Good! I'm glad he's willing to consider a well reasoned compromise.

Announced on a Friday headed into the weekend news cycle.

Glad to see he's changing his stance. I'm sure polling data had nothing to do with it. ;^o

From the article Obama says, "My interest is in making sure we've got the kind of comprehensive energy policy that can bring down gas prices...If, in order to get that passed, we have to compromise in terms of a careful, well thought-out drilling strategy that was carefully circumscribed to avoid significant environmental damage I don't want to be so rigid that we can't get something done."

Maybe I missed it, but did Obama ever say it was the right thing to do? Sounds like he's saying he'll go along with something he's opposed to in order to look like he's providing solutions.

He's been getting beat in polling over this issue. McCain and everyone else who advocates drilling also advocates deployment of a wide array of alternative sources. No one is saying drill and drill only.

I'm starting to wonder: is there a single issue these days, on which Obama's position is any different than Bush's?

LMAO. I love it. On Iraq, on healthcare, now on energy--the big issues of the day--no difference at all. I just wonder--is it because Obama now sees the wisdom of W's positions? Or is it because, deep down, he's just another lying pol?

"Or is it because, deep down, he's just another lying pol?"

It's not even deep down, RIR. The Obamaniacs can't see it or won't admit it, but he's ALWAYS been just a stinkin' lawyer/politician like all the rest of them. Worse, he's a stinkin' SOCIALIST lawyer/politician. I just can't understand the love affair our little leftist friends are having with him. Sure...vote for him if you have far leftist principles but for Pete's sake, don't believe he's some sort of savior.I said from the beginning that he ain't gonna "change" much and every day he's coming coming around to the same ol', same ol'. It just happens that offshore drilling is the latest "change" he's making...LOL.

Obama and McCain are both possessed. Their heads are turning from day to day.

So the choice today if you are determined to vote for one of the above is between a Marxist and a Fascist. A vote for either is a vote for the destruction of America, not to mention how it will impact on you.

"So the choice today if you are determined to vote for one of the above is between a Marxist and a Fascist."

Sad situation...but face it, Ray, ONE of them is going to become president. Which one to you want MOST to be defeated? From my perspective, we're going to be in deeper kemshi if we elect the marxist with the congress we have.

You are half right, Jest. Netanyahu is likely to be Israel's next prime minister (I presume you know what that means). Now imagine McCain with the Congress we have.

Any way I look at it, it's a choice between executioners.

"From my perspective, we're going to be in deeper kemshi if we elect the marxist with the congress we have."

The last 8 yrs are what GOT us into this "kemshi" to start with....you want more of the same??!!

Appalling.

"You are half right, Jest. Netanyahu is likely to be Israel's next prime minister (I presume you know what that means)."

Yeah, Ray...probably inevitable, regardless of who's elected.

"Now imagine McCain with the Congress we have."

It won't be the same congress, there'll be more democrats. I just hope it won't be veto/filibuster proof. I'd still prefer McCain over Obama, not enthusiastically you understand? Look on the bright side, McCain would more likely just be a four-year president, Obama would surely run for reelection.

"The last 8 yrs are what GOT us into this "kemshi" to start with....you want more of the same??!!"

"Appalling" is in the eye of the beholder, Oh AngryOne. In MY opinion (I'm allowed to have one...no?)the kemshi will get DEEPER with Obama as president.

"...the kemshi will get DEEPER with Obama as president."

I'm guessing you said the same thing when Clinton took office.

It won't be the same congress, there'll be more democrats.

Doesn't make a difference. They'll give McCain all the war funding and "anti-terrorist" legislation he needs like they did this term.

It's a shame how many people think there is no other option except to vote for more of the same. What ever happened to personal integrity? You can't stop government crimes, but you don't have to be party to it.

"I'm guessing you said the same thing when Clinton took office."

You guess wrong. Although I didn't vote for him, I didn't see him as putting us into deep kemshi. I was upset with all the impeachment BS because the thought of President Gore caused me some heartburn.

Well as much as I think Obama would be a far better president than McCain he is still a scumbag politician. This is just more proof. I really dislike people who think Obama is "different". The only difference is he is a brilliant politician but still a scumbag.

Flip Flop Flip Flop Flip Flop. Old Flop Ears doesn't know whether to shit or go blind.

Obama, July 31, 2008:

He said that drilling offshore, which he opposes, wouldnt have an effect for years and added McCain is raising hundreds of thousands of dollars from oil executives after backing drilling himself.

"That's not a strategy to solve our energy crisis,-- he said. Its a strategy to get a politician through an election.

Yup - A desperate Democrat politician!

"Mommy, why does Black Jesus lie to everyone?"

"Flip Flop Flip Flop Flip Flop. Old Flop Ears doesn't know whether to shit or go blind"

Fwthom,

you talking about Reagan, Bush I, Clinton, Dole, Bush II, Gore, Kerry, McCain or Obama?

