Drudge Retort: Red Meat for Yellow Dogs

Although Barack Obama calls climate change "one of the greatest moral challenges of our generation" and proposes cutting carbon emissions 80% by 2050, as a state senator from 1997 to 2004 he supported several bills sought by the state's coal interests.

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Tune in next month, and see what Barry's latest positions will be on, well, just about everything! Does this guy still stand for anything?

"Does this guy still stand for anything?"

Funny how the right can't find anything the magnitude of flip-flopping on torture, tax cuts, and the religious right.

Funny how you can't answer the question, Danforth.

Funny how a backer of the king of flip-flops is trying to pin some of them---any of them---on Obama.

Keep it up, Cookie...every time someone mentions one of Obama's flips, someone else will mention three of McCain's.

You guys seem to be stuck on losing points.

You still haven't answered the question, Danforth. Keep deflecting all you want. Seems to be your MO.

"Keep deflecting all you want."

Says the guy who, to deflect from McCain's dozens of flip-flops, posts ONE of Obama's.

What's next: a post praising McCain's vast understanding of economics?!? Bwahahahahaha!

"What's next: a post praising McCain's vast understanding of economics?!?"

More likely a succinct piece, suitable for the Reader's Digest crowd, titled "How to Lose 5 Planes and Survive." The text follows:

Oops! What the fuck?!?!?! Ejector switch! Rip cord! Holy shit! Over and out!

Don't know much about history
Don't know much geography
Don't know much about economics
Don't know much about aerodynamics

But I do know that I'm the one for you
And I know that if you love me too
What a wonderful world this would be

~Jurassic John

wait i thought obama was going toward the right

this is obviously a move toward the left


what is it haters? right or left?
center or perimeter?


you guys are flipping on your arguments against obama


i guess you are just like your candidate of choice, a true flap jack flip flopper

They try to score against Obama on this point when their own candidate, Senator John the Unfrozen Cave Man McCain, is the one who flips and flops more than a Billy Bass toy.

McCain Sets a New Record: 10 Flip-Flops in Two Weeks

www.crooksandliars.com

I thought change was good?

Maybe that is why Gampy McBullshit flip flops his positions hourly.

When is changing ones position allowed? I think that if a candidate - any candidate - changes his position based on more accurate information it should not be considered a "flip-flop".

Voting on a postion from one side and then changing your position and then changing it back would seem to be more of a technical "flip-flop" than just revising ones position based on differing information.

BO support of Coal in Illinois and his overall position on climate change may be contrary to one another but not technically a "flip-flop".

McCain's positions on tax cuts, immigration, etc.. that have changed may also not be technically considered "flip-flops" - unless he changes his mind again when in office.

My 2% of a dollar.


Maybe that is why Gampy McBullshit flip flops his positions hourly.

Posted by 726 at 2008-07-18 02:47 PM

Or maybe if you keep writing about McCain, Obamas past will go away. Of course every MCcain deflection proves you will kiss Obamas butt no matter what comes up.

"Does this guy still stand for anything?"

Funny how the right can't find anything the magnitude of flip-flopping on torture, tax cuts, and the religious right.

Posted by Danforth

There isn't an issue ears hasn't fliped on. He took lessonf from Kerry. "I voted for it before I voted against it."

Coal is our short term answer to most of the energy problem. You can even grind it up and put it in your gas tank.

My 2% of a dollar.

Posted by ELCIDCE90 at 2008-07-18 02:52 PM

So when Obama writes legislation to bring ALL the troops home in 10 months and then says he has always stuck to his 16 month plan... Is that a flat out lie?

"Of course every MCcain deflection proves you will kiss Obamas butt no matter what comes up"

says he who kisses bushes behind.
using your own argument

why did you deflect on congress on a post about bush.

ed zachery

I don't see much wrong with him doing what was best for his constituency as a state senator. That is what he was elected to do.

And also I don't see any wrong with working our way away from dirtier forms of fuel....as long as it is gradual and doesn't hurt us economically.



Tune in next month, and see what Barry's latest positions will be on, well, just about everything! Does this guy still stand for anything?

Posted by cookfish at 2008-07-18 08:49 AM | Reply | Flag

Cook,

When did he say he was vehemently against all Coal?

You accuse him of FLIP FLOPPING but I never heard him say that Coal must never be used.

LINK PLEASE!!

