I thought it wasn't supposed to make a difference. Will the libs who have been lambasting 'do nothing' Bush admit he did something popsitive? Or will they spin the news to death?

Good money is on the predictible knee-jerk spin. We all know that to a good sheeplib Bush is damned if he does and damned if he doesn't.

So c'mon folks -- sip your Kool-Aid and spin away!

"admit he did something popsitive(sic)?"

OK

ROFL!

Got any plutonium?

"admit he did something popsitive(sic)?"

Cool. I waited until I knew you were online zat before I started this thread. I wanted to see how long it would take to hook you with a misspelled word and make you respond with '(sic)'. 4 minutes. You danced to my tune like Fred Astaire. Pretty damn good. But I'm throwing you bak so I can catch you aggain.

You are too easy and and boringly predictible. Still -- knowing I can force you to type a specific string across cyberspace is funny.

So that's why crude dropped. The dollar has a long way to go down. The price of crude will zip back up again to resume its upward trend.

Well, goatdick, I guess that makes you the Sic(est) mf'er here...

Look at this chart Goat. The dollar has dropped 40% since your buddy Bush became president. He could have removed that moratorium when he first because president. If I were you, I would hide out of embarrassment.

Bush's call for a lift now on the drilling moratorium had nothing to do with Bush's speech. It doesn't happen that fast. This $9 bbl drop appears, though, to have had everything to do with OPEC's report today which reported a decrease in the demand for oil and speculators fear of being left holding the bag if we go into recession.

So much for Bush's "silver tongue." Hah! Nothing good has ever happened when he's opened his mouth.

My points came from the following article.
If you all want a link I can give it to you.

This is what the Department of Energy's Energy Information Administration said in 2007, based on an analysis that assumed the expiration of moratoriam on leasing of offshore areas would happen as it was scheduled to, in 2012:

[A]ccess to the Pacific, Atlantic, and eastern Gulf regions would not have a significant impact on domestic crude oil and natural gas production or prices before 2030... Because oil prices are determined on the international market, however, any impact on average wellhead prices is expected to be insignificant.

Beyond that, Kudlow's argument was a classic example of confusing correlation with causation. Put simply, just because the drop in price happened as Bush was speaking doesn't mean Bush's words caused the drop. In this case, in fact, we actually have some far more plausible explanations for what caused the price of oil to fall. As my colleague Andrew Leonard explained there's one major event that has been accepted as the causative factor: On Tuesday, OPEC released a report that predicts a slowing in the growth of demand for oil.

The Associated Press added one other factor: speculators' fear that they'll be left holding the bag if a recession leads to a drop in price, or if banks are forced to get some quick cash. The AP quotes a research note by Olivier Jakob, an analyst at Petromatrix in Switzerland, that says, "Since investment banks have been increasing their ... exposure to commodities, their current distress can have (a) significant impact on oil prices if they are forced to liquidate commodity positions in a run for cash."

― Alex Koppelman
www.salon.com - July 15, 2008

correction to my first sentence inserted in bold:

Bush's call for a lift now on the drilling moratorium and the drop in the price of oil had nothing to do with Bush's speech.

your buddy Bush became president.

He's not my buddy. I've said many times I can't stand the man.

Pay attention to something other than gold, Ray. If I were you, I would hide out of embarrassment.

What is this?

Will the libs who have been lambasting 'do nothing' Bush admit he did something popsitive?

I know a fool when I see one.

Note --

I should also have called attention to the point in the article quoted above which said if we let the drilling moritorium now in place expire normally as it's scheduled to happen in 2012 it would: "not have a significant impact on domestic crude oil and natural gas production or prices before 2030... because oil prices are determined on the internationational market."

That means we probably won't see a drop in the price of oil -- if any -- for another 22 years! Even then there would be no guarantee the price would be any cheaper.

Goatman-
re: "He's not my buddy. I've said many times I can't stand the man."

Is there a date on that? Like, when did you decide that?

This $9 bbl drop appears, though, to have had everything to do with OPEC's report today which reported a decrease in the demand for oil and speculators fear of being left holding the bag if we go into recession.

I wouldn't put much confidence in that report.

Auto sales are thriving in Asia. Any drop in consumption in the US is more than offset by increases in consumption in Asia.

