Drudge Retort: Red Meat for Yellow Dogs

Russian bombers capable of carrying nuclear weapons could be deployed to Cuba in response to U.S. plans to install a missile defense system in Eastern Europe, the Russian newspaper Izvestia reported Monday.

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Those Ruskies are getting frisky over this missile shield. I think W needs to take another look into Pootie's eyes and see if he sees a crazy man in there.

"While they are deploying the missile shield in Poland and the Czech Republic, our strategic bombers will already be landing in Cuba," Izvestia quoted the source as saying.

wonder if we'll have another "kennedy-type" debacle?

And what kind of "debacle" was that? I await your erudite thesis with eager anticipation.

This ought to be good.

what's good for the goose, I guess.

But wait, this can't be, REagan won the Cold War.....

Now that Russia is making money off oil they are starting to flex their military muscle.

C'mon, cranc-don't be shy...how DID Kennedy mess it up?

Yeah, no shit Cranc. What exactly went wrong during those days in October?

Don't you all remember? The Soviet Union launched its full nuclear capability against us. We retaliated, and millions of people were incinerated, millions more died of radiation sickness.

Geez, it was in all the papers.

I remember the Cuban Missile Crisis. We were actually told to put our heads under our desks in the event of a nuclear attack, our neighbors decided to build a fallout shelter instead of a pool. My mom filled up the bathtub so we would have drinking water. We lived near Melbourne Florida at the time and felt that we would be one of the first to go. We watched the UN meeting on TV and watched as the US presented the U2 spy plane pictures of the missiles in Cuba. It was a very tense time.
We were actually quite scared that the end of the world was imminent and even the Dobie Gillis TV show did an episode where Maynard G. Krebbs (who later became Gilligan) who played a beatnik, walked around going "boom, boom, kaboom."

Who cares if there are missiles in Cuba? The technology today is far different than 47 years ago. They could have a boomer parked off our shores and to the same damage.

Part of the cause of the Cuban Missile Crisis was the presence of American Jupiter missiles in Turkey, parked right at the Rooskies back door. They didn't seem to like that much. And the solution to the Cuban Missile Crisis involved (a) the US promise not to invade Cuba, (b) the removal of Soviet missiles from Cuba, and (c) sooprise: the removal those Jupiter missiles from Turkey (although that was a secret part of the agreement that didn't come to light until later). The Rooskies are just showing that they, too, have options and dont' want to be pushed around. Under Putin they started getting more assertive internationally than during the Yeltsin period. They do seem sensitive to what they perceive as challenges. But, then, so does the U.S.

Now that Russia is making money off oil they are starting to flex their military muscle.

At Bush's 130 a barrel, it's all fun and games for them. They just sold a billion worth of weapons to Chavez, too.

Fortunately, we'll have a Democratic President next year who'll clean everything up.

Again.

If I were POTUS, I would build the missle shield in Russia.

Future World Thom

If you were POTUS the Secret Service would put you down like a rabid dog.

If THIS doesn't scare the living cr** out of everyone on BOTH sides of the aisle it sure as hell ought to! The very thought of someone like Shrub or McBush trying to handle a crisis of this magnitude just makes me go looking for those old bomb shelter plans my father had drawn up in the early 1960s. Deja vu all over again except this time we could have a very different outcome if one of those buffoons is, God forbid, in charge of negotiations.

"While they are deploying the missile shield in Poland and the Czech Republic, our strategic bombers will already be landing in Cuba," Izvestia quoted the source as saying.


Posted by taxman

Seems a little anitquated and fruitless though... wouldn't a bomber just be quickly shot down if it enetered United States airspace? Seems like Russia is shitting themselves over this missile shield when it has nothing to do with them... We don't have a system yet that can come anywhere near protecting us from Russia's nuclear arsenal, so I don't get what their problem is...

The very thought of someone like Shrub or McBush trying to handle a crisis of this magnitude just makes me go looking for those old bomb shelter plans my father had drawn up in the early 1960s.

Obama has 17 minutes experience at the Federal level... you think he's qualified to deal with it?

Oh wait, he was editor of the Harvard Law Review... right I forgot... 100% qualified and ready.

For decades the Russians have had SSBN's deployed along both coasts of the United States. The statement that they may deploy bombers to Cuba is just for show. Those bombers would be just a red herring because they know not a single one would ever drop a bomb on U.S. soil. The REAL threat would be the SLBM's from those subs and THEY have been there for many, many years.

wouldn't a bomber just be quickly shot down if it enetered United States airspace?

One would hope, but then again it wouldn't have to travel that far to get to Miami, New Orleans, and other cities on the Gulf and in Florida.

What I don't get is if this is such a great missile defense system and makes the world safer, why not give the technology to Russia. We could work together to better the system and essentially make all other countries with nukes obsolete.

What I don't get is if this is such a great missile defense system and makes the world safer, why not give the technology to Russia.

The F-22 and F-35 fighters are going to be the top two fighter planes in the world... should we give that technology to Russia as well?

The goal right now is that the missile shield protects us from assholes in Iran and Korea and such... hopefully as the technology becomes more advanced and we learn more about how to make a better system, then the goal goes to stopping larger countries like China... and eventually Russia.

If this system could render other nations ICBMs obsolete then there will be no need for them anymore, and we can seriously talk about disarming our nukes... That is how you get rid of them... Not Obama's "What if we all just got rid of our nukes and looked at rainbows," idea...

Obama has 17 minutes experience at the Federal level... you think he's qualified to deal with it?

