It has been widely reported that 91-93% of Down Syndrome babies are aborted in America.

Is this acceptable to YOU?

There's more than a few Ayn Rand fans here, I know.

The notion that some prick thinks he knows when certain babies should be aborted and when others should not is sickening. It is a personal choice and should be left to a family and their doctor. It seems awfully un-libertarian to criticize others for exercising their reproductive rights, one way or the other.

It is a personal choice and should be left to a family and their doctor.

Well according to the Mukluk Messiah it is much better for the government to decide.

There's more than a few Ayn Rand fans here, I know.

#2 | Posted by kirk

how dare you associate ayn rand or all her fans with some POS scumbag like this. She would spend 2 hours telling him he was full of shit and the complete opposite of everything she believes.

I suppose all christians supported hitler since he was a christian, huh?

Is it possible for you to make a comment that is on-topic?

That was directed at 726.

It seems awfully un-libertarian to criticize others for exercising their reproductive rights, one way or the other.

#3 | Posted by JOE at 2008-09-19 10:04 AM

He's not libertarian--he is pro eugenics which is what Nazi Hitler professed --and practiced-- with the extermination of Jews and others they felt didn't contribute to the country.

This guy--it is hard to believe there are people walking around like him. It is almost beyond words.

-----------

726--

You missed Sarah's statements on abortion--she is not a threat to your santified laws of abortion.

Will McCain pick conservative judges--Yes--would Sarah--Yes.

Roe would only go back to the States--but folks will still be able to choose.

ahhhhhhhhh, the beauty of CHOICE! one side is for life and the other for death.

pro-choice is about one thing and one thing only - the choice to take the life of another without repercussions. well, until much later in life as studies have shown.

**** pro-choice is about one thing and one thing only - the choice to take the life of another ....
....Posted by nanc *****

......

......and pro-life is about extending forced-birth laws to cover people who do not share those beliefs.......

......you want to give birth...fine...you give birth......but dont fuck with our freedoms......you Anti-American fascist......Roe vs Wade is the law of the land......Love it or Leave it.......

pro-choice is about one thing and one thing only

Well, there is that awful coat-hanger business.

Is it possible for you to make a comment that is on-topic?

Save your faux outrage Mr. Deflector.

Mongoloid he was a mongoloid, one chromosone too many.
Mongoloid he was a mongoloid and it determined what he would be.

-DEVO

I'm pro choice.

This was Sara's choice and is absolutely none of my business.

Who knows what a Federal Government might make her do if they were to be involved in such decisions.

Can you imagine a Government in a position to FORCE her to do something based on other peoples' desires?

You either agree with me or you don't.

Trig shouldn't have been aborted. His country needs him to fight the good fight.

****** You either agree with me or you don't....... Posted by Manypaths ******

.....the third option being ?........

How dare you associate ayn rand or all her fans with some POS scumbag like this. She would spend 2 hours telling him he was full of shit and the complete opposite of everything she believes.I suppose all christians supported hitler since he was a christian, huh? #5 | Posted by goblinsrreal2 at 2008-09-19 10:11 AM | Reply

You're doubly wrong.

First, read the article. Any Rand is officially associated with the organization of the guy who said Trig Palin should be aborted. Not MY association, it's HIS!

Second,
It is clear that Hitler was NOT a Christian historically--look it up. Real Christians like Deitrich Bonhoeffer opposed Hitler to their own deaths.

I suppose it was Sarah's CHOICE to carry this poor blob to term, and I suppose I would oppose governmental efforts to force Sarah to abort.

That said, I think government should ENCOURAGE people not to carry such fetuses to term, and I think the responsible action would have been terminating. I see she's not caring for the brain-damaged infant on the campaign path, as I see no sign of a Bristol-Levi shotgun wedding. herm

"I think government should ENCOURAGE people not to carry such fetuses to term"

Why should the government encourage anyone to do anything with regard to exercising their reproductive rights?

The "poor blob" as you call Trig is a much better "blob" (human) than you are HERM.

Why should the government encourage anyone to do anything with regard to exercising their reproductive rights?

#19 | Posted by JOE at 2008-09-19 01:15 PM | Reply | Flag:

BECAUSE, because all of our rights are only ordained by the government. Hell, just check it out in the youtube video.

For Sure,

BuffaloBobS***

"Can you imagine a Government in a position to FORCE her to do something based on other peoples' desires?"

Of course. That's the natural progression of the abortion argument.

And it won't stop there. If you have an accident and become disabled, or get too old and become a burden...

And these aren't strawmen, folks. This will be reality and it all started in 1973.

HEY, stop this nonsense HERM. We like Trig. He could be used as stem cell research, dontcha' know.