Of course every MCcain deflection proves you will kiss Obamas butt no matter what comes up"


says he who kisses bushes behind.
using your own argument


why did you deflect on congress on a post about bush.


ed zachery

Posted by klifferd at 2008-07-18 02:56 PM


Hello??? McFly??? Anyone home? I am on earth. Where are you???

"Hello??? McFly??? Anyone home? I am on earth. Where are you???"

biff, please remove your lips from bush's buttocks.

"i'm voting mccain, cause bush says i dun have to hate him no more"

biff, please remove your lips from bush's buttocks.

Posted by klifferd at 2008-07-18 03:05 PM

Sorry I was looking for the Bush praise and the deflection to Congress. Can you help me out? Or are you just proving how foolish you can be if you apply yourself? Take your time. I don't want you to look like an idiot.

Of course every MCcain deflection proves you will kiss Obamas butt no matter what comes up.

Posted by crispee_oc

No, I just like mocking dipshits like you.

Thanks for playing. You guys are nothing if not entertaining.

LINK PLEASE!!

Posted by COMMONSENSE

Please don't hold your breath waiting for it.

Voting on a postion from one side and then changing your position and then changing it back would seem to be more of a technical "flip-flop" than just revising ones position based on differing information.

What would you call it if you sponsored legislation and then voted against it?

The flip flop is not the problem and a McCain deflection doesn't adress the problem with Obama.

Obama has run his whole campaign on his being different. If you want change you need this guy who does not pander to special interests.

Then we see he is just like everybody else and pandered to the coal loby in the past to get elected to the Senate.

So tell us again why Obama is not just same old, same old without a McCain deflection.

Thanks!

No, I just like mocking dipshits like you.


Thanks for playing. You guys are nothing if not entertaining.

Posted by 726 at 2008-07-18 03:16 P

I guess you will have to back to playing with yourself. I love how posting McCain on a Obama thread is mocking in your feeble mind. I simply call it a deflection because you have nothing to add. Which no doubt mirrors your life.

"Keep deflecting all you want."

Says the guy who, to deflect from McCain's dozens of flip-flops, posts ONE of Obama's.

Posted by Danforth

Why can't everyone just admit when their candidate flips, instead of arguing that two wrongs make a right?

At least we'd have something nearer a substantive debate than a cage match of "he did it first."

crisp

sewage plant comment.


how does bush's crack taste?
eww

CHANGE, NOT

but at least we get someone who can think and talk.

if we can't vote the incumbents out, their behavior is reinforced.


Voting on a postion from one side and then changing your position and then changing it back would seem to be more of a technical "flip-flop" than just revising ones position based on differing information.


What would you call it if you sponsored legislation and then voted against it?

Posted by 726 at 2008-07-18 03:18 PM

Ask McCain about his immigration bill he wrote. I tried and he didn't even know what was in it. Now go back to licking the Boy Wonders ass and ignore any shortcomings that may pop up. Like a good little liberal.

"You accuse him of FLIP FLOPPING but I never heard him say that Coal must never be used." - commonsense

"Since introducing the bill in January Obama has been "refining" his position, and now will support subsidies for CTL only if the fuel can be created with 20% lower CO2 than petroleum based fuels, a goal that is not currently technically feasible. When push came to shove he voted against his own co-sponsored bill."

Would voting against your own bill be a flip-flop?

Sure he didn't say it must never be used, but for all intent and purposes he did, what he is asking is not techinically feasible....its a distinction without a difference...
www.treehugger.com


i'm off for the weekend

crisp we can fight then hugg later

byebye


crisp


sewage plant comment.


how does bush's crack taste?
eww

Posted by klifferd at 2008-07-18 03:23 PM

Like your tongue I would assume. Knowing how far your head is up your ass. Since you don't even know what fucking thread you are reading, maybe you should cut your losses. Otherwise some might think you are as smart as 726. Or as dumb in my opinion.

I guess you will have to back to playing with yourself. I love how posting McCain on a Obama thread is mocking in your feeble mind. I simply call it a deflection because you have nothing to add. Which no doubt mirrors your life.

Posted by crispee_oc

Are you sad because no one plays with you?

how does bush's crack taste?
eww


Posted by klifferd at 2008-07-18 03:23 PM

Knowing where you got your name from. (which explains your posts)They do have educational programming for adults on PBS as well.

