Money talks.

Let Fannie and Freddie burn. We will all be better off. Say no to Fascism kids.

Let's recap...
Social Security and Welfare are "entitlement programs."

But, large lending institutions that engage in unethical and stupid business practices deserve to have money thrown at them.

I'm glad to have that sorted out now.

I agree sam. Shut it ALL down.

I agree sam. Shut it ALL down.

Posted by the_nether

dsdo we have enough icebergs to ship off all the poor and elderly? Or naybe they just need a shower?

It's like I've been saying - lobbying should be a capital crime.

No civilization has ever survived a plundering by its ruling class intact. The closest has been France, whose citoyens had the great good sense to start guillotining miscreants until the few remaining aristos got the idea that founding fortunes on oppression was so 1787.

There were a few bumps along the way - the Napoleonic period, and then the Restoration - but eventually, a France that was somewhat fairer to its average man emerged.

We could do with a bit of that. If we do not curb the excesses of America's politicians, corporations and financial institutions, the place is doomed.

All I know is, when I'm elderly and my SS is worth dick, I'll wish I could have invested that money on my own.

But of course letting people decide what to do with their own money is no longer the American way.

Let Fannie and Freddie burn. We will all be better off. Say no to Fascism kids.

Really? That post only shows how STUPID you are. Fannie and Freddie hold half the mortages in this country. But, I guess since you live in your mama's basement it doesn't affect you!! Try understanding what an entity is and what it does before you spout off. Just like the Chimp in Charge, speaking before you think, if you can think at all!!!
Better off Dead than to ever vote Red!!!

All I know is, when I'm elderly and my SS is worth dick, I'll wish I could have invested that money on my own.

But of course letting people decide what to do with their own money is no longer the American way.

been that way for a couple of generations. Of course, the Rightys prefer to have you invest directly in their scams, right Kennyboy? Or Bernie?

If we are going to be forced to bail out Freddie and Fannie we don't have to just provide the funds without demanding ownership rights, limits on compensation, an end to lobbying, etc. Probably the lobbyists are visiting various members of Congress spending money on campaign contributions even as these two corporations are in need of bail out funds from us taxpayers.

Yeah, right and left is all the same to me. Just somebody who thinks they know best how to spend my money. Then spending twice as much as they said they would. Then giving me nothing in return.

Worst form of government there is... except for all the rest.

Better off Dead than to ever vote Red!!!

Posted by Silence

Go for it.

Danni- I think you just nailed it. Wanna bet the biggest Bush donor gets the contract to buy up the stock, at a hefty commission?

"Really? That post only shows how STUPID you are. Fannie and Freddie hold half the mortages in this country. But, I guess since you live in your mama's basement it doesn't affect you!!"

Silence: Bukakke Boy doesn't understand nuances like that, you're right. But you're missing a point here, too - we need to use the bailout to get Fannie and Freddie reformed, big-time.

I just wish all this had happened on some other President's watch, instead of Chimpy's. There is no fucking way the Bush adminstration will do anything meaningful to promote more honest management of these institutions. Wrist-slaps and chest-beating, yes. Requiring honesty and competence, no way.

It looks like both sides of the aisle had their hands out and were willing to let things slide. I am not sure how this will change when we have a different president. Seems to me that they need to reform the whole lobbying process (eliminate it would be my suggestion). Go to complete public financing. No money from anybody. They all get the same amount to run, etc. That is a start.

Novak in the Washington Post builds the case that the Dems were in the bag for Fannie and Freddie. Interesting...

Baker, Hagel and Richard Shelby, ranking Republican on the Senate Banking Committee, were rare members of committees with jurisdiction who took the issue seriously. The powerhouse Democratic overseers of the banking committees -- Rep. Barney Frank, Sen. Christopher Dodd and Sen. Chuck Schumer -- protected Fannie and Freddie.

First Novak is an obvious right wing hack, second Paulson is a Republican member of the Bush administration. I'm not saying that Frank, Dodd and Schumer shouldn't be tougher on Fannie and Freddie but it is baloney to pretend that Paulson is really somehow a Democrat or that, of all people, Greenspan, was a voice of reason when he was largely responsible for fueling the mortgage crisis with ridiculously low prime rates when he was Chairman. That is a truely convoluted attempt to shift the blame and is about what I'd expect from Novak.