The Rest of the DR LEFT

...no one should question Palin's choice in choosing to give birth to her disabled son....

....its her right as an American, under our constitution, to make that choice......

That said, I think government should ENCOURAGE people not to carry such fetuses to term, and I think the responsible action would have been terminating. I see she's not caring for the brain-damaged infant on the campaign path, as I see no sign of a Bristol-Levi shotgun wedding. herm#18 | Posted by herm at 2008-09-19 01:14 PM | Reply

It only took 18 posts for the true liberal tyranny of the eugenics movement to rear it's UGLY head.

Denis Leary had a song about you...

Margaret Sanger, Planned Parenthood founder, eugenics and Hitler fan who hated the "mongrel races" would be sooo proud of you, herm!

...I think government should ENCOURAGE people not to carry such fetuses to term, -- Herm

I had barely recovered from the fact that there was *one* person who thinks this way.

I had a mentally retarded cousin whose boundless optimism made him a joy to be around. Like Trig Palin, he was born into a large family. After his mother died and his father was too old to care for him, one of his sisters had an addition built onto their house so he could have his own apartment. Not a mean bone in his body; his sweetness and cheerfulness made him very popular at the cafeteria where he worked.

There's a group home down the street from me, and the neighborhood has practically adopted one of the guys who's very social. A lot of us know him by name, he hangs out at the Starbucks around the corner (where he brings his own pack of hot chocolate, and the instructions to make it for him have apparently been passed down through several generations of baristas), and a trainer at the nearby gym made arrangements to get him a membership.

I'd love to tell you I talk to him because I'm an incredibly nice person, but the fact is he always cheers me up. He gets so excited about little things in life -- a new bike, pizza for dinner, a ski trip 3 weeks away, etc.

I don't doubt that caring for my cousin was a lot more work than his parents and sisters ever talked about, or that my neighbor's care is expensive. But to suggest that their lives are of no value because they're essentially children in adult bodies is horrifying and stupid.

Cool Phoenix. Thanks.

Studies have shown that Down Syndrome kids are happier than "normal" people. You wouldn't think so, but that's what the studies show.

I suppose it was Sarah's CHOICE to carry this poor blob to term

#18 | Posted by herm at 2008-09-19 01:14 PM | Reply

You are a scum bag.

Well, I'm up here in this womb
I'm looking all around
Well, I'm looking out my belly button window
And I see a whole lot of frowns
And I'm wondering if they don't want me around

What seems to be the fuzz out there?
Just what seems to be the hang?
'Cause you know if ya just don't want me this time around,
yeah I'll be glad to go back to Spirit Land
And even take a longer rest,
before I'm coming down the chute again
Man, I sure remember the last time, baby
They were still hawkin' about me then
So if you don't want me now,
Make up your mind, where or when
If you don't want me now,
Give or take, you only got two hundred days
'Cause I ain't coming down this way too much more again

You know they got pills for ills and thrills and even spills
But I think you're just a little too late
So I'm coming down into this world, daddy
Regardless of love and hate
And I'm gonna sit up in your bed, mama
And just a grin right in your face
And then I'm gonna eat up all your chocolates,
and say "I hope I'm not too late"

So if there's any questions,
make up your mind
'Cause you better give or take
Questions in your mind
Give it a take,
you only got two hundred days

Way up into this womb
looking all around
Sure's dark in here
And I'm looking out my belly button window
And I swear I see nothing but a lot of frowns
And I'm wondering if they want me around.

--Jimi Hendrix

Being pro-choice I'm of the opinion that this is just exactly that, the choice that the Palin family made. I definitely don't want government telling anyone that they'd have to abort a child for any reason.

It's too bad Nicholas Provenzo's mother didn't abort him so there would be one less despicable lib on the planet.

The only time liberal Democrats care about saving lives if it is a convicted killer on death row or some animal, fish or insect. Innocent babies should be freely killed at will in their playbook.

To suggest someone should have aborted their child is just sick.

UTAStaff: Objectivists are not liberal Democrats.

I didn't bother to read all these comments. I'd just suggest that a few years ago, Colorado Governor Love said some very shocking things.

The bottom line was that health care dollars are FINITE. We need to decide where to put them. Do we put them to keep the BRIGHTEST alive, or keep everyone alive, even if they are retarded?

What a collision of moralities! The moralists would love it if there was unlimited resources. But there isn't. So you have to CHOOSE! Pay for the BEST of our humans or everyone, even if they will not contribute to the species! Code for the retarded!

Christians just hate it when situational ethics is so stark and state governments have to make actual decisions. I'm sure state legislators hate these situations because however they vote, voters will be watching.

Just know this. Judges and hospitals and doctors and parents make these kinds of decisions every day. You don't know about them because the MEDIA doesn't find out about them. Federal law called HIPPA!

