buck up matey - tomorrow is arghhhhhh "talk like a pirate" day!

From under the MSNBC headline: 'We want to take money and put it back in the pocket of middle-class'

The only thing I thought of when I read this was Huckabee's line at the convention:

"I'm not a Republican because I grew up rich, I'm a Republican because I didn't want to spend the rest of my life poor waiting for the government to rescue me!"

Welcome to Sherwood Forrest everyone...

Sure. Patriotic to let the government forcibly take more of the money they never should have had their grubby hands on in the first place. Go ahead and mark me down for unpatriotic Joe.

Welcome to Sherwood Forrest everyone...

#2 | Posted by Rob_The_A_Hole

I don't get it, Rob. We have sort of similar situations, but I don't have any problem with paying taxes. What do you have against taxes?

Maybe I am the bizarro Rob.

HC, I don't have a problem with taxes... I have a problem with overly taxing some Americans to give that money to other Americans. That really bothers me.

I also have a real problem with everyone in America paying different tax rates. I think everyone should pay the same percentage of their wages, or no tax should be on wages and only on sales...

Not everyone gets to be rich in this country... and I don't think its right to punish people because they made something of themselves.

I don't know, Rob.. I think that my ability to do well in this country has ALOT to do with those who earn less than me. The people who take away my trash, the people operate and repair the subway that takes me to work, the people who take care of my daughter while I get to go to work, the people who arrest the guy who wants to steal my wallet, and even the people who do the jobs that are here today, gone later today... you get the idea.

It doesn't bother me to pay more in taxes to ensure that they can have a decent place to live, three healthy meals a day or reasonable healthcare for them and their children.

What's that Spiderman quote? "With great power (wealth) comes great responsibility."

That's where I come from, and I consider my taxes to be the first step toward being responsible.

"Biden: Wealthy paying more taxes is patriotic act"

Fuck Biden.

Now granted I am a tax attorney, but I have always felt that paying taxes is a duty of every American citizen. I am not so sure I would go so far as calling it a patriotic act, but it is a duty. However, I do feel that those who want to shirk their duty do love this country a little less and think more about themselves than the greater good.

okay... well for starters, the last thing my daughters daycare needs is more money from me... lol... I see what you're saying, and to an extent I agree that we couldn't be where we are without the people doing those types of work. But at some point, a line in the sand has to be drawn...

Everyone should have the same rights, the same starting off point... and there should be safety nets for people who stumble. But to take from the wealthy and just give it to the poor is socialism... and that's not what this country is supposed to be about.

Now granted I am a tax attorney, but I have always felt that paying taxes is a duty of every American citizen.

Everyone should pay 10%... that's it. No deductions, no exemptions... every american whether you make $20 or $20Million... 10%.

It would solve a lot of problems.

okay... well for starters, the last thing my daughters daycare needs is more money from me... lol...
#9 | Posted by Rob_The_A_Hole

I could totally appreciate that sentiment. Then I found out what the women who actually care for my girl make as opposed to what the school brings in per room.

My take is Biden thinks wealth redistribution is patriotic.

Biden is more than welcome to send more of his income to the IRS. They will gladly accept it. Anyone else who need to feel more "patriotic" can do the same. As for me, sending 60% of my tax money to entitlements does not make me feel more patriotic. Oh wait, I guess that is part of the "white privilege" on the other thread - or did Tim miss that one on his list?

But at some point, a line in the sand has to be drawn...
#9 | Posted by Rob_The_A_Hole

I'd be on board with doing a better job at fighting fraud and getting people jobs that pay better than what welfare will do (which is a topic for a whole other economics thread).

I could totally appreciate that sentiment. Then I found out what the women who actually care for my girl make as opposed to what the school brings in per room.

#11 | Posted by Hagbard_Celine

That's certainly true... the girls who are actually watching my girl aren't raking in anything, but the daycare certainly is... and she only goes 4 days a week.

While lashing out at an audience member, Biden defended his academic credentials by inflating them, in a fashion that was notably unbecoming and petty for a presidential candidate.

"I think I probably have a much higher IQ than you do, I suspect," Biden sniped at the voter. "I went to law school on a full academic scholarship." That claim was false, as was another claim, made in the same rant, that he graduated in the top half of his law-school class. Biden wrongly stated, too, that he had earned three undergraduate degrees, when in fact he had earned one - a double major in history and political science.

"sending 60% of my tax money to entitlements"

How do you figure that?

Rob, while a flat tax looks good on paper, the economics behind it don't work in industrialized nations.

