just google "rick warren emergent church apostacy" and you may find out all you need or ever wanted to know about this church. it is but one of the end time churches spoken about in the bible. there are thousands of others.

"there are thousands of others.

Posted by nanc"

In fact, ALL of them, except yours, right?

Evangelicals are so annoying that you'd figure at least a few would be Democrats.

i'm non-denom, sar. we home church. sola scriptura.

fyi, arcade - for you and your readers - the person who owns fox news is the very same person who controls zondervan books who handles rick warren. oh what a wicked web...

If that is true, how can they vote for someone that believes in killing babies and not killing murders? I somehow get lost in that logic.

his is a feel good approach to christianity.

As opposed to that old-time, feel-bad religion?

I understand why Kabalism is mysticism. Why is yoga?

"i'm non-denom, sar. we home church. sola scriptura."

Then I assume you are not personally doing any of the religious instruction and leaving that up to your husband.

"sola scriptura"

Posted by nanc at 2008-08-19 09:26 AM | Reply

Ah, yes. "Sola scriptura" -- that curious non-biblical doctrine that asserts that all doctrine must come from the Bible.

There will always be the weak minded who believe if you are not being told weekly that you are going to hell and that God is a vindictive and punitive God, that it's not a legitimate church. Fred Phelps light if you will.
Very sad, considering the teachings of Christ.

Very sad, considering the teachings of Christ.

Posted by evilpolock

What'dya wanna bring the teachings of christ into this for? Everybody know the teachings of christ have very little to do with christianity.

Judeo-Christian funda-mental-ism.

An outdated, man-made oxymoron.

This headline may be true, but they will overwhelmingly vote republican anyway, despite their best efforts to make you believe they live in this century.

Don't forget, if you believe in the invisible and the impossible, it's not to far of a stretch to believe in the improbable.

The attitude that there is no Christ in Christianity is reminiscent of the attitude that there is no, "of, by, and for the people" in government as the Constitution provides.

Many people just give up on government because of the inability of people to live up to the Constitution, much as many people give up on Christianity because of the failure of people to live up to the teachings of Christ.

In both cases, there is often a fundamental misunderstanding, and often it is intentional, of what either the Constitution or Christianity teaches.

Both teach liberty, freedom, and equality, one in Law, the other in spirit (mind).

"his is a feel good approach to christianity."

Posted by nanc

I took a peek at his book. It was a little fruity, but starts with, "It's not about you," and goes on to explain that Christianity is about service to others. How is that feel good fluff? Jesus washed his disciples' feet and told them to be like that. Are you one of those douches that thinks saying 1 little prayer makes you a Christian, while you sit around getting fat and ignoring other peoples' needs?

"his is a feel good approach to christianity."

Yeah! Have to have that "you're dirty, sinful, pieces-of-sh*t" Christianity for it to be real. [/snark]

It's bad enough that the separation of church and state order is widely ignored (especially when it benefits the churches).

What this country needs (besides a good political enema), is a law that precludes any religious person from voting.

Anyone who believes in an invisible man in the sky has no place influencing the real world of man's influence on man. Religion by it's very nature, calls into question the rationality and reasoning ability of the faithful. How can we trust the thought processes of the brainwashed, superstitious masses, when it comes to making competent decisions about real world issues?

"What this country needs (besides a good political enema), is a law that precludes any religious person from voting."

Posted by unklegwar

Unklegwar thinks a lot like Bush, that the constitution is just a piece of paper.

What this country needs (besides a good political enema), is a law that precludes any liberal person from voting.

I don't really know anything about Rick Warren, so this may not describe him, but I do think there is a branch of Christianity that tends to forget that the purpose of Christianity is to redeem a fallen Mankind. This is what I would qualify as "feel-good Christianity." And no, the purpose of Christianity is not to feel bad; of course it's to feel good with Christ, etc. But it's important for Christians to remember the basic premise that Mankind NEEDS saving.

"What this country needs (besides a good political enema), is a law that precludes any religious person from voting."

This kind of garbage just pisses me off. It displays the same intolerance that I'm SURE the poster DESPISES about what he perceives religion to be. Pot, meet Kettle.

Political opportunist

"But it's important for Christians to remember the basic premise that Mankind NEEDS saving."