This Provenzo guy isn't a liberal. So why are some saying that his views are exactly what liberals espouse? I'm a progressive, and Provenzo suggesting that somebody should have aborted their baby, or that the government shouldn't allow down syndrome babies to be born (like in North Korea), that's just terrible.

Pro choice does NOT mean abortion. It means a woman or parents have the right to make a CHOICE. Just as the Palins had the right to make a CHOICE. They did not have the decision FORCED on them. Sarah Palin made a CHOICE and she would deny that to all women if she has the chance.

There is not a doubt in my mind but what I would have opted for an abortion in that situation. That said, I also know several families with Down Syndrome children who are sublimely in love with that child, and deservedly so. These kids tend to have the sweetest and most loving dispositions you could ever want in a human. It is not for me to say what is right or best for another family.

All the rigid righties started frothing at the mouth on cue.

Sarah made her choice, and I defend it. But government DOES have a role in at least encouraging women not to carry such pregnancies to term, since government will probably have to pay something - if not the total care bill, something that could better have been spent elsewhere.

If the frothers somehow feel that this is Hitlerian, than I somehow have it in for the intellectually challenged (not you, "101" and pals) ... lord, I could care less. But not much less. herm

PS ... And where is TRIG while mama tries to prove to voters that she's "qualified"?

...since government will probably have to pay something - if not the total care bill, something that could better have been spent elsewhere

Can this argument be applied to capital punishment?

it is crucial to reaffirm the morality of aborting a fetus diagnosed with Down syndrome (or by extension, any unborn fetus)a freedom that anti-abortion advocates seek to deny.

What? Since when is abortion a freedom based in morality.?

Roe v. Wade made abortion a freedom of choice, regardless of morality.

"But government DOES have a role in at least encouraging women not to carry such pregnancies to term, *** since government will probably have to pay something ***"

Why stop with medical bills? why not potential criminals, welfare, possible CEO's, etc, etc, etc. There are many that cost the government and for many reasons.

Kirk, I'm not sure you understand the objection. He pleads for the rights of other not to be infringed -- the cornerstone of Libertarian ideology. You can laud her for keeping the baby, especially since she has the means to care for him; that's fine. But the implications have become that abortion, even in the case of a prenatal diagnosis of Down syndrome, should be illegal. After all, that IS Gov. Palin's stated position on the legality of abortion (actually she goes even further to deny abortion rights to women who's lives are threatened by their pregnancy or a 14 year old girl that got pregnant when she was raped by her uncle. It doesn't make any difference to Palin). I think people are responding to Mr. Drudge's substitute headline which is overly simplistic to the point of being misleading. He does not say her child SHOULD have been aborted, although he does say that it is irresponsible for a person incapable of supporting a child with down syndrome to have one anyway.

Sarah made her choice, and I defend it. But government DOES have a role in at least encouraging women not to carry such pregnancies to term, since government will probably have to pay something - if not the total care bill, something that could better have been spent elsewhere.

You mean like drug testing welfare recipients? So the public does not have to pay for their choices or SSI recipients with 6 kids?

Just how far you want to go with that train of thought?

Trig is well cared for by the ENTIRE family, and momma is a small breath of fresh air in a big world of HOT! You're right it is the families choice as it is in most things!

The question of abortion, minimum wage and all those other WEIGHTY issues are the direct responsibility of the STATES as Senator McCain says, not the Federal Government! Also if one state says ok, another should not be allowed to intercede!

Everything the Federal Government touches has turned a distinct brown color, with a bad odor! Why give them another chance to screw up! The minimum wage workers in Louisiana and Mississippithank you for all you've done for them, but the rest of us think you didn't do enough!

If the states won't or can't do whatever needs to be done, then, and only then go the the Feds for relief!

"... abortion (is) the direct responsibility of the STATES..."

WRONG, Dogen, with a capital WRO. It is NO one's responsibility but the person carrying the fetus. No more is it the state's responsibility to decide if I can pull the plug on an unendurable life, have an appendix removed or marry one of my own gender.

As for the momma being a breath of fresh air, Dogen, if you find Sarah's boobs invigorating enough for the White House, you, sir, are in immediate need of a little aversion therapy. herm

And thanks, F and B, for trying to explain what I meant. If I couldn't get through to Kirk, however, I greatly doubt that you can. herm

Pro choice does NOT mean abortion. It means a woman or parents have the right to make a CHOICE
per Dawn--

I used to think that--but other than the secondary industry of promoting birth control pills and tubal ligations--Planned Parenthood--the promoter of abortion gives no other "Choices" to choose from.

They only promote abortion.

Take a look at their website.