"I think I probably have a much higher IQ than you do, I suspect," Biden sniped at the voter. "I went to law school on a full academic scholarship." That claim was false, as was another claim, made in the same rant, that he graduated in the top half of his law-school class. Biden wrongly stated, too, that he had earned three undergraduate degrees, when in fact he had earned one - a double major in history and political science.

#17 | Posted by JOE at 2008-09-18 10:48 AM | Reply |

So that's why we aren't seeing or hearing anything from Biden. He's either senile or has Alzheimers.

I think somebody should start a thread about how dangerous Joe Biden is...

a double major in history and political science.

I double majored in poli sci and economics - what a freaking waste of four years.

the girls who are actually watching my girl aren't raking in anything, but the daycare certainly is

----

My wife has a 4 year degree in elementary education and was under $10 an hour when working in daycare as a preschool teacher. A lot depends on the center too...some will pay more but charge more. Some will offer really good discounts for employee kids going to the center 50% to 100% off.

Is Joe saying that the undocumented workers are unpatriotic?

Working with kids though has never been a lucrative field. For many (if not most) teachers, the reward isn't monetary.

i'd rather see the wealthy hire more people than pay more taxes...to give to people who don't want to work...

MAKE THE CHURCHES RESPONSIBLE FOR THE POOR AND INDIGENT!

make everybody accountable. everybody!

Bad news for all you "market firsters", John McBush has vowed to abolish greed.

MAKE THE CHURCHES RESPONSIBLE FOR THE POOR AND INDIGENT!

make everybody accountable. everybody!

#25 | Posted by nanc

Seems like you're on board with Obama in this respect. He's for expanding faith based initiatives and for using economic disadvantage as a qualification for affirmative action consideration and eliminating race based qualifications.

Forget the fact that there'd be no way to keep a person in need from being proselytized if they sought help from the churches (making proselytization a de facto requirement for receipt of services) and the fact that economic disadvantage has nothing to do with the reason affirmative action was necessary in the first place.

Speaking of "patriotic acts," how did Biden vote on the Patriot Act?

h.c. - it would serve a good number of megachurches well to do the work of the Lord rather than just pumping up the numbers - feed and clothe widows and children - the church will pay dearly one day for their greed in the face of this.

i've seen churches do good to and for people and there was absolutely NO proselytizing whatsoever. what a person does speaks much louder than what that person says.

MAKE THE CHURCHES RESPONSIBLE FOR THE POOR AND INDIGENT!

#25 | Posted by nanc at 2008-09-18 11:05 AM | Reply | Flag:

Yep, I was pretty sure that if I watched long enough I'd see someone write it or say it.

This clearly defines what the religious right is so hopeful will come to pass. Make churches all-powerful, give them public funding, allow the clergy to determine public policy and lead us all down the path to mandatory religious participation. You fundies scare the hell out of me and many others.

And of course, here's Joe who gives even lawyers a bad name.

what a person does speaks much louder than what that person says.

#29 | Posted by nanc at 2008-09-18 11:25 AM | Reply | Flag:

Very true, to whit:

Larry Craig
Ted Haggard
Fred Phelps
Jerry Falwell
Jim Bakker

well you get the idea..

Rob, I'm replying to your post on #10.

Forbes suggested 17% after the first $13,000, no exceptions, per person. There were a few exceptions for married couples, kids, head of household, and so forth.

I like the idea of Flat or "Fair" consumption-based taxation myself. Easier for the schlub on the corner (me, for one) to understand.

Now, that said, let's hear all the arguments against. And I have to go back to work, so I'll check later.

thank you joe for making my comments come true each and everytime I call barry what he is

a european socialist

just think if mccain had even used the word patriotic in a sentence how the left here would have reacted

HEY JOE

ASKED ANYONE IN A WHEELCHAIR TO STAND UP LATELY???

It would defintely depend on the context BLGoo.

" I don't have a problem with taxes... I have a problem with overly taxing some Americans to give that money to other Americans."

Then I guess you had a HUGE problem with the tax code the last 7 years, which gave a 60% dividend cut to the wealthiest, and about 50 bucks to the average guy.

"Speaking of "patriotic acts," how did Biden vote on the Patriot Act?"

Posted by JOE

Biden (D-DE), Yea

And while I'm at it.

McCain (R-AZ), Yea

NAYs ---1
Feingold (D-WI)

Not Voting - 1
Landrieu (D-LA)

98% of those scum used the Constitution for toilet paper.