Don't show your utter stupidity by thinking the GOP are clean in any way? The difference is the GOP made the flip flopping which is a core of politics into a political issue which makes them hypocrites.

"It's a shame how many people think there is no other option except to vote for more of the same. What ever happened to personal integrity? You can't stop government crimes, but you don't have to be party to it."

Is it your contention that all that government crime will stop if I vote for Obama or someone other than McCain? I'm reminded of Robert Rourke's book, "Something of Value," where the white character told his black friend who became a Mau Mau that when fighting for change, make sure the change is "something of value." (I paraphrase)

LMAO. I love it. On Iraq, on healthcare, now on energy--the big issues of the day--no difference at all.

Let's see

Bush said he'd never negotiate with Iran. He now negotiates with Iran, something Obama said he'd do all along,

Bush said that, unlike Obama, he was against a timeline for withdrawing troops from Iraq. He now speaks of a 'time horizon'.

On off-shore drilling, Obama said he would support it for the sake of bipartisanship, not because he it to be the best policy.

Tom, there is nothing wrong with changing a view based on the changing circumstances.

Obama's changes, however, seemed to be rooted in his bid for the Presidency. The circumstances were the same before and after his "change" of view.

"Obama's changes, however, seemed to be rooted in his bid for the Presidency."

What are McCain's changes rooted in?

"On off-shore drilling, Obama said he would support it for the sake of bipartisanship, not because he it to be the best policy. "

Oh please Bush and McCain are fucking morons but this doesn't make Obama a saint. He's a scumbag as well. He strongly supports corn subsidies for ethanol which is realized by everyone now that it is not a good alternative fuel and it is unethical because it is creating food shortages and food price inflation around the world. Do you know why he support corn based ethanol? Illinois has a lot corn producers. Scumbag. He is supporting offshore drilling now not for bi-partisan reasons but to suck up to the voters. Again scumbag.

Is it your contention that all that government crime will stop if I vote for Obama or someone other than McCain?

No. It's systematic problem. But like a tried to explain, one doesn't have to be party to it. That's my view.

"Obama's changes, however, seemed to be rooted in his bid for the Presidency."

What are McCain's changes rooted in?

Posted by Danforth at 2008-08-02 11:14 AM

I was responding to Tom W's comments about Bush's changes, not McCain.

As far as your statement, McCain is probably guilty of the same.

Obama. I laugh. I wonder what all the Obama Lovers on digg.com are gonna say.

Where is TonyRoma to cut an paste entire websites into this thread about how awesome offshore drilling is and how Jesus... er... Obama made the right move again...

Can't wait to see all of huffingtonpost on this thread...

Obama simply represents a third party if you will. the Clintons and Bush/Reagans represent the other two. McCain is a Bush.

This is the attraction of Obama.

Once again, the DR faithful can't see the forest for the trees.

When you run for office in todays election process, you believe what you are told to believe. Oil money is big money and it speaks with a loud resounding voice. Kind alike god.

There is no difference between Bush, Bill Clinton, Ronny Raygun, Obama or McShame. They all just do what they are told what to do by the masters. And it's been the same masters doing the telling all along.

If you want to argue about something, why don't you argue about how to fix the system instead of who did what.

Obama simply represents a third party if you will. the Clintons and Bush/Reagans represent the other two. McCain is a Bush.

This is the attraction of Obama.

Posted by furio at 2008-08-02 12:04 PM |

Furio, you've got that right. The Socialist Party. Look at the similarities in his leanings and socialism.

A politician who alters a stance in order to get elected...

....imagine that.

One other thing. The reason I come here is because I believe the immediate future belongs to the left, as well as any opportunity to fix anything (or damage it) because the market is going to repair this extreme right leaning cycle (I call it nazi) we are in.

Wow, scary thought, but I have to agree with RAY's first post.
Unfortunately, because of our current political situation, we only have a choice between 2 mainstream parties. I want the third alternative.
I believe that an energy policy that works will solve most of our other problems. Drilling for domestic oil, nuclear power, a serious commitment to biodiesel and E85, and wind power from the midwest should ALL be a part of the equation.

AnAmerican,

You should pray to god every night before going to bed that Socialism isn't removed in the US. Unless you have at least a few million in the bank you depend on some form of socialism in the US. Of course to get that few million you needed socialism.

you really have no clue the role socialism playing in ensuring equality and opportunity in a society.

you really have no clue the role socialism playing in ensuring equality and opportunity in a society.

Yeah sure. Equality of poverty and no opportunity for everyone. What do you do when you run out of rich to steal from? When there is no more middle class? The last remnants of free market capitalism died in the 70s.