Old Obama:

In May 1998, at the urging of the state's coal industry, the Illinois Legislature passed a bill condemning the Kyoto global warming treaty and forbidding state efforts to regulate greenhouse gases.
Barack Obama voted "aye."

New Obama:

And we must find a way to stop coal from polluting our atmosphere without pretending that our nation's most abundant energy source will just go away. It won't. It will also require taking steps to ensure that China's coal emissions are curbed as well. Already, some coal pollution from China's dirty plants is making its way to California. That's why we must invest in clean coal technologies that we can use at home and share with the world. Until those technologies are available, I will rely on the carbon cap and whatever tools are necessary to stop new dirty coal plants from being built in America - including a ban on new traditional coal facilities.

www.barackobama.com


From supporting coal to aborting coal. Guess some one coughed up more money for Barry recently.

how does bush's crack taste?
eww


Posted by klifferd at 2008-07-18 03:23 PM


Like your tongue I would assume. Knowing how far your head is up your ass. Since you don't even know what fucking thread you are reading, maybe you should cut your losses. Otherwise some might think you are as smart as 726. Or as dumb in my opinion.

Posted by crispee_oc

Is that your best?

When I hear your opinion, it reminds me that I could just fart, it would sound the same, be as intelligent and smell a lot better.

Are you sad because no one plays with you?


Posted by 726 at 2008-07-18 03:36 PM

If you play like you post... I would have to give you odds, strokes, points, a head start, tie one arm behind my back....

a ban on new traditional coal facilities.


www.barackobama.com


From supporting coal to aborting coal

Wrong. Try again.

When I hear your opinion, it reminds me that I could just fart, it would sound the same, be as intelligent and smell a lot better.

Posted by 726 at 2008-07-18 03:39 PM

Something tells me that fart metaphor hits close to home for you. As in life you pull the covers over your head and smell roses.

I would have to give you..., strokes, ... tie one arm behind my back....

Posted by crispee_oc

No thanks. You are not my type.

But hey, whatever you like to do on the weekend is your business.

Barry was sure in the coal lobby's pocket a few years ago, even voting against the sacred Kyoto treaty to satisy his coal masters. Now he throws them under the bus like so many old friends. It's sad the way he treats his old friends.

obama does lip flops and flip flops

www.youtube.com

And I still liked my original headline better: Obama's Flip-Flopping Heart is as Black as Coal. Oh well..Ha!

Here is Obama flip flop on Iraq--

Remarkable really--He is soooo different--yeah right!

www.johnmccain.com

click the Iraq Documentary

Can' wait what the empty suit says when he returns from his photo-opt abroad.

Like he cares about the progress or the troops for that matter.

Media bias in action--watch carefully.

Find me ONE HUMAN who still thinks EXACTLY the same way they did 5-10 years ago.

Why does everyone think that political figures should be static entities, never changing, never thinking, never considering new ideas or new facts.

Face it, the world is a FLUID place, nothing is the same from one second to the next. For anyone to be expected to be rigid and unmoving is ridiculous.

would have to give you..., strokes, ... tie one arm behind my back....


Posted by crispee_oc


No thanks. You are not my type.


But hey, whatever you like to do on the weekend is your business.

Posted by 726 at 2008-07-18 03:42 PM |

Which proves my point you don't have an athletic bone in your body. I figured play meant a game. What fun would that be kicking your ass in any sport? Maybe you meant something else? Based on your skewed paste job.

So when Obama writes legislation to bring ALL the troops home in 10 months and then says he has always stuck to his 16 month plan... Is that a flat out lie?

Posted by crispee_oc

Whoa! I am in no way for Hussein in any shape or form, I was just trying to clarify what "flip-flopping" really entails. I think everyone has a right to change their position based on new information. It's the back and forth based on politics which I object to.

El,
Wasn't trying to paint you as a Obama supporter. I was being glib about his war postion.

"Since introducing the bill in January Obama has been "refining" his position, and now will support subsidies for CTL only if the fuel can be created with 20% lower CO2 than petroleum based fuels, a goal that is not currently technically feasible. When push came to shove he voted against his own co-sponsored bill."

Would voting against your own bill be a flip-flop?

Sure he didn't say it must never be used, but for all intent and purposes he did, what he is asking is not techinically feasible....its a distinction without a difference...
www.treehugger.com


Posted by AndreaMackris at 2008-07-18 03:27 PM | Reply | Flag:

Hardly. Acutally, No, not at all. He saw it wasn't technically feasible.

