If anyone watched Gerald Posner on Countdown last night they already know more than a few government claims appear dubious to those with intimate knowledge on how anthrax is created and weaponized.

First, the anthrax the government links to Ivins was liquified, it wasn't in the microscopic-spore form found in the envelopes sent around this country. The government hasn't explained how Ivins or anyone else was able to achieve this transformation and other global experts, according to Posner, say it would take multiple people to complete the process, turning the liquid into dry spores with the intricacy found in the target samples.

And maybe even more damning to the Defense Department, why didn't Ivins' own psychological history and make-up preclude him from working on some of the most dangerous materiel our government's labs produce? Don't they do background checks and psyche-profiles before releasing idiots into our labs? His record of instability wasn't a secret so why didn't the relevant authorities know about his craziness before all this happened, and what about the seven years afterward? What kind of investigation would miss a screaming RED profile like Ivins for six years while going after an innocent man now clutching $5 million of our tax dollars for being defamed? Ivins has all the classic signs of either a patsy or a cutout, take your pick. There appears to be a lot more to this story than we're likely to find out.

Oh gee, he had psychological problems but I don't seem to find any crazy political beliefs or tendencies....anyone want to guess how he leaned?????
I'm pretty damn sure it's obvious though they aren't reporting it.....but we all know because Leahy and Daschle were recipients of his little gift....so we know....
he was a right wing lunatic.
Lots of them who post here just need access to the Anthrax and it would be an epidemic.

Almost forgotten is the fact it was the anthrax episode that persuaded Congress ro pass (the already written) Patriot Act unread.

Oh gee, he had psychological problems but I don't seem to find any crazy political beliefs or tendencies....anyone want to guess how he leaned?????
I'm pretty damn sure it's obvious though they aren't reporting it.....but we all know because Leahy and Daschle were recipients of his little gift....so we know....
he was a right wing lunatic.
Lots of them who post here just need access to the Anthrax and it would be an epidemic.

I am sorry to hear about your restless leg syndrome. You might, however, wish to see your doctor and get a script for Requip. It should take care of that persistent knee jerking problem of yours.

PAX

It's hard to fathom they allowed him to continue working for years while he was under suspicion

I'll return to this---Most men commmit suicide using definite methods, such as firearms. Ivins owned a gun, yet used Tylenol.

The man is reported to have threatened, as the crazy person he allegedly was (no psychiatric diagnosis is advanced) to go out in a blaze of glory, but in the event killed only himself and that very quietly.

People seem to be catching what already hooked my attention---No one seems to have been frightened Ivins was capable of a second attack if pushed against the wall,

No one even used hasmat suits searching his home. Why would you not?

When only two Senators (both Democrats and both questioning the Patriot Act and both in powerful positions to kill the bill) received the Anthrax Grendel it is hardly a knee jerk reaction, rather it would be idiotic not to look at the their politics as the motive.

Just like the gitmo conviction. it's a dog and piony show for the stupid americans who still believe our government is benevolent

The therapist who took out a protective order against Ivins stated in her affidavit that the man "is a revenge killer".

Why is she so definite about this, given the only information she had concerning it allegedly came from Ivins himself during therapy?

Why not state, as she was no doubt practiced in doing, that her client "states he is a revenge killer", or has made "statements to the effect he has murdered others"?

In other words, why was Ivin's therapist deliberately courting a possible complaint against her license and lawsuit?

The wacky lib conspiracy buffs are stanpeding this morning. Too bad we can't steer the herd toward a cliff.

Hell, FWTHOM--For how many years was Hatfill guilty of this crime, according to the almighty FBI?

I was referring more to the following:

Lots of them who post here just need access to the Anthrax and it would be an epidemic.

It is part of the "us and them" mentality that people here tend to jump to that I find the most disturbing. The application of labels, the assigning of positions and then character assassinations based on those labels and assignations occurs on both sides of the political spectrum. I hate it when the left does it and I hate it with the right does it.