Lost your home? Debt up to your ears? No job?
Can't you just feel the glory of socialism?

Methinks dupes like Furio feel better off if government takes everybody else down to his level.

"What do you do when you run out of rich to steal from?"

Inequality in America is the highest in the industrial world. Who is stealing from who?

Good! I'm glad he's willing to consider a well reasoned compromise.

Posted by Whatsleft at 2008-08-01 11:45 PM

something the Rethugs have no clue how to do...

Ray,

You fucking idiot.

The US has had Socialism since Teddy Roosevelt as a response to a few super wealthy people and a bunch of poor.

You obviously are blind to the wealthy in the UK and Western Europe.

There was no free market capitalism in the 1970s you fucktard. Reagan broked the unions first thing in office. Maggie Thatcher broke the union in the UK in the early 80s as well. It was far more socialist then which was why school and health care were so much cheaper. People literally worked 9-5. Mom could stay at home.

fucking moron.

With Obama flipping and floppung every five minutes he will be further to the right than Dick Cheney pretty soon. But who will still believe anything he says?

I found that this view on socialism mirrors my own. Here is an excerpt:

Socialism is the mechanism which transforms government from its noble role as a protector into a predator and, since the citizens of our fine country seem determined to plow through socialism to its bitter end, we should examine the territory through which these three sad steps lead.

Read the dangers - it's not the direction I want my country to take. We can create a society that is more and more dependent on government to take care of it - that is not the role of government, in my opinion.

Easy there, Furio.

You may not like Ray's position, but he's far from an "idiot".

I've heard Ray's positions on many occasion. Most are based in conservative mythology.

The fact that he and others really don't know a single thing about socialism nor its mechanisms is reason enough to insult them. Seriously how can all men be created equal if they are no t allowed to compete equally for the same opportunities?

"You may not like Ray's position, but he's far from an "idiot"."

Anybody that describes John McCain as a "socialist" and Obama a "Marxist" is an idiot.

Actually Ray and company also don't have a fucking clue how capitalism works either. Just monkeys with their little jobs, little mortgages, little guns, little lives and shitty nights out at Applebees. All the while thinking its the poor on welfare who are stealing all their money. fucktards.

Anybody that describes John McCain as a "socialist"..."

I think he called 'im a "fascist".

The US has had Socialism since Teddy Roosevelt as a response to a few super wealthy people and a bunch of poor.
Posted by furio at 2008-08-02 01:08 PM |

True. It started to take root then. Now it's in full bloom.

It was far more socialist then which was why school and health care were so much cheaper. People literally worked 9-5. Mom could stay at home.

fucking moron.

Talk about being a moron. Welfare and warfare is expensive. Someone has to pay for it.

You obviously are blind to the wealthy in the UK and Western Europe.

You are obviously blind to the wealthy pseudo-capitalists who are dependent on government for their wealth. Just look at the recent bailouts on Wall Street.

We are an age of debt based capitalism brought you you by the Federal Reserve System. Control of the money supply. It's right there in Marx's Communist Manifesto. Look it up. Just don't call it Capitalism.

"I think he called 'im a "fascist". "

He's called him a socialist on other occasions. Basically he just throws around words like socialism, fascism, Marxism, etc., willy nilly to describe anything he doesn't like.

Ray,
Someone has to pay for society. It's not cheap to have infrastructure.

How is your gold doing lately?

Obama wants some off shore drilling--

Guess the air in the tires didn't work out real well.

Didn't he call off shore drilling a scheme --or was it a gimmick?

We do need to drill in addition to all the other plans for energy independence.

Obama was raised by Marxists/Communists--mentored with Marxists/Communists all his life. Frank Marshall Davis comes from his own book. Maybe O is a closet communist?

" Control of the money supply. It's right there in Marx's Communist Manifesto. Look it up. Just don't call it Capitalism."

All capitalist economies have central banking. By this logic capitalism doesn't exist! Of course if the American economy was booming and debt coming down Ray would attribute it to the glories of capitalism.

Actually Ray and company also don't have a fucking clue how capitalism works either.

I know the topic too well. That's why I stocked up on silver coins. We're sinking into the worst economic depression ever. Socialists are living in a Fools Paradise.

All the while thinking its the poor on welfare who are stealing all their money. fucktards.

Any more stealing and everybody will be poor.

Furio continues to confuse the ills of socialism with capitalism. Any time government intervenes in private affairs, it socializes them. Socialism has no means of creating wealth. It only destroys wealth.

"Maybe O is a closet communist?"

All capitalist economies have central banking.

Central banks are government licensed monopolies. Laissez Faire capitalism precludes central banking which is the root cause of business cycles.

Every time socialists fuck up, Nulli blames capitalism.

Of course if the American economy was booming and debt coming down Ray would attribute it to the glories of capitalism.