There is nothing about Adoption. There is nothing within their 100 million dollar organization that offers help to young mothers, single mothers or any mothers.

Their objective is to abort--anything and everything for every kind of reason.

And they have 100 million dollar budget to make sure it keeps on happening.

I do not want to see the gov't--the feds--telling the citizens to abort or give birth to a baby. This is a States Rights issue for the people of tha State to decide.

And if that State wants to stop abortions--then they have to pony up and help those women financially or help them to place the baby thru adoption. Help them with health care and child care so they can go to school or work.

That would decrease abortions--that kind of outlook and planning.

No, I *do* comprehend the argument, and I do understand where Herm et al are coming from.

And that's why I posted such an article (and I don't mind the minor change in title).

I want to make sure that there is a good established in writing record on where everyone here stands.

Herm, thank you for stating how you honestly feel (as I did as well).

Ever smelled eugenics before...it's kind of like burning flesh...

Planned Parenthood defends all choices, but wants to insure that women have the REAL info on terminating pregnancies, not some fundie monster's "murder" allegation.

Feds tell NO one to abort or not abort. Neither should states, ever. That is a purely personal decision in which no one but the woman carrying the fetus should have any say.

I also know a bit of Planned Parenthood "million dollar" budgets. Fund-raisers who go to gated communities where million-dollar houses are slums (think Monterey Peninsula's Pebble Beach estates) report six-figure donations from society matrons who don't want to see blacks or Hispanics reproduce. herm

And herm,

On your whole argument on paying for Trig's care, Palin has stated plainly and clearly that she and her family have the responsibility of caring for their own.

As governor, Palin FIRED the chef because she didn't want her kids getting spoiled and thinking that it was others' responsibilities (state government at the taxpayers' expense to boot) to prepare their family's food.

That is how the Christian worldview works.

Individuals care/provide for themselves.
When they can't, their families care/provide for them.
When families can't, neighbor, civic organizations, charities, churches/other religious organizations care/provide for them.

And if all of the above fail, THEN it is the responsibility of the city, county, state, and federal governments to care/provide for individuals.

It works better that way, and people are actually *better* cared for the vast majority of the time.

And the Palin family practices what they preach in this area.

The decision is for the parents; With the advice of any shamans (or not) of their choosing and their doctor.

End of fucking discussion.

Now, since the government prints the money, can we have some rules that insure the market place works?

Oops, too late.

Got that $3,333.33 paid up yet?
Too bad about your kneecaps.

Provenzo's picking on the wrong Palin.

If Trig is like most Downs kids I've seen, he'll want nothing more than the chance to mainstream to the very best of his abilities. He'll gladly take a job, and do it cheerfully, happy that he can perform up to the abilities he will be aware are limited. He will be a contributor, not a taker, and he'll interact with the world on a basis of gratitude, not entitlement.

Now, Momma, on the other hand...

"to the very best of his abilities. "

Rock On!

Herm

So you realize and are admitting Planned Parenthood's founding roots in eugenics and the killing off of the "mongrel races" that Margaret Sanger despised?

Are you aware that 85% of Planned Parenthood clinics are in minority neighborhoods?

Does that BOTHER you at all?

"So you realize and are admitting Planned Parenthood's founding roots in eugenics and the killing off of the "mongrel races" that Margaret Sanger despised?"

Kirk, I realize no such thing. Quit trying to outwit me. You can't. PP has absolutely nothing to do with "eugenics" and you know it!

"Are you aware that 85% of Planned Parenthood clinics are in minority neighborhoods? Does that BOTHER you at all?"

Well, no. Poor neighborhoods need its services most. Little rich girls who get knocked up have been going to their friendly private neighborhood gynecologist for "appendectomies" for a century and a half. If you have any other questions, just ask. herm

"So you realize and are admitting Planned Parenthood's founding roots in eugenics and the killing off of the "mongrel races" that Margaret Sanger despised?"

Kirk, I realize no such thing. Quit trying to outwit me. You can't. PP has absolutely nothing to do with "eugenics" and you know it!

"Are you aware that 85% of Planned Parenthood clinics are in minority neighborhoods? Does that BOTHER you at all?"

Well, no. Poor neighborhoods need its services most. Little rich girls who get knocked up have been going to their friendly private neighborhood gynecologist for "appendectomies" for a century and a half. If you have any other questions, just ask. herm

PP has absolutely nothing to do with "eugenics" and you know it!

Of course it does.

It justifies and facilitates the slaughter of human beings based on accidental physical qualities they happen to possess.

I also know a bit of...

You don't know a goddamn thing.

Your a fucking advocate of human butchery, and you don't even know why.

Well-adjusted human beings modify their ideology to conform to their sense of individual and shared humanity.