Oh wait, he was editor of the Harvard Law Review... right I forgot... 100% qualified and ready.

Posted by Rob_The_A_Hole at 2008-07-23 10:08 AM | Reply |

Most definitely, when compared to an old senile relic from the cold war.

The very thought of someone like Shrub or McBush trying to handle a crisis of this magnitude just makes me go looking for those old bomb shelter plans my father had drawn up in the early 1960s.


Bush would just cave in to them, as he did to NK. Mcsame would talk about being shot down and threaten to attack Spain.
###
Obama has 17 minutes experience at the Federal level... you think he's qualified to deal with it?
You thought a deserter who bankrupted two Texas oil companies was qualified to do more than fall off a Bike. By comparison, Obama is light years ahead of Bush. Mcsame got shot down 40 years ago. Other than triple dipping into the Treasury, what does that qualify him for? he's been consistently wrong about Iraq, so definitley not military leadership.

he's been consistently wrong about Iraq, so definitley not military leadership.

Didn't Obama just say he's seeing progress in Iraq after some time of saying the Surge isn't working?

The F-22 and F-35 fighters are going to be the top two fighter planes in the world... should we give that technology to Russia as well?

No but technology that renders nuclear rogue nations obsolete can and should be shared with other responsible nations - Great Britain, France, Germany, Russia, etc. It is a step towards ending the threat of nuclear attack. Of course, you would still have to worry about dirty bombs and the like.

What does it matter to us if they have bombers in Cuba? That bomber can't do anything their subs or missiles can do.

Don't let that keep you from spotting your panties though.

You know what I meant.

No but technology that renders nuclear rogue nations obsolete can and should be shared with other responsible nations - Great Britain, France, Germany, Russia, etc.

I think Russia would quickly turn around and give that technology to some of those rogue nations, and they would especially give it to China. Hell Russia is part of the problem with Iran...

Of course, you would still have to worry about dirty bombs and the like.

Posted by taxman

Absolutely... suitcase nukes, or just regular ones being smuggled in will always be a problem... plus Chem and Bio weapons would still be around, but I don't understand people's opposition to a missile defense system (obama)... sure there are other ways we could be attacked, but why does that mean we have to halt work on preventing another likely form of attack?

Russia is a fucking dump. So is Cuba. Neither of them would ever step to this.

From Obama's website:

National Missile Defense: An Obama administration will support missile defense, but ensure that it is developed in a way that is pragmatic and cost-effective; and, most importantly, does not divert resources from other national security priorities until we are positive the technology will protect the American public.

Basically he is saying he supports a missile defense system but won't waste money on a program like the "Star Wars" program.


That bomber can't do anything their subs or missiles can do.

Excellent point.

Basically he is saying he supports a missile defense system but won't waste money on a program like the "Star Wars" program.

See when I read that, I read that its funding is getting heavily slashed... "and, most importantly, does not divert resources from other national security priorities." That's where I have a problem with Obama... missile defense is a national security priority. Obama is going to cut the program...

"Basically he is saying he supports a missile defense system but won't waste money on a program like the "Star Wars" program."

That's what a believer would say. A realist would understand that the first clause in the sentence is there to sound tough, and the rest of it implicitly explains that he doesn't plan to fund it.

I think Russia would quickly turn around and give that technology to some of those rogue nations

Again, what is wrong with this? The more nations that can prevent a nuclear attack, the better. I think you are worried that the US missile capabilities will be hampered, but my response to that is you can't have your cake and eat it too. Stated otherwise, you cannot expect other nations to sit idely by as you take away their power to use nukes, yet retain your power to attack them with nukes. I don't think the hamfisted diplomacy the Bush administration has used in the past would work in this type of scenerio.

A-Hole, if you are asking whose diplomatic skills (needed to avoid a nuclear confrontation) I have more confidence in then definitely, I go with Senator Obama. Shrub can't talk and walk at the same time and McBush doesn't know what century he is living in. I believe Senator Obama not only has the intelligence to negotiate, he will also surround himself with people of intelligence who will be qualified to properly deal with situations like this without diving for the Red Button.

As for how President Kennedy handled the first Cuban Missile Crisis, if he had not IGNORED Premier Krushchev's second cable, we probably would have been slinging missiles at each other. He had the diplomatic skills, and his advisors had the skills, that we needed desperately at that time and in that place and situation. I believe Senator Obama will display similar talents.

Again, what is wrong with this?

Because those nations can then analyze what the defense system can do, and try to exploit any holes or weaknesses in it.

I think that statement is painfully clear - if it work then it gets funding, if it doesn't work then no funding. So much money is wasted on useless military programs that it is refreshing to see someone want to crack down on the waste.

Joe, that "believer" bullshit is just that.

Because those nations can then analyze what the defense system can do, and try to exploit any holes or weaknesses in it.

I never suggested giving away an imperfect product.

"...makes me go looking for those old bomb shelter plans my father had drawn up in the early 1960s."

Posted by DawnGlo

I have a bomb shelter in the basement of my house. Legacy of the paranoid 60s. The floor and two walls are the cement foundation of the house. The other two walls are constructed of large concrete blocks with a couple of closeable air vents along the bottom. The ceiling/roof is composed of 2" x 8" rafters spaced about 12 inches apart, layered with wood planking and layered on top of that with concrete wall cappers. Enter through a steel door and walk down a short, narrow hallway into the 10' x 10' shelter.

Stays a constant 68 degrees F.