Yes if it was preceded by increases in saving and production. Cheap money and the accumulation of debt is a socialist nostrum.

" Control of the money supply. It's right there in Marx's Communist Manifesto. Look it up. Just don't call it Capitalism."

Ray you fucking moron economies always need to be managed. The difference is a communist economic policy tries to micro manage everything.

FF for Null--

Great link there An American--

Is that a picture of Obama? Or the Congress lead by the Dems?

Well first on the order is to do away with the Fairness Doctrine--can't have the markets promoting free speech. Must have the gov't controlling free speech. SO there goes the 1st Amendment.

The SCOTUS already did away with property rights--See Kelo decision.

We damn near almost lost the 2nd Amendment.

Windfall profits taxes--then nationalize the oil companies, then nationalize the retailers and then the banks and then Wall Street. (Order may differ).

Higher taxes will kill the job market--people are griping about 5.7%--haven't seen nothing yet if taxes are raised. Poor people do not hire or expand business--people making over 250k do. Squash the ones who hire and you kill the employees.

No curbs on spending--have to have the peoples dependent on the gov't cradle to grave.

Our country is the greatest in the world and we can't afford the likes of Obama in the office.

McCain is marginally better--at least he is not a radical.

Someone has to pay for society. It's not cheap to have infrastructure.

Posted by furio at 2008-08-02 01:28

That can only come from an increase in national wealth that comes from savings and production. Capitalism cannot thrive in this highly regulated and overtaxed environment. As taxes, regulations and inflation have increased, savings and production have decreased. Hardly anyone can afford to save today; too much debt.

How is your gold doing lately?

I don't concern myself with short term fluctuations. The fundamentals argue for a worthless dollar. Gold and silver move in the opposite direction.

"Every time socialists fuck up, Nulli blames capitalism."

Every time capitalists fuck up, like they're doing now, Ray blames socialism.

"Capitalism cannot thrive in this highly regulated and overtaxed environment."

Really Ray? then why have the wealthy gotten far more richer in the past few years than the middle class which actually lost money? That is exactly what capitalism brings. It rewards the wealthy who have CAPITAL to invest.

Duh.

Is that a self-retorting-retort?

Ray you fucking moron economies always need to be managed.

Posted by furio at 2008-08-02 01:39

That's your delusion. Economies have to be kept honest. Market economies are infinitely complex, involving the decisions of every individual. Meddling in those decisions to try to produce some political outcome only produces unseen negative consequences. After a time, they build up to the obvious situation we are in now.

The difference is a communist economic policy tries to micro manage everything.

The differences are getting smaller with each passing day.

"Higher taxes will kill the job market--"

History doesn't back you.

Under Clinton (higher taxes), the DJIA rose 225%. Under Bush, 9%.

"Obama was raised by Marxists/Communists--mentored with Marxists/Communists all his life. Frank Marshall Davis comes from his own book. Maybe O is a closet communist?"

Well Murphy, my over-achieving retarded friend, if someone told me one of the presidential candidates was a secret communist I would automatically think of McCain first. He was in prison by Communists for almost six year most of which was in secret. In less than one year he was broken, tried to commit suicide and wrote a letter condemning America. I say he is a perfect brainwashed Manchurian candidate.

Really Ray? then why have the wealthy gotten far more richer in the past few years than the middle class which actually lost money? That is exactly what capitalism brings. It rewards the wealthy who have CAPITAL to invest.

Again and again you are confusing capitalism with socialism. Some have gotten wealthy the honest way by producing things people will buy, without government help. The majority send lobbyists to Washington to pay Congress to adjust the laws to their favor.

Fact is, the major corporations hate capitalism. Bribes get more bang for the buck.

Again, any form of government interference in market decisions, socializes them. This is why I argue that free market capitalism is long dead.

"Higher taxes will kill the job market--"

History doesn't back you.

Under Clinton (higher taxes), the DJIA rose 225%. Under Bush, 9%.

Posted by Danforth

Clinton had the fortune to take office when the economy was coming out of recession. The following boom masked the effects of higher taxes. Increase taxes today and watch unemployment rise. In effect, that is what inflation is doing today.

"Economies have to be kept honest. Market economies are infinitely complex, involving the decisions of every individual. Meddling in those decisions to try to produce some political outcome only produces unseen negative consequences."

Bah, hah, hah. Economies are always being manipulated by the Wealthy. People get wealthy mostly by cheating. Hard work only goes so far. That's why the government needs to manage things to control the wealthy from uttely dominating everything.

you are a naive old fool who still hasn't learned how the world works.

Every time capitalists fuck up, like they're doing now, Ray blames socialism.

Posted by nullifidian

When capitalists fuck up, they go out of business. When government keeps them in business despite their incompetence, that's socialism.

