Um, these same tests were done already.

All failures. It's your brain on lack of O2.

"If no one sees the pictures, that's evidence of failure...."

Anyone catch the fallacy here the scientist doesn't?

"It's your brain on lack of O2...."

However, attempting to examine the idea that dead people have access to new information, as has been reported, is fascinating.

"It shows these experiences are illusions are false memories...."

Perhaps they are. However, these bozos have embedded so many methodological errors into their experiment they won't be the ones to find out.

Zed

Will you have a body in heaven?

What happened to Jesus's body?

What will you do in heaven for eternity?

The bible calls Heaven the firmament, and says there are waters above the firmament and waters below the firmament, and that Heaven is in the midst of the waters.

What does that mean to you?

What will you do in heaven for eternity?

Good question.

Talking heads thought about it...

Everyone is trying to get to the bar.
The name of the bar, the bar is called heaven.
The band in heaven plays my favorite song.
They play it once again, they play it all night long.

Heaven is a place where nothing ever happens.
Heaven is a place where nothing ever happens.

There is a party, everyone is there.
Everyone will leave at exactly the same time.
Its hard to imagine that nothing at all
Could be so exciting, and so much fun.

Heaven is a place where nothing ever happens.

Based on Scripture, which is the only way to answer you---

1) You are spirit after you die. What that looks like is not specified.

2)What happened to Jesus' body? He returned to the Father, Heaven that is. To the Disciples it looked like he was ascending through the atmosphere.

3)What will you do in Heaven for an eternity? Not specified, although Jesus implied Heaven was a place of enormous variety.

Heaven is a reality where the rules are different than from this reality. It's no easier to imagine that than to imagine what ultraviolet looks like to a bee.

Zed

What about the waters?

Why would Jesus take his body to Heaven?

Wouldn't he be the only one to have a body?

If he got a Heavenly body when he got to Heaven--why not leave his old body here like everybody else?

Zed

Enormous variety. Any specifics?

Will you have a body in heaven?

Not in the sense which we think of as a human body.

You will have a soul. What "form" your soul will take I do not know.

BOB---God gets to do what He wants. That means there are no paradoxes, real or apparent, unless He allows them.

You were asking about Heaven....

Bob---Religous people also don't get it sometimes. You have people that insist on burial because Jesus won't be able to find them at the Second Coming if they are cremated.

None of this stuff do you or they have to worry about. It's covered.

Zed

What about the waters.

Zed

Enormous variety. Any specifics?

#10 | Posted by Buffalo_Bob at 2008-09-20 05:43 PM

72 sluts or 72 virgins. your choice.

BBob,
Here are my opinions (and only that):

If he got a Heavenly body when he got to Heaven--why not leave his old body here like everybody else?

#9 | Posted by Buffalo_Bob

It was probably because he's not like everybody else--he's the Son of God. Maybe he took his body with him to further point out that he wasn't just an ordinary guy. Just like how he rose from the dead after 3 days.

Wouldn't he be the only one to have a body?

Just because he left the earth with his body does not mean he had to continue to use it once he got to heaven. The creator of the universe doesn't have those sort of limits.

What about the waters.

Heaven is a spiritual existence which differs greatly from this physical one. The "atmosphere" of the spiritual world is probably greatly different than anything we know about. As such, there was no ancient Hebrew world to describe it and Moses used the closest word available to him, water.

No one knows what really happens.....even those who say they do....don't.

Frosty

I doubt that Jesus would need his body to show other people in heaven how special he was. The question was--why take it to heaven if he would just discard it once there anyway?

The "waters" are in the bible. Moses didn't write the bible according to Christians. God told Moses what to write according to Christians. Are you saying God doesn't know the word "water" or is too stupid to come up with the correct description?

It is my contention that believers in the bible are one of two types of people. Those who ignore any type of tough question (ZED), and those who change the words of the bible when they don't conform to their thinking (You).

The reality of Genesis is that the story of Genesis is stolen from older discarded religions. The original story is in a book called the Enuma Elish. As is the story of Adam and Eve and the Garden of Eden.

The original story makes more sense. Genesis is almost word for word from the old religion. Except of course there were many Gods in the original story. That's why in Gen 3:22 it says

3:22 And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever:

What US is he referring to? In the original he was talking to the other gods--in the Bible, he is supposed to be the only God around---yet God says they are many--US. Who was he talking to?

"Those who ignore any tough question..."

I haven't heard you pose one. I do ignore silly or dull questions.

In fact, I've rarely seen a hard question about religion posted here. It's mostly a variation on a Maher comedy routine.

But if you want me to interpret the Scripture you appear so interested in, here's my shot---

"Firmament" refers to something tangible. "Waters" refers to spirit, as it often does in the Bible. Heaven is therefore a real place encased by spirit, perhaps God Himself.