Fucking monsters who are utterly failed human beings do it vice-versa.

Sarah Palin has attracted the ire of the feminist movement to a degree and, well, contradictory nature that I never thought fathomable.

I am beginning to think that a considerable aspect of feminsts' revulsion for Mrs. Palin stems from the fact that she didn't abort her son, Trig.

I mean, we already know groups like NOW are major hypocrites when it comes to issues like sexual harassment - see Bill Clinton for Exhibit A.

Agree with her politics or not, that Palin could shatter the existing glass ceiling for women should bring great joy to feminists.

But it doesn't.

It's almost as if their stance isn't pro-choice, it's pro-abortion.

"It's almost as if their stance isn't pro-choice, it's pro-abortion."

Jeff, I don't deal in the rightie you're-stoopid school of rhetoric, but you need to meet your ideological soul mate, Kirk, who so memorably said:

"You don't know a goddamn thing."

Kirk and Jeff, Jeff and Kirk, when you guys are totally, absolutely drained of any semblance of idea, you have each other to fall back on, and you can always call your intellectual superiors stoopid. herm

Herm, you are funkin' insane!

Planned Parenthood = eugenics

Margaret Sanger, founder of Planned Parenthood, NEVER renounced eugenics and has NEVER been renounced by Planned Parenthood, has a history that is thoroughly documented. Look it up for yourself--the truth *could* set you free!

It's so crystal clear, it's in the *first sentence* of the (rarely occuring) *undisputed* wikipedia entry on her:

"Margaret Higgins Sanger (September 14, 1879 September 6, 1966) was an American birth control activist, an advocate of negative eugenics, and the founder of the American Birth Control League (which eventually became Planned Parenthood). "

Herm,

If you had a point contained within #61, you lost me.

Please be more specific.

Instead of name-calling, look up the facts.

And respond with some facts when you can process them and bring them, herm.

..Or just call us fucktards and run away per standard operating procedure on the drudge retort in discussions like this.

Negative eugenics, you utterly ignorant twit. This means not reproducing, not wiping anyone out. If negative eugenics were practiced, we wouldn't have Trig Palin or you. herm

Herm,

I am pro-choice (barely).

having said that, I find much of the pro-choice substantiation to be repugnant though.

Furthermore, I find the Left's use of the term "reproductive rights" to be such a gross misprepresentation that I feel compelled to liberally employ the term "pro-abortion" in lieu of "pro-choice".

Herm, you quoted the wrong guy. I NEVER said that!

You do know a few things, and I'm still hoping for a pithy discussion. Don't give up..

It's almost as if their stance isn't pro-choice, it's pro-abortion.

Of course it is.

Ubermensch

Humanity is an aquarium that may be tweaked to perfection if only we'd shed our humanity.

You have sick fucks who are introduced to this concept their sophmore year of college, internalize it, and then shut off any further critical examination of the concept.

It challenges the worldview of the self-loathing bourgeois norms, and that's good enough for them.

"Education" over.

That's what produces the kind of sick fuck that would author a sentence like this:

I suppose it was Sarah's CHOICE to carry this poor blob to term

You don't know a goddamn thing.Your a fucking advocate of human butchery, and you don't even know why.Well-adjusted human beings modify their ideology to conform to their sense of individual and shared humanity.Fucking monsters who are utterly failed human beings do it vice-versa. #58 | Posted by Pinche_Mao at 2008-09-20 12:37 AM | Reply

There's your man, herm.

I know you think everyone who doesn't advocate murdering "retards" in the womb is in the same camp, but we're not.

You stand alone in your defilement.

Margaret Sanger is linked to Hitler. Look it up. Her history is published accurately far and wide, and PP today is unashamed of her.

This means not reproducing

What the fuck do you think murdering the unborn who are unfortunate enough to be victims of their parents' circumstances is?

You are "wiping people out".

Because they have an umbelical cord.

Or semitic features.

I know you think everyone who doesn't advocate murdering "retards" in the womb is in the same camp, but we're not.

How is your camp different from mine?

"Herm, you quoted the wrong guy. " I have enough trouble differentiating among righties Jeff and Kirk, and now Pinche Mao inserts himself into the mix with HIS ad hominem ravings. Remember, the main flaw that YOUR bogus paratrooper keeps tweaking me for is that I'm nearing the eight-decade mark, a very black mark indeed if you heed ole "101." Let's kiss off such stream of consciousness blather as "humanity is an aquarium" and other incomprehensible "sick fuck" babbling and call it a night. I will proceed to do so. herm

Pinche Mao inserts himself into the mix with HIS ad hominem ravings.

Its not "ad hominem" at all, asshole.

Your position is that its ok to slaughter human beings because of accidental physical qualities they possess.