"The plan also includes energy initiatives Obama has endorsed. "It would repeal tax breaks for oil companies so that we can invest billions in fuel-efficient cars, help our automakers re-tool, and make a genuine commitment to renewable sources of energy like wind power, solar power, and the next generation of clean, affordable biofuels," Obama noted."

This was sort of smart politics because now McCain will be the one who most likely will opposes this bill because it takes tax breaks away from this buddies the oil companies.

If and when this bill passes I hope some of the morons who have been screaming for additional drilling don't forget to watch the gas pumps and let us all know when those prices come down significantly. This was McBush's only real issue and now Obama is willing to compromise on it so I guess McCain will have to find a new phony baloney issue.

I think McCain should come down firmly on the side of motherhood and apple pie and claim Obama hates both.

Furio--I am not referring to a silly movie.

I am referring to the lifetime relationships that Obama has had his entire life.

Maybe you didn't read the link--that is the problem with Obamamites--they don't read and or learn. They are so swept up in this ridiculous emotion over this guy--it's quite pathetic really.

Bah, hah, hah. Economies are always being manipulated by the Wealthy.

Manipulation is the favored agency of manipulation. Nothing new there.

That's why the government needs to manage things to control the wealthy from uttely dominating everything.

My gosh. Talk about being naive. Washington is bought and sold by the wealthy. Does Furio pay attention to the spending frenzy in Washington?

Again I tell you, no manipulation possible if government was separated from commerce, the same way religion is separated.

Can we learn from the past?

But if the government undertakes to control and to raise wages, and cannot do it; if the government undertakes to care for all who may be in want, and cannot do it; if the government undertakes to support all unemployed workers, and cannot do it; if the government undertakes to lend interest-free money to all borrowers, and cannot do it; if . The state considers that its purpose is to enlighten, to develop, to enlarge, to strengthen, to spiritualize, and to sanctify the soul of the people and if the government cannot do all of these things, what then? Is it not certain that after every government failure which, alas! is more than probable there will be an equally inevitable revolution?---Frederic Bastiat, The Law,-- June, 1850

Congress with Pelosi and Reid will never allow drilling off shore.

There will never be a bill that allows this.

Obama is the gimmick here.

And if you saw the c-span coverage fo the oil companies in front of Congress--you would have heard them say the tax breaks are not something they honestly care about.

Although they are using them to create alternatives.

They want the access to open refineries without all the BS lawsuits and the ability to drill--without all the BS lawsuits.

Murphy,

Even if Obama was a closet Communist from the past it doesn't matter. Economic Communism is ending all over the world simply because it doesn't work. The last bastions are North Korea and Cuba with cuba slowly changing.

Seriously you do realize the biggest failings with Communism is with the human race and it is a model that just cannot work with base human selfishness? You treat it as some sort of religion. It's not.

you are a naive old fool who still hasn't learned how the world works.

Posted by furio

From my perspective, I've been trying to explain to a kindergarten kid the line between capitalism and socialism.

WTF. Capitalism is dead anyway.

BTW, Furio. I know too well how the world works. That's why I know where it is going.

Excuse me Furio--it does matter who our elected leaders are and their view of our country and where it should go into the future.

Obama believes in very different radical premises of the country and where he wants to take it.

He treats it as religion and I am not one to sit in the pews like he did for 20 years and do nothing.

Obama must be defeated.

I am going to go get Jerome Corsi's new book--hope it's not behind the counter in a box.

I hear the Politicians and all the Rightie Tighties screaming Drill Drill And Drill Now!

Funny thing is I don't hear this same thing from the Oil Companies.

Why?

Think maybe it has to do with the fact that they are ALREADY MAKING MORE MONEY THAN EVER IN THE HISTORY OF MAKING MONEY?

Obama has looked at the polls and their internal numbers told Obama to change his position with regards to drilling off shore.

He can dress it up with more cafe standards--but they know the American People want this done now.

And if Congress lifted the ban on OFD--and the ooil companies did not do it--there would be hell to pay.

Of course they would drill--means more and more profits when they hit the target.

"Obama believes in very different radical premises of the country and where he wants to take it."

Murphy, you have absolutely no knowledge of history. Obama is very much a centrist. You on the otherhand have been fooled into believing that that anything left of the extreme right is a Commie.

"Clinton had the fortune..."

That doesn't explain away 225% vs 9%. Even if you pin the post 9/11 lows on Clinton, it's still 150%.

He can dress it up with more cafe standards--but they know the American People want this done now.

Why would any American with half a brain want off shore drilling off our coastlines when OPEC will simply cut back on their oil production equal to whatever we pump out of here all in order to keep the prices just as high?

Meanwhile, our coastlines will be ripped up and all the oil will go into the world oil market and what do we get here? nada/zilch -- the same amount of available oil that we had before. You want San Diego's beaches dotted with oil rigs? I don't. Especially when it won't do anything to bring down the HIGH gasoline prices here in the U.S. and you won't even see on bit of difference -- if ANY -- for at least the next 7 years.