Really? That post only shows how STUPID you are. Fannie and Freddie hold half the mortages in this country.

Posted by Silence

I guess that is a good reason to take my hard earned money and just give away to some joker that dosen't know how to make a good loan! It appears that there is plenty of stupid to go around and you are at the head of the line.

The purpose of the bailout is to continue to prop up house prices above "affordable" to make the CEOs bookeepers job easier.

The difference between a Republican and Democrat is spin, not substance. Democrats strive to make it sound like they're bailing out homeowners, when in fact all they're doing is driving them deeper and deeper into debt.

This country is collapsing because it is owned and controlled by Capitalists. They are in their last throws. A new currency is required but nobody wants to admit it. It will hurt the Capitalists too much.

This country is collapsing because it is owned and controlled by Capitalists.

Posted by nutcase

It is the socalists that keep taking our hard earned money and giving it to others, it ain't captialists nut.

Capitalism is for honest people and doesn't have anything to do with our present situation. In fact, if the pure rules of capitalism kick in the whole shiteroo will go swirling down the toilet. We have socialistic policies just to keep static after the last round of socialistic policies, etc....

Let's take an average business that has 24% approval with the management and 19% approval with operations and is insolvent in just about every operation, engages in intrigues, adventures, lies, deception and corruption.

How much of their product will you buy? None. That's capitalism. How much of that product would you use if you thought it were free or even if they paid you to use? Lot's. that's socialism

I do not begrudge providing food and shelter to someone who is down and out. We can afford it and when a nation's population understands that they have some value they will always try harder (on average). At the same time I don't think its wise to keep destitute people in Dorritos and Coca Cola. Welfare should provide only basic necessaties: bread, rice, dry milk, tea, beans.

What we don't need is lots of $100K salaried people deciding who gets what when. That's where the most of Government waste occurs.

Farm, Oil, Drug subsidies; Privatized Military No-Bid Contracts, Deregulation of water and energy. These are the changes that further squander our precious resources on worthless rich bastards. Churches, absentee Landowners, Defense Contractors, are part of the group that is stealing your hard earned money. Most get get it all by virtue of their birthright, like Medieval Royalty. Take Bush for example, born with a silver foot in his mouth, wasteful, reckless, never done a honest days work in his life, except clearing shrubbery in Crawford.

Dishonest Management at these institutions? - Mary?

Danni - Its the right wing?

North - Bush this and Bush that....I guess none of you noticed the last paragraph in the artical.

"Jamie S. Gorelick, deputy attorney general in the Clinton administration

****(the same one that created the wall between the CIA and the FBI that led to 911 - the same one on the 911 commission that sent Sandy Burger to the archives to stuff evidence in his pants)******

and a chief policy adviser to Hillary Rodham Clinton, is rumored to be a possible attorney general in an Obama administration. She was vice chairman of Fannie Mae and sat on its board of directors."

Yes that is correct...Gorelick oversees another disaster..Mary - Poor management? Yep Gorelick.

Danni - right wing...Clinton Staffer

North..again..not Bush...Clinton

and now She is moving to the Obama camp. Wonder what fiasco she will create there? Nice pick Obama - shows what decision making ability you have ...none.

Nut - apply named. I wish you could have seen what East Germany looked like just after the wall fell...you might have a different view of capitalism. but....you are a nut. Sad that they let people like you vote...or live.

Foshaffer:

Europe's Socialism is pulling East Germany back from the grave.

Honesty is what makes the difference, whatever one's philosophy. Government parading as Capitalism or Communism when neither is what it pretends to be is Orwellian doublespeak, nothing more.

The purpose of Political Discourse is to distract you from the wholesale stealing going on. Could be oil wells in the Carribean, or the using the Social Security Trust Fund to wage Wars in Vietnam and Iraq, or the S&L Scam, or the Enron Scam, or Columbian Drug Lords laundering their money through Wall Street, or Bush & North trading Missiles for Hostages with Iran, or Rummy approving the export of Nuclear Technology to North Korea.... the list is endless. If you are well connected and rich, you can commit any crime, inclduing murder, but if you're an average Joe you can be thrown in prison for doing nothing and never be heard from again. How low can this country go?