Yes.

Needs condemning (good ol time baptist religion)...not so much.

Here is an oldie but a goodie.

A guy dies and goes to heaven. St. Peter begins to give him a tour along a nice path that follows a tall brick wall. They see one group of happy people who wave. The man asks, "Who are they?"

St. Peter replies, "Oh those are the Lutherans." In a little while they go by another smiling group.

"Who are they?" he asks.

"Those are the Jews." is the reply. In a little bit he comes across yet another.

"And these?"

"Oh, they are the Catholics," says the old Saint.

The man looks down the path by the wall a bit and sees lots of other groups. All of sudden he hears a great noise of people laughing and talking coming from the other side of the wall. Who is on the other side of the wall?" he asks St. Peter.

St. Peter replies with a laugh. "Oh, those are the Fundamentalists. They think they are the only ones here."

Grendel, good joke.

In another case St Peter is giving a newcomer the grand tour as well.

They come upon an open field where folks are cavorting about naked and having a wonderful time.

"Who are those people?"

"They're pagans."

"And who are the people at the edge of the field? They seem to be in agony at the very sight."

"Those are Baptists who've gone to hell."

There will always be the weak minded who believe if you are not being told weekly that you are going to hell and that God is a vindictive and punitive God, that it's not a legitimate church. Fred Phelps light if you will.
Very sad, considering the teachings of Christ.

If one looks at the passage: 'No one comes before the Father except through Me' (John 14:6-9 ) it at first seems very exclusive when in fact it is extremely inclusive.

Let's apply some simple logic. (logos)

If Jesus is the Truth, anyone in the world who seeks truth by whatever name it is known, seeks the Son of God, the embodiment of truth.

That many of us disagree on the nature of this truth is not a weakness, but a strength also. IMHO Religion is at its best when it is in dialogue with itself and other beliefs--when it disagrees. It can be a blessing rather than a curse as it provides the greatest opportunity for us to engage in the search for the truth. We too often forget that much of the sacred texts of the world contain sign posts to the truth rather than the truth itself. Too many worship the signposts rather than the direction they point. (Bibliolatry)

Ask and seek and you shall find.

Of course, none of us will ever know or comprehend the full truth in this life. Fortunately, the Truth does does not require us to be perfect (thus the importance of forgiveness) only that we never stop looking.

If we keep on looking, in the end the Truth will find us--like the Shepherd looking for his lost sheep. Once found, we will recount our search and then will know where we erred in our search and where we were on the path. Our individual search will then become part of the Truth for the Truth encompasses all things.

Heaven can, indeed, be a big place as long we look for it.

By the way, even atheist scientists are searching for the Truth.

After all. . .

"What's in a name? That which we call a rose
By any other name would smell as sweet."

Grendel, I love reading your posts because they always make me think. I had never thought of this: "If Jesus is the Truth, anyone in the world who seeks truth by whatever name it is known, seeks the Son of God, the embodiment of truth." before, but it does make sense. I was actually a little surprised that it came from you -- I wouldn't expect a Catholic to have this type of catholic (universal) view. Very cool.

By the way, going off of your recommendation from a long, long time ago, I finally finished reading John Gardner's 'Grendel.' I really enjoyed it, although I kept having this nagging feeling that there were deeper philosophical underpinnings that I wasn't quite getting, particularly when Grendel went to talk to the dragon. Overall, though, I really enjoyed it. Thanks for the tip.

did grendel just turn me christian?

Hold on....

er, uhm....

Oh yeah,

Non Serviam.

Whew, I feel better now.

times like this, make me happy to be a Gnostic

And I am very thankful to be a Deist.

You ever notice how christians have to over-explain the same old tired platitudes over and over and over....

It's bad enough that the separation of church and state

Posted by unklegwar

Just exactly what part of the constitution said that.

Amendment I
Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof;

Thoes are the words in my copy. Dosen't say anything about what you said.

Don't let the wind blow your blumers.

I was actually a little surprised that it came from you -- I wouldn't expect a Catholic to have this type of catholic (universal) view. Very cool.

Hello Dylanfan,

It is actually a very Catholic (in both senses of the word)understanding of salvation. Though I don't like to cite Wikipedia--its article on Salvation does actually present the Catholic viewpoint succinctly.