Now, that wasn't hard at all. Uninteresting, but not hard.

But if you want me to interpret the Scripture you appear so interested in, here's my shot---

"Firmament" refers to something tangible. "Waters" refers to spirit, as it often does in the Bible. Heaven is therefore a real place encased by spirit, perhaps God Himself.

Zed,

I would disagree. It is true that water is a powerful image in biblical literature--as in all literature. It can be the source of life, death, cleansing depending upon the context of its use.

Here in the creation myths, the waters of the firmament are meant to symbolize or represent chaos.

Almost all creations myths move from scenes of disorder to order. This is done in some myths through battle--Marduk and Taimat in the Enuma Elish. Or through a sexual act-Eurynome and Ophion in some ancient Greek texts. In all some divine force orders chaos.

In Hebrew scripture, Yahweh does this purposefully and through language. There is no struggle and the universe as it emerges from chaos responds immediately to His command. God moving on the face of the waters is the divine force moving upon the primordial chaos. The firmament which he creates in the midst of the waters is the intrusion of His order upon this chaos.

The rest of the first creation story is about order created and constructed along a series of dualities or binary structures--light/darkness, land/water, vegetative life/animal life and final human life--male and female.

This notion of water as chaos gets revisited again later in Genesis with Noah. God calling about the waters of the firmament is in a sense God engaging in a "do over" going back a few steps. Notice after Noah survives the flood, God repeats the commandments earlier in Genesis.

And God blessed Noah and his sons, and said unto them, Be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth. And the fear of you and the dread of you shall be upon every beast of the . . .

Notice, of course, that humankind repeats their mistake again with the Tower of Babel--human beings trying to become like God--in an attempt to reach heaven. It is humanities second fall through pride.

By the way most apocalyptic myths move the opposite--order to disorder.

Human level--great wars, embracing of evil practices.

Earthly level--earthquakes, famines, floods, etc.

Cosmic level--the stars fall from the sky, moon is uprooted etc.

Interesting and fascinating stuff.

By the way, enjoy the cat and mouse game with BB. The theme of the movie "War Games" applies to debates with him.

Cheers

I've got no use for the 72 virgins. I'll take 72 guitars, thank you. That's more than enough variety for me.

"The bible calls Heaven the firmament, and says there are waters above the firmament and waters below the firmament, and that Heaven is in the midst of the waters."

Great observation!

ASTROLOGY AND MUSIC

We have all been parts of Adam,
We have heard those melodies in Paradise.
Although the Water and Earth of our bodies
have caused a doubt to fall on us,
Something of those melodies comes back
to haunt our memory. - Rumi

I've got no use for the 72 virgins. I'll take 72 guitars, thank you. That's more than enough variety for me.

#22 | Posted by dutch46

lol

Well, here's "Two Virgins with Two Guitars"

Zed

It is your contention that God meant Spirit when he said Waters---is that your point? Where else in the bible does God refer to water as spirit as you claim?

So your claim is that Heaven is a real place in three dimensions? Interesting--I never heard that concept before.

But let's get back to some of the questions you dodged.

What will you do in heaven for eternity?

What happened to Jesus's body after it ascended to Heaven? If he's not still using it, what happened to it? If he didn't need it, why take it with him?

"What will you do in heaven for eternity?"

BB

here's some help, Zed:>)

Experiencing Hypnotic Regression
to the Life Between Lives

Hypnotic Regression to Life-Between-Lives (LBL) requires deep trance work and sessions last 3 1/2 to 4 hours. Most individuals are fully capable of the necessary level of trance. You may be surprised how quickly your session is completed; when in trance, time becomes very elastic and non-linear. You may choose to read Dr. Newton's books in advance of your session, but this is not required.

So interesting how a series of comments on science quickly slid into religion.

Check, please!

Check, please!

#27 | Posted by NumberSix

why, you afraid of death?

BOB----

Heaven is a real place, of course. What properties it has save eternity the Bible says little about. There will be no pain and we will meet people we know. Sounds pretty good to me.

What will you do in heaven? That may be one of the concepts that don't apply in there, having to spend time. My guess? Every day is like you just got there.

"Heaven is a real place ... we will meet people we know. Sounds pretty good to me. What will you do in heaven?"

Most people I know will not be in heaven, Zed, and it won't be heaven for me if I meet them there. I've long asked what marines guarding heaven's streets guard them from, and how you can kill people there. Were the streets of heaven always paved with gold? If not, was it heaven for the gold miners? Is it heaven for the 72 extra virgins who await Moose-lim martyrs? What will *I* do there, Zed? Be bored stiff. herm

Every day is like you just got there.

#29 | Posted by Zed at 2008-09-21 07:44 PM | Reply

Groundhog Day. No thanks.