You don't really think off shore drilling will bring down the price of gas here when it's really going to be dumped into the world oil market, do you? You DO know that China will, within the next few years when our offshore oil is finally available for use, will by then have sucked up any excess oil that we might have gaind from offshore drilling off OUR coastlines. Stop swallowing the GOP party line.

Ripping up California's coastline won't do a damn thing to lower the price of oil. Not when it will immediately be sucked up by all the new developing nations. Why doesn't Bush stop catering to the Florida Cubans and instead open up oil leases with the Cuban government? Cuba wants to partner with oil companies so let's let our own oil boys do it. Better them getting those oil deposits than Communist China who right now is working on partnering with Cuba. How dumb. Oil to suck up right off our coast in Cuba and the GOP has to cater to the Cubans in Miami.

NO drilling off California's coastline -- not when you can drill off Cuba's coastline instead.

"And if Congress lifted the ban on OFD--and the ooil companies did not do it--there would be hell to pay."

Ridiculous. They aren't drilling now on the land they already lease; where's the hell to pay?

"WTF. Capitalism is dead anyway."

Ray, Ray, Ray. Capitsalism was put into heavy restraint during the Depression. Because the Deprression was caused by unrestrained Capitalists. After WW2 Capitalism was further restrained to keep the average person sedated and happy after a horrible war. Truman did not want tens of millions of pissed off combat vets who felt they fought WW2 for just the rich.

Seriosuly restraints have been lifted off capitalism since Reagan. How you can say Capitalism ended in the 1970s is ridiculous. The 1980s introduced low taxes and cheap credit which turbo charged the earning potential of the rich. Also made suckers out of people like you who competed for the right to get a mortgage to shitty property which in turn made the richer, richer.

Related to your fantasies of the gold standard from Nixon perhaps?

"NO drilling off California's coastline -- not when you can drill off Cuba's coastline instead."

Oh Chris go take a bubble bath to relax.

Maybe I will :)

I love it!

Good for Obama.

He's a very wise man who can see the value of compromise when necessary to get stuff done.

This will really steal the wind from McSames sails.

Brilliant move Obama! One again, beating the republicunts at their own game.

""WTF. Capitalism is dead anyway."

Pure free-market capitalism has never existed and never will. Capitalism is a government program.

Brilliant move Obama! One again, beating the republicunts at their own game.

Posted by COMMONSENSE

do you believe him in that really supports it or because it is an election position he feels he has to take?

"Pure free-market capitalism has never existed and never will."

It did from the Industrial Revolution until about 1930. It brought about child labor in coal mines and factories. The rise of Communism was a lashback by the working man against it. Some can say WW1 and WW2 were spawned from it in ways as well.

" Because the Deprression was caused by unrestrained Capitalists. "

Absolutely correct. Government was vastly smaller in the 20s. That was about the closest to laissez-faire you're going to get.

Obama must be defeated.

I am going to go get Jerome Corsi's new book--hope it's not behind the counter in a box.

Posted by MURPHY at 2008-08-02 02:20 PM | Reply

That should do it!

Pure free-market capitalism has never existed and never will. Capitalism is a government program.

Posted by nullifidian at 2008-08-02 02:49

This guy is living proof that socialism is a mental disease.

Usual worthless ad hominem response from Ray. *Yawn*

Pure free-market capitalism has never existed and never will.
osted by nullifidian at 2008-08-02 02:49 PM

Might be. Here's a confession that boom-bust business cycles are government caused.

Usual worthless ad hominem response from Ray. *Yawn*

Posted by nullifidian at 2008-08-02 03:04 PM

Like you don't do it.

No, Ray. When capitalism was the closest to your ideal, there were more depressions, not less.

". There is no such thing as a "free market."

2. The "middle class" is the creation of government intervention in the marketplace, and won't exist without it (as millions of Americans and Europeans are discovering).

The conservative belief in "free markets" is a bit like the Catholic Church's insistence that the Earth was at the center of the Solar System in the Twelfth Century. It's widely believed by those in power, those who challenge it are branded heretics and ridiculed, and it is wrong.

In actual fact, there is no such thing as a "free market." Markets are the creation of government.

Governments provide a stable currency to make markets possible. They provide a legal infrastructure and court systems to enforce the contracts that make markets possible. They provide educated workforces through public education, and those workers show up at their places of business after traveling on public roads, rails, or airways provided by government. Businesses that use the "free market" are protected by police and fire departments provided by government, and send their communications - from phone to fax to internet - over lines that follow public rights-of-way maintained and protected by government.