And one of them just didn't show up.

Oh yes, [citation needed]

As for the house of reps ...

Ayes Noes PRES NV
Republican 214 14 3
Democratic 43 156 3
Independent 1
TOTALS 257 171 6

Anyone 'round these parts seen someone trying to "Rove" an ethics investigation? Oh, another Bush clone hard at werk, spreading justice and liberty one lie at a time.

Feingold is a diamond in the rough to be sure. Wish he had run for president though given the tone of this year's dem primary, I can see why he didn't.

buck up matey - tomorrow is arghhhhhh "talk like a pirate" day!

#1 | Posted by nanc

what the F are you talking about?

TH,

It's Nanc, she gets confused unless you're talking about murdering wimmin's for wearing wedding dresses.

"what a person does speaks much louder than what that person says."

#29 | Posted by nanc

Maybe you could talk to the people who hassle and glare and preach at me in the subway tunnels. As for the proselytization when providing services part, once that federal money goes to the churches, it will be hard to prevent that from happening. Obama doesn't seem to be concerned with that.

"Make churches all-powerful, give them public funding, allow the clergy to determine public policy and lead us all down the path to mandatory religious participation. You fundies scare the hell out of me and many others."

#30 | Posted by Reagan58

Again, Obama isn't so concerned with that problem. Maybe you could talk to him?

HC,

If I did indeed have Senator Obama's ear, this would be a topic that I'd want to discuss at length. I've always been opposed to the idea of Faith based initiatives getting so much as $1 of government funding.

this comment should be played over and over on tv and radio because it shows just how much classwarfare the dems are all about.

for instance.........250,000 sounds like a lot of money....can any of our posters who live in new york city tell us how far THAT goes in your city or how about some places in san fransicko or parts of florida, maybe.

and remember we are talking about people who are already paying a HUGE percentage more than middle class america.......

and remember I have no stack in all that because i live on a fixed income that only goes up when I pick the right horse or my putter is hot so my views are PATRIOTIC.....mister biden

250,000 sounds like a lot of money....can any of our posters who live in new york city tell us how far THAT goes in your city
#47 | Posted by bushlovertwo

I'd be firmly middle class rather than just entry-level middle class.

I'm all for including COLA calculations in your tax burden.

-Hagbard in Manhattan

Then I guess you had a HUGE problem with the tax code the last 7 years, which gave a 60% dividend cut to the wealthiest, and about 50 bucks to the average guy.

#36 | Posted by Danforth

If what you say is true, then everyone got something...

I said I don't like when one group is more heavily taxed to give that money to a lesser group. AKA Redistribution of wealth.

I remember Giulliani giving a speach where he said his father always consider paying taxes to be a priveledge.

"If what you say is true, then everyone got something..."

Riiiiiiiiiiiiiiight.

Someone making $3,000,000 a year in dividends: taxes decreased by $700,000.

Someone making $30,000 a year in wages: fifty bucks.

More Republican math.

What kind of stock pays out $3,000,000 a year in dividends? Sign me up!

What kind of stock pays out $3,000,000 a year in dividends? Sign me up!

#52 | Posted by JOE

You're not rich enough to for that kind of clearance.

Biden: Wealthy paying more taxes is patriotic act

Yes it is. Those who have the most to lose should pay more not to.

Riiiiiiiiiiiiiiight.

Someone making $3,000,000 a year in dividends: taxes decreased by $700,000.

Someone making $30,000 a year in wages: fifty bucks.

$50 is something... its not a lot but its something.

I said I have a problem with taking from one, and giving it to another... our politicians shouldn't be modern day Robin Hoods.

I said I have a problem with taking from one, and giving it to another... our politicians shouldn't be modern day Robin Hoods.

#56 | Posted by Rob_The_A_Hole

How noble and brave of you Rob, sticking up for the little guy.

The 'Patriotic' thing to do for Bush's strongest supporters is to PAY for the war in Iraq and the bailouts.

Borrowing from Communist China would have been unheard of 10 years ago - and HIGHLY UNpatriotic.

isnt it american and patriotic to pay one's debts?

isnt it american and patriotic to pay one's debts?

#59 | Posted by truthhurts

If that's true then shouldn't all Americans take part in paying off the debt? Not just a certain type of American...

and I don't think its right to punish people because they made something of themselves.

#5 | Posted by Rob_The_A_Hole

Try and make something of yourself in some third world shit hole country.

Being succesful in America is as much a result of the individual's hard work as it is the economic opportunities that are present in our nation. Take away either of those and it just does not work.