Flip Flopping is when your the Co-Author of McCain-Feingold legislation and then decide to ignore the rules you yourself decided would be best.

Flip Flopping is when your the Co-Author of McCain-Feingold legislation and then decide to ignore the rules you yourself decided would be best.

Posted by COMMONSENSE at 2008-07-18 04:14 PM

Like public financing?

Posted by cookfish at 2008-07-18 03:43 PM


What the hell ails you ! Stop using BHO and master in the same sentence.
Very insensitive on your part.

To be honest I could care less about flip-flops, all I know is Obama will make a better leader than McCain and that is why I support him. Republicans have fucked this country over the last eight years and frankly I have had enough. This nit picky bullshit doesn't come close to the atrocities that have resulted from republican control of the executive and legislative branches. The fact that all the right has is this crap shows that they can't beat dems on policy issues.

Good afternoon all. See you on the flip side of the weekend.

Hi! My name is Obama! I'm only 9/10s corporate c#cksucker as opposed to the old f#ck who's 10/10... Vote for me!!!

I think i hear bubba billy in the background...

You simply have to realize that no Washington pol takes the silly idea of "climate change" seriously. Look at the way the live. Look at how they spend their own money. Look at how they spend our tax dollars.

No politician can survive the lights going out on his watch. So he will say or do anything to keep the radical enviros off his back just long enough to keep the oil furnaces blasting away, and oil rigs pumping away. As ignorant as Obama is when it comes to economic issues, even he's not so dumb as to think that less oil means lower prices. So look for his rhetoric and his actual governance to widely diverge, depending on who is sitting in his audience that day.

Hmm. The Democrats are attempting to get the lobbyists support and money by threatening them. That's the very definition of extortion as defined in the Oxford American Dictionary ("the practice of obtaining something, esp. money, through force or threats"). And look at the groups that are connected with this scheme - trade associations and lobbyists. Aren't they integral parts of the "culture of corruption" that the Democrats successfully criticized the Republicans about in 2006?


I wonder what Barack Obama is going to say in his upcoming national speech criticizing this sordid affair?

Leader of the 9 Percenters calls Bush 'A total failure'
Rick Moran

The Speaker of the House of Representatives, Nancy Pelosi, has called George Bush "a total failure" as president.

It is at moments like this that I truly wish I had a better grasp of the English language. Then again, I don't think there is any ironic juxtaposition of words that could possibly do justice to the utter and complete comedy exhibited by Madame Speaker who heads up a body that received a 9% approval rating from the American people

'Who Does he think he is?'
Rick Moran
Charles Krauthammer has an excellent column on Barack Obama today in which he exposes the candidate's extraordinary narcissism.

It's a given that Obama has no record of achievement that would qualify him for the presidency. Then why does he want to appear at the Brandenberg Gate and stand in the same spot as Reagan and Kennedy who had actaully earned their appearances there?

The reason is Obama is full of himself.


Obama is a three-year senator without a single important legislative achievement to his name, a former Illinois state senator who voted "present" nearly 130 times. As president of the Harvard Law Review, as law professor and as legislator, has he ever produced a single notable piece of scholarship? Written a single memorable article? His most memorable work is a biography of his favorite subject: himself.


It is a subject upon which he can dilate effortlessly. In his victory speech upon winning the nomination, Obama declared it a great turning point in history -- "generations from now we will be able to look back and tell our children that this was the moment" -- when, among other wonders, "the rise of the oceans began to slow." As Hudson Institute economist Irwin Stelzer noted in his London Daily Telegraph column, "Moses made the waters recede, but he had help." Obama apparently works alone.


Obama may think he's King Canute, but the good king ordered the tides to halt precisely to refute sycophantic aides who suggested that he had such power. Obama has no such modesty.

Krauthammer asks the ultimate question: "For the first few months of the campaign, the question about Obama was: Who is he? The question now is: Who does he think he is?"

He is our redeemer. And as Krauthammer concludes this royal take down of Obama, he points out that when Obama said that his nomination signalled that it was the "moment our planet began to heal, "Jesus practiced his healing just on the sick. Obama operates on a larger canvas."