BBob, (sry for the delay, I'm almost in Tosser's time zone right now)

It is my contention that believers in the bible are one of two types of people. Those who ignore any type of tough question (ZED), and those who change the words of the bible when they don't conform to their thinking (You).

That's not the case here as seen in my next point.

The "waters" are in the bible. Moses didn't write the bible according to Christians. God told Moses what to write according to Christians. Are you saying God doesn't know the word "water" or is too stupid to come up with the correct description?

I think God was willing to let Moses write using the current language of the time. Even if he did come up with a different word to accurately describe the nature of heaven, the word would still be meaningless to people as we have nothing to compare it to (something like telling a blind man his shirt is red).

The reality of Genesis is that the story of Genesis is stolen from older discarded religions. The original story is in a book called the Enuma Elish.

Its similarity is remarkable. That doesn't mean it had to be stolen. It's also possible that God told Adam and Eve or their early descendants the creation story which was passed down orally from generation to generation as writing hadn't been developed yet. As the Babylonian nation developed from some of their descendants they could have modified the story to match their new beliefs.

What US is he referring to?

I see two possibilities. One is that he's talking to his angels who did know the difference between good and evil. The other possibility is the "us" refers to the trinity--where one God is composed of three parts: Father, Son, and Holy Ghost. (Think of it like body parts, you have a distinct hand, head, and foot but are still one person.)

What will you do in heaven for eternity?

This question has a three dimensional existence perspective to it. Time may be completely different or non-existent in Heaven. But my answer to this question would be, "Whatever God tells me to do."

Something else to keep in mind is God did not intend Genesis to be a science textbook. It mostly gave the Jewish nation their history and let them know that God was the creator of everything. Actually BBob, I enjoy more difficult questions. It forces me to dig deeper into my faith and I end up having a stronger one because of it.

I've never heard about those marines, herm. Scripture?

Religous people also don't get it sometimes.

couldnt have put it better myself.

There will be no pain

why not, what is so wrong with pain?

without pain do you know what pleasure is?

ying and yang, the duality of things,

seems like a pretty boring place to be

"There will be no pain "

There will be no nothing at all.

There, fixed.

Or how about ...

There will be a beer volcano.

"There will be nothing at all...."

Most people already live their life that way. Know anyone like that?

"Without pain do you know what pleasure is....?"

As long as you think of Heaven as being sort of like a trip to Cabo, you won't get it.

Zed,

As long as you think of Heaven as being sort of like a trip to Cabo, you won't get it.

That may be your second-most salient post on this blog.

Your most salient was along these lines:

A DR-atheist was ripping religion because it's teachings 'caused' one to be virtuous - it wasn't a 'conscious' choice. Your reply (this was over 3 years ago) was perfect:

"It matters how you get there?"

I disagree with you much of the time, but on this subject you really nail it IMO.

JEFF---You keep my posts from three years ago? Ye gods. But thanks for the feedback.

What will you do in heaven for eternity?

It says a great deal about human nature and the human experience that we can comprehend eternal suffering more than we can comprehend eternal joy.

That being said most descriptions of heaven--either ones glorifying its bliss or decrying its tedium--fail miserably because they are an attempt to explain something beyond any human experience in terms that can only be gathered from human experience.

I do not know what heaven will be like, but I imagine the first thing we need to throw out is the notion of time itself. The word eternity itself denotes a passage of time. God exists above and beyond time itself in what we can attempt to comprehend as the "eternal present." God does not "see" the future and "remember" the past. All events in the history of the universe occur simultaneously for God. He is simultaneously the alpha and the omega.

When we return to God we participate in his transcendent experience of time and place.

Heaven, thus, cannot be boring or tedious or filled with us planning actions and carrying them out. Such notions all require a sense of time which we will have transcended as God does.

Descriptions of heaven as a city are merely convenient metaphors by which we have attempted to comprehend what is incomprehensible. They are allegories and parables--that helps us get to the truth thought they are not the literal truth themselves.

Keep in mind that no matter how intelligent and sophisticated we get, we are always mere children in our knowledge, understanding and appreciation of the physical and spiritual universe we inhabit. We will always need eternal, perfect truths to be translated into imperfect language according to terms that make sense to our limited experience and intelligence. (This is what myth--such as Genesis is about--BTW)

Cheers

According to the story, humans were created to replace the third of heaven that rebelled. As the term "angel" means messenger, one imagines running celestial errands throughout the cosmos.

people who have never been there relying on the words of other people who have never been there speaking with disdain for people who disagree with them.

classic.

I disagree with you much of the time, but on this subject you really nail it IMO.

yes because you too steep yourself in the arrogance of self righteousness.

Grendel,

You are a condescending and insouciant prick.

Sincerely,

Boyd aka BetelG

PS - That was an exceptional post,

Sincerely, JeffJ.

"The words of people who have never been there...."