" I've said many times I can't stand the man. "

I shook his hand in J. Frank Dobie's house.
With a dirty look from Laura.
(chuckle)

Double disgusting.

Still trying to wash out the damned spot.
Shivers and Connolly I liked.

Allan's sons are friends of mine.
John's daughter was my next-door neighbor in the early 70's.

Think fusion-fission hybrid breeder.
Makes more fuel than it uses and burns everything heavier than iron.

And if you can't understand it, you'll make nice fertilizer; No child left behind.

I just want my plutonium Tesla.

It takes 25,000 years to get to half a tank.

Here's the link to the article quoted in my 10:17 p.m. if anyone wants to double check it.

Ray

Just now saw your post questioning the same thing I was asking in my 10:39 p.m. I was typing away and hadn't seen it. Guess you don't believe OPEC either. Why would they make a statement such as that in their report today? What would be the purpose?

"Goatman-
re: "He's not my buddy. I've said many times"

[citation needed]

just want my plutonium Tesla.

It takes 25,000 years to get to half a tank.

Posted by Zatoichi at 2008-07-15 10:32 PM

Someday I'd like to take a field trip inside your mind. (grin)

"Someday I'd like to take a field trip inside your mind. (grin)"

Posted by CalifChris

Darlin',

In an AI world that is quite easy to do.

"It's all in the mind."

G Harrison

Consciousness is trivial.

Chris

I'm guessing that Paulson and company were putting pressure on OPEC to jawbone the issue. You can't trust anything that comes from officialdom. I was reading about world demand only recently.

Till tomorrow.

Well--wouldn't it be great to see the market after Congress agrees to drop the ban on drilling after Announcing it?

We need to do our own resourcing and get off foreign oil.

And how is it that Iraq pays 48 cents (?) when the global market is the price it is and the rest of the world pay so much more?

And if we had our own supply --could we or why couldn't we-- have our prices set here in the US with our own resources??

Mathematics OTOH.

ALS hasn't killed Steve yet.

What fun.

Like, when did you decide that?

Like, about 2 or 3 years into his first term

Well--wouldn't it be great to see the market after Congress agrees to drop the ban on drilling after Announcing it?

-- Murphy

Yep. If you don't mind sticking around for 22 years to see how much the price drops -- if at all.

...[lifting of the drilling moratorium] would: "not have a significant impact on domestic crude oil and natural gas production or prices before 2030... because oil prices are determined on the internationational market."

"And if we had our own supply --could we or why couldn't we-- have our prices set here in the US with our own resources??

Posted by MURPHY at 2008-07-15 10:54 PM | Reply | Flag:"

Ah, but that's leftist socialism according to "conservatives". Even in time of war our oil belongs to the global pool of oil as the highest sacrifice of patriotism. You do love America, don't you? Ask SeanR next time he's around. He'll be able to explain it to you.

And how is it that Iraq pays 48 cents

MURPHY

We're (the U.S.) subsidizing their gas prices indirectly. We pay for their reconstruction, they keep THAT money (we were supposed to be repaid with that money, remember Wolfowitz?) and subsidize their gas.

Kind of like how we're not supposed to fund the Israelis military directly?. They use our money for other things and spend their money on jets and bombs. Dance around the rules.

In both cases we end up paying for it.

"Like, about 2 or 3 years into his first term"

Wheeew! good. I was afraid you voted for him again. I do think your frequent and no-holds-barred approach to taking him on now are worthy of notice.

Just provide me an example of this and I'll get my ad guys on it first thing am.

Just provide me an example of this and I'll get my ad guys on it first thing am.

example of what?

Automated Reasoning: Essays in Honor of Woody Bledsoe (1991)

...[lifting of the drilling moratorium] would: "not have a significant impact on domestic crude oil and natural gas production or prices before 2030... because oil prices are determined on the internationational market."

???

And the markets won't react for 22 years?

Goatman-
re: "He's not my buddy. I've said many times"

An example of that. I was just looking for the best example you have of your recent disagreements with Bush's specific actions.

But wouldn't the announcement take the speculators out and take a hit?

And we could be producing quite a lot in 5 years if we did everything--

And if our refineries were built and filled that would increase the supply and bring down the price.

The big point is to get off foreign oil and get our own.