The biggest difference between "Communist" and "Our Capitalist" Populations, is the Chinese and Russians know damn well when they're being lied to. Most Americans, like their fearless leader, are fucking clueless.

"Reckless, self-enriching capitalists get on your knees and thank the rescuing Washington socialists, for without them, you would surely be in chains". (Ralph Nader)

Frank Raines former CEO of fnm, they guy who cooked their books, was going to be John Kerry's pick for Treasurer.

As I clearly called out the dr left, because fnm and fre were stacked and sacked by the democrats. AND they gave lots of money to both parties.

Do any of you did shits have any idea what the implicit backing of the full faith and credit of the US Gov. means???? It means we HAVE to back them up. Just 6 months ago many screamed for them to bail out sub prime mortgagee's, irregardless of cost. Now that's all forgotten and you want to know how this mess was created???

I guess you chose to forget my posts today, or just do selective reading AS USUAL.

The other laugher is how you all act like you know something about their financial condition!!!!!!

You know JACK SHIT. THAT'S A FACT. Care to challenge me???? Cause all you know how to do is hate, and cut and paste, dudes

Is the only response you loyal Republican dipshits ever have is, " the Democrats do it to"?

Our duopoly is broken. I'll grant you that. But voting for Nader never worked and the Rethuglicans have proven to be orders of magnitude more greedy and corrupt than the Democrats. Nor can we forgive them for losing two wars, wasting trillions, violating basic Christian values and International Law.

Incumbents must be driven out of office, that goes for Pelosi too.

Sorry Nut - Sorry you are wrong and I cannot believe you have such a twisted view of the world.

1) You are confusing a Political System with an Economic System

Capitalism is an economic System
Socialism is an economic System
Communisum is an economic system

Totalitarian Rule is a political system
Oligarchy is a Political system
Democracy (both direct and representitive) are political systems.

Captialism is the system that results when people own the means of production and have the freedom to spend thier capital where they want to.

Communisum is where the state owns the means of production and people are allocated resources based on their needs. Best sumed up by a Russian I met years ago " we pretend to work..they pretend to pay us"

It is hard but you can have an Oligarchy and capitalism (China )..normally oligarchy's form from communisum as some group has to control the distribution of the resources. So China started as a totalitarian communist state but has evolved to a Socialist / capitalist economic system with oligarchy rule.

2)You are confusing the legal system (any wealthy person can comit murder and get off) Tell Michael Milikan that ...or the guys that ran Enron or MCI's Ebbers...or the guys that ran Tyco. They were all EXTREAMLY rich and they all went to jail. Yes you have the OJs of this world..but it was because he was rich and black ..not just rich.

3) You really got to stop listening to someone like Nader who was completely wrong about everything including "Unsafe at any speed"...the Corvair comments were proven completely false.

Having worked at the executive level at many a corporation I can tell you...most of the guys I have worked with are almost too stupid to shave - let alone plot some massive coverup.

As to the Average Joe being thrown in Prison for nothing...it may happen on the rare occasion...but I have multiple friends in both the military and the police departments...and that is blantently untrue ..they have their hands tied by "rules of engagement" in the military and by "rules of evidence" in the police department. You get thrown in jail..its because you did it.

I guess that is a good reason to take my hard earned money and just give away to some joker that dosen't know how to make a good loan! It appears that there is plenty of stupid to go around and you are at the head of the line.

Posted by Sniper at 2008-07-17 02:50 PM | Reply | Flag:

You can thank Republican Presidential Candidate, Sen John McCain's Financial Policy advisor, Phil Gramm for the laws that allowed it to happen.

Commonsense wake up, these are bipartisan issues....

and you know NOTHING about either company, that's for sure

Receiving taxpayer dollars from the US Treasury for their private benefit is not new to Goldman Sachs. In 1990s, when the Mexican government defaulted on its bonds, investors at Goldman Sachs stood to lose billions of dollars. They didn't.