Christ said He had been. And He said if it were not all true He would have warned us.

indirect evidence does not apply.

christ didnt say it, people SAID christ said that.

sorry please try again

yes because you too steep yourself in the arrogance of self righteousness.

You couldn't be more wrong, Truthhurts.

I don't pretend to have all of life's answers.
I don't attempt to project my beliefs NEARLY to the degree that many atheists attempt to project their Dis-beliefs.

At the end of the day, the core teachings of Christiantiy - acceptance, tolerance, forgiveness, selflessness, etc - are so accepted because they are such universal truths.

You are free to not-believe. However, you do yourself a considerable disservice by trashing the beliefs of others, particularly when the core of said beliefs are admirable attributes - mentioned above.

Sorry, I don't buy heaven. Nothing says "eternal joy" to me like knowing grandpa is melting for eternity because he was an atheist.

Could anyone else enjoy themselves when they realize a family member they loved is burning forever below? I couldn't.

so grendel like birth going to heaven is a choice made for me by god putting me into something beyond my powers to conceive or understand until I am in it.

I am gods plaything.

Yes, it takes a really shitty person to trash anothers willingness to progress toward God like behavior.

I don't pretend to have all of life's answers.

TH: just the important ones, right? hahaha

I don't attempt to project my beliefs NEARLY to the degree that many atheists attempt to project their Dis-beliefs.

TH: nope just agreeing that the likes of me wont find heaven, well that is all non-projection and all....

At the end of the day, the core teachings of Christiantiy - acceptance, tolerance, forgiveness, selflessness, etc - are so accepted because they are such universal truths.

TH:christianity teaches acceptance and tolerance? well as long as you do what you are told you are accepted and tolerated. Dont sin or as the heaven nazi would say "NO HEAVEN FOR YOU!"

Alex,

Sorry, I don't buy heaven. Nothing says "eternal joy" to me like knowing grandpa is melting for eternity because he was an atheist.

Could anyone else enjoy themselves when they realize a family member they loved is burning forever below? I couldn't.

As a born and raised Catholic, your 2-sentence summation is not congruent with Catholic teachings.

The path to heaven is one of belief, coupled with a virtuous life and atoned-for sin.

Ever hear of the term, "purgatory"?

According to Catholic teachings, good and virtuous people who haven't been baptised and were strictly adherent to the Catholic Faith are NOT relegated to a lake of fire upon death.

However, you do yourself a considerable disservice by trashing the beliefs of others, particularly when the core of said beliefs are admirable attributes - mentioned above

the angry side of me would say that it is the duty of thinking people to condemn paganism, to abhor and decry those who believe they have answers, when they dont, especially when their actions impact society.

but fortunately I am not always so angry

Yes, it takes a really shitty person to trash anothers willingness to progress toward God like behavior.

#51 | Posted by moneywar

I am confident that Righto would award you his much-coveted 'Moment of Clarity Award' for this comment, were he present.

According to what people, quite a few actually, said and wrote that Jesus said, there are such things as "spirit" (defined in your dictionary as "the animating force", spiritual laws (like natural laws), and eternal spiritual unisex bodies.

But, of course, in a world of quantum mechanics and string theory, a world where we don't really know what holds mass together and where the current theory of where gravity comes from is another dimension, such ideas of spirit are pretty ludicrous, eh?

Yes, it takes a really shitty person to trash anothers willingness to progress toward God like behavior.

#51 | Posted by moneywar

I am confident that Righto would award you his much-coveted 'Moment of Clarity Award' for this comment, were he present.

#55 | Posted by JeffJ at

As long as you think of Heaven as being sort of like a trip to Cabo, you won't get it.

you mean this type of trashing?

"Christ didn't say that; people said Christ said that....."

I'd just like to point out that if you only credit things according to your direct experience of them you have an odd existence.

For starters, the amount of time you spend reading history must approach nil.

btw I want to expand on something that Zed acted so dismissively.

pain

pain is a useful and important part of consciousness. it is the tablet from which pleasure and happiness grow.

pain can be sweet, it helps us grow, it protects us.

there is something breathtaking about the pain of mourning. the sweet pain of loss.

I have always thought that pain is a gift from god, something that alows us to have knowledge, to improve, pain is close to desire-wanting is a from of pain.

pain allows empathy and sympathy for others.

"Pain is a useful and important part of consciousness...."

Even in this world, there are many varieties of consciousness.

Jeff- that's if you buy catholic teachings.

And purgatory sounds like such fun.

tis only hearsay zed, nothing more nothing less, same with history.

history is the past, it IS lost forever despite what your perception of the past may be.

You can only rely on what you read about something. That does not make that perception accurate or true.

IIRC the bible was written by a bunch of people 100 years AFTER jesus supposedly lived. that is a whole bunch of oral history taken from one of a number of interpretations.

you choose to believe the interpretations handed down hundreds of years later.