That's what proponents of Eugenics advocated, as well.

Quit whining about "ad hominem" attacks.

"This means not reproducing. What the fuck do you think murdering the unborn who are unfortunate enough to be victims of their parents' circumstances is?"

To clarify your idiocy, "negative eugenics" means choosing not to get pregnant if you carry faulty genes. And I've tried to convince you fetal rights folks that you CAN'T murder what has never been alive, but you continue not to listen. herm

I'm nearing the eight-decade mark

That's pretty fucking sad that you've learned so little.

I hope you find some comfort in that sick, sterile, and souless ideology that reduces humanity into livestock.

Its gonna be a cold winter, Herm.

Run along.

"Its not 'ad hominem' at all, asshole" has to win the comedy award for the night. I rarely bother with LOL, but LOL in spades. Ms. Sanger NEVER advocated slaughtering anyone. herm

"Herm, you quoted the wrong guy. " I have enough trouble differentiating among righties Jeff and Kirk, and now Pinche Mao inserts himself into the mix with HIS ad hominem ravings. Remember, the main flaw that YOUR bogus paratrooper keeps tweaking me for is that I'm nearing the eight-decade mark, a very black mark indeed if you heed ole "101." Let's kiss off such stream of consciousness blather as "humanity is an aquarium" and other incomprehensible "sick fuck" babbling and call it a night. I will proceed to do so. herm

That is a major cop-out.

Ignore the message and attack the messager via guilt-by-association.

Even for someone as old as you, this shouldn't be too difficult - analyze the written word before you, ignore "Posted By:" and respond.

Perhaps, Mr. Chairborne has hit too close to the mark?

Sarah Palin has attracted the ire of the feminist movement to a degree and, well, contradictory nature that I never thought fathomable. -- JeffJ

It's silly to talk about "a feminist movement." There's a lot of diversity among feminists, and I'm one of those who has defended Palin and criticized many people here for sexist attacks on her. I caught snippets of Geraldine Ferraro railing about the same thing while I was at the airport earlier tonight, and Camille Paglia is a strong Palin supporter.

Herm,

"negative eugenics" means choosing not to get pregnant if you carry faulty genes.

Fortunately, human society has advanced to a degree where 'genetically inferior' people can still be contributing members of society.

"The Special Olympics" exists for a reason.

I cannot help but wonder if Mr. Chairborne EVER hit a mark.

But this is not about him, or the execrable Pinche. This is about Jeff and Kirk, and if I mixed them up, what the hell, I apologize. Good night to almost all. I hope. I'll wait five minutes and retire. herm

Have a good night, herm.

You're nearly 80 years old and on here? Really?

I've lumped many "leftists" together here, but to my own dismay. I have yet to see mindless "clones" on any side of the myriad debates here.

There are distinct individuals with their own unique "flavor" on the DR!

Pinche Mao,
You and I and most anybody with the slightest bit of a functioning conscience are in the same camp of THIS debate.

Herm's got shellshock on THIS one though.

Kinda like Danni did when Palin first came across DR and Danni said that anyone who agreed with Palin's decision to NOT abort Trig wouldn't be voting for Obama.
Danni backtracked, I imagine because she either has a sliver of a functioning conscience or got embarrassed by her answer.

"The Special Olympics" exists for a reason? Yeah, Jeff, to salve the consciences of those poor unfortunates they abuse the rest of the year. The Special Olympics exploit the mentally disabled, Jeff, and I for one will never support them. herm

Phoenix,

Forgive me for paiting with such a broad brush.

You have been notable on this blog for your criticisms of the more egregious and baseless attacks on Palin.

In fact, I seem to remember you drawing some seious ire from that Obama-fanatics during the heated primary between Obama and Clinton. You were approaching the chick version of DR's Corky!

Anyhow, your point is well-taken - feminists, like most labeled groups, are not monolithic in thought.

Shellshock, maybe. A functioning conscience, definitely. herm

"The Special Olympics" exists for a reason? Yeah, Jeff, to salve the consciences of those poor unfortunates they abuse the rest of the year. The Special Olympics exploit the mentally disabled, Jeff, and I for one will never support them. herm

Well, you could do what I do - stand near the finish line and trip the retard who is winning the race, just to make him cry.

But this is not about him, or the execrable Pinche. This is about Jeff and Kirk

Its about the state-sanctioned murder of the most innocent and voiceless among us, actually.

You'd figure that's something that might strike a chord with a "liberal".

The Special Olympics exploit the mentally disabled

Jesus Christ.

"Well, you could do what I do - stand near the finish line and trip the retard who is winning the race, just to make him cry."