The habit of doing this is a far greater evil than questionable ideological positions that people may hold.

What is rich is the irony of people who decry prejudice and stereotyping dipping their brushes in the same paint as those they hold in contempt.

PAX

Grendel I wish I could agree with you but I really do think some of the right wingers who post here would happily mail Anthrax. Not most of them but there are some who are C R A Z Y ! !

... and they LOOKED just like HUMANS...

All except for FWTHOM who looks like a texas longhorn with impotent horns.

Lipzoidial; Mooooo
FWTHOM; Moo Moo Moo Moo
Lipzoid; MOOOOOOO, BITCH
FWTHOM; Moo, yes master.

You people are frosty this morning! Are there good or noble steotypes and prejudices? For example: Libs are notable for their compassion for the poor; even though they have only delivered misery through their policies.

I don't think that it's all that wacky to assume the american government guilty of being lying/thieving/cocksuckers. Considering recent events, I consider it embarassing that people believe anything they are told by these motherfuckers.

Danni, Danni,

you said:
Grendel I wish I could agree with you but I really do think some of the right wingers who post here would happily mail Anthrax. Not most of them but there are some who are C R A Z Y ! !

I see you are still just as much a bigot as you were during the 04 elections. Im surprised you havent brought up NASCAR or bible thumping red states yet.

Are there good or noble steotypes and prejudices? For example: Libs are notable for their compassion for the poor; even though they have only delivered misery through their policies

Sure, there are positive stereotypes. These are the ones that people don't seem to get too upset about. In fact many happily lay claim to them despite the fact they are just as unfair for one to assume as negative ones.

You know some positive stereotypes:

Italians are great lovers; the French are great cooks, etc.

Positive and negative stereotypes are the source of the following well known joke:

Heaven and Hell

Heaven Is Where:

The French are the chefs
The Italians are the lovers
The British are the police
The Germans are the mechanics
And the Swiss make everything run on time

Hell is Where:

The British are the chefs
The Swiss are the lovers
The French are the mechanics
The Italians make everything run on time
And the Germans are the police

I see you are still just as much a bigot as you were during the 04 elections.

Posted by Mutt

And what name would you have posted under back then, just so we're all on the same page.

FBI Linked Ivins to Anthrax Used in Attacks

I sure hope their suspicions are correct and Ivins was the man.

But this sure feels like blaming the dead pilot for a crash that has many questions.

Oh gee, he had psychological problems but I don't seem to find any crazy political beliefs or tendencies....anyone want to guess how he leaned?????
I'm pretty damn sure it's obvious though they aren't reporting it

Green Party? Nothing like a broad-brush uninformed generalization to keep the discussion on track. Nice job.

Oh, by the way, I saw a guy spit on the sidewalk last Monday. I did not get a chance to ask him how he votes, but I could tell that he was a Democrat by the fact that he was doing something I disapprove of. You are an imbecile.

I guess it was just a coincidence that the only SEnators to recieve the Anthrax were powerful Dems.

Actually, I think you would need to be an imbecile to believe that it was a coincidence.
I also think you would need to be a self-hating imbecile to argue the point and look so stupid.

he was a right wing lunatic.
Lots of them who post here just need access to the Anthrax and it would be an epidemic.

Posted by danni at 2008-08-07 08:20 AM

I wonder if he had books from Bill O and Hannity and Mike Savage under his bed?

There is something wrong when it takes 7 years to figure out that this one guy did this. The timing is very suspicious and the facts don't actually convict this guy beyond a shadow of a doubt.

It just looks to me like the FBI is trying to pin this on a dead guy who can't defend himself.

The FBI comes into this with some pretty heavy baggage and this does nothing to clear anything up. They have falsely accused others in high profiles cases and totally ruined their "reputation".

But, how convenient this is for them.