I choose to believe that we dont know what happens after death.

your only link to your belief is the words written by a group of people a 100 years after one person said something.

I believe that belief is not based on a firm foundation.

Alex,

And purgatory sounds like such fun.

It's a far-cry from the lake of fire, as Trighurts suggests.

Furthermore, time properly-spent in Purgatory results in Heaven.

TH,

The only person on this blog who seems fixated on validating beliefs is you.

And purgatory sounds like such fun.

#62 | Posted by Alexandrite

The pope got rid of purgatory (JPII or BennyXVI). I don't know if that means that it closed shop due to low enrollment or anything, but I do know its no longer a part of the catechism.

JJ

first I am not sure where you get the thing about a lake of fire.

second I posted a response about pain in heaven and told I wouldnt be getting into heaven. and i have the fixation?

TH,

Mea Culpa if I misconstrued you post.

np I have been know to do that once or twice

so grendel like birth going to heaven is a choice made for me by god putting me into something beyond my powers to conceive or understand until I am in it.

I am gods plaything.

Not at all. Boethius in his "Consolation of Philosophy" presents the notion of God's eternal presence as a way to reconcile our understanding of free will and divine providence.

God does not preordain our existence and salvation or damnation. To suggest that is to imply God acting according to time and under its constraints. We live our lives as a series of choices, exercising our free will, experiencing cause and effect as a result of them--yet all these choices, causes and effects, exist simultaneously from the divine perspective--that divine perspective is in sense the divine plan or will.

God's perspective from the eternal present transcends cause and effect--but all of our arguments and debates in regard to free will or predestination depend upon cause and effect. The question only makes sense from an earthly perspective not a divine one. In short, God does not choose, God does not decide. Those are human actions that exist in time as we wait for things to unfold or to cause things to unfold in particular way. For God there is no unfolding and therefore no need to choose or decide anything.

God doesn't order our lives according to His plan as much as how we choose to order our lives can't help but be a part of God's transcendent and all encompassing vision of all.

Cheers

Furthermore, time properly-spent in Purgatory results in Heaven.

Didn't the catholic church toss purgatory a few years back?

HC,

I attended a Catholic High School.

My freshman year - (1989) I had a VERY fundamentalist priest for my frosh-year theology class. He was, and is (he is still teaching, although he uses a motorized wheelchair now - he was 60-year's old when I was a Freshman) an icon for the school. I vividly remember him posing the following hypothetical question: "Can a non-Catholic attain Heaven?"

His reply (paraphrased):

"The path is more difficult, but attaining Heaven is ultimately about living a pious life, seeking forgiveness and generally contributing to the advancement of society's youth."

In short, one's actions were more important that the beliefs that one was introduced to .

Considering that most people's idea of Christianity is based on centuries of mistranslations, some of the worse interpretations imaginable, and the inevitable self-serving abuse of man-made religion, it's no wonder anyone reads it at all.

it's "a" wonder

ahhh the cake and eat it too defense

god and free will are mutually exclusive

if god knows all things he knows the choice you will make-otherwise he is impotent.

ahhh the cake and eat it too defense

god and free will are mutually exclusive

if god knows all things he knows the choice you will make-otherwise he is impotent.

If you take the time to read the post, you will see they are actually not. It is our inability to understand beyond the framework of time that creates a dilemma that simply does not exist.

If you like you can read people much more learned than me explain why they are not mutually exclusive.

sooooooooo we are incapable of understanding beyond the framework but we are capable of understanding that there is a god.

ok gotcha

they are mutually exclusive.

god acts beyond time and space, fine.

god created time and space.

god created me.

god created all things around me.

think of free will as the power to create. to make something that was not there, not created by other.

either the individual creates or god creates.

two cannot create the same thing-that is a law as sure as two objects cannot occuppy the same space at the same time.

well unless there is no law, no universality.

if so than there is no religon cause religon is based on the surety of a universal truth.

BETA: Np & N (p ⇒ q) /- Nq

from your article.

now see this is something every religous person should be able to get behind. belief as a sceintific equation!

cause if it is universal truth it must be quantifiable.

sooooooooo we are incapable of understanding beyond the framework but we are capable of understanding that there is a god.

Exactly,

We are capable of using reason to lead us to God. God, however, must provide the actual understanding by revealing himself in his creation.

This is why the foundation of religious belief is both faith and reason.

think of free will as the power to create. to make something that was not there, not created by other.

Free will is not the power to create. That power only reside with God. Our ability to will what we will does not create reality. We can only use our will to shape what reality presents to us. Human beings create nothing; we simply reshape what is given to us.

The rest of your argument, or what I can understand of it, thus falls apart.

Must go for awhile, but I will check in later if I can. It has been fun.

