Drudge Retort: Red Meat for Yellow Dogs

A professional journal for pediatric nurses has produced an article examining the ethics of infanticide according to the Dutch Groningen Protocol. The Protocol permits the killing of babies in the Netherlands on the judgement of a physician based on "quality of life" criteria. The article, appearing in the May-June 2008 edition of the Journal of Pediatric Nursing, and jointly authored by J. Catlin and Renee Novakovich, talks about the effects of the Protocol on medical ethics in the US.

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"the article implies, countries with government-supported medical systems"

YEAH!

Coincidently, countries with Profit Driven Medical Systems, otherwise known as HMO's, PPO and POS have been doing just this for years! But instead of the impetus being to "make more of the medical system available for more worthy patients" its priority is protecting profits and managerial bonuses!

"In countries with socialized medicine"

HA! As if a board of Directors sitting around quantifying permissible and impermissible treatments isnt already Socialized Medicine--!


Just more evidence to the stupidity of whats left of the Bush Cult!

One poster already, and there is nothing about the termination of pregnancy as a comparable evil. The fetal rights folks are dropping the ball. herm

The "Groningen Protocol" named after a pediatric hospital which admittedly permits doctors to end the lives of babies born with disabilities or terminal conditions seeks to normalize infanticide by bringing the practice out of the shadows and into the light of day. Under this thinking, it isn't the killing that is wrong, but the secrecy.

Secrecy? What secrecy? It has been widely known for years that Dutch doctors kill disabled and dying babies. As far back as 1992, the Dutch Royal Society of Medicine published guidelines to be used in deciding whether to kill a baby, including whether the child would ever be able to live independently, experience "self realization" (being able to hear, read, write, labor) and have meaningful interpersonal relations.

By 1993, as documented in PBS's Choosing Death, three out of eight neonatal intensive care unites in the Netherlands had specific policies, endorsed by the Dutch Pediatric Society, that permitted infanticide by lethal injection.

www.nationalreview.com

So Red...ya nut ...are you for killing defective children in the hospital nursery?


Herm...this is not about abortion. Seems like your life revolves around the issue. You are as obsessed with killing babies in utero as the far right wackos that bomb clinics and kill abortion doctors.

are you for killing defective children in the hospital nursery?

We put down our pets if we feel like their lives no longer have quality. Why should we not have the same compassion for our children?

Ya nut.

We put down our pets if we feel like their lives no longer have quality. Why should we not have the same compassion for our children?

Kinda says it all doesn't it?

Fucking monster.

We also buy and sell our pets based on whatever accidental qualities find pleasing or useful to us.

We slaughter en masse the homeless ones.

No offense, you sick dick, but if that stupid fucking comment of yours is any kind of a lens into your sense of ethics and humanity, you have no business whatsoever in the medical field.

In fact, you have no business existing in Post-Enlightenment Western Civilization.

I'm with Ness. As long as the parents are in agreement.


We put down our pets if we feel like their lives no longer have quality. Why should we not have the same compassion for our children?

Awfully eager to jump onto that slippery slope, aren't you?

What happened to you to make you so vile? It's one thing to be an advocate to abort a fetus. There's no real way to tell if the being has achieved consciousness.

But I get the feeling you really only want to keep the ones you consider worthy. So tell us, Ness, which qualities are you looking for in an infant before you decide it shouldn't draw another breath?


One poster already, and there is nothing about the termination of pregnancy as a comparable evil. The fetal rights folks are dropping the ball. herm

Posted by herm

It is a comparable evil - there HERMIE how's that? Good thing your mother wasn't that evil - or was it?

This really isn't anything new. Numerous states have laws that allow doctor's to pull the plug on patients, even if they themselves or their guardians object. en.wikipedia.org

We put down our pets if we feel like their lives no longer have quality. Why should we not have the same compassion for our children?
Kinda says it all doesn't it?
Fucking monster.


YEAH!

Its better to put them on a machine and then plaster images of them across the nation for cheap political points!


Sincerely

Tom hammerpants-- Delay

"No offense, you sick dick, but if that stupid fucking comment of yours is any kind of a lens into your sense of ethics and humanity, you have no business whatsoever in the medical field."