I am sure that they are hoping that the public buys the story lock stock and barrel and it disappears into the X-files.

I see them just creating more space for BBob and others to weave another huge conspiracy theory web.

Great... there goes any possibility of getting to the Truth ...again.

Everyone knows the anthrax strains were traced to a lab on the moon. You can see a video of the spores being released on Youtube.

Do any of you on this thread have anything concrete to suggest that the source was anybody other than Ivins?

I see a lot of hatred and insinuated blame coming through without any substantiation.

This is very reminiscent of the Randi Rhodes "mugging". Her replacement for the day suggested that it was a hate crime perpetuated by a rightwinger and the Lefty loons ate it up. As it turns out, she simply got hammered, fell down and hurt herself.

But please continue. It's fun to watch you guys levy blame without a shred of evidence.

" It's fun to watch you guys levy blame "

Anti-semite.

Kennedy was a Democrat, and killed by a leftie. Oh wait, Danni says Oswald had to have been a Nazi because only right-wing nuts go after left-wing pols.

Danni, you make the simplistic assumption in your initial posting that Ivins' targeting two of the most influential men in the Senate (one was Majority Leader) means he is a rightie based solely on the fact that they were lefties. No proof, but it is a nice theory because it reinforces your narrow world-view.

You also state that because he had psychological problems, it is conclusive that he is right-leaning because a large percentage of righties are "C R A Z Y" [to quote you in your follow-on posting]. Who knows... maybe he did it to impress Jodie Foster.

I stand by my initial statement: Your logic is sophomoric and knee-jerk and further reinforces your position as an imbecilic one-trick pony. I guess on the bright side you had the presence of mind to leave Halliburton out of it, but I suppose there's still time.

Anti-semite.

During the FBI investigation of Hatfill, they theorized the man physically took the anthrax in question to his home and worked on it there, specifically using his own bathtub.

I haen't heard the same speculation from the FBI in regards to Ivins, but it begs the question---If he was the culprit why couldn't he have some spores stashed away, or at least inadvertently contaminating something?

Once again, why no hasmat suits? Why leave someone you think is a guilty psychopath worthy of arrest free with the possible ability to create more mischief?

How's this Jeff?

OLBERMANN: The flask of anthrax with identical spores, ostensibly, their strongest piece of evidence. What do you make of this?

POSNER: Thats what they make it sound like, but its not. Let me tell you, the late public hears this, they think thats the evidence. Those are the spores that got people sick, sent out from the envelopes, not true. That was liquid anthrax in that flask.

Even if the FBI can tie to that flask, they cant explain how it was then made into this extremely sophisticated type of weapon with small milligram with electric charges to it, with polyglots on top of the coating, all to go deep inside the lungs, to spread to the air. This was weaponized, military anthrax. They cannot explain how from that glass flask in a liquid form into the form that was sent in the envelopes, that they dont have the evidence on it.

OLBERMANN: What, if anything that they presented today, is the strongest evidence? What do they got going for them?

POSNER: Well, they threw out this machine what they called the lyopholizer, they say that can make wet anthrax into dry anthrax, but I talked to six different microbiologist today and people involved formerly in weapons programs in the United States and in Russia, who say that the machine that the FBI talks about cant do that.

The strongest evidence they have going for them is also their Achilles heel and that hes psychological profile. That fact that hes very unstable, that he was someone who was an alcoholic, that he might wanted to have the vaccine continue to go along, but thats also the fact that he could have been set up as a cutout or puppet (ph) or used by a group of people who wanted the anthrax out there.

They also knew about his weak psychological profile. How was he employed with the most secret biological warfare lab in the United States with this type of background that we now hear about? That they should have known about from day one. The Defense Department should hang its head in shame.

Is that good enough to draw your attention into believing we aren't getting the entire story yet from the government?

You are conflating issues, Tony.