I think somebody should start a thread about how dangerous Joe Biden is...

Like that would ever see the front page here.

Biden is such an attention whore, look for him to make ever-increasing crazy statements in public in the coming weeks, if only to simply help him get some of the headline space that Palin has been grabbing. Who knows? Maybe he'll even start channeling Neil Kinnock again.

Uh... Mr. Biden... excuse me.
The Wealthy DO pay more taxes.
Just letting you know.

Not everyone gets to be rich in this country... and I don't think its right to punish people because they made something of themselves.

#5 | Posted by Rob_The_A_Hole

It's also not right to punish people by buying up failing corporations using tax dollars.

Son one hand you have Obama offering a bribe of $2.75 a day for his vote to 95% of taxpayers. Which in a couple of years will end up costing these same 95% $5.50 a day? Now that idiot Biden wants the 250K crowd to "stand up" and pay more taxes? Claiming they are unpatriotic because they don't pay enough? Doesn't he know who pays the record revenue Washington receives?

"If what you say is true, then everyone got something..."

Riiiiiiiiiiiiiiight.

Someone making $3,000,000 a year in dividends: taxes decreased by $700,000.

Someone making $30,000 a year in wages: fifty bucks.

More Republican math.

#51 | Posted by Danforth

Yeah? So...

Using the IRS's math, 50% of $3,000,000 is $1,500,000, 10% of $30,000 is $3,000. BIG difference in the tax bill wouldn't you say?

Who are you trying to fool? Or do you actually know that you are don't know, but if you did know then you wouldn't be making your argument then would you? :)

"Who are you trying to fool? Or do you actually know that you are don't know"

Ya gotta love the self-retorting retort.

Hey Eddie...the folks making over $350,000 got a 60% rate cut on their dividends. If someone made a million dollars in taxable qualified dividends, they saved $235,000 in federal income tax as compared to the Clinton tax codes.

You got fifty bucks.

Oh, and you're also on the hook for Fannie, Freddie, AIG, Lehman Brothers, Iraq, Afghanistan....

"Doesn't he know who pays the record revenue Washington receives?"

The "record revenue Washington receives" happened in Tax Year 2000.

Anyone claiming differently flunks freshman economics.

Trust me, When W's tax cuts end, I will be paying for it. That said I believe those making a certain amount of money have more invested in our society. If some "chump" making $25,000 a year and loses his job and a bunch of his buddies do as well, he looks up and sees the rest of society tipping champagne glasses, well he will not be a great believer in the "American Dream". Thomas Jefferson saw what can occur in Aristocrat Europe. All the wealth goes to those families and so on and so on. Bill Gates is giving his kids 5 million any more then that he says is a waste. If they can't make it with that....

Joe...show us what you are made of buckaroo.... stop paying some accountant to itemize shit and file the short form.

"Doesn't he know who pays the record revenue Washington receives?"

The "record revenue Washington receives" happened in Tax Year 2000.

Anyone claiming differently flunks freshman economics.

#68 | Posted by Danforth at 2008-09-18 03:14 PM |

Of course they did danforth.

Brian Reidl has more specifics on how your tax dollars will be spent in 2005:

Washington will spend $22,039 per household in 2005....
Social Security/Medicare: $7,245.

Defense: $4,451.

Low-income programs: $3,559.

Interest on the federal debt: $1,582.

Federal employee retirement benefits: $838.

Education: $627.

Health research/regulation: $614.

Veterans benefits: $606.

Highways/mass transit: $388.

Justice administration: $361.

Unemployment benefits: $338.

International affairs: $284.

Natural resources/environment: $275.

Agriculture: $271.

The remaining $598 is allocated to all other federal programs, including social services, space exploration, air transportation, and community development.

Biden and the dems want to take money from a productive group of Americans and give it to the same unproductive group of people who the democratic party has been bowing dowm to since 1930. Dems recently tried to give those same assholes free houses in the sub prime mortgage mess. That worked out great.

It's time to call these poor stupid fucks out and get in their face: YOU ARE STUPID AND WILL ALWAYS BE POOR NO MATTER HOW MUCH THE DEMOCRATIC PARTY GIVES YOU. GET A JOB, GET OFF DRUGS AND ALCOHOL, TAKE A BATH, OR I'LL KICK YOUR ASS.

Militant neocon Thom

"Who are you trying to fool? Or do you actually know that you are don't know"

Ya gotta love the self-retorting retort.