Buried deep in the subsequent $40 billion US bailout of Mexico was a $4 billion payment to Goldman Sachs, gratis of the US Treasury indemnifying Goldman Sachs against any losses on their investment in Mexican bonds.

The fact that current US Treasury Secretary and former Goldman Sachs CEO Henry Paulson also recently used US funds to underwrite JP Morgan Chase's private buyout of investment bank Bear Stearns and is now proposing to do the same with Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac is to be expected. For investment bankers, using public money to privately profit is business as usual.

s.o.p. socialism for the rich, f#ck the poor...

"They're ruining what has been one of the greatest economies in the world, [Bernanke and Paulson] are bailing out their friends on Wall Street but there are 300 million Americans that are going to have to pay for this."

Jim Rogers, Chairman of Rogers Holdings, July 14, 2008

Com, you couldn't be so stupid as to believe that Phil Gramm is to blame for our government playing favors to some and screwing the rest of us with high taxes and a huge federal debt. You can't be that stupid.

FDT was the big push for social programs to "help us out of the depression" which just drew it out some more. Then LBJ carried the torch with his "great society" and "war on poverty" which nearly bankrupted us back in the late 60s.

We need a government that shrinks in size, not grows.

Sniper

Stop drinking the GOP kool-aid and blaming social programs for the condition Bush has shoved our country into. Bush and his cartel have singlehandly brought our country to its knees financially.

It is not the social programs that we've had for decades. It's out right theft and corruption, free trade agreements that are a joke when it comes to a level playing field for U.S workers, Bush's underfunding/understaffing of all our various agencies' government watchdogs in order to let his corporate boys run amok over our rules and regulations. Add to this Bush's trillion dollar illegal war in Iraq and the looting of our Treasury for his Republican buddies' no bid, cost plus war profiteering reconstruction contracts and you have some of the reasons why the U.S dollar is now worth only 40% of the Euro.

Bush is responsible. Graham -- McCain's pick as a financial guru -- has fought for free trade and rotten to American workers trade deals and NOTHING will change if you insist on giving Johnny and the McTraitors another 4 years to finish the job of robbing us blind.

Only fools would blame Social Security and other similiar programs in order to cover up the most corrupt President and Adminisration in U.S. history. Keep blaming it on my 86 year old neighbor lady's social security check each month and giving Bush yet ANOTHER pass. You Republicans are nauseating. You all are as complicit as he is because you all voted for him a second time when you KNEW what he was like by 2004. No excuse.

free trade agreements that are a joke when it comes to a level playing field for U.S workers

How do you figure?

Big myth! They are not free trade agreements; they are protected trade agreements. NAFTA has a tribunal to settle corporate disputes. Agreements do not exist in real free trade.

Just because the political/corporate class use the term "free trade" doesn't make it free trade.

So whether you call it NAFTA or DOBBSTA, It's all protected trade. There is no international free trade in this country. The closest to free trade is trade between the states.

We need a government that shrinks in size, not grows.

Posted by Sniper

Try to convince voters.

"...free trade agreements that are a joke when it comes to a level playing field for U.S workers...."

How do you figure?

Posted by JeffJ at 2008-07-17 09:18 PM

Easy -- our biggest competitor and most of our jobs are going to Communist China. China either has the government own the businesses and manufacturing companies or else they subsidize the Chinese private companies whereas the U.S. does not do it for our own businesses and manufacturing sectors. This mmediately putting us on an uneven playing field. Free trade should be fair trade and does not mean an uneven playing field.

Not only that but Bush refuses to get tough with the Chinese when U.S. businesses have complained to him how the Chinese violate our copyright and trademark laws and he refuses to allow the Justice Dept. to crack down on counterfeit products coming from China. Not only that, Bush had underfunded and cut back on manpower

Not only that, but Bush has intentionally underfunded and cut back hiring at almost all our regulatory agencies -- such as the FDA -- allowing the Chinese and other foreign countries to make an even greater profit by not having to conform to our product safety laws. That allows them to make cheap crap at a low cost to the detriment of the U.S. consumer as they then save money by avoiding allthe extra inspections and costs incurred with product safety.