And, most important, the rules of the game of business are defined by government. Any sports fan can tell you that football, baseball, or hockey without rules and referees would be a mess. Similarly, business without rules won't work. "

Brilliant move Obama! One again, beating the republicunts at their own game.

Posted by COMMONSENSE at 2008-08-02 02:45 PM

More like following. In all of Obama's changes in position he has been reactionary as apposed to proactive.

Just another example of poor judgment.

commonsense,

can you answer my 2:50?

Ray, Ray, Ray. Capitsalism was put into heavy restraint during the Depression. Because the Deprression was caused by unrestrained Capitalists.

The Federal Reserve created the money that fueled the boom that preceded the bust. Hoover and Roosevelt did everything in their power to keep prices up, only made things worse.

Unstrained capitalists? No man. It's government that has a monopoly on force. Our problems are caused by unrestrained socialism.

Remember Furio, the winners write the history books. I used to believe that bullshit too until I got deeper into economic theory and history.

BTW, this coming Depression promises to be much much worse than the thirties.

"In all of Obama's changes in position he has been reactionary as apposed to proactive. Just another example of poor judgment."

Then how would you characterize all of McCain's changes: torture, tax cuts, abortion rights, campaign finance, etc...?

Governments provide a stable currency to make markets possible. They provide a legal infrastructure and court systems to enforce the contracts that make markets possible. They provide educated workforces through public education, and those workers show up at their places of business after traveling on public roads, rails, or airways provided by government. Businesses that use the "free market" are protected by police and fire departments provided by government, and send their communications - from phone to fax to internet - over lines that follow public rights-of-way maintained and protected by government.

does this equate to government creating markets or rather facilitating the process of the market?

Then how would you characterize all of McCain's changes: torture, tax cuts, abortion rights, campaign finance, etc...?

Posted by Danforth

The same as any politician running for national office......posturing and pandering.

No, Ray. When capitalism was the closest to your ideal, there were more depressions, not less.

Posted by nullifidian at

Every depression has a central bank and fractional reserve banking behind it. Simply, they are counterfeiting, embezzling and Pyramid Schemes. Governments like them because they can get all the money they want without direct taxation.

They always fail. Name one exception.

BTW, this coming Depression promises to be much much worse than the thirties.

Posted by Ray

It's a good thing your precious metals are edible.

In that case, I wouldn't bring it up as an issue. McCain's stance changes are more dramatic, and more far-reaching. Nothing says "pandering" more than making a speech for someone you called "an agent of intolerance", or calling for an idiotic gas-tax holiday which would save pennies, gut the road fund, and exacerbate the problem.

Obama's a left-wing radical!
He's as far right as Cheney!
He's a Marxist!
He's just another capitalist!
He's stubborn!
He's a flip-flopper!
He has no energy plan!
Finally, the dumbass has a good energy plan!
Damn compromiser!
He's a scumbag, no different than every other politician!
The parties are identical!

Methinks you can't all be right. I guess it's all in how you look at it.

Such an angry group. Rather than just whining, let's hear YOUR plans to save America.

This should be good.

CC--you sound like Kennedy--

Yes--we need wind for energy--let's install windmills--

Just not off Hyatis Port

So it's ok to drill off FL but not CA?

You are becoming the minority and it is all sides of the aisle--except the hard lef---that do favor CA OFD.

Have you been to Huntington Beach? Beautiful place, beach and people..great waves.

There is a rig out so far--you have to squint to see it.

There is no "ripping" of the CA coastline.

100 miles off shore is really far away and does not ruin the view--it's still beautiful.

Agreed Danforth,

but both candidates are forced into these decisions. There is no way around it.

if you want to win.

2. The "middle class" is the creation of government intervention in the marketplace, and won't exist without it (as millions of Americans and Europeans are discovering).

Hahaha. Government can't create wealth. It lives off the wealth created by the market economy. Now we are at a time where the market can no longer hide the cumulative affects of intervention.

Governments provide a stable currency to make markets possible.

Meanwhile the currency markets are see-sawing all over the place. The dollar has lost 40 of it's value in eight years, 95% in a hundred years.

I explain this stuff to you over and over again. You always refuses to learn the most fundamental laws of economics. Enough of this topic.

"In all of Obama's changes in position he has been reactionary as apposed to proactive. Just another example of poor judgment."

Then how would you characterize all of McCain's changes: torture, tax cuts, abortion rights, campaign finance, etc...?

Posted by Danforth at 2008-08-02 03:15 PM

A mix of both. But McCain has not been running around claiming a new kind of politics.

"It's a good thing your precious metals are edible."

FF for Eberly.

It's a good thing your precious metals are edible.

Posted by eberly

It'll buy a lot of food. See what worthless paper buys you.

The economic news is quiet now. Anybody would be a fool to believe that the recent bailouts turned the economy around. Capitalism is dead. There is nothing to turn the economy around. Nothing but miles and miles of debt as far as the eye can see.

