't monkeys--they refuse to even *consider* the evidence and simply keep on believing whatever it is they want to.

Good day, y'all.

"they refuse to even *consider* the evidence "

What "evidence?"


[citation needed]

"someone greater than themselves."

Posted by ELCIDCE90

Sorry goober, your imaginary friend still doesn't exist.

"And the historical consensus is that Jesus did live, die and raise from the dead."

Lying is a mortal sin.

Hopefully each of these churches will have their tax-exempt status revoked and start paying taxes like all other organizations who don't meet the statutory criteria. If you are stupid enough to send evidence of your violation of US tax laws directly to the IRS, good luck with that. This issue has been litigated before with very little success.

"Except for the Roman guards and the Roman seal over the tomb."

Because there has never been a breach of guards in history...right?

It is much easier for them to not answer to someone greater than themselves.

#90 | Posted by ELCIDCE90

Like who, Elcid? Please, I would rather talk to my dog. At least he doesn't piss all over the truth because it is inconvenient to his preconcieved mythological ideals.

What is YOUR mudshark?

One small reason I am not a christian (or any other fantasy based religion) is that i wouldn't want to spend eternity with the assholes that pass for active christians.

Because there has never been a breach of guards in history...right?

#100 | Posted by Danforth at 2008-09-30 11:18 AM | Reply


Hahahahahaha!
Sincerely,
Sandy Burglar

I think before you call people names you should do some checking yourself. The stolen body theory did not begin with me. It has been around since the time of Christ. I think those people would be aware of the guards and the seal better than you and me.

Matthew 28:11-15 (New International Version)
New International Version (NIV)

Copyright 1973, 1978, 1984 by International Bible Society
[NIV at IBS] [International Bible Society] [NIV at Zondervan] [Zondervan]

The Guards' Report
11While the women were on their way, some of the guards went into the city and reported to the chief priests everything that had happened. 12When the chief priests had met with the elders and devised a plan, they gave the soldiers a large sum of money, 13telling them, "You are to say, 'His disciples came during the night and stole him away while we were asleep.' 14If this report gets to the governor, we will satisfy him and keep you out of trouble." 15So the soldiers took the money and did as they were instructed. And this story has been widely circulated among the Jews to this very day.


What really gets me is that the year is 2008 and by now people should realize that Man created God and not the other way around.

For something that's ACTUALLY on topic, I posted this yesterday.


There's another major difference between AARP and a preacher using his pulpit to announce favor for a candidate.


AARP long ago established branches of the organization that perform political consultancy, supported candidates and the orgs. preference for them comes from that side of the house.


Any church that wanted to do so could establish the same sort of thing. Absent that, a preacher pushing that message from the pulpit has every reason to expect a big tax bill next year.

#27 | Posted by Reagan58 at 2008-09-29 10:58 AM | Reply | Flag: Flag: (Choose)
FunnyNewsworthyOffensiveAbusiv
e

Because there has never been a breach of guards in history...right?

#100 | Posted by Danforth at 2008-09-30 11:18 AM | Reply | Flag:

You are arguing the wrong tack, Danforth. The only evidence thewy have of a "Roman Seal" being plkaced on any "Tomb of Jesus" is writing FROM THE BIBLE. Matthew, I believe.

Kirk, you are an idiot. Things written in the Bible do not prove that the things written in the Bible happen any more then the opening crawl in a Star Wars movie proves that Anakin Skywalker was the chosen one, a virgin birth, sent to bring balance to The Force.

Sorry goober, your imaginary friend still doesn't exist.

#97 | Posted by Zatoichi

Like I said Kirk - don't bother - Zat takes the easy way.

Like who, Elcid?

I believe that was a rhetorical question Lip? Obviously God. I have three undeniable examples of his existance: Son #1, #2 and #3. - the names have been changed to protect the innocent.

33 pastors can now fork over the taxes that they should now owe.

And yes, to make it clear. You call us itnelectually lazy for not doing research. And then, the "evidence" you put forward, is writings from the book that we are arguing is lying about it. Or, to put it more generically, you are using a book as the sole reference to say that what the book says is true. That means you transcend the bounds of normal discourse. That means you are an idiot.

And worse, from the tone of your postings, you are a pompous idiot. The hilarious part is when you compared those of us who seek proof of what a book says to KKK people, unable to be convinced despite any "proof"; when all the "proof" you have is the selfsame work of fiction. There's absolutely no historical reference to this "Jesus" person. A letter written by a Christian later _is not proof_.

If there was a heretic that presented such a threat to the Roman Empire, someone would have mentioned this sort of thing. As it was they crucified a whole PACK of Messiahs during the few hundred years around then. Problem is none of them were named "Jesus", and most of them didn't die before the end of the first day. The ACTUAL POINT of a crucifixion is that you get to suffer for days and days, thinking of what you did wrong. Even IF this Jesus person WERE crucified, odds are he wasn't whipped as much as Mel Gibson wants you to think he is. That's not the kind of torture Romans actually historically DID. Oh yeah and people were hung up on single beams. The crossforms stopped about two hundred years earlier and started again about a hundred years later.. Plus, again, they kept records about this. The Romans were downright anal about this sort of thing. They were pompous (like you) and thought that all of the world should behold their glory (like your religion), so there shoulda been SOME mention SOMEWHERE.