He lectures us that instead of worrying about immigrants learning English, "you need to make sure your child can speak Spanish" -- a language Obama does not speak. He further admonishes us on how "embarrassing" it is that Europeans are multilingual but "we go over to Europe, and all we can say is 'merci beaucoup.' " Obama speaks no French

parle-vous france' mon ami?

que dice?

pinche huero


Tune in next month, and see what Barry's latest positions will be on, well, just about everything! Does this guy still stand for anything?

Posted by cookfish


He stands for saying or doing anything to further his career (get elected). And I don't think we will need to wait until next month for his latest "positions"...he changes that as often as his mommy changed his diapers.

coal is actually very very clean. Cleaner than nuclear energy (don't forget about the nuclear wastes that has to be buried in the mountains) The ignorance is amazing to me.

Look it up and do some research before making yourselves sound retarded. Never trust anyone question everything.

What factors into the resultant in a vector.

Easy. Obama holds a finger to the wind, and finds out how many votes he can secure by pandering to the lefties. Then he holds up a finger on his other hand, and figures how many votes he can buy with money for advertising from the monied coal folks. It's a matter of force and direction, and then Obama makes a reasoned decision. You can't fault him for that, can you?

Oh, there's another factor. How much of a personal payoff can a candidate get - either immediately or down the line.

Apologia time. Analyses of how Obama really really conforms to leftist doctrine on this matter, whatever he does.

Posted by scooter28054 at 2008-07-19 12:20 AM

... Spanish" -- a language Obama does not speak ...
Obama speaks no French

Dat be nuff o dis unjust badmouthin, homey. Obama do speak Ebonics and Ay-ray-bic what he dun learn in maddrassah skul in Indonesia when he dun study de Koo-ran. Insh'allah.

So honky, Obama lern three language what he speak. English what he lern in Hawai, and Ay-ray-bic what he lern in Indonesia, and Ebonics, what he lern in de ghetto. How many languages you speaks, mf?

You honky mf's always be tryin to put down the brotha.

"Barack Obama and the foul odor of corruption"

directorblue.blogspot.com

Johnson-
Please go back to whatever skinhead site you came from.

cookfish - he stands for what he has to stand for at wherever he happens to be. he's a pander bear! in the south he pretends to be a christian; on the left coast he supports gay marriage; on the east coast he supports capitalism; in texas he'll probably support the death penalty - he'll do whatever he has to in order to become a resident of the w.h. next year. one has to wonder if he has enough lip for all the arsekissing he's doing.

lie-lie-lie! that is the job of the average politician - not one, but most.



Nanc says yesterday on the "Maliki backs Obama timetable" thread:


of course they agree - they speak the same language.
POSTED BY NANC AT 2008-07-19 03:07 PM


Are you getting dizzy?

Posted by tigerbalm at 2008-07-20 11:14 AM | Reply



Funny, you mentioning someone who "says anything", manc.

Why is it that when someone posts a thread about Obama, the only thing people know how to do is bring up the fact that John McCain isn't any better? If someone were trying to convince me to vote for Obama, and the only thing they could do was say that he's just as bad as McCain, they wouldn't be very successful. Many Americans despise John McCain - and to see 24 mentions of his name in a thread about Obama shows how weak the arguments in favor of Obama - and not just "against" McCain - really are.

You know Joe, I was going to make a comment about your post but find that for the most part it is correct.

I am beginning to flip-flop myself. I was a obama supporter during the primary, but now obama is turning me away at every turn.

obama in the primary acted as though he had some tough glue in sticking to his convictions but now we can see he is compromising those convictions at every turn. Why vote obama when we can get the exact same with mccain.

Rather have mccain in office to off set the worthless democratic congress.

But this wasn't just "a thread about Obama", Cookie posted a flip-flop by Obama to illustrate Obama's flip-floppiness. Retorters just pointed out the subject of flip-flops isn't a very smart tack, since McCain seems to be the reigning king.

I'm sure if an Obama supporter posted a thread about McCain's big ears, the reactions would be much the same: are you fuckin' serious?!?

Rather have mccain in office to off set the worthless democratic congress.

Posted by moneywar


The major hotels are sold out in Minneapolis & the out laying areas for the last week of Aug when McCain & the Ron Paul festival occurs here.