Here it is referring to moral law--an aspect of the Truth, but the gist is similar enough--especially in reference to the "logos."

. . .Catholics believe that people, even those who are not explicitly Christian, have the moral law written in their hearts, according to Jeremiah 31:33 (prophecy of new covenant): "I will write my law on their hearts." St. Justin wrote that those who have not accepted Christ but follow the moral law of their hearts (logos) follow God, because it is God who has written the moral law in each person's heart. Though he may not explicitly recognize it, he has the spirit of Christ.

According to Fr. William Most's article for EWTN (the primary Catholic television network), those who have the spirit of Christ belong to the body of Christ. He writes, "Those who follow the Spirit of Christ, the Logos who writes the law on their hearts, are Christians, are members of Christ, are members of His Church. They may lack indeed external adherence; they may never have heard of the Church. But yet, in the substantial sense, without formal adherence, they do belong to Christ, to His Church."

A Catholic theologian friend of mind once said, that it is a wide held belief among Catholics (theologians anyway) that God offers the means to salvation to all people in a way that may be unique for that person, his or her historical or cultural circumstances. After hearing that I thought of the above--the search for Truth as being universal.

Anyway, thanks for the response.

BTW, Zat, thanks for the joke. It is a funny one.

PAX

Grendel-
Thanks for the response. I hope you didn't take my Catholic/catholic quip as an insult -- I never knew this about Catholic belief. In fact, I had always thought that the official Catholic position was basically the opposite viewpoint: if its not Catholic, it's not Christian, and it's not getting into heaven (basically). I guess maybe that's a byproduct of my Lutheran upbringing.

The ideas you presented, though, do begin to put to rest one of the personal sticking points I've had with my Christian faith -- basically, what happens to those people who have never heard of Christ? I had begun to sort of privately believe something along the lines of what you just said, though I had never articulated it nor had I seen it articulated by anyone else other than people who come off as a little -- I don't know -- out there. Coming from you, it has a bit of weight. Thanks.

Dylanfan,

I am glad that you enjoyed Grendel. I think Gardner was really the beginning of the recent literary trend of rewriting works of literature from another's point of view--the recent novel Wicked comes to mind, but there are others.

I confess, I really need to read Gardner's work again. I read it once and that was twenty years ago. The conversations that he has with the dragon were a bit obtuse, if I remember. Perhaps the intervening twenty years will let me see things I couldn't see before.

In case you are wondering, I chose the sobriquet, Grendel for the Retort because for a long time, I felt like a lurker on the borders, listening to the "joy" of all of those who posted--especially those who congratulate each other for espousing the same ideology and point of view.

Every once in a while, I would intrude and try to upset everything by arguing an other side. Years before, I would take any opposing side just to enter a debate, but quickly I realized that pretty much the views I actually hold were in opposition to many.

So like Grendel, I lurk on the boarders, listen, intrude and challenge myself and others.

Waes se grimma gaest Grendel haten,
maere mearcstapa, se the moras heold,
fen ond faesten.

The grim guest was called Grendel, prowler (stepper along the mark) of the moors, he held the heaths, the fens and fastness.

Wes thu hal!

In fact, I had always thought that the official Catholic position was basically the opposite viewpoint: if its not Catholic, it's not Christian--

YEAH!

Except thats the Baptists who think that way --- not Catholics.

Thanks, Grendel, for the expansive and defining explanation of Catholic views re salvation. Where the hell were you when I was stumbling while trying to explain that to the Farmer? :)

I went to Catholic school as a kid and used to try to ask questions about other religions to see if I could get the nuns to say something bad about them or just to generally piss the nuns off. Granted, at eight years old I was hardly too subtle but these women were not particularly intelligent or tactful and they never took the bait. Most of them were mean spirited and petty but they never said a bad word about any other reigions.

They actually blamed the Romans for killing Jesus if you can believe that one.....

Thanks, Grendel, for the expansive and defining explanation of Catholic views re salvation. Where the hell were you when I was stumbling while trying to explain that to the Farmer? :)

I read your explanation to Farmer. I tought you were doing a great job. You didn't need me.

PAX

if you are not being told weekly that you are going to hell and that God is a vindictive and punitive God, that it's not a legitimate church.