Brazil did it--the US can too.

An example of that. I was just looking for the best example you have of your recent disagreements with Bush's specific actions.

My user page. duh

You can decide which is the best.

Zat--your friend Woody--smart guy.

Murphy-
re: "The big point is to get off foreign oil and get our own."

Hello? Anyone at home? There is no difference on the global market(which is where "our" oil goes) determined by where it comes from.

And the markets won't react for 22 years?

Guess I was shopping at the wrong store. I was thinking oil market, not stock market.

I was just hoping for a pick from you, Goatman. (The pickens a bit slim?)

If the supply is increased the price comes down.

We can be drilling for gas--that would be our own and not set by global market.

dang italics

I have problems with italics too..;o)

Do you know your numbers and months in Spanish?

Guess I was shopping at the wrong store. I was thinking oil market, not stock market.

I was, too.

"If the supply is increased the price comes down."

Sure. And then that oil wouldn't be there anymore as it belongs to the market and not to the nation. AND YOU WOULD SAVE LIKE 14 CENTS OVER TWENTY YEARS.

Zat--your friend Woody--smart guy.

Posted by MURPHY

I loved my birthday party with Woody, the current dean of Engineering at UT and me with my Mac II ($5K).

We were talking about browsers.

You are all welcome to ask the current Dean of Engineering at the University of Texas, Ben Streetman, if this isn't true.

Ben always has a suit on.

Me, sandals and t shirts.

Rock on.

It's fun, being self-funded.

I own the computer taking the data.

hahahahahahahaha

If the supply is increased the price comes down.

In a domestic, not world wide market, increased supply would normally bring down the price.

But there is no way the U.S. could ever -- even opening for drilling every available spot here in the U.S. (including off shore) -- be able to produce more oil than will be demanded in near future by the likes of China, India, and other third world countries and have enough of a surplus to bring down our own cost of oil. The price will never come down.

Did you know Beijing puts 20,000 new cars on the road every month? Every single month. And there appears to be no end in sight as their economy allows more and more Chinese (by the millions) to be able to afford automobiles.

I stick to my same tired -- but true -- argument which is until we have alternative fuel, any oil extracted here in our own country (including off shore reserves) should NOT be dumped into the world common oil market.

Congress needs to demand that Americans get first dibs (at a fair price) on all oil here. But big oil doesn't want to do it that way. They seem to be more than happy to first fill up Wang Ho Lee's gas tank in China with oil gotten off our own coastlines than making sure Americans here in the U.S. get dibs on it first.

That is what happens when you do business with globalists. They have not a shred of loyalty to the U.S. or its citizens which allow big oil billions in tax breaks every year and provides them billions in subsidies. Why are we giving globalist companies anything>?

Do you know your numbers and months in Spanish?

Posted by MURPHY at 2008-07-15 11:18 PM

I can count to four in poker:

Nada, ducks, treys, quads, .....

Ah, got one wrong...

Nada, Ducks, Trips, Quads

There. That's better.

"Guess I was shopping at the wrong store. I was thinking oil market, not stock market.

- CalifChris"

I was, too.

Posted by goatman at 2008-07-15 11:21 PM

Okay, then, oil markets. At least I know we're now shopping at the same store.

But I don't quite get what you mean. Of course the current oil markets can and will be affected by a zillion things until our own oil supply from the U.S. (obtained after the moratorium is lifted) can be factored into the world wide oil market equasion. Wars, recessions, depressions, inflation -- a U.S. President sneezes one morning -- anything and everything make the markets jumpy -- both stock and oil markets.

Well, it's Tuesday so I need to take the trash barrels out to the curb for morning pick-up. Got chores to do.

LOL-

Twitchy loves it when people thinks he's smart...

look to Iran saying provocative things to get the oil prices back up:>)

A Phony Crisis--and a Real One, On The Path To War With Iran

And what were the results of last week's missile crisis in the Gulf? Tensions rose, strengthening Tehran's embattled Mahmoud Ahmadinejad. And oil prices shot from $136 a barrel to a record $147.
That $11-a-barrel spike alone translates into $25 million a day in fresh revenue for Ahmadinejad and Co. And as the United States imports 13 million of the 20 million barrels we daily consume, that $11 spike in price translates into $143 million more sucked out of the U.S. economy every day--into the coffers of Canada, Mexico, Venezuela, Saudi Arabia and OPEC.