I have no problem with skepticism of the current story. In fact, I think skepticism is warranted. However, that isn't what's happening on this thread. The skepticism and desire for further investigation has turned into blatant accusations that some rightwinger intentionally tried to infect 2 prominent Democrats with Anthrax.

I have no problem with probing into this further as I agree that the official story has a lot of holes in it.

What I DO have a problem with is taking the flimsiness of this story and using it as a means to tarnish an 'opponent' and doing so without any corroborating evidence of their own. Not only is it petty and partisan, it's also hypocritical. Blast the official story because it has holes and then create a counter-story that is almost nothing but holes.

Do any of you on this thread have anything concrete to suggest that the source was anybody other than Ivins?

Like anyone on this thread has the power and resources of the the FBI!

Can you maybe offer me 2.5 million dollars and the sports car of my choice? Maybe I could come up with something on my dad!

Jeff...

Since what I listed was in the very first post of the thread, I thought you were referring to the substantive evidence, not the unfounded speculation. But as we've found with the Bush government as it concerns all issues leading to implicating Saddam with 9/11, they aren't above using any means necessary to justify their ends.

My concern is that people, again, will just hear the logical, "the anthrax matched that in his flask..." and consider that evidence of his guilt, notwithstanding many others had access to the same flask and the anthrax in it was liquid and not in the weaponized form which was used in the attacks. On top of this is Posner's statements which claim it would have taken multiple persons to create the special strain that was used, and you have a defacto conspiracy without any other suspects so far and an FBI trying to sell the "lone sporeman" theory.

What I want to know is, if Ivins was really bombarding his colleagues with lunatic emails talking about mental instability and his fight against a compulsion to unleash an annihilation, why the hell didn't anybody react to this madness, tell their supervisors and get him removed from his position?

Yet, he continued to work with anthrax right up until recently.

Would you want to work in the same building with the guy who supposedly was writing these psychotic emails?

It simply doesn't pass the smell test.

Why, Molly, WHY??

2 FFs in one thread, JoMama. The anti-semite one and the Molly reference. Nice

I try.

Of course, some may say I am "trying"....ah well.

For JeffJ...you really should get out more:>)

The FBI just digging itself in deeper with this one. As others have already reported, at least ten other people had access to that flask in the lab, including Dr. Zack, Ivin's supervisor, who was caught on the security systems entering that lab without authorization after losing his job over a racially-motivated attack on an Egyptian co-worker.

Bani's links has Ivin's therapist stating psychiatrists diagnosed the man as a sociopath. Two points---

1) Ivins was identified as a sociopath and is allowed to work with anthrax? Brave new world....

2) You and I might use the term "sociopath" because we don't know any better.

A psychiatrist would diagnose "Antisocial Personality Disorder", the label "sociopath" now being colloqiual and not clinical in aspect.

No one even used hasmat suits searching his home.

Which proves this is total Bullshit.

Interesting that they had enough evidence to watch him for years, yet did nothing.

Who the fuck kills themselves with Tylenol?

They also let this guy keep working on(and borrowing) equipment for Anthrax research.

This entire episode is BEYOND bizarre. Beyond believable fiction that could sell at borders. Anyone feel safer yet?

Ivins was identified as a sociopath and is allowed to work with anthrax? Brave new world....

Yeah, I heard that on the news last night. Well, no one made the connection, but the facts were there.

Even for psyops this is ABSURD.

From Alex's post....

Additional key facts re: the anthrax investigation

So much of the public reporting about Ivins has been devoted to depicting him as a highly unstable psychotic who had been issuing extremely violent threats and who had a violent past. But that depiction has been based almost exclusively on the uncorroborated claims of Jean Carol Duley, a social worker (not a psychiatrist or psychologist) who, as recently as last year, was apparently still in college at Hood College in Frederick, Maryland.

the Anthrax Incident:
FBI linked Ivans
McCain linked Iraq
which has the better judgement?

I'm stating to seriously doubt that Ivins did this.