Cheers

I agree completely that we cannot comprehend god, that is indisputable. we are far to small, our perception too limited to understand god.

understanding that there is a god and understanding god are two different things. the first i believe is indisputable, we exist, therefore there must be a reason, even randomness is a reason. however, we are incapable of knowing why, and that is where religons fail.

create/shape you say potato I say potatoe.

If free will existed, the thoughts I think would be creation. the art I made would be creation, the children i father, the "love" i feel are creations. they are new, they are unique if free will exists I created them.

ex. would my children exist without my choice to father them? to perform the act? no. would they exist without "god" giving life to the sperm and egg connection? no

but what brought me to make my choice? the body that I have. the chemicals in my body, my genes, my environment, instinct, a whole bunch of things I did not create.

I did not choose to be born.

I am the sum of my experiences and my genetics. those things, like pavlov's dog with near infinite stimuli, lead to the decisions that a human perceives as free will.

Human beings create nothing; we simply reshape what is given to us.

than you have in a round about way agreed with my premise that mankind has no free will.

In short, one's actions were more important that the beliefs that one was introduced to .

#71 | Posted by JeffJ

I didn't say I agreed, just that I know what the catechism teaches.

You're talking the good samaritan principle.

Shit Pickle.

There are identical twins who make differing choices in life. DNA is an indicator, not a substitute for free will.

correct but you are also shaped by what happens to you and by the "decisions" others make

Yes, and you also have the free will to chose what you put in your next post.

no i dont I am the sum of my experiences.

Human beings create nothing; we simply reshape what is given to us.

than you have in a round about way agreed with my premise that mankind has no free will.

Stole a minute and can respond.

Not at all. We can use our will to reshape our lives, which has been given us. We cannot, however, create our lives from nothing. The way we reshape our lives contributes to God's overarching order because in God's mind all causes and effects are complete.

If free will existed, the thoughts I think would be creation. the art I made would be creation, the children i father, the "love" i feel are creations. they are new, they are unique if free will exists I created them.

ex. would my children exist without my choice to father them? to perform the act? no. would they exist without "god" giving life to the sperm and egg connection? no

Understood, perhaps the term "create" is the problem.

The questions of fate vs free will are timeless and has troubled human kind since we began to think.

We are probably not going to solve it here and now. Catch you all later--God willing, (ha ha.)

Cheers

Grendel says he knows Gods Mind. Grendel must be Great!

Great Grendel--knows Gods Mind.

Tell us Gods Mind Great Grendel!!!

no i dont I am the sum of my experiences.

In your case, that may be as far as it goes.

first I am not sure where you get the thing about a lake of fire.

#66 | Posted by truthhurts at 2008-09-22 10:04 AM | Reply |

It's in the Bible. I can understand why you didn't know where he got that thing.

Revelation

21:8 But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.

If you go to hell for lying, heaven is empty.

Truth,
You seem to assume we are nothing more than biological machines. Everything you mentioned does affect and influence us. However, we are also beings with a soul. I believe our choices are also influenced by our soul which has free will.

Without free will our life would seem pointless. I have trouble believing a loving God would condemn people to Hell for actions they had no choice in doing.

arent we?

what is your proof of this soul? soul or not that would not give you free will. if god knows it the choice is made, you have not the will to choose otherwise.

perhaps our lives are pointless.

god creates man and a certain percentage of those created will spend eternity in hell.

a loving god?

he made them, he knew they were going to hell (he knows all things, right?)

I did not choose to be born.

I did not choose to develope the way i did, to experience the things I did, things that formed the way I think, the outside influences so to speak. god made me and is responsible for my brain which values logic over faith.

sounds like a pretty sadistic bastard to me.

Could anyone else enjoy themselves when they realize a family member they loved is burning forever below? I couldn't.

#49 | Posted by Alexandrite at 2008-09-22 09:37 AM | Reply

What I don't understand is a person who would worship a God that is burning their parents on a Lake of Fire.

According to the Christian story, no one goes to hell for lying, or any other ethical matter. It is said that if a spiritual connection exists between a person and God, then upon death there is a translation to a spiritual body.

Most religions have this basis, with each trying to by some means eclipse their physical body to prepare for a spiritual one.

In Christianity, it is faith that makes the connection. In other religions, one must meditate and/or do physical penance, such as a Tibetan monk might travel on their knees.

I think the world needs a new religon.

Truth,
I have no more proof of a soul than I do of God. That's where faith comes in.

You're asking the same questions I've asked. "If God knows everything, he knows who'll go to Hell before they are born, right?" It's a hard question which I don't have an easy answer to.

This probably falls back to the question, "Why did God create us at all?" If we definitely knew that, they other questions would probably be easier. One theory I've heard is that he desires our love. A little like why people buy pets maybe. If that's the case, I believe free will exists because it's required for true love. You can program a robot to say he loves you, but it doesn't mean anything.

These are good philosophical questions we probably won't have good answers to until we go to Heaven and find out.