I could go on foreeeeeeeeever with all Bush has done to destroy us economically. But Bush having fair trade? Are you kidding? Foreign overnments who are our so-called free trade partners should not be allowed to subsidize their industries and then pit them unfairly against our own unsubsidized U.S. companies and that's exactly what is happening. Free and fair trade my butt!

whoops -- one too many of "not only that" :)

Okay, Cali.

You raise some reasonable points.

That said, let's chunk it up a bit.

We have a real economic problem mounting that no amount of government interference can fix in the long-term. We have huge population masses in China and India who are willing to perform the exact same work as many jobs held by Americans here but at a fraction of the pay. In short, these people are driving down the value of certain types of jobs.

So, what do we do?

We have to adapt and evolve our economic model. Should we have opposed the plow or robotics because both technologies supplanted valuable human labor?

As a job field, manufacturing is a shrinking field irregardless of government policy.

This is no different than new technology making older technologies obsolete. Did we bemoan the invention of the compact disc because it put manufacturers of cassette tapes out of business?

"So, what do we do?"

Could do exactly what China does. And Japan does. And most of Asia. Ignore the free market fundies and engage in whatever level of state intervention is necessary.

Could do exactly what China does. And Japan does. And most of Asia. Ignore the free market fundies and engage in whatever level of state intervention is necessary.

Which would buy some time in the short-term.

In the long term however it would only exacerbate the problem - keeping the worker tied to a field of work that is a loser in the long-run.

Huge swaths of workers are now happily gobbling up the exact same work as what some Amercian workers are doing, but at a fraction of the cost.

That is reality and protective measures can't change this in the long-run.

"Which would buy some time in the short-term."

Exactly.

" a process of undirected change, the pace of which is deemed too fast, should be slowed down, if possible, so as to safeguard the welfare of the community The rate of change is often of no less importance than the direction of the change itself; but while the latter frequently does not depend upon our volition, it is the rate at which we allow change to take place which well may depend upon us. (p. 37)"

--Karl Polanyi

Why is a state-interventionist policy good for China, Japan, South Korea, etc., but bad for the U.S?

Null,

You seem to be advocating 'slowing the rate of change' in lieu of trying to prevent the change from happening.

If that is the case, we probably have room for discussion.

The problem is said discussion is really a matter of parsing degree as opposed to arguing ideology/philosophy. Such a discussion is much more difficult to carry out as we all tend to argue in the abstract but this type of discussion is a matter of discussing hard numbers.

Yes yes they bought influence but that was the only game in town in Washington! What they eventually found out,like the banks and the mortgatge companies and the Republicians and the Democrats etc. did is that CORRUPTION always fails in the end!

FH,

I am familiar with those definitions and do not take issue with their usefulness in THEORY.

As a practical matter, however, both the United States and China, unlike Europe, have regressed into Oligarchies. Europe of course invented Oligarchies and Empirialism, but their well educated population has enough sense to vote for their own well being. That's not to say we are the same. We don't and the Chinese can't.

I am not so crazy as to believe everyone in prison or on death row is innocent, only about 10%. But this is an unacceptable number which falls almost entirely on the poor.

Political witch hunts are another story entirely, wealth cannot protect an individual from being indicted like a ham sandwich. Dozens of Day Care Centers accused of "Devil Worship", Martha Stewart, Michael Milken, Governor Seigelman, were all victims of overzealous Prosecutors that can and do stack the outcome by violating law and common decency. Please tell me what century am I living in when juries believe Social Workers that claim the Martin's were sacrificing children in their day care bathroom. You might call it the tyranny of good intentions.

Then there's the million people Bush murdered in Iraq while displacing 4 million more and leaving 20 million with no jobs electricity or resources to escape. Then we have Abu Grab and Guantanamo, where torture and incarceration without charges are imposed on tens of thousands of people, most haven't done anything, just like the million peop on our ridiculous terrorist watch list. No one is a more powerful, willful killer, indifferent to the suffering of others, than Shrub. Who's gonna indict him?

"Then LBJ carried the torch with his "great society" and "war on poverty" which nearly bankrupted us back in the late 60s."

Riiight....that little old Vietnam war had nothing to do with hard economic times in the 70's. Always blame the poor folks never the war mongers. But hey, look at all we gained by invading Vietnam .....