Can we not see who benefits and who pays for this war talk?

Ben introduced me to Prince Charles when Charlie visited my lab back in '87.

Posted by Zatoichi

& you know me, too:>)

Bacon once claimed that he had worked with everyone in Hollywood - now you can test his claim. Sometimes it's called the Kevin Bacon Game, others call it: Six Degrees of Kevin Bacon - after the phrase: six degrees of separation. Use this application to determine the degree of separation between any two actors alive or dead! The higher the score the better. It's very hard to obtain a score higher than 6 - and it's very rare to find actors that aren't connected at all (have an undefined score). See if you can find a pair of actors with a score of greater than 6 or above!

Before any moratorium is officially is lifted by Congress, I wouldn't mind taking a look at who actually owns those leases.

I'd like to know what percentage of these leases are controlled by foreign stockholders either directly or through domestic subsidiaries.

Global capitalism being what it is, I wouldn't be surprised to learn that many, if not most, offshore leases are actually owned by foreign investment consortiums from Aisa and the Middle East regardless of what American name it operates under.

Mission Accomplished!

Go out and buy a new Hummer.

Stick head in sand.

All is well.

Move along.

This is just one thing that should be done. Drill, build nuclear, clean coal, solar, wind, alternative fuels in cars. We should do it all. To insist that we attack this in some half-assed manner (only drill or only conserve) is silly.

When people back themselves into a corner we become less effective.

The same is happening in Iraq, instead of both sides recognizing that they have been wrong at some point along the way and working to solve the problem, they continue to be entrenched in their positions.

Ah, history. I prefer the here and now.

No matter how long we stay in Iraq, no matter if eventually the situation improves, no matter what, we had no business invading, we couldn't afford the war, it has cost thousands of lives on both sides and it will never be anything except a fucking disaster. Yes, I am very entrenched in that position, it's called the truth.

Goatman has yet again proven that empty gestures by Bush can be spun into flimsy substance by Bush's apologists.

This discussion shows why I needed a break from the DR dumpster. Polarization in congress has nothing on the DR. No matter what Bush does, it is wrong. You libs who are voting for BO on the "Hope/Change" platform are doing nothing at the "grass roots" level to change the dialogue between opposing positions.

BUSH=WRONG is not an absolute just as BO=RIGHT is not an absolute. Both men make good and bad decisions. Saying that lifting the moratorium is an empty gesture - or the like, is just plain partisan. It is one of many steps - as sawdust stated. We will not be weaned off of oil anytime in the near future, so as we are looking for alternative energy sources we should also look for more oil.

How long do you think its going to take to get 200+ million cars off the American roads? Aint gonna happen in the next decade - no matter what you think. Just imagine the capital investment the public has in their autos. How many of you could just abandon your car and buy an electric model if it became available next week? No trade in value if it can't run on electricity or other alternative fuel source.

Bush has decided incorrectly on a multitude of issues-dropping the moratorium is not one of them. Quit being partisan - more domestic oil is good for the country no matter who's decision it was to lift the ban.

The title of this thread couldn't be anymore wrong, not to mention it's from an extremely slanted source. Crude prices fell because of a unexpected surge in US oil and gas supplies as well as a lower than expected demand. Not from Bush's dog and pony show. The drop in price has nothing to do with the possibility of off-shore drilling as some clowns would want you to believe.

Will the libs who have been lambasting 'do nothing' Bush admit he did something popsitive?--

YEAH!

Oh boy! Here we go again!

Mr. Golly Shucks is going to pretend Bushs actions had something to do with the drop in Crude Oil Prices only to later pretend Bush inst responsible for High Crude Oil Prices.

But I will play! So assume Bushs actions DID resulted in a drop of crude oil, then he is surly equally culpable for HIGH prices.
So in essence, the 267% increase in fuel costs during the Bush admins Super Secrete Energy Policy CAN be linked directly to Bush since a simple speech is all thats needed to influence the price (an action that apparently he could have done YEARS ago, like when the Rubber Stamps Still Had the Majority)!!

"You libs who are voting for BO on the "Hope/Change" platform are doing nothing at the "grass roots" level to change the dialogue between opposing positions."