Yer faux outrage is laughable, if not downright pathetic, loaf-boy.

YEAH!

I seem to remember a Texas Governor signing a bill that empowered medical care facilities with the legal ability to terminate treatment for the unviable in an effort to cut costs!

His name Was GW Bush, and several poor terminally ill children arent alive today because of it!

There are extremes. Several years ago I read a story of a family forced into bankruptcy over hospital bills for an preemie infant barely viable. The hospital insisted on heroic efforts ....against the parents wishes. The baby lived several years... pretty much as a vegetable.
I think that was wrong.

BUT..here they seem to flirt with offing healthy babies with defects that they deem unworthy of life....no value to society.
BIG difference!


Night!

I don't care what people say, euthanasia is here to stay, and it will begin with the most helpless victims with the fewest advocates, infanticide, and then extend to geronticide, and then as resources wane in relation to population, or as the burden of supporting an overly number of superannuated folks impacts the standard of living of the productive, the practicof geronticide will be "justified."

It's noteworthy that ethical positions are relative and faddish, and are accommodated to practical imperatives.

It's a cruel world. Many practices deemed odious are still indulged. Backaways, if a newborn were obviously disabled, then the doctor would just strangle it on his own initiative without causing emotional distress to the parents by requiring them to make the decision.

But our society has become focused on record-keeping as a high value, so we create elaborate systems that result in behavioral changes. Years ago, the doctor would strangle the unfit. And the police would bring a misbehaving child home and have him spanked, or belabor a misbehaving minor criminal. Now such discretion has been discouraged and we have a system that needlessly consumes resources, juvenile courts, oversight of doctors, and what have you.

By the way herm, as an old guy, older than McCain, and a supporter of socialization of medicine, they just may not deem it provident to use resources to keep an old guysuch as you alive, when the money could be better spent providing treatment for AIDS in foreign countries, or inoculating youngsters. Third parties will decide your treatment entitlement and worthiness to survive.

But aren't you an ideologue and willing to make the sacrifice? Does that make you a leftist jihadist, a man willing to sacrifice himself for "the cause?"

People have been killing other people since before Jesus was practicing 3-card monte on Dead Sea tourists.

The ethics of infanticide?

Sorta rolls off the tongue now doesn't it?

Euthanasia and infanticide seem to be different issues here.

Someone with a low quality of life and a bleak short term outlook for survival may elect to do themself in as a way out.But to have a newborn laying in the basket and someone deciding this baby is not for them is off the chart moraly wrong.
No.
The Chinese do it(still?) even though it is against the law.This is because of Chinas two children rule.
The familys in the out laying areas want boys not girls,boys to work the farms when they are old enough.
Is this what it will come down to when deciding to kill a newborn?
It is unbelievable that this would even be discussed as an option.

As per ness g,she is in the medical field.I would like to know the name of the medical establishment she works at.She needs to be fired.
Ghoulish cunt.



I'm with Ness. As long as the parents are in agreement.

Posted by morris at 2008-07-22 02:31 PM | Reply | Flag:
How 'bout someone putting a gun to your head and pulling the trigger.

Any difference there champ?


rwd

Posted by Jomama at 2008-07-22 06:12 PM | Reply | Flag:

ANOTHER USELESS POST BY JOMAMA flag

rwd

How 'bout someone putting a gun to your head and pulling the trigger.


Any difference there champ?


rwd


Posted by rightwingdon at 2008-07-22 06:15 PM


If you can get either of my parents to agree to it, take your shot.

Just more evidence to the stupidity of whats left of the Bush Cult!

mmmm -- redneckshill -- the only thing this has to do with the US is that the article was printed in a US medical jounal. This is taking place in the Netherlands.

Get control of that jerking left knee, boy. It's going to be the death of you.

GOATMAN

Way off topic of this thread, but I was curious what you meant when you said last night you guys don't shower for two weeks but take "Hollywoods" on the rig....

I understand the quality of life issue and essentially believe that infaticide is the more humane option, but fuck -- I get queasy even thinking of it.