Hey Eddie...the folks making over $350,000 got a 60% rate cut on their dividends. If someone made a million dollars in taxable qualified dividends, they saved $235,000 in federal income tax as compared to the Clinton tax codes.

You got fifty bucks.

Oh, and you're also on the hook for Fannie, Freddie, AIG, Lehman Brothers, Iraq, Afghanistan....

#67 | Posted by Danforth

What bug got up your butt that you are stalking me?

You still don't get it. The rich still pay more in taxes than I do. More in amount and more in percentage.

All I want is for Congress to raise the $150,000 rate to $250,000. I would be pleased as punch!

I don't mind paying some taxes, but I pay too much for what I get.

And yes, I don't agree with any of the extremely large outlays of cash that you mentioned and it does support the rich.

Danforth,

I think it was very irresponsible for W. Bush to persude the lending organizations to lower their restrictions and then buy them out when it failed! Actually, I think it's criminal but nothings going to be done.

biden is the most useless, ineffective moron on the ticket, only 2nd to obama.
Paying higher taxes to bail out the disaster the left created with their welfare state and redistribution of wealth from fannie may/ freddie mac into their coffers, these fucking shitheads need to go to prison, obama can be cell block C bitch organizer, chia biden, can be bubbas old bitch.
Patriotism has nothing to do with taxes, and that mofo biden does'nt have a clue what patriotism means the worthless self serving political whore.

W. Bush and his neocon buddies, Bill Jeff and Bush senior have been executing on a plan made decades ago. If there were a way to punish the mega rich, I am for it.

But, this discussion is focused on those making between $150,000 and $1,000,000 in a year (or some out of the ordinary firgure). Those people pay through the nose. More so than the mega rich. These sums are not out of reach of the "normal" people. In fact, it's quite possible to build and sell a small company or a real estate venture with capital gains in the millions and the government's going to take between 20 and 35%! And that's a lot for a person's life's work, IMHO.

Why should someone be hardworking and smart about something and then the government comes along and takes a large chunk. It's not a fair system.

But, J. Biden is really blowing smoke when he says tax the wealthy, because the mega rich will NEVER pay extra taxes, but those build a nice retirement will be hosed down.

I think it was very irresponsible for W. Bush to persude the lending organizations to lower their restrictions and then buy them out when it failed! Actually, I think it's criminal but nothings going to be done.

Look back at the connection with Obama advisor and the CBC.

WELCOME

Thank you, Chairman [Franklin] Raines, for your kind words of introduction -- and for all that you, your staff and all of the good people at Fannie Mae are doing for the people of my home town of Baltimore, Maryland's Seventh Congressional District and our nation.

Good evening, ladies and gentlemen.

I was very pleased when Frank Raines and Bob Maloney invited me to join you this evening.

Over the years, Frank and I have developed a close relationship - both personally and because of all that he is working to accomplish for the people I represent.

Home Ownership: A CBC Priority

I also want you to know that we in the Congressional Black Caucus are committed to working closely with Fannie Mae toward our shared goal of assuring affordable and safe housing for every American family.

Collectively, we serve 26 million Americans in the Congress of the United States whose lives and well-being are heavily impacted by what Fannie Mae is doing to make housing more affordable.

Affordable housing and expanded home ownership are top priorities for the CBC.

Within the Congressional Black Caucus, we have developed some key leaders in the formulation of national housing policy - Representatives William Lacey Clay, William Jefferson, Stephanie Tubbs Jones, Maxine Waters and Barbara Lee immediately come to mind.

Representative Chakka Fattah has been an especially vigorous advocate for the Hope VI, public housing revitalization program that has played such a major role in my home town of Baltimore - and Harold Ford and Artur Davis are making increasingly important contributions.

Within the CBC, we have a strong and - I believe - quite understandable commitment to the housing aspirations of Americans of color.

Because of substantial commitments by Fannie Mae and other private sector players, home ownership among African Americans is on the rise.

But, sadly, it remains the case that fewer than one-half of America's Black and Latino families are home owners while nearly three-quarters of all Caucasians have achieved this fundamental American goal.

Just last month (October 2003), ACORN (The Association of Community Organizations for Reform
Now) released a report entitled, "The Great Divide: Home Purchase Mortgage Lending - Nationally and in 115 Metropolitan Areas."

The ACORN report confirmed that:

Minority applicants for conventional loans are rejected significantly more often than whites - and the disparity has grown over time, with rejection ratios in 2002 higher than 2001, and higher than they were five years ago.
Minorities of all incomes are rejected more often than whites of the same income for conventional purchase loans, and the disparity increases as the income level increases.
Minorities with higher incomes are denied more often than whites with lower incomes.
These are economic, social and legal realities that we must address, ladies and gentlemen.