That is just plain baloney but those on the extreme right, who still somehow support Bush may think that because the agenda of Bush and the Republican Party is being totally rejected in its entirety.
That doesn't mean though that there won't be compromise between the left and the center as Obama is now trying to achieve. There will be consensus but the right will just be completely left out of it, as it should be, as it has been historically until the past couple of decades when the right wing lunatics gained acceptance into mainstream politics strictly because of media ownership and control. In a nation with a real free media with diversified ownership thugs like Limbaugh could never achieve such a large audience, Americans could not be convinced to vote against their own interests. It may just end up that the reaction of this country to the DEPRESSION which the extreme right has caused will be the complete restructuring of the media and the break up of the virtual monopolies that have propagandized this country and now have brought it almost do bankruptcy.
Limbaugh may start whining that libs are trying to take him off the air, well if the DEPRESSION is serious enough he may be glad if that is all that happens to him.

I want to know where Tigerbalm is. I told him that this would happen last week.

Speculators are predicting what the future holds. When they looked at the future as of last week, they said, "The supply of oil is not going to increase in the future, therefore the cost will inevitably go up."

I argued that it is the future supply of energy that speculators are betting on and that's why the price is so high. It's because we refuse to increase our supply of energy that the speculators can say:

"Well, if the major user of oil is not going to develop it's oil fields then the supply is going to continue to dwindle and an ever growing world population will continue to compete for dwindling resources."

And prices rise.

It's called Supply and Demand. It's basic economics. Unfortunately you leftists adhere to the economic practice of Emotion and Screaming. That's never going to work out so well.

Yeah Sean, it's supply and demand, so a rumor that we may increase the supply of crude by approx. 2% in the next twenty years will have an immediate effect on current prices. Uh huh. I bet you were one of the dumb kids who got the easy reader in third grade.

"well if the DEPRESSION is serious enough" - DANNI

What the hell are you talking about? We are nowhere near a depression. We are not even in a recession. Drivel on DANNI.

Unemployment Rate:
5.5% in Jun 2008 = 94.5% employed!

Average Hourly Earnings:
+$0.06(p) in Jun 2008

Productivity:
+2.6% in 1st Qtr of 2008

And by the by, can you provide one example of BO compromising with the opposing view in his voting record? Even one example does not prove a trend. As I stated in my soapbox post, your partisanship blinds you - and others. BO is not going to change much - if anything at all. Wake up.

"What the hell are you talking about? We are nowhere near a depression. We are not even in a recession. Drivel on DANNI."

Yeah you probably believe that we invaded Iraq because of the WMDs too. Get a clue, they are lying to you about the economy, unemployment, inflation, everything and the entire economic system is teetering. You can deny it if you want but there are lines at one bank already and more will follow. GM is virtually bankrupt and you know what they say about GM...."As goes General Motors so goes the nation."
The economic situation is going to be a test for right wingers, it will test their ability to continue spouting talking points even as the ground crumbles and disappears beneath their feet....reminiscent of Baghdad Bob or whatever his name was who was bragging about the victorious Iraqi military with American tanks visible in the background. But remember Jesus loves those who deny reality and speak the talking points.

"Unemployment Rate:
5.5% in Jun 2008 = 94.5% employed!"

hahahahahahahaha!!!!

Did you keep a straight face when you typed that???

Danni,

As a highly regulated industry, oil IS largely a supply and demand curve.

If you disagree with my assertion, please expound.

DANNI

Looking at your 5.4% - 94.5% I thought it's ironic that it's estimated 5% of our workforce are illegal aliens.

Danni

I see Reason and Logic are YOUR kryptonite.

Let me help you with this. We have trillions of barrels of oil, trillions of square feet of natural gas, and more coal than any other country. In case you are more stupid than I thought, coal can be converted to gasoline.

Now, if we develop those resources (it won't take 20 years idiot) and we add nuclear and coal power plants, if we develop solar and build wind turbine farms the U.S. will ultimately be removed from the world as THE major consumer of the world supply. What do you think that would do to the price of oil considering we use about 25% of the world supply?

The price will drop before one barrel is produced because SPECULATORS invest in the future. That's what "speculate" means. If the U.S. signals to the world that we are going to develop our own natural resources then the oil we take off the world market now will become available to other countries.