Would make a marvelous wine cellar.

Vent it to the outside and I could do some hydroponics.

Would make a good vault for all my treasures, if I had any that is.

Is probably a good tornado shelter.

Would make for a better tomb than shelter in the event of a nuclear strike.

Other than being used for miscellaneous storage, it is wasted space.

Removing it would be much more work than it took to install it.

Tax,
The whole idea of the military is to have superior weaponry. We want to have counters to their weapony and we don't want them to have counters to ours.
Sharing that info with anyone other than The Brits (and even them) is a bad idea.

Giving them that technology then enables them to render it useless by reverse engineering it and finding holes in it so they can exploit them. Once they do that it's back to square one.

if it work then it gets funding, if it doesn't work then no funding.

It does work!! Why is it the only way doubters will believe that the system can work is if we are actually attacked with ICBMs and it knocks them all down... That test isn't going to happen... but that doesn't mean the system doesn't work and can't be made a hell of a lot better.

Let's be honest about this... the Missile Defense idea was really hammered home on America by Reagan and that is why Democrats are so steadfast against it... be honest...

Damn A-hole, nice post.

"I think that statement is painfully clear - if it work then it gets funding, if it doesn't work then no funding. So much money is wasted on useless military programs that it is refreshing to see someone want to crack down on the waste."

To repeat a favorite liberal argument, how will you know whether it works unless you fund it?

It's hilarious to watch you pretend as though Obama would be cutting any of this for the sake of "cracking down on government waste." I had no idea he was a fiscal conservative - I can't wait to see his other plans.

It doesn't work Rob. That's why the Russians don't care about it and aren't paying any attention to it. Oh wait...

Check out the transcripts of the deliberations of JFK and his civilian and military advisors during the Cuban Missile Crisis and you'll find a POTUS who probed deeply into others' suggestions and assumptions in order to come up with a credible response designed to render moot the going-to-war option, which was clearly prepared to take.

(There's an interesting piece on "Slate" about some disputatious goings on relative to some of the transcriptions of those tapes, but not to the overall message: www.slate.com)

"The whole idea of the military is to have superior weaponry. We want to have counters to their weapony and we don't want them to have counters to ours."

Hmmmmm... I remember being "beat up" fairly badly last week about the F-22 deployment.

"What do we need the F-22 for? Who are we going to use it against?"

Hmmmmm...


It doesn't work Rob. That's why the Russians don't care about it and aren't paying any attention to it. Oh wait...

Posted by 101Chairborne

Nah, they're not worried about it at all... they're just laughing in Moscow at how much we are wasting on this unproven system. In fact this is their plan to bankrupt us... make us think they think that we think that we can knock down their missiles so we spend and spend when we could be using that money to fund national healthcare and puppies.

To repeat a favorite liberal argument, how will you know whether it works unless you fund it?

So we should keep on funding Star Wars to this day even though we know it doesn't work? That thinking is part of the problem. Do you understand that many military leaders have no job if their project gets cut, thus they have to come up with tweaks to continue to receive funding even if they know these tweaks will produce little or no improvement?

Rob, I am all for a missile defense system, and I am for funding as long as it is producing results. We have tested this current defense system, and it has produced encouraging results. As long as we keep on showing improvement under the current system I have no problems throwing money at it. Hell, I would rather throw money at that program rather than some assinine "midnight basketball" program. Moreover, I do give Ronald Reagan credit for pushing the missile defense system, but that doesn't mean that Star Wars didn't turn out to be bogus.

JFK was a "POTUS who probed deeply into others'"

made me laugh...

Zot,
Who was beating you up over it and why?

Used "rather" twice there in that second paragraph. I apologize for my poor grammar.

Joe, while you are here (and sorry to sidetrack), do you know any good international trade/maritime law sources? I am trying to determine whether, under U.S. and International (UN) law, a cargo ship flying the flag of a given country is considered "territory" of the flag state.

I will cut tens of billions of dollars in wasteful spending. I will cut investments in unproven missile defense systems. I will not weaponize space. I will slow our development of future combat systems.

~Barack Obama

If I were in charge of the F-35 program I would get my people working round the clock to get as much done before January 20... because that program and a lot of others are royally fucked in an Obama admin... and yes that includes Missile Defense.

IMO the biggest threat we face is serious weapons such as 'small nukes' (suitcase nukes don't exist), dirty bombs, etc. being smuggled into our country and then detonated.

No nation-state with any sense of self-preservation is going to launch a first-strike against the U.S. It just ain't gonna happen.

That said, we are far from being free from attack. Our enemies - yes, we do have enemies - are far more likely to put WMD's into the hands of surroates (terrorist groups, etc.) and then let these stateless entities do their dirty-work for them.

IMO the biggest weakness in our defense is the CIA. Given that we are the lone superpower in the world, ALL actions against us will be covert with the tracks carefully covered.

The requirement that our CIA operatives be fluent in English is asinine. We need to identify potential spies from abroad who can not only blend in but can be reasonably relied upon to remain patriotic to this country. We also need to drop some of the PC response to espionage. It's a dirty game, but a critical one nonetheless. At times, expediency will have to trump 'rules'. This is where the middle-ground is crucial. On the one hand, we can't have operatives 100% above the law. We've been there and done that and have reaped what we have sown. By the same token, we can't handcuff our field agents either. In such an aggressive world, a degree of ruthlessness is a necessity. Now, this reality tends to upset the self-righteous, nevertheless I don't give a shit.