They demonstrate the critical importance of Fannie Mae's commitment to fair lending and minority home ownership.

More...

It is not difficult to understand why Frank Raines and Fannie Mae have developed so much support within the Congressional Black Caucus.

Fannie Mae's "American Dream Commitment" is proving to be a tremendous help to the Americans we in the CBC represent - many of them Americans who traditionally have not been well-served by the mortgage industry.

We commend Fannie Mae for its commitment to invest $2 trillion in our communities by the year 2010.

We strongly support Fannie Mae's efforts to tear down barriers, lower costs, and serve 18 million families who are being underserved or overcharged by the mainstream and sub-prime housing finance industries.

Allow me to shine a spotlight on what these initiatives mean to the people of the Baltimore region.

In preparation for this talk, my staff asked Bob Maloney of Fannie Mae to provide us with a quick summary of Fannie Mae's lending within Maryland's 7th Congressional District.

Here is what we learned.

Last year, 2002, Fannie Mae purchased or "securitized" more than 9000 single-family loans in our district - with a combined principal balance of more than $1.5 billion.
More than 2000 of these borrowers were minorities.
Through September of this year, Fannie Mae is doing even better work in our district.
Nearly $2.4 billion invested - 14,000 borrowers served, 3200 of them minorities.
I can not overstate how important that involvement in the economic life of our community has been.

Now, let me place Fannie Mae's role in our community in a Washington context.

I have been informed that the Congressional Budget Office recently testified in a Senate hearing that the role of "government sponsored enterprises" like Fannie Mae in reducing mortgage costs by 25 basis points (one-quarter of one percent) has had little impact.

In light of the impact of that quarter-percent reduction, I honestly do not understand how the CBO could reach the opinion that it did.

107,000 additional African Americans have qualified for home mortgages nationwide.
An additional 78,000 Hispanic Americans now own their own homes.
That's 185,000 additional American home owners, my friends, just because of that 25 basis point reduction.

How can that be considered "little impact?"

Well, my Maryland colleague, Senator Paul Sarbanes, ranking Democrat on the Senate Banking Committee, and I think that this is a big deal.

And that is another reason why we are so committed in working with Fannie Mae.

"and more in percentage. "

Wrong.

The person paying the highest percentage of their income in taxes isn't the millionaire or the billionaire.

It's the wage earner making $102,000 a year.

When ALL taxes are factored, each of the five quintiles pay about 17%-21% of their income in taxes.

What about the post claiming record revenues you dismissed as failing freshman economic?

Now now, just let Danforth pretend he didn't say that.

Get the FARE tax, everyone pays the same percentage with minimum deductions allowed! A flat deduction ($8,500 per wage earner, 3,500 per proven documented dependent) to support the low income workers, an allowance for health care (policies - $3,500), a partial deduction for first home (not to exceed $12,500 based on value over last 5 years) or whatever reasonable amount, and NOTHING else!

Just a thought, you guys'll tear it apart, I'm sure! It's never enough, that's what got us here in the first place, it's NEVER quite enough!

I don't agree with the idea of the wealthy having to pay more of a tax burden simply because they are richer than mostly everyone else. Being rich is not a crime and putting a higher tax burden on them punishes them unfairly even if they can afford to pay more.

I think a certain set percentage of one's income should be applied for everyone's taxes. Cut off all the loopholes. And let those below a very low income amount not have to pay taxes at all.

Stop letting U.S. corporations get away with paying no taxes at all, something that's been going on for awhile now.

DOGEN

Didn't see your post until just now. Looks like we think alike.

"I don't agree with the idea of the wealthy having to pay more of a tax burden simply because they are richer than mostly everyone else."

I guess you think that people shouldn't sacrifice equally then. A 10% tax on someone making 30,000 a year is a far greater burden than 10% on a millionaire.

The people making 250K and up are usually employers.

Take away their incentive to invest and grow and the only thing you will get is stagnation and higher unemployment.

Of course the whole system is messed up.

I know a woman who will NOT apply for a job that makes her $4.00 more an hour because then she would not qualify for all the handouts she is receiving and she feels as though it would probably put her worse off.

That's just fucked up.

This is from 2005 and I would think the numbers are even higher in 2007.