" Government can't create wealth."

Capitalists can't create wealth without government doing the things listed in my link.

Government created the Internet. How much wealth has that generated so far? Billions? Trillions?

" But McCain has not been running around claiming a new kind of politics."

You're joking, right? The "maverick" has abandoned all his "maverick" positions. He now marches lock-step with Bush with tax cuts, torture, warrantless wiretapping, privatizing SS, abortion rights, and a whole slew of other issues.

"Every depression has a central bank and fractional reserve banking behind it."

Nonsense. The Fed wasn't created until 1913. You can't blame it for the depressions of the 19th century.

It'll buy a lot of food. See what worthless paper buys you.

I know you believe that Ray. I disagree.

What is it like going through life waiting for the world to come to an end?

What is funny is that you are an atheist/agnostic aren't you?

" But McCain has not been running around claiming a new kind of politics."

You're joking, right? The "maverick" has abandoned all his "maverick" positions. He now marches lock-step with Bush with tax cuts, torture, warrantless wiretapping, privatizing SS, abortion rights, and a whole slew of other issues.

Posted by Danforth at 2008-08-02 03:33 PM

No, I'm not joking. When has McCain ever said he's a new kind of politics? Heck, the guys been around forever.

Like Barry said two days ago on offshore drilling "That's not a strategy to solve our energy crisis,-- he said. Its a strategy to get a politician through an election."

Little did he know he was speaking about himself.

"When has McCain ever said he's a new kind of politics? "

Maverick?

Straight-Talk Express?

He made his reputation fighting the Republican powers-that-be. Now he's become one of them, capitulating on all the issues that once made him a maverick. Can you name any issues on which he's out of sync with the Republicans?

The Bank of England was created in 1695. It was the cause of the depressions Marx was familiar with. The US government has had a long flirtation with central banking, formalized in 1913.

At no time in US economic history did the US have a long depression like the 30s. They would last a year or two. Without a gold standard, there is no limit to how much money the Feds can create. From all appearances, they have no inhibitions from causing hyperinflation.

I know it's taboo for you to read Rothbard, but here's a brief history of banking in the US.

"At no time in US economic history did the US have a long depression like the 30s."

Nonsense. Guess you never heard of the "Long Depression."

"A mix of both"

Oh, I get it. It's "poor judgement" when Obama does it, but not when McCain does it.

"Can you name any issues on which he's out of sync with the Republicans?" - DAN

He has swerved a bit right, but he has to in order to actually get Republicans to vote for him.

I think his stance on illegal immigration would be different from the bulk of Republicans. But beyond that I'd say you're correct.

He is neutralizing a potentially popular issue for McCain with this announcement. Frankly, I don't think Obama is lying, but I also don't believe he would ever allow any where near the amount of offshore drilling that McCain would. Which is good enough for me.

"I think his stance on illegal immigration would be different from the bulk of Republicans."

Not the Chamber of Commerce types.

"Government created the Internet. How much wealth has that generated so far? Billions? Trillions?"

Government created the highway system.

government created the postal service.

Government created most of the major ports.

Government created FAA

Government created SEC

Government Created FDA

Government created CDC

Government created Banking system

Government created NASA

Government created electrical standards.

government created FCC

Government created Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac - which allows schmucks like Ray to buy a house.

All means of facilitating the movement of commerce, information, people and money. And helping the little guy.

ALL FORMS Of SOCIALISM

Furio, don't confuse the Government Services bashers. Essential to every right wing ideology is the notion that everything provided by the government other than military protection is a waste of taxpayer money.

Essential to every right wing ideology is the notion that everything provided by the government other than military protection is a waste of taxpayer money.

Not true. Not every right wing ideology believes that.

Then how would you characterize all of McCain's changes: torture, tax cuts, abortion rights, campaign finance, etc...?

This is ignored, because they are used to McCain not knowing what he is talking about.

Obama's every syllable is analysed and questioned and then the flip-flop baloney starts and gets coverage.

Why?

Beacause it's a "story". McCain flips and rversals and errors are old news, boring, like everything else about him, except his campaign's outlandish claims that he is better than Obama at anything.

Then how would you characterize all of McCain's changes: torture, tax cuts, abortion rights, campaign finance, etc...?

This is ignored, because they are used to McCain not knowing what he is talking about.

Posted by sitdown at 2008-08-02 04:28 PM

No, it's ignored because it's not relevant to the discussion.

You guys sound like my kids. "But Daddy! Johnny does a lousy job mowing the lawn too!

Oh wait give us lefties here on the DR a few minutes to shift our positions on this issue so we can agree with Obama like good little Democrat sheeple.

Another flip flop from the wrong position to the right position. I am sure a poll had something to do with this.