Now more than ever, we need a top-flight intelligence organization. The CIA has never even come close. It's failures way overshadow its successes.

What is truly tragic is that this reality has been recognized during the CIA's earliest days. Ike recognized it and he put, too much IMO, faith into the Dulles brothers (Allen as CIA director and Foster as Sec. of State) to pull it off. As ineffective as these 2 were, the agency only became more ineffective post-Dulles.

Personally, I think we are at conflict with ourselves. The secrecy necessary to run and maintain a successful intel agency is at direct conflict with the transparency that our system of governance requires.

What scares me most is the LONG-histrorical trend we are witnessing. Throughout historical warfare, the barbarians have always triumphed ultimately against the civilized.

McCain knows this. He will formulate policy appropriately.

Obama? I don't know.

Best case scenario is that he understands the threat we face and has the 'nads to formulate a responsible policy to deal with this. Furthermore, that he has the courage to shirk the far-left for the betterment of this country. On this front his ball-licking syncophants should help out.

"but that doesn't mean the system doesn't work and can't be made a hell of a lot better."

True.

But...

You eventually design and deploy one hell of a missile defense system. It has 98% efficiency in tracking incomings, identifying decoys, and destroying MIRVs. 98% is pretty damn good.

The enemy has just launched 1000 ICBMS at the US, each capable of delivering 10 MIRVs. Your most excellent system takes out 98% of the incomings. Cheers resound. Yaaaaayyy!!!

Uhm... What about the 200 that made it through?

D'oh!!

Rob, I agree with Obama as to the wasteful spending. Regarding militarizing space, haven't we entered into a treaty saying as much? I could be wrong and will have to research.

"Zot,
Who was beating you up over it and why?

Posted by 101Chairborne

T'wasn't you. The usual suspects in this forum. You know who they are. Very expensive high tech versus less expensive low tech in large numbers. The obvious argument about unmanned drone fighters (yet to be produced, let alone deployed) versus manned combat aircraft. Typical yammering about how the F-22 is just another cash cow for the defense contractors to make Big Bucks of the taxpayers. And on and on yadayadayada.

You're statement about superior weaponry brought this back.

Found it Rob:

Towards the end of 2000, the United Nations General Assembly had a vote on a resolution called the Prevention of Outer Space Arms Race.-- It was adopted by a recorded vote of 163 in favor to none against, with 3 abstentions. The three that abstained were the Federated States of Micronesia, Israel and the United States of America. (You can see the details from a U.N. press release, together with a list of countries that voted, were absent and so on.)

Seems a little anitquated and fruitless though... wouldn't a bomber just be quickly shot down if it enetered United States airspace?

rob-russkies got ALCMs too. And given the way Bush handled the 9-11 airliners, the Russkies would be re-fuelling in Ohio before he could get an armed interceptor in the air.

Except, of course, for the 20 squadrons escorting AF 1 to Cornhole Nebraska.

Zot and 101,

I have looked around on quality vs quantity regarding military forces, spending and such.

Once of the answers that intrigued me was, quality at the tactical level, and quantity at the strategic level. Does that make sense?

The enemy has just launched 1000 ICBMS at the US, each capable of delivering 10 MIRVs. Your most excellent system takes out 98% of the incomings. Cheers resound. Yaaaaayyy!!!

A nation with thousands of nukes holds true to MAD... which we all know is "Mutually Assured Destruction." Russia and the United states will never fire nukes at each other because neither country can win.

But let's apply your scenario to a hypothetical crazy ass Muslim nation that doesn't care about the reply from America because they are sacraficing themselves for Allah... we'll call them Schmiran... then isn't it a good idea to have a defense system?

The three that abstained were the Federated States of Micronesia, Israel and the United States of America.

Good for us... there are some really cool ideas for using space to be able to quickly strike... kinetic weaponry is really interesting. Bascially we make our own meteors... "Rods From God."

My concern is that the technology will fall into the wrong hands, but then again, if other countries, namely China, are doing the same then we have to protect ourselves.

Big to-do about nothing.

This entire episode is a typical Russian PR move. They aren't concerned by the missile shield per se, but by the psychological effect it has on the ex-USSR nations and on their immediate neighbors. Russians want to continue to be able
to bully those nations. However, anything which can give those nations confidence that the West will stand by them gives them confidence to stand up to Russia.

This move by them is also a PR move to the world, stating that they are as big a military force as we are. That they can, and will, stand up to us. That they are the world's counter to us.

Russians know very well that no effective missile defense system will be created for many years to come, if ever. And if/when it does, it will still be essentially ineffective towards them. Not only because it can't stop all the missiles they would be able to shoot, but also because they will have spent the time coming up with countermeasures sufficient to make such a system at least partially ineffective - and that's all they need. And therefore I think it would be a great idea to give the Russians our system. Then they can concentrate on trying to make it work effectively, thus limiting research into foiling it. And wasting _lots_ of money doing that (like we are). Yep, preparing for the previous war.

As for it being a deterrent against terrorists, no expert takes that idea seriously. Terrorists arent states, with stationary missile sites which you can focus on, like we do against Russia and they do against us. A missile shield is not a bubble that sits over a country. It's a tracking system which needs as much tracking time and info as possible. Pocket nukes, mobile missile launchers, etc. don't allow that.


How is this helping global warming OR Michelle Obama's kids????


FACT!

As for it being a deterrent against terrorists, no expert takes that idea seriously

No one has ever said that the Missile Defense shield will deter against terrorists.