That's YOUR passion, admittedly, not mine. I clearly said that I do not support the exploitative "Special Olympics." Not did I ever say that the mentally challenged cannot contribute to society. But i think that even YOU will agree that is preferable not to have one. herm

And I've tried to convince you fetal rights folks that you CAN'T murder what has never been alive, but you continue not to listen. herm#74 | Posted by herm at 2008-09-20 01:17 AM | Reply

Well, I haven't seen you actually come close to making that point until now but okay...

So a heartbeat and brainwaves that are measurable do not point to life for you?

Even viability outside the womb doesn't imply "life" for you either?

The numerous studies that show that fetuses (Latin for "little one") feel pain don't imply even a basic indicator of life either?

Are you willfully ignorant of what goes on in the womb, and THAT's how you can call Trig at 27 weeks of pregnancy a "blob" that needs aborting, herm?

Answer whenever.

Good night.

Herm,

Serious question: Have you ever spent time around someone who had a genuine mental handicap?

Well, I have. They are true 'persons' just like you and I. They can brighten anyone's day, just with their smile and excitement about life.

Look, I understand that in prehistoric days, the fledgeling human tribe had to be strong and as such had to euthenize the weak, for the good of the tribe. However, our society has advanced so beyond that stage. We now CAN support physical and mental handicaps in a manner that was unfathomable just 100 years ago. Fruthermore, you are as leftist as it comes - which makes your Darwinistic view toward humans all the more perplexing. On the one hand, you seem to view the destruction of 'bad genes' with glee. On the other hand, you seem to favor the governmental support of social dead-weight (entitlements) under the auspice of 'altruism'. What is so bizarre is that your criteria for tax-payer funded altruism is based solely upon subjective criteria.

Its probably a cold, hard, rational fact that 20-something Downs kids contribute more to society than most octogenarians.

So let's execute the octogenarians so that more resources will be available to the Downs folks.

For the common good.

But i think that even YOU will agree that is preferable not to have one.

You would be wrong.

"Its about the state-sanctioned murder of the most innocent and voiceless among us, "

That's (with an apostrophe) the kind of nonsense that people who fear losing masculine control over women's right mouth when it's late and reason has deserted them. Fetuses are neither innocent nor guilty, voiceless or bawling. They may be one or the other some day if fed and nourished.

An acorn is not an oak tree - but what the hell, that fine distinction is surely lost on you. herm

But i think that even YOU will agree that is preferable not to have one.

Who the fuck are you to say that?

Mao,

This conversation kinda makes you clamor for a throwdown with Boyd, doesn't it?

Is it also "preferable" not to have a kid with red hair?

Or brown skin?

What kind of goddamn monster thinks he can decide who "class" of human being is worthy of life and what is not?

Not did I ever say that the mentally challenged cannot contribute to society. But i think that even YOU will agree that is preferable not to have one. herm#87 | Posted by herm at 2008-09-20 01:34 AM | Reply

You're showing all your cards, you man of incredible perversity
It's not some blob you want to "off", it's a full grown alive human being with a deformity.

"I wish you were never born!"

Sad.

Jeff, you'd be AMAZED at how much time I've spent around the mentally handicapped. I'm sure their smiles are delightful. But I think that if you were told your offspring would definitely be retarded, you might be inclined to use a condom. Well, I hope ... herm

What kind of goddamn monster thinks he can decide who "class" of human being is worthy of life and what is not?

It calls itself "Herm".

This conversation kinda makes you clamor for a throwdown with Boyd, doesn't it?

Boyd cries.

Because at least he has a soul.

I can't say the same for this Mengele-like piece of shit.

Cold winter, Herm.

I hope it was all worth it.

"So a heartbeat and brainwaves that are measurable do not point to life for you?"

They indicate a potential life. The ancient Aramaic word for alive meant "breathing." I stick with that.

Viability? If it's born, it's alive. And *I* never said Trig should have been aborted. Indeed, I said Sarah exercised her Roe v Wade-given choice. herm

Viability? If it's born, it's alive.

Unless you're in Illinois.

0bama '08.

Jeff, you'd be AMAZED at how much time I've spent around the mentally handicapped. I'm sure their smiles are delightful. But I think that if you were told your offspring would definitely be retarded, you might be inclined to use a condom. Well, I hope ... herm

You'd be wrong.

My neighbors' 2nd of 3 has systic phybrosis (sp?). Short life-span and all that - not to mention considerable sacrifice in the short-term. He's a delightful boy and 'seems' normal when playing. Sadly, his days are numbered, yet his parents chose to raise him as 'normally' as possible.

I have 2 boys and I love them dearly. If either one acquired some form of affliction that would result in mental retardation, my LAST reaction would be to put a pistol to his head and pull the trigger. Going further - in a life-or-death situation, I would sacrifice myself, to save either one of them.