There's near to zero evidence that this book is telling the truth. There's overwhelming evidence that there's so many holes in the book's story that it was likely written later by people who had no idea what life was actually like back then. Oh and there IS historical proof that this was true, and furthermore, they VOTED on which books to include in the "New Testament". See, Emperor Constantine? A Christian Roman Emperor? Yeah he kept explicit records. It's how we know about the Councils of Nicea and Trent.

See, your dissenters have the overwhelming forces of actual verifiable history to prove actual verifiable history. What do you have as proof of the Bible's "actual verifiable history"? Stuff written in the Bible.

Who is "unable to accept proof"?

Things written in the Bible do not prove that the things written in the Bible happen any more then the opening crawl in a Star Wars movie proves that Anakin Skywalker was the chosen one, a virgin birth, sent to bring balance to The Force.
#105 | Posted by soheifox at 2008-09-30 12:06 PM

Next you'll be telling me there's no Tintin and that Winnie the Pooh didn't exist.

Obviously God.

Admit it. You don't know if there is a God. Be honest with yourself. You can't prove it. I know I can't, neither can you.

Things written in the Bible do not prove that the things written in the Bible happen any more then the opening crawl in a Star Wars movie proves that Anakin Skywalker was the chosen one, a virgin birth, sent to bring balance to The Force.
#105 | Posted by soheifox at 2008-09-30 12:06 PM

Next you'll be telling me there's no Tintin and that Winnie the Pooh didn't exist.
#109 | Posted by Doc_Sarvis

Pooh and Anakin aren't real?!!

I hate you guys.

"And the historical consensus is that Jesus did live, die and raise from the dead."

I challenge you to provide one single non-biblical contemporary reference to Jesus of Nazareth even existing, not to mention being resurrected. I am a former ministerial student in an evangelical church and can tell you that there is none. There is no neutral historical consensus other than that the story of the resurrection and other miracles are all myth.

There is more evidence for the existence of King Midas than there is for Jesus...Midas' remains have even been found and very clearly the story that his touch turned everything to gold is just a legend.

Much of the story of Jesus resembles other myths, such as the pagan god Tammuz, worshiped by some Israelites in northern Israel. Tammuz was born to the virgin Myrrha and called Adon ("Lord") by his followers. There are also elements of the sun god, Osiris, worshipped by the Egyptians.

Great piece on this topic here :

mama.indstate.edu

Much of the story of Jesus resembles other myths, such as the pagan god Tammuz, worshiped by some Israelites in northern Israel. Tammuz was born to the virgin Myrrha and called Adon ("Lord") by his followers. There are also elements of the sun god, Osiris, worshipped by the Egyptians.

#112 | Posted by DCinMA

The devil planted those myths so as to confuse us when Jesus finally arrived.

That trickster.

"The devil planted those myths"

The devil is a myth.
-The Great Kukulkan

www.huffingtonpost.com

Sounds like a sad attempt to create a wedge issue in time for the November election.

When all else fails, go for those clinging to their bibles.

The devil is a myth.

#114 | Posted by Zatoichi

and apon reading, a billion heads exploded all over the planet.

What a mess to clean up.

Mormons have been doing this for more than a century without any mention of it impacting their tax free business activities.

33 pastors can now fork over the taxes that they should now owe.

THIS!

The devil is a myth.

"Don't you know there aint no Devil that's God when's he's drunk"

~Tom Waits

Man created God in his own image.
Which is why He's so fucked up.

Be Well.


Ever wonder who created God? Or I suppose it would be more accurate to ask, how did God come into existence?

Oh, I forgot, you just have to believe.

The thing that Takeashitski and ElPud doesn't understand is that most 'non-believers' used to be believers who saw the whackery and knew it was wrong and even immoral.

They think if they keep reciting the same old tired lines, you will eventually see the truth and say, 'Wow, why didn't I see that before'. Just like the republican party in that respect.

Jesus said to pay your taxes if you owe them, so these guys really don't have a leg to stand on.

Mormons have been doing this for more than a century without any mention of it impacting their tax free business activities.
#117 | Posted by nutcase

3 things: The law that prohibits this is only 54 years old, therefore "doing this for more than a century" doesn't add to your argument.

Also, the Mormons don't support any political candidate. Issues, yes (It think they were against the ERA and the current gay marriage debate in CA) but not candidates. The law only prohibits campaigning for or against candidates, not issues.

"Under the Internal Revenue Code, all section 501(c)(3) organizations are absolutely prohibited from directly or indirectly participating in, or intervening in, any political campaign on behalf of (or in opposition to) any candidate for elective public office" (Thanks Danforth).

Third, the Mormon church reaffirms its neutrality when it comes to the candidates. You can bet the Mormons won't be amongst the 33 churches that break the law on Sunday.

newsroom.lds.org

I'm sure the Devil is happy to hear that 'the devil is a myth'.

"Ever wonder who created God? Or I suppose it would be more accurate to ask, how did God come into existence?"

#119 | Posted by Lipzoidial

I have wondered that. Some would say that God has no beginning or end, or that God is the beginning and the end.

I've also wondered where whatever preceded the Big Bang came from, whether or not that had a beginning, or an end.