Russians know very well that no effective missile defense system will be created for many years to come, if ever.

Typical liberal bullshit showing like I said earlier, they refuse to even consider a missile defense shield because its basically Reagan's baby... if Carter or Clinton had come up with the idea you'd be all for it... typical hackery.

Why are we spending millions of dollars to protect eastern Europe? Why are we developing weapons systems which will never be used? Our roads and bridges are crumbling. We are at a greater risk of dying due to infrastructure weakness here than from a nuclear attack from Russia. Our anit-missile system could only protect us from a minor power, either of the two largest major powers could overwhelm it and destroy us anyway as we could them. Sorry folks, but I'm tired of giving our tax dollars to defense contractors who, as yet, have not even come close to protecting us from the only real threat we face which is terrorism. Though I disagree with Jeff about much, our CIA is probably a more important deterrant to terrorists than any missile system ever will be.

We are at a greater risk of dying due to infrastructure weakness here than from a nuclear attack from Russia.

Nobody has ever said that we are at risk of nuclear war with Russia recently, and no one has ever said the current system will stop Russia.

Our anit-missile system could only protect us from a minor power

Yeah... that's kind of the point at the moment.

the only real threat we face which is terrorism

Posted by danni

That's our only threat... really? That's it huh? So at no point in the future of the United States of America will we ever face a foe other then terrorists. Good to know, Doc Brown. If that's the case then its time to shut down every Navy base and decommision every ship, since terrorists don't really have any navy to speak of... Along with an assortment of weapons, planes, satelites and such that have nothing to do with terrorism. Yup, that's it... we will only fight terrorists from now on, so shut it all down everyone...

"Typical liberal bullshit showing like I said earlier, they refuse to even consider a missile defense shield because its basically Reagan's baby"

Ah, no. It is based on the way the tests are done, their success/failure, and what caused the failure. Every scientist and person knowledgeable about what is involved in shooting down a missile can reel off a list of technical/technological problems involved. The question is, will the end result justify the cost? That is the focus of my, and many other peoples, opposition to it. The issues which supporters categorically dismiss with the usual retoric about how science keeps improving. So, I say, lets wait until we are at least close to such science. After all, noone is threatening to launch a strike against us any time soon.

So far, after all the years of trying, we can sometimes shoot down a missle if we can calculate _exactly_ where it will be at a _precise_ time. Long way to go before we can improve on that. Then we need to be able to deal with all of the distraction-- objects which will inevitably be part of any incoming missile launch.

So, what of this is because it is "Reagans baby"?

"Our anit-missile system could only protect us from a minor power"
"Yeah... that's kind of the point at the moment."

Which minor power are we protecting ourselves from - one that we need a missile shield for?

Future World Thom

Posted by fwthom

So-that's what your handle stands for....cheeses-of-Nazareth!

My middle name is Thomas. Since you're doing soooo much to ruin it-why don't you legally change your name to George W. Bush-there isn't much more damage that can be done to that name.

You're right FYI its hard and expensive, we should quit... that's the American spirit!

The question is, will the end result justify the cost?

Are you shitting me? If a nuclear missile is knocked from the sky that would have olbliterated NYC or LA or any other major American city how could you say anything but "yes, it was worth it?"

Which minor power are we protecting ourselves from - one that we need a missile shield for?

Posted by fyi

Just because there isn't one now, that means there never will be? North Korea, Iran, Pakistan (if we ever have a fallout), etc are nations I don't want with the ability to strike us and though they can't now that doesn't mean 5-10-20 years from now they won't be able to... So why sit around with our thumbs up our asses waiting for that day and then wondering what to do. Why not get something ready now, and then if it ever happens we'll be prepared?

"So at no point in the future of the United States of America will we ever face a foe other then terrorists."

So the answer is to spend mega bucks preparing for the previous war? Shouldn't we learn lessons from history?

IMO, we need to _really_ start recognizing the present day world and the type of threats it poses. Then prepare for them. Missiles aren't one of them. No nation is willing to face the rebuttal we would impose were they to launch a missile strike. _That_ is out missile shield.

And by the way FYI you make a lot of bold assertions about how it far this system is from being ready... how the fuck do you know? Are you an engineer on the project(s)? Do you have some inside information? Please, share with all of us how you know the system is still in its infancy...

So the answer is to spend mega bucks preparing for the previous war?

What the fuck are you talking about "previous war." How do you know in the coming years countries like NK or Iran won't develop missiles that can hit us?

No nation is willing to face the rebuttal we would impose were they to launch a missile strike. _That_ is out missile shield.

Posted by fyi

Bullshit... There are plenty of nations whose citizens have no problem with dying for Allah, one of those nations has a leader who feels exactly that way. You have no way of knowing the intentions or state of mind of the leadership of nations in the future...

Rob, so your contention is that cost justification should not be a factor? As long as it is a military endeavour, it should get top priority? Nice, but I do not agree.

Your argument re NYC is specious - do you guarantee that when the shield is completed, it will stop any missile attack from destroying NYC? If you can make that claim, I will agree. However, I have never read any expert on the matter making that claim. _That_ is the biggest argument against the missile shield.

"From Obama's website: National Missile Defense: An Obama administration will support missile defense, but ensure that it is developed in a way that is pragmatic and cost-effective; and, most importantly, does not divert resources from other national security priorities until we are positive the technology will protect the American public."

That is the new and improved version of this quote:
Obama: "I will cut investments in unproven missile defense systems. I will not weaponize space. I will slow our development of future combat systems."