Fiscal Fact No. 33

In addition to America becoming divided between single and married taxpayers (see Part I here), we are also becoming divided between those who pay income taxes and those who pay no income taxes.

Many of the tax cuts enacted over the past four yearsspecifically the doubling of the child credit to $1,000 and the introduction of the new 10 percent bracketwere targeted-- to help taxpayers in the statistical middle-class. It is unlikely that lawmakers understood how powerful these measures would benot only lowering the tax burden for millions of lower- and middle-income taxpayers, but knocking millions of people off the tax rolls entirelyturning them into non-paying tax filers.

Tax Foundation economists estimate that in 2004, some 42.5 million Americans (one-third of all filers) filed a tax return but had no tax liability after taking advantage of their credits and deductions.

Figure 1 shows the percentage of non-payers between 1950 and 2004. During that period, non-payers averaged 22 percent of all taxfilers. Today, however, non-payers account for 32 percent of all taxfilers, a nearly 50 percent increase in the number of non-payers since 2000 and a 160 percent increase in the number of non-payers since 1985.

Considering Wisconsin has the 9th highest State tax, how about Joe Biden sends me a free American Flag and a big fat tax cut.

The people making 250K and up are usually employers.

Take away their incentive to invest and grow and the only thing you will get is stagnation and higher unemployment.

ONLY if those employers invest and hire Americans here in the U.S. If these employers want to invest overseas and use third world labor taking jobs away from Americans then take away all their tax perks. They don't deserve any.

"The people making 250K and up are usually employers."

What percentage of those people are employers?

Considering Wisconsin has the 9th highest State tax, how about Joe Biden sends me a free American Flag and a big fat tax cut.

Vote Obama and he will give you $2.75 a day.

"I don't agree with the idea of the wealthy having to pay more of a tax burden simply because they are richer than mostly everyone else."

I guess you think that people shouldn't sacrifice equally then. A 10% tax on someone making 30,000 a year is a far greater burden than 10% on a millionaire.

#87 | Posted by nullifidian

I think that everyone should be responsible for paying 10% up to $150,000 a year and then nothing after that. That's fair.

Could you imagine the investment that would occur here? How many jobs would be created? How much MORE taxes would be paid in?

Sorry Danforth, if you were arguing with me, I missed it. Try and stay with the conversation. We are talking about being fair to the more innovative and more hard working segment of the population.

"I think that everyone should be responsible for paying 10% up to $150,000 a year and then nothing after that. That's fair. "

No it's not fair, even if it was flat, much less then with your ridiculous ceiling of $150,000. It's an unequal sacrifice and highly regressive.

Vote Obama and he will give you $2.75 a day.

#93 | Posted by crispee_oc

I'd vote for that empty suit if he'd promise to give our Govenor a cabinet position.

It's an unequal sacrifice and highly regressive.

Classic lib mindset. The government should skew taxes to make the poor rich and the rich poor.

"The government should skew taxes to make the poor rich and the rich poor."

No, the sacrifice should be equal.

Why not just pass a law that any registered Democrat doesn't have to work, and can suckle on the Republican tax tit.

Wis, Obama would take Wisconsin with 100% of the vote if he made that promise.

I'd vote for that empty suit if he'd promise to give our Govenor a cabinet position.

#97 | Posted by wisgod at 2008-09-18 05:39 PM |

I kind of like Doyle. Even though he is a dem. Anyone who challenges his citizens has the right ideas to curb Americas lazy ways.

No, the sacrifice should be equal.

How is their equality when 50 million people don't have to pay taxes?

Anyone who challenges his citizens has the right ideas to curb Americas lazy ways.

#102 | Posted by crispee_oc

Or drive them out of the State.

Vote Obama and he will give you $2.75 a day.

Well, that's $2.75 a day more than I was getting with Bush.

Or drive them out of the State.

Good riddance. Nothing but dead weight anyway. Send them right to Illinois or Michigan.

"How is their equality when 50 million people don't have to pay taxes?"

They do pay taxes. They pay the most regressive taxes, i.e., payroll, sales, etc.

"How is their equality when 50 million people don't have to pay taxes?"

They do pay taxes. They pay the most regressive taxes, i.e., payroll, sales, etc.

I thought the argument was about income taxes. If you would like to compare revenues of payroll and sales... What about luxury taxes?

"What about the post claiming record revenues you dismissed as failing freshman economic?"

None of those links factored in inflation. A freshman won't pass an Econ 101 midterm if he compares two years and doesn't factor inflation.