One wonders if an Aug surprise is in the works for McCain's potential rise to American Presidency since President Obama is such a "sure" thang:>)


PETRIFIED ABOUT PAUL

While they are confident they can deal with any potential president,-- the Trilateralists paid huge tribute to Ron Paul in an equally large twist of irony, by expressing alarm that he is causing significant future damage.--

They expressed concern that Pauls rallies have attracted multitudes of young people who are getting their political education.-- They want Republicans to pressure Paul to drop out now and stop his education rallies. This assignment was given to Thomas Foley, former U.S. House speaker.

The reasons Pauls education campaign-- strikes fear into Trilateral hearts are obvious. Paul would refuse to surrender an ounce of U.S. sovereignty to an international organization and TC wants world government.

Paul would immediately bring U.S. troops home from Iraq, Afghanistan and from 130 UN peacekeeping-- missions around the globe. TC wants to enjoy war profiteering and global power. Paul would abolish the federal income tax while the TC wants to pile on a global tax payable to the UN.

The formal agenda was loaded with everything Paul and American patriots detest: higher taxes, more foreign giveaways, more immigration, both legal and illegal, into the United States and engaging Iran,-- among others.


www.mywebtimes.com

"But this wasn't just "a thread about Obama", Cookie posted a flip-flop by Obama to illustrate Obama's flip-floppiness."

So either refute his flip-floppiness or admit that it exists. No need to bring up other people who might be just as unworthy of your vote. Just because it's about an aspect of Obama you might not want to confront doesn't mean it isn't "about Obama."

And a thread about big ears would be irrelevant to politics. A thread about ones stance on energy is not.

"No need to bring up other people who might be just as unworthy of your vote."

Bla bla bla. Any thread about Obama or McCain 4 months from the election is going to be comparative.

Maybe so. But when all you see are deflections and very little defenses, it makes you wonder whether a defense for Obama exists.

"So either refute his flip-floppiness or admit that it exists"

He's a politician. It exists.

"A thread about ones stance on energy is not."

But a thread taking Obama to task using the very same subject (FFs) on which McCain smokes him, is stupid.

"it makes you wonder whether a defense for Obama exists."

Or one for McCain, for that matter.

Face it. Rev Wright was right! Barry is just doing what politicians do.

He stands for anything and everything that will get him elected.

You Obamikins are just buying the magical elixir.

"He's a politician. It exists."

Assuming that's an adequate defense of Obama (who is supposedly "not tainted" the way other politicians are), that should have been enough for Obama supporters without them having to claim that McCain does the same thing.

"But a thread taking Obama to task using the very same subject (FFs) on which McCain smokes him, is stupid."

I see - so any time a politician flip-flops, we shouldn't talk about it- because chances are, the other guy does it too. Who cares about accountability or getting the word out?

I noticed you still couldn't defend Obama in your post without bringing up McCain - twice. Sad and predictable.

"(who is supposedly "not tainted" the way other politicians are)"

Who's assuming that? Pretty ridiculous assumption, wouldn't you say?

"I see - so any time a politician flip-flops, we shouldn't talk about it- because chances are, the other guy does it too"

No...my point was it's stupid for one side to attack the other candidate when the first side's candidate is weaker in that area. Any mention by the right of Obama's changes will invariably invoke many, many more by McCain, and on core issues: Tax cuts for the rich, torture, the religious right, etc. It's a foolish political tactic. I doubt anyone will truly give a fuck how Obama voted in the Illinois legislature on a coal project compared to McCain's belief we should be borrowing billions of dollars every year to eliminate a tax that only effects multi-millionaires and billionaires.

"I noticed you still couldn't defend Obama in your post without bringing up McCain - twice. Sad and predictable"

I noticed you missed my point completely, which is why I've had to repeat it. Sad and predictable.

But, since I'm supposed to "defend Obama" (I guess) what am I defending him from, false suggestions he's the Savior? That he's perfect? Screw that, I have no illusions. He's a politician, but he's one who will get the worst governance of my life out of power versus the one who will continue it. And he's the one who will assure Scalia isn't the intellectual thrust of our laws for the next generation or more versus the one who has vowed to put more Scalias on the bench.