But it is not a flip flop. It is unifying his positions.

Rob, so your contention is that cost justification should not be a factor?

It should be... what will cost more, a missile defense shield or the deaths of millions and the destruction of a major united states city?

However, I have never read any expert on the matter making that claim. _That_ is the biggest argument against the missile shield.

Posted by fyi

Its got to be the most retarded argument I've ever heard anyone bring up here... no I can't guarantee that it will stop every missile 100% of the time, but can you guarantee it will fail the majority of the time when its operational? Can you guarantee that if someone were to launch a nuclear missile at Los Angeles it has a better chance of survival without a missile defense program?

You and Danni for some silly reason can't seem to see past next week... you think terrorism is our only problem so we should focus everything on that... fuck that... that's how you get hit with something you weren't expecting.

Rob, re "my bold" assertions - they arent "mine. Read the literature about the tests and then get back to me.

The "previous war" concept is the one that has been prevelant in every military probably since the first war. The military always reacts to negative aspects of the last war they fought. Again, do some reading of history. BTW, I don't care whether any nation will develop missiles capable of hitting us. I do know that our only real defense is to stop them from wanting to. Again, a missile shield isn't that answer.

Re your crap about "dying for Allah", it is just that, crap. When Iraq, during their war with Iran, started hitting Tehran with missiles, the Iranian leaders very quickly sued for peace. Not indicative of someone willing to "die for Allah". _That_ is what I base my view on. Just like the Russians during the Stalin/Khrushchev/Brezhnov days were convinced they could survive a nuclear war against us. And really wanted to have one. Yet were convinced not to.

The object in dealing with the world is to see things through the worlds eyes, not through how _you_ think the world thinks. A concept that so many here in the USA just do _not_ grasp.

that's how you get hit with something you weren't expecting.

Posted by Rob_The_A_Hole

If you don't expect it, how can you know what you're supposed to defend against. What's a bigger risk than getting hit by a nuclear missile from a foreign power is a nuclear reactor being bombed with conventional methods... like Indian Point, in which event, Rob, you and I are F***ed.

Rob, I do not need to guarantre it will fail the majority of the time. All that is needed is that a few missile get through, there go the cities. It then becomes a crap-shoot system. No guarantee, not worth the money. I am not willing to support huge expenditures of money so you can curl up with your security blanket - which is not guaranteed to protect me.

You can't seem to get through your head that everybody out there knows what we have, what we are trying to do. And they are planning to get _around_ that, not through it. The Chinese, for instance, aren't planning to build a missile system, they're planning on how to negate it.

You tell me what the next threat will be and I will agree to view your solution. If you tell me you are preparing for the next "USSR", I won't agree. And _that_ is exactly what the MDS is. To me, the missile defense system merely sounds like a wish list. To me, that does not make the system worthwhile.

One could argue that the missile defense system is nothing more than a grab bag for the MIC.

Please note also the rob the cornhole work in defense contracting in some capacity.

"You and Danni for some silly reason can't seem to see past next week..."

I think it is you who can't seem to see past next week when the government will be broke, we will have a huge Navy we can't afford to deploy, missile defense systems to protect us from non-existent enemies....sort of like another former super power I used to know.

Eisenhower was right, are you going to try to argue with him Rob???
He has only been proven more and more correct with each passing decade since he made that famous farewell speech. We should have listened to him then.

"Please note also the rob the cornhole work in defense contracting in some capacity.

Posted by Salaryman "

I thought he just stayed home changing diapers.

Please note also the rob the cornhole work in defense contracting in some capacity.

Posted by Salaryman

Shhhhhhhhhh....

Eisenhower was right, are you going to try to argue with him Rob???

Fuck yeah I will...

Mr. Eisenhower, you were completely wrong. I'll wait for your response...

Other political competitions I'll get in: Driving through Dallas, keeping a fat chick quiet, walking through a kitchen, Spelling bee with Ted, etc...

You tell me what the next threat will be and I will agree to view your solution

Let's say Iran gets a nuke in the next 5-10 years... not all that unrealistic right? Okay, its doubtful that in that time they'll have the capability of hitting America... but what if we still have tens of thousands of troops in Iraq or Afghanistan? What if they could hit Ramstein AFB in Germany? How many of our forces could be killed then? Or how about this... What would be better for the Middle East, a nuclear arms race among all the fucked up countries, or us saying, "don't worry about Iran's handful of nukes, we'll protect you with our defense system."

Re your crap about "dying for Allah", it is just that, crap.

Fuck you and your "majority of Muslims are peaceful" bullshit... is it crap that we and the Pakistanis have plans in place to secure their nukes should the peaceful muslims ever overthrow the nation? Why would we need that if they would never use them? Exactly, you're internationalist pompus world view is what's crap... not my accurate view of Muslims.

hat's a bigger risk than getting hit by a nuclear missile from a foreign power is a nuclear reactor being bombed with conventional methods... like Indian Point, in which event, Rob, you and I are F***ed.

Posted by Hagbard_Celine

I've thought about Indian Point a lot over the years... but then I realized, it has to be a hell of a lot more secure then people are saying because its been years and no one has blown it up...

Plus I'd be okay... I'm 2.5 hours from Buchanan NY... I'd be in South Carolina by the time any cloud got to South Jersey (exaggeration of course, but my ass and family would be in the car doing 90 heading South before most people even saw the news)

At Bush's 130 a barrel,

???

Why did you single him out? That is what the rest of the world pays, too.