Here's how it's done. Look at your first graph. Take the 2000 number, and multiply it by the inflation factor found at:

I thought the argument was about taxes. Period.

p.s. I didn't include property taxes which are passed on to renters.

I thought the argument was about taxes. Period.

p.s. I didn't include property taxes which are passed on to renters.

#110 | Posted by nullifidian at 2008-09-18 06:00 PM

Maybe Joe needs to be less vague about his speech. What other tax cut could it be other than income taxes?

Under the economic plan proposed by Democratic presidential candidate Barack Obama, people earning more than $250,000 a year would pay more in taxes while those earning less the vast majority of American taxpayers would receive a tax cut.

What about the post claiming record revenues you dismissed as failing freshman economic?"

None of those links factored in inflation. A freshman won't pass an Econ 101 midterm if he compares two years and doesn't factor inflation.

Sorry. I will email the two links and ask them to correct their articles to reflect gross revenues. Or include the net revenues when inflation or any other factor is thrown in. Just for you danforth.

"Under the economic plan proposed by Democratic presidential candidate Barack Obama, people earning more than $250,000 a year would pay more in taxes while those earning less the vast majority of American taxpayers would receive a tax cut."

Excellent.

What other tax cut could it be other than income taxes?

Excellent.

OK I am stumped.

" Or include the net revenues when inflation or any other factor is thrown in. Just for you danforth."

Just for me, and everyone else who ever took---and passed(or taught)---an economics course. Saying "tax cuts increase revenue", and not factoring for inflation just plays to the rubes too idiotic to know better.

But you're proud of your 'stupid', aren't you?

Just for me, and everyone else who ever took---and passed(or taught)---an economics course. Saying "tax cuts increase revenue", and not factoring for inflation just plays to the rubes too idiotic to know better.

But you're proud of your 'stupid', aren't you?

#115 | Posted by Danforth at 2008-09-18 06:09 PM

Let's see here. Take the word of a hack who spends his days blogging or take the word of professionals who publish articles and graffs backing up their numbers. Gothca Sparky. Another fucking clown who thinks he knows more than experts. Show me one published article by you danforth. Otherwise shut the fuck up until you do.

"Otherwise shut the fuck up until you do."

And your expertise is what?

Stephen Moore (economist), Economist and former president of the Club for Growth ; senior fellow at the Cato Institute;

Or danforth from Drudge?

http://www.treas.gov

Or danforth from Drudge?

Get the fuck off yourself. You ain't shit Sparky.

" or take the word of professionals who publish articles and graffs backing up their numbers."

Look, dummy...go to the US government's own website, look up their annual revenues, compare the two years, factor in inflation, and see what you get. You pretend I'm making this shit up. What, exactly don't you get?

a) to properly compare two years, you must factor inflation.

b) using that metric, tax year 2000 produced the most revenue.

c) a freshman Econ 101 student learns (a).

"It's time to be patriotic ... time to jump in, time to be part of the deal, time to help get America out of the rut,"

The rut being AIG's handout, the bank handouts, the auto industry handouts, the airline handouts, etc, etc...

"http://www.treas.gov
Or danforth from Drudge?"

You linked to a press release, fool.

Which didn't factor inflation.

"Under the economic plan proposed by Democratic presidential candidate Barack Obama, people earning more than $250,000 a year would pay more in taxes while those earning less the vast majority of American taxpayers would receive a tax cut."

Excellent.

#113 | Posted by nullifidian

I actually like this one!

But, I don't want a tax cut, I want to pay in less! :)

You see? The first way is like the IRS is giving me something and I should be grateful. The second is like I'm more in control of my own money!

or take the word of professionals who publish articles and graffs backing up their numbers."

Look, dummy...go to the US government's own website, look up their annual revenues, compare the two years, factor in inflation, and see what you get. You pretend I'm making this shit up. What, exactly don't you get?

I don't get how you can say the gross revenues are not up and argue this even though the numbers can smack you in the face. Like I said show me something YOU have written or anything published as a respected economist.

"Stephen Moore (economist), Economist and former president of the Club for Growth ; senior fellow at the Cato Institute;"

I must have missed the link.

Your other links were worthless; either didn't factor inflation, or didn't address the subject at all.

"Stephen Moore (economist), Economist and former president of the Club for Growth ; senior fellow at the Cato Institute;""

Stephen Moore is one of these dipshits that favored the deregulation that has fucked up the economy in the first place.

I must have missed the link.

There's a fucking shocker. How many links would have shut your pie hole?

John McCain was in favor of Stephen Moore's proposals before he was against them.