Obama also represents, to me, a turning of the page needed by America in many ways. We had the Greatest Generation who did fine (except for fixing Social Security during a time of rising birth rates), and now the Greediest Generation, and they bollixed it badly. McCain (and Hillary) both still represent that Vietnam era to me. Still, I was initially considering McCain (and Guiliani on the R side), but that died with his abandoning his "maverick" positions, especially tax cuts for the rich and embracing the Falwells of the world. Obama, while full of mistakes, flip-flops, and a secret Muslim past, is brilliant, well-educated, and seemingly willing to get America back on a track where, say, science is respected instead of censored. He's an excellent orator, charismatic, and could possibly inspire a generation of Americans to tackle the massive problems ahead of us as the baby boomers retire and age. And Obama's history also shows he's walked the walk, taking a low-paying job ($13,000, in Chicago) after being an editor (the first black) of the Harvard Law Review. . And he stayed for years. I'm betting he could have made more, wouldn't you say?

As far as other Dem policies, I've never been a big fan of many---too fiscally irresponsible, too overreaching, and I'm still pissed about the Dems in Congress campaigning on paygo and clean bills, neither of which they delivered. Of course, I'm more pissed at the Republicans, for abandoning their policies of fiscal sanity and individual freedoms in the first place, and possibly sticking us with Dem majorities everywhere.

Oh, and one other aspect: the presidency requires all the faculties to be firing on all cylinders. It ages every man who holds the position, and quickly. I don't want to be electing a Vice-President.

I'd say that answers your question(s). Your turn: whom are you voting for, and why?

(who is supposedly "not tainted" the way other politicians are)

"Who's assuming that? Pretty ridiculous assumption, wouldn't you say?"

Are you actually pretending not to have seen people, on and off this site, claim that one advantage of Obama's lack of experience is that he hasn't been tainted by typical Washington interests?

"my point was it's stupid for one side to attack the other candidate when the first side's candidate is weaker in that area."

I don't think that's stupid at all. If one candidate is bad and the other is worse, that shouldn't eliminate discussion of the bad candidate. Conversations about McCain's weaknesses can occur in threads about McCain. Comparisons between the two are also warranted. But when someone specifically requests a discussion solely of Obama, they shouldn't be denied outright just because someone else might be worse then he is.

How is the fact that he could have made more money at another job representative of his capacity to be president of the United States? If anything it shows an ability to be charitable - while that's admirable, it doesn't say anything one way or another about his ability to lead.

I'll be voting for Bob Barr because I prefer his ideas over either of the other candidates. Barr is the only candidate who is committed to reducing government spending. Barr will remove American troops from Iraq and all other countries in which they are needlessly stationed and bring them home where they belong. Barr has a comprehensive policy for dealing with the illegal immigration problem, which I agree with. Essentially I'll be voting Barr because I agree with him on about 90% of issues, which is something I can't say about any other presidential candidate. I won't be voting for him because I think his life choices were admirable or because I think he is a great orator. I'll be voting for him because I think his ideas are the only thing that can save this country.

"Are you actually pretending not to have seen people, on and off this site, claim that one advantage of Obama's lack of experience is that he hasn't been tainted by typical Washington interests?"

Of course not. But I don't. Still, do you believe that's a possibility, or not?

"If one candidate is bad and the other is worse, that shouldn't eliminate discussion of the bad candidate."

You're right. But McCain's backers pointing out Obama's flip-flops is like Obama's supporters attacking McCain's military record. Losing propositions, both.

"How is the fact that he could have made more money at another job representative of his capacity to be president of the United States?"

It shows how he behaves when the cameras aren't on him, and speaks of his character.

"If anything it shows an ability to be charitable - while that's admirable, it doesn't say anything one way or another about his ability to lead."

You have the right to believe that. I believe it DOES say something about his ability to lead, as he did it by example, not just rhetoric.

"I'll be voting for Bob Barr"

Would you if you lived in a swing state, and the polls were tied?

"Would you if you lived in a swing state, and the polls were tied?"

Yes. I voted libertarian in Wisconsin in 2004.

"Yes. I voted libertarian in Wisconsin in 2004."

Fair enough.

What do you think of McCain's pledge to appoint more Scalias to the bench? One or two more would make Scalia the legal thrust of the Supreme Court for a generation.

And who would Barr appoint?

Scalia happens to be my favorite SC justice. I don't think McCain has the brains to find another Scalia, or the guts to go appoint one.

Barr would probably appoint "strict constructionists."

"Scalia happens to be my favorite SC justice."

His rant against habeas corpus had nothing to do with the law. I found it frightening that a generation of rulings could be based on that type of fear-mongering.

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