What a bizarre thing to write.

"Let's say Iran gets a nuke in the next 5-10 years".

Let us say. My point is that their rulers are not suicidal, so the rest of your comments have no meaning. I stake my belief on their past actions. Seems to me you stake yours on _your_ view of their actions. Like sitting in a poker game and thinking, "this is what I would do if I had those cards" - 'twould make you a great sucker.

"we'll protect you with our defense system".

Except they won't believe us because they are intelligent enough to understand that an effective MDS is decades away at best.

"Fuck you and your "majority of Muslims are peaceful" bullshit"

And you can point to where exactly I said that, right? I do remember pointing out that the rulers arent suicidal. Do not remember talking about "Muslims".

I don't know what personal demon you are talking to with the rest of that post, so I'll leave it to you. My perspective is that if we want to handle them, we need to deal with reality as they see it.

"my accurate view of Muslims".

This would be the part where you advocate bombing thousands and millions of them because they are about to impose sharia law here.

And you still have not explained why I should support a trillion dollar cover-my-ass MDS that you espouse.

but then I realized, it has to be a hell of a lot more secure then people are saying because its been years and no one has blown it up...

Posted by Rob_The_A_Hole

you demonstrate a fallacy here, but I don't remember which one... I don't think its as safe as you assume (though I hope it is). do a little research you'll find video footage of people who essentially walk right up on the place.

Plus I'd be okay... I'm 2.5 hours from Buchanan NY... I'd be in South Carolina by the time any cloud got to South Jersey (exaggeration of course, but my ass and family would be in the car doing 90 heading South before most people even saw the news)

Posted by Rob_The_A_Hole

you part of some secret group with an early warning system? why would yoube so ahead of the curve? more than likely your trip to SC would be at .9mph rather than the 90 you're so sure of because a few million would be thinking exactly like you.

We still don't inspect containerized freight and lots of other types of transport entering the US.
It seems that only the most expensive forms of defense systems have value, those that might actually protect us are deemed not to be affordable even though other countries are already doing those things. We can't afford to inspect our food yet other countries can. We can't afford to do many things which would protect us from known harms yet somehow it makes sense to build incredibly expensive systems which MIGHT work if another nation eventually develops the potential to test them. Yet Rob still thinks it's worth every penny.
Priorities, that is what we need, that is what we do not have.
Someday in the future I can see a nuke heading our way, they system fails and the nuke hits but it doesn't matter because everyone has long since died from some air born or food born microbe we couldn't afford to combat.

"And you still have not explained why I should support a trillion dollar cover-my-ass MDS that you espouse."

Psst...it's cuz Rob makes his living from the defense contracting industry.

"Why did you single him out? That is what the rest of the world pays, too."

Goatman, yes they pay the same number of dollars as we do, however they can buy more dollars with their Euros than they used to be able to, so it takes fewer Euros, or Yen, or whatever.
The dollar is inflated, that doesn't mean other currencies are equally inflated.

"The dollar is inflated, that doesn't mean other currencies are equally inflated.

Posted by danni"

OMG How LITTLE you know about economics is PROVEN daily. Think about it girl, with the dollar so LOW compared to other currencies, it's deflated, not inflated. You need basic biz 101 on a high school level

"Joe, while you are here (and sorry to sidetrack), do you know any good international trade/maritime law sources? I am trying to determine whether, under U.S. and International (UN) law, a cargo ship flying the flag of a given country is considered "territory" of the flag state."

Sorry Taxman, I left before you posted this. Unfortunately I don't know much about that area of law. I remember reading a case once which stated that when you are on the high seas with a flag on your ship, you are subject to the laws of the flag country, but when you are in territorial waters, you are subject to the laws of the country that owns the water. Not exactly the answer you were looking for but it might help.

Westlaw a good International directories, including one called International - Commercial Arbitration, if you're interested. Don't really have the time to search right now, hope this helps.

Thanks Joe. I tried Westlaw and Nexis and found some info but not much on point. I just need something to throw back at the IRS and I am sure they will leave my client alone. I think I found a case that is on point but it is based on the UN Convention of the Law of the Sea, which has not been adopted by the US. I did find some authority which backs what you say about territorial waters, but those rules generally deal with boarding a ship to inspect.

I spent all day on this issue and I think I know all I want to know on international maritime law.

Thanks again for the response.

And you still have not explained why I should support a trillion dollar cover-my-ass MDS that you espouse.

Posted by fyi

trillion? really... that's not an over-exaggeration at all is it.

If you don't want to support it, fine, don't support it, but just because you're a fucking moron that can't see that having a way to stop some psycho from lobbing a nuclear missile our way or at one of our allies is a good thing doesn't mean the program should be cut. Saving a city from nuclear destruction is well worth the billions it took to develop the system.

Psst...it's cuz Rob makes his living from the defense contracting industry.

Posted by danni

Not off any program that relates to the missile defense program... nice try though...

Obama has 17 minutes experience at the Federal level... you think he's qualified to deal with it?

Reagan - 0 seconds federal experience - Actor, Governor

On 'Star Wars':

I have a friend who's a PHD engineer and spent many years on Kwadjalein, the atoll in the South Pacific where the interceptors are fired from. He told me that even though they know the exact second the target missiles are fired from CA and the exact trajectory they can only hit maybe 1 in 100. That's after 20 years of trying.

He told me that even though they know the exact second the target missiles are fired from CA and the exact trajectory they can only hit maybe 1 in 100.