BBob,
You need to careful when quoting Revelation--it was written in apocalyptic prose which is highly symbolic. Like figures of speech, there are many parts of Revelation that should not be taken literally.

If you go to hell for lying, heaven is empty.

Christians believe that would be true except that Christ died to pay for all of our sins. If we accept him as Lord, all of our past sins are forgiven.

unfortunately odds are we wont go to heaven after we die, it will be nothingness, but will be aware of nothingnesss? I was nothing before I was born will i be nothing again? if so I guess I wont miss anything.

god cant need, can he? he is everything.

sorry but I am WAAAAYYYY to cynical.

If we accept him as Lord, all of our past sins are forgiven.

why that is mighty white of him.

What I don't understand is a person who would worship a God that is burning their parents on a Lake of Fire.

#93 | Posted by Buffalo_Bob

This goes back to the questions, "Why is does evil exist?" and "Why is there a Hell?" Evil exists because we have free will. Without an alternative to Good to choose, we'd have no choice at all. Hell exists because our choices do have consequences. Why would we choose to do the right thing when our eternal reward was guaranteed regardless?

Once again we are asking questions that we'll never have definitive answers to until we die.

"Why is there a Hell?"

What a pathetically stupid question.
There is no hell.
It's a myth for pathetically stupid people.

god made hell correct? god made evil, correct?

if god is only good, how could he make evil?

if evil is not from god he is not all powerful.

these things dont exist, sorry.

it is not a choice if the answer is written-a simple form of logic.

actually I think you should be looking for a system that more fits the facts.

god cant need, can he? he is everything.

sorry but I am WAAAAYYYY to cynical.

#98 | Posted by truthhurts

He doesn't need our love (he existed before we did), he just wants it.

It's OK to be cynical. If you don't learn to question your faith and those that claim to teach it, you become a lemming in a cult. I've looked at the evidence I've seen and believe the Bible is more likely to be true than not.

Did God create evil? The question assumes evil is a thing. I see evil as more of a condition. Evil can be seen as doing something un-Godlike. Evil is "created" when we choose to do something wrong. God allows evil to exist so we could have free will, however he doesn't create it. We do.

he just wants it

that means god is both selfish and sadistic.

he condemns a certain percentage of his creation to eternal damnation.

there is no evidence btw. none whatsoever. words written by man, that is it. There is faith, but faith is actually belief without evidence or so I have been told.

and since god wants something beyond his contol that seems to mean he is impotent as well.

and since god is impotent, cant we get into heaven around him?

he just wants it

that means god is both selfish and sadistic

I would hardly call creating us being selfish--the alternative would have been that we just never existed. One of the reasons people have children is to love and be loved by them. Does that make the parents selfish? I think the kids would rather be alive than not.

and since god wants something beyond his contol that seems to mean he is impotent as well

I don't think it's beyond his control--it's just his choice. He could be tyrant ruling over robots, but he decided he wanted us this way instead.

Yes, faith is required. I don't know why, but God seems to prefer we believe in him without 100% scientific certainty.

-There is faith, but faith is actually belief without evidence or so I have been told.

Faith is used as a verb. The ABC's of faith are; Action based upon Belief sustained by Confidence.

The reason you don't feel for the floor with your foot every morning before you step out of bed is that that action, stepping out of bed, is based upon the belief that there is a floor there, sustained by the confidence of it having been there every previous morning.

Some people have faith in God, many very confidently through experience.

Truth,
While I know in the end, we'll just have to "Agree to disagree," I do enjoy the intellectual banter.

bunch of random thoughts

earlier it was stated men cannot create, we can only manipulate reality.

actually god created evil or so sayeth Genesis, wasnt the tree of life all about the knowledge of good and evil?

your splitting hairs-condition vs thing; allowing vs creating

I would say your interpretation of evil does not jive with judeo-christian beliefs. Evil does not spring from a choice. it exists and one supposedly chooses between it and god. I may be oversimplifying there.

i for one have been wrestling with right and wrong. I dont believe in evil, I barely recognize the concept of sin. Right and wrong though, is a hard pill to swallow and perhaps represents my last bit of idealism, keeping me from true cynicism. pedophilia, rape, war all are wrong, they just have to be. finding things that are right is much more difficult. certainly these things exist as a matter of society-law and order and ethics-charity, love, empathy, etc.

right and wrong, beyond societal constraints(especially right as the motivation is so much less crisp), is so hard to define. Motivation of an act, it seems to me, is always in self interest, to please one self. helping others is done cause it makes us feel better, dontating our wealth to the needy, loving others is because of the feeling we generate in ourselves. It cannot be any other way-we feel good because we perceive our actions make others feel good.

wrong is easy to see, the results of anger and hate and malice and greed or any of the 7 sins. but what is right? what is true charity? what is love?

thanks frosty, hopefully I am not being too abusive, I often get nasty speaking religon and I certainly mean no disrespect to someone who honorably debates the topic.