I said we didn't take "Navy showers". No, we don't have to go two weeks without a shower. pee uu! *grin*

In the Navy, in order to conserve water, we had to get wet, turn off the water, soap down, and turn the water back on to rinse. When we were in port and had water hooked up, we could take regular showers. We called those "Hollywoods". (don't ask me I didn't make up the name. *g*)

On the rig, we have plenty of water and we get to take "Hollywoods" (except for the time I made a big mistake and accidently dumped over half our potable water overboard. I was persona non grata for a couple of days.)

Ha ha!!

Thanks for clearing that up GOAT

I'm not so up on seafaring hygienic terms, but now I'm rockin' man!

The word "ethics" and "infanticide" don't belong together in the same sentence.

Your baby isn't perfect? Your baby has a medical condition which might require you to have to put in a little more effort than normal in caring and raising the child? If you don't have enough love for your baby enough to take care of him or her no matter how much extra time and effort it takes you, then you don't deserve to have that baby. Nor do you deserve to ever give birth to another baby.

If countries start to allow infanticide then the bar will get continually lower and lower for who qualifies. Are babies born with a non-severe but chronic illness, or a deformed leg, or any perceived physical "defect" all be candidates for infanticide in the coming years?

How about a baby with a lifelong medical condition such as asthma? It's not lifethreatening but does requires some medical care and/or medicine for the rest of the child's life -- do those babies get to die too in order to make life a littel more convenient for the parents?

Do we as a society soon find ourselves willing to get rid of any and all babies who are not born with our view of human perfection? And up to what age will society say we can kill these babies? Will a 5 year old who is diagnosed with epilepsy be able to be euthanized?

Infanticide is wrong. I am adamately against it. It's sick.

Infanticide is wrong. I am adamately against it. It's sick.
Posted by CalifChris

Perfectly stated. Excellent post and I couldn't agree more.

Ness Gadol the monster.

From Roe to Nazism.

A defiled conscience is a terrible thing.

Once we begin to rationalize the extermination of innocent humans we head down a potentially very dangerous path in a supposedly civilized society. The devaluing of human life (whether abortion, infanticide, euthanasia, etc) is wrong. Will we eventually justify exterminating adults because they aren't willing/capable of supporting themselves?

Society's sense of family commitment/responsibility has crumbled over time - look at the single parent rates.

Our most important job as parents is to raise kids... not to do so only if it's a nearly perfect child... for we know the only perfect children are mine. :^)

Wow, you guys sure are easy.

BTW, RWDon, I am not a female. Quit projecting.

In our country, whether to continue care is ultimately not up to the individual or family, it's up to ethic committees. There have been numerous instances (esp. w/premature babies), where the parents want to do everything imaginable to keep it alive, but the ethics committee overrule this and then give the parents 10 days to find a medical facility willing to do so.

Most hospitals are only barely breaking even and I just don't think it would be good policy to force them to loose $15,000/day to keep an infant born at 20 weeks with 0% chance of survival in an incubator. It's all very sad and difficult to deal with on the family level but we only have so many health resources to go around. Choices need to be made and it may not be economically feasible to go to extreme measures in every instance.

en.wikipedia.org

I just don't buy the slippery slope argument. Just because a hospital may "pull the plug" on a 20 week premature baby or a 95 year old, it doesn't mean people are going to start killing babies because they have brown hair. As technology increases, we're going to start living longer and longer, and survival rates for nearly everything are likely to go up.

There will be some serious bio-ethical issues to deal with down the line.

With a half-assed so-called life outside blogging, I've been away, and returned to the DR this morning to an unanswered Johnson inquiry:

"By the way herm, as an old guy, older than McCain, a supporter of socialization of medicine, they just may not deem it provident to use resources to keep an old guy such as you alive, when the money could be better spent providing treatment for AIDS in foreign countries, or inoculating youngsters. Third parties will decide your treatment entitlement and worthiness to survive. But aren't you an ideologue and willing to make the sacrifice? Does that make you a leftist jihadist, a man willing to sacrifice himself for the cause?"