Even if that's true, that's just one system that's obviously still in testing and development. there are other systems that have worked and have much better success rates. THAAD or the new PATRIOT systems... The Patriot PAC-3 was almost 100% effective in Iraqi Freedom...

The possibility is there, but the problem is two Republicans have pushed hard for the system, two hated republicans by the left at that in Reagan and W. Bush, so Democrats will never get behind it...

The only good news is that the cities that would likely get nuked are choc' full O' Democrats...

ROB

All those systems have been and are well funded from both sides of the aisle.

I hope we develop a system that can stop intercontinental ballistic missiles. They're still trying....

The stupidity of Bush knows no bounds.

First he claims the installations are to protect Europe from the inevitable attack from Iran. Poland isn't even close to a flight path. As if that is our responsibility. The fucker is just hell bet on ramping up needless Military Spending, while rubbing salt in Russia's ass.

Its really just another treaty abrogation, this one being the hard fought anti-ballistic missile treaty. This was a top priority of Rice.. and all the other greedfuckers when they stole the Presidency. It has gotten in the way of their phoney war of terror since day one.

How is it Reagan started building missile defense under this treaty Bush pulled out of?

U.S. Withdraws From Missile Treaty
Bush Presses Congress for $7.8 Billion for Defense System

By Dana Milbank
Washington Post Staff Writer
Friday, June 14, 2002; Page A28

The Bush administration formally withdrew yesterday from the 30-year-old Anti-Ballistic Missile Treaty with Russia, but skirmishing continued between the administration and congressional Democrats over Bush's missile defense proposal.

The withdrawal from the treaty was set on Dec. 13, when President Bush gave Russia six months' notice that the United States would withdraw to pursue a missile defense system.

How is it Reagan started building missile defense under this treaty Bush pulled out of?

When people think of knocking nuclear missiles from the sky they think Reagan, and star wars and whatnot... the next president to push hard for missile defense was this one. Reagan and Bush... if you want to be a Democrat today, you have to proclaim from the tallest building in your town that the first created AIDS and the latter injects it into unsuspecting children... If not you're tossed from the party... just ask Lieberman.

I didn't say he actually started it, just that he gets the recognition for really pushing for it and bringing it to the mainstream.

ROB

My post wasn't a retort to you.

I was putting out the general question why Bush pulled out of a 30 year old ICBM treaty when Reagan didn't feel the need to in order to develop missile shield.

well didn't reagan's ideas for a shield fail? Maybe the system wasn't possible within the restrictions of the treaty...

"OMG How LITTLE you know about economics is PROVEN daily. Think about it girl, with the dollar so LOW compared to other currencies, it's deflated, not inflated. You need basic biz 101 on a high school level"

Sorry Davethewave but you are exactly wrong. When a dollar can buy less goods then it is said to be inflated, when it buys more goods it is deflated.

"Inflation is a rise in the general level of prices of goods and services over time. "Inflation" is also sometimes used to refer to a rise in the prices of some specific set of goods or services, as in "commodities inflation" or "core inflation". It is measured as the percentage rate of change of a price index.[1]"....

"International trade: Where fixed exchange rates are imposed, higher inflation than in trading partners' economies will make exports more expensive and tend toward a weakening balance of trade."

en.wikipedia.org

This isn't Economics 101, it is actually just understanding the English language, perhaps a course in English would help you. I think you should cover this topic by about fifth or sixth grade.

"Maybe the system wasn't possible within the restrictions of the treaty..."

Posted by Rob_The_A_Hole

The system wasn't possible then because the technology wasn't up to meeting the concept.

As far as treaties are concerned, you know as well as I do that they are "just pieces of paper."

The words of Ten Bears:

"It's sad that governments are chiefed by the double tongues. There is iron in your words of death for all Comanche to see, and so there is iron in your words of life. No signed paper can hold the iron. It must come from men."

cornhole doesn't understand Words of Iron. He has no iron in his spine. He is just a sad little troll.

"saving a city from nuclear destruction is well worth the billions it took to develop the system." - Rob

The system has _not_ been developed. We are still in a very early phase of testing.

If you can guarantee that you can do that, yes, it is. However, there is no such guarantee so it is a very expensive hope. It amazes me that you can not wrap your head around the fact that if an enemy shoots 200 missiles at us and we have a success rate of 95%, that means 10 cities get demolished. It is my opinion that only a moron would put their faith in only one defense to protect us. One that has no guarantee of absolute success. And I definitely do not trust anyone who is readily willing to spend huge sums of money so they can have a "cover-my-ass" system.

Re trillion dollar cost. It is costing billions right now. It has been in deveopment for at least 2 decades. It will take at least 2 more decades to complete. That would put it in the hundreds of billions. So, no, not much of an exaggeration. Still, in _your_ opinion, what do you figure it will cost?

People just do no seem to understand the complexity of a MDS. Damn, you are trying to hit something which is moving at very high speeds, like hitting a bullet with another. The required processing power is nowhere near available at present. Which is why the typical answer is that, well, processing power is expanding exponentially every x number of years, so, in 10-20-30 years we will have enough to do the calculations. And along the way we will be spending lots of money for a system which will _not_ be a shield until then, and which will most likely be outdated when it is completed. Another Maginot line for the fearfull. I keep being amazed at how people will grasp at any straw when they start to panic.

"Another Maginot line for the fearfull."

That is an excellent analogy.

"Another Maginot line for the fearfull."

"That is an excellent analogy."

Posted by danni

From your writings here, you wo