Frosty

You say you aren't one of those who changes the Word of God---then you change the Word of God.

God said "WATERS" God means waters. No place else in the bible does God talk about water where he doesn't mean water. If God thinks we are too stupid to understand what he's talking about, that reflects on his creation, and why would he try to explain anything?

The reality of Genesis is that the story of Genesis is stolen from older discarded religions. The original story is in a book called the Enuma Elish.

Its similarity is remarkable. That doesn't mean it had to be stolen.

Yes, it does. The words Eden---Adam, The Garden---all of it--it is too near to be coincidence.

It's also possible that God told Adam and Eve or their early descendants the creation story which was passed down orally from generation to generation as writing hadn't been developed yet.

God didn't know how to write? When God gave Moses the Ten Commandments he wrote them with his finger. I think God could always write.

As the Babylonian nation developed from some of their descendants they could have modified the story to match their new beliefs.

The Babylonians credit the Sumerians for Enuma Elish. The Sumerians credit the "gods" for all they had. They said the gods told them the story--they said the gods were there as they wrote it.

What US is he referring to?

I see two possibilities. One is that he's talking to his angels who did know the difference between good and evil.

Angels hadn't been createed yet. Dogs know the difference between good and evil. The Tree of Knowledge was not a Tree that imparted the knowledge of Good and Evil. It wasn't the Tree of Knowledge--It was the Tree of Knowing. In the bible "knowing" means sex. The original stories had humans being a cross between the gods DNA and the local hominid---the cross breeding produced a Mule--an animal incapable of reproducing itself. The Enuma Elish says that the god Enki gave humans the ability to reproduce themselves. Enki and a female goddess were the creators of human in order to work for them. Enki's symbol was the snake, and his logo was two snakes entwined on a staff with the emblem of their planet at the top---a winged disc. The two snakes entwined have been interpreted by modern humans as indicating DNA. Enki's logo is still used by the medical profession today.

The other possibility is the "us" refers to the trinity--where one God is composed of three parts: Father, Son, and Holy Ghost. (Think of it like body parts, you have a distinct hand, head, and foot but are still one person.)

You don't think it weird that God would refer to himself as Us--meaning me, myself, and I? I think that shows a mental disorder--I reject that hypothesis.

Your other possibility where you think God is talking to the Holy Ghost and Jesus. This was long before Joseph and Mary and Bethlehem---who was Jesus's Mother? How could Jesus have been there? If Mary was Jesus's Earthly mother--who was Jesus's Celestial Mother?

You forgot one possiblity. Maybe the people who wrote Enuma Elish were telling the truth.

I would hardly call creating us being selfish--the alternative would have been that we just never existed. One of the reasons people have children is to love and be loved by them. Does that make the parents selfish? I think the kids would rather be alive than not.

TH:I think it is selfish if he creates US to love him. ok we get the reverse love thing, his love of us. i have to remind you that if we werent created we wouldnt be tortured with the knowledge of our limitations and for a certain percentage of us damned to all entirity for not choosing evil. I believe the motivations for having children is often selfish but I dont want to get sidetracked, humans and your god are apples and oranges. Man is finite, god is infinite.

I don't think it's beyond his control--it's just his choice. He could be tyrant ruling over robots, but he decided he wanted us this way instead.

Yes, faith is required. I don't know why, but God seems to prefer we believe in him without 100% scientific certainty.

TH: first you have to acknowledge we dont know what god wants, he does seem to want to see people suffer cause there is alot of that in the world. and i say it cruel to create something you know will be suffering for eternity. that seems beyond cruel in my book. that is one reason why I cant ascribe to the doctrine.

Frosty

Your 12:47 is full of you trying to change the words in the bible you don't like--as I stated.

Two types of people. Those who ignore parts of the bible they don't like---and those who change the words.

bb i firmly believe that most christians have little true understanding of exactly what they believe.

Truth,
While I respect Grendel, not all Christians agree on everything. The Bible is a hard book to fully understand--I don't think any person has understood it perfectly yet. I expect its complexity is due it needing to be a source of guidance for mankind for all of eternity. Anything like that would have to be complicated.

Right/wrong, good/evil, holy/sinful are all terms that people to use interchangeably. I would have trouble figuring out the nuances that separate them. What is right? Christ simplified it by saying (paraphrase on my part) 1. love God, and 2. love your neighbor (a.k.a. other people). With that attitude things like compassion, charity, kindness, and so forth naturally spring. If everyone acted liked they loved everyone else, the world would be better.

You also ask if anything is truly selfless since people seem to be "rewarded" by feeling good about doing a good deed? Maybe not, but people motivated by those pleasures do make the world a nicer place.

well I must say the golden rule is a pretty good way to guide your life.