The ancient Aramaic word for alive meant "breathing."

Children in the womb breathe, butcher.

It seems to me that I've had this discussion a few hundred times before, and I don't think that any of the name-callers here are really listening. So I'm signing off, and if this thread is on in the morning I'll try to respond to every idiocy added. herm

"Children in the womb breathe, butcher." They don't, asshole. herm

Jeff, you'd be AMAZED at how much time I've spent around the mentally handicapped.

Electric or blade?

The ancient Aramaic word for alive meant "breathing." I stick with that.

You shouldn't. The etymology of 'alive' is from the Germanic branch of the English language. Look it up.

I think the insinuation that I advocate murdering anyone is insane. herm

Herm,

don't think that any of the name-callers here are really listening.

We've listened - we just happen to vehemently disagree.

For what it's worth, I tried to tread lightly with you on this. You are taking a position that is not only unpopular, but also one that many find to be repugnant. In such a discussion, it's easy to attack you personally, in lieu of addressing your points. My gut-reaction has always been to do just that. However, I feel completely different when I try and broach a subject that I feel has some merit, yet is so politiccally incorrect that I get shouted down by the self-righteous.

Any criticism of Obama, regardless of how tepid, is a case-in-point on this blog.

They don't, asshole. herm

They certainly do, cocksucker.

They also eat, shit, smile, and do every other thing a human being at that particular stage of development does.

You have no argument.

And you have no excuse.

You're an advocate for human butchery.

Be man enough to admit it before you die.

Come to terms with it.

Spare us this mealy-mouthed waffling.

I think the insinuation that I advocate murdering anyone is insane.

It all boils down to a difference regarding the definition of 'personhood'.

I don't for a moment believe that you advocate the murder of anyone who falls within your definition of person.

However, you seem to draw the line of human development for the qualification of personhood WAY above that which most others draw the line.

Fair or not, it comes across as Hitler-esque in terms of the perfect, Aryan-race, and all that.

I think this is a terrible thread.

That said, the baby is already born. Stem cell research is on the brink of a lot of new developments.
Give him a chance.

Look at his little picture --

Nice pic, CChris.

My LAST inclination is to take that baby, dash him on the ground and stomp on him until he dies.

But that's just me.

My LAST inclination is to take that baby, dash him on the ground and stomp on him until he dies.

How about trying to do so.

Then failing at the task.

And then putting the little guy in a hospital utility closet to die so his parents' "right to choose" comes to fruition---minute by minute.

Barack Hussein Obama is a big advocate of such things---and has the voting record to prove it.

I'm still waiting for some fuck like Charlie Gibson to look over his eye-glasses (that, incidentally, need to be smashed into his cranium) and ask Hussein about the matter.

I won't hold my breath.

Herm keeps saying that people who have possible "genetic defects" shouldn't have children.
Funny that he doesn't give us a list of what "genetic defects" would be qualified to not be allowed to have children though.
We already know that Down's Syndrom is on his list, but what others?
I had a Brother who had a birth defect, Polysystic Kidneys. We were told he would be dead before he reached 20. Well he lived to reach 51, was married with two daughters (neither of whom had this defect). One of them served in the Navy. He worked at the Post Office until he retired. Should he have been aborted, since there is no test to predetermine this birth defect? After all, in the last 5 or 6 years of his life his kedneys finally failed and he had to use the machine and the last two years he was wheelchair bound and in a nursing home. But he loved racing around Clearwater Fl on his electric wheelchair until he died though.
How about Diabetics? That is a genetic defect. Should they all be either aborted or never conceived?
What about people with Bipolar disorder? Pretty nasty genetic hand down there...
Yet some of our greatest artists and scientists suffered from it.

I'm just curious what Herm's rules for conception would be. I won't go to race, skin color, eye or hair color since that muddies the waters, although in countries like China being the wrong sex will get you aborted real quick.

So tell us your rules for conception please.

I second the guys opinion.
Why let the child suffer and be ridiculed by society.

Why let the child suffer and be ridiculed by society

We let Buffalo bob remain alive, don't we?

Ludwig von Beethoven's mother gave birth to three children with genetic defects before Ludwig was born. Given the chances of a fourth deformend child, should she have aborted if she had the chance?

I sure would miss the second movement of the 9th Symphony if she had. This BTW is one of the greatest compositions of classical music, IMO and was written by a deaf man and was never heard by him. Yep, sounds like the kind of people we should kill before they are born.

The notion that some prick thinks he knows when certain babies should be aborted and when others should not is sickening. It is a personal choice and should be left to a family and their doctor. It seems awfully un-libertarian to criticize others for exercising their reproductive rights, one way or the other.

#3 | Posted by JOE

Well said.