Older than McCain, I do doubt that ANYone past 70 should run for president. I do favor a governmental, single-payer health plan, so I guess that qualifies me as a "socialized medicine" advocate. The question about money to keep me alive better spent elsewhere is a serious one, and concerns me. I guess I'd support a case-by-case basis. If that makes me a lefty jihadist, I'm in good company. Or do I (again) misunderstand your question? I have no problem with third parties making these decisions as long as their choices are not influenced by the profit motive. Enough? herm

The question about money to keep me alive - HERM

The majority of it is not your money HERMIE. How about using your own to keep you alive. The govnt. has wasted money since the begining. More than likely on people such as yourself - you know the kind - no self reliance, no accountability, socialist. Keep trying to bring the country down HERMIE, you and your ilk are doing a good job so far.

There is a big difference in "palliative care" of non viable infants and killing a healthy infant.

"More than likely on people such as yourself - you know the kind - no self reliance, no accountability, socialist. Keep trying to bring the country down HERMIE, you and your ilk are doing a good job so far."

Cidney, you step outside your area of expertise whenever your kindergarten breaks for recess. For what you might begin to comprehend, I've always been MOST self-reliant, more accountable than thou, and you lack even a clue to what a socialist is. I hope to hang in there long enough to bring the country UP from where you and your "ilk" (think Bush, Rove, Scalia) have left it. Pretty goddam low, Cidney. herm

HERMIE, you assume too much if you think I approve of Bush and Rove. As to the accountability part, considering your definition of life, I can guarentee that you are no where near as accountable as I. Socialist.

There it funking is, katieberry is now willing to kill 95 year olds!

(Cue Squirrel Nut Zipper's "Hell)

Actually speaking as a Brit, "infanticide" and "euthanasia" are two different terms, and what the Dutch are doing is "euthanasia". In Britain "infanticide" is a term used for the killing of a child by a mother (I believe the child has to be under the age of two), it carries much milder penalties than does murder because the law tended to realise that women who have just had babies (and up to two years of age) are basically bat-shit crazy cause of the hormones.

As for euthanasia well it has been going on ever since human beings began reproducing, and as someone said still goes on today in some countries (China for example) If the child born was not quite right, (or in the case of the Chinese) female, then they would simply smother it, or bury it in the back yard, or leave it out in the woods to die. I think the Dutch are practicing a much more humane method when the fetus is simply not considered a viable human being.

There are problems with the Chinese method of course, they are now raising a nation of male spoiled brats, who when they eventually reach their 20s and start looking for a mate will not only be such obnoxious little twats that no-one would ever want to marry them but they will find, much to their surprise that there aren't any females around. That will solve the Chinese overpopulation problem right quick and in a hurry.

Finally (lawd I am long winded tonight), in case ya'll haven't noticed human beings have become more and more prone to ailments such as poor eye sight, asthma, allergies etc., ever wondered why that is? My theory is that it is not ONLY because of our reliance on anti-biotics and anti-bacterials (which therefore destroy our natural immune systems) but the "survival of the fittest" mantra is being usurped, whereas the weak and the unviable would previously have died and been allowed to die, now they are kept alive and allowed to breed. Something to think about.

And before you all flame me to death, I am a big fan of mother nature, I always think she knows best, while I hate to see a Lion bring down an Antelope, it is the way of the world. Miscarriages are simply mother natures way of aborting an unviable fetus, there has got to be a point where the doctors say "enough is enough" this child was never meant to live.

"I can guarentee that you are no where near as accountable as I. Socialist."

Goddammit, "guarenteer," let's have an accountability duel. Fifty paces? Ol' Cid, you say *I* assume too much. I don't recall EVER posting a definition of life. but have at it, baby. Orate! herm

EVER posting a definition of life. but have at it, baby. Orate! herm

Posted by herm

And BLT vents the same old bullshit. NO lives are taken, BLT. herm

Posted by herm at 2008-07-23 05:09 PM

Care to explain this statement then - liar.

You are my favorite bitch HERMIE! Thanks for letting me have so much fun on the DR.

Little Brit,

That's funking great, Brit.

More justification of the unthinkable.

Y'all just wait a few years, we'll see what the God of Providence stands for and what He won't.

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