Posted by evilpolock at 2008-08-19 09:48 AM | Reply

What an ugly and bitter attitude. Clearly non-Christian.

You are truly a miserable and tortured soul. I pity you and the parents that taught you such a vile outlook.

it is a wide held belief among Catholics (theologians anyway) that God offers the means to salvation to all people in a way that may be unique for that person,

Posted by Grendel at 2008-08-19 01:14 PM | Reply

Grendel,

That would be consistent with Romans, Chapter 1 and 7. In fact, much of the Gospel is about God reaching down to us, at our level. It makes the True Faith unique because God reches us; we cannot reach up and satisfy God

"What an ugly and bitter attitude. Clearly non-Christian.

"You are truly a miserable and tortured soul. I pity you and the parents that taught you such a vile outlook."

Posted by vernon at 2008-08-19 07:16 PM

Why do you think these cows can't get a man in bed, even for a drunken mercy fuck?

Give my regards to your wife: Large Marge

Posted by vernon at 2008-08-19 07:03 PM

Isn't this what's known around here as a self-retorting retort?

That would be consistent with Romans, Chapter 1 and 7. In fact, much of the Gospel is about God reaching down to us, at our level. It makes the True Faith unique because God reches us; we cannot reach up and satisfy God

Yes, think of Michelangelo's famous painting on the Sistine Chapel of God and Adam.

That would be consistent with Romans, Chapter 1 and 7. In fact, much of the Gospel is about God reaching down to us, at our level.

One other point in reference to this, if you will indulge me.

The myth of Genesis is about the sin of pride--human beings eating the forbidden fruit out of their desire to become gods.

This is reiterated in the Tower of Babel (humanity seeking to create a tower to reach heaven) and is a consistent theme throughout Hebrew Scripture.

The Christian response is that though it is impossible for man to become God (though that is what man wishes for himself), God has the power to become man. God seeks man. Indeed, this is what Christians believe he has done. He answers the sin of pride with the virtue of humility, here by being born in a manger to a poor family from the political backwater of the Roman Empire.

Moreover, human beings cannot rectify the sin of Genesis, but God can and He does so by making the sin a kind of divine truth. (God turns all of our sinful actions--the exercising of our free will to a divine purpose--even if they actions defy God. Like the alchemists who desired to turn lead into Gold, God can spin good from evil.) Christians believe that humanity by virtue of the incarnation of the Son of God share in God's nature unlike any other creature. Not even the angel's share their nature with God.
(This is sometimes why the sin in Garden is referred to as the felix culpa--the fortunate fall.)

Well, I hope that made sense. I am writing fast and not proofreading.

Anyway, believe or disbelieve, but even if you examine it merely from an literary aesthetic, the myths/sacred texts demonstrate a great balance and harmony of Judeo-Christian belief system.

PAX

Evangelicals Less Republican, More Christian

This simply translates into 'we don't care about any problems facing America, only that we overturn abortion'.

I went to Catholic school as a kid and used to try to ask questions about other religions to see if I could get the nuns to say something bad about them or just to generally piss the nuns off. Granted, at eight years old I was hardly too subtle but these women were not particularly intelligent or tactful and they never took the bait. Most of them were mean spirited and petty but they never said a bad word about any other reigions.

They actually blamed the Romans for killing Jesus if you can believe that one.....

Posted by Sully

This non-catholic kid got his only meaningful education via five years in a Catholic school. Taught by nuns who were intelligent, tactful and loving.

As an adult I think that god, the easter bunny and the tooth fairy should get equal billing.

If you notice he said "a law". That by itself implies that he knows and freely admits that the current constitution grants voting rights to all.

To follow the constitution would be to pass a law or an amendment. That is allowed for in the constitution.

Verm,
"What an ugly and bitter attitude. Clearly non-Christian. You are truly a miserable and tortured soul. I pity you and the parents that taught you such a vile outlook."

Next time read my entire post and pay attention before you comment...mindlessly. My beliefs are based on the Bible and specifically the teachings of Christ. The reality is there are those who profess to be Christians who believe they need to hear how everyone is a sinner, and that they need to hear this constantly. This is not now and never has been conducive to bringing non believers to Christ.