The price of gasoline is determined by the FUTURE'S MARKET. That's the market that the SPECULATORS work in. I can't say it any clearer.

You really are stupid aren't you Danni? I mean, it's not a condition that has a diagnosis is it? Your whole family is a bunch of morons isn't it?

Geez, you leftists should at least learn what capitalism is even if your political philosophy is diametrically opposed to it.

"As a highly regulated industry, oil IS largely a supply and demand curve."

With very large funds able to buy huge amounts on spec. they can easily manipulate the market as I suspect they are doing right now to get the drilling leases they want. They'll now let the price fall a bit to fool the morons like SEANR that Bush's speech really somehow effected the amount of supply when it obviously couldn't because it would still require Congressional approval and oh....ten years before a single additional drop of oil could flow.

"Geez, you leftists should at least learn what capitalism is even if your political philosophy is diametrically opposed to it."

With the bank bailouts of late it is surprising that you would have the nerve to even use the word "capitalism" when, in reality, corporate America is going to be saved by socialism. Socialize the losses, privatize the profits. Great scheme, all that is required is a nation of SEANRs.

Danni,

With very large funds able to buy huge amounts on spec. they can easily manipulate the market as I suspect they are doing right now to get the drilling leases they want.

So, they are all-powerful then?

"Well, I can think og 3 all-powerful corporations"

So, how are the Big-3 doing these days?

Their collective lifeblood was SUV's.

How's that going?

Danni

Once again you fail to understand something basic.

The mortgage crisis was brought on by socialists who insisted that people who didn't meet basic CAPITALIST measures of who was qualified for a loan be given a loan.

In other words, yes it was greed, but that greed was driven by a demand from Jesse Jackson and Al Sharpton MANY YEARS AGO. They were accusing banks of being racists. Yes, it's true. They demanded that banks make more money available to minorities even though the minorities in question had poor credit ratings and by every measure weren't qualified for the loans they were getting.

Capitalism poisoned by politically correct demands by those renowned Socialists Jesse Jackson and Al Sharpton made the banks and other financial institution do things they otherwise would not have done.

It was political pressure from socialists that made the banks give loans to people who weren't qualified. Why do you think those loans are going bad now? It's becaue of political pressure that was applied many years ago.

"The mortgage crisis was brought on by socialists who insisted that people who didn't meet basic CAPITALIST measures of who was qualified for a loan be given a loan."

hahahahaha! Riiiight. You are so full of shit that it is hilarious. It's one thing to drink Kool Aide but I think bathing in it too is ridiculous plus it makes you skin a funny color of green.
You should win an award for being the last one in America who still believes the talking points. It proves loyalty, stupidty yes, but loyalty too and loyalty is a virutous thing.

The price of gasoline is determined by the FUTURE'S MARKET. That's the market that the SPECULATORS work in.-- -- Seanr

Did you get RiRs approval for this statement? Could have sworn he believes that anyone who thinks speculators affect the price of oil is crazy. Or is there a different mechanism for gasoline from that of oil?

Jeff, the formerly big three automakers are pretty shaky right now because their incredibly stupid management continued to base their business model on products that won't sell with high gas prices. Any nit wit could have predicted gas prices were not ever going down so why would these guys continue basing their profit on SUVs. The managers of all three should be homeless and hungry like those who have lost jobs, lost their retirements, etc. There should be no mercy for these failures their stupidity has harmed too many people. In China they would be shot.

Cool. I waited until I knew you were online zat before I started this thread. I wanted to see how long it would take to hook you with a misspelled word and make you respond with '(sic)'. 4 minutes. You danced to my tune like Fred Astaire. Pretty damn good. But I'm throwing you bak so I can catch you aggain.

You are too easy and and boringly predictible. Still -- knowing I can force you to type a specific string across cyberspace is funny.

Posted by goatman at 2008-07-15 09:29 PM | Reply | Flag:

No you didn't! You simply fucked up the spelling. Be a man, admit and move on.

Whose talking points am I going by? It certainly isn't the Republican party. They're scared shitless of saying this. You think they want to take on Jesse Jackson or Al Sharpton? Hah!

The Republicans would rather blame me for the mortgage crisis. They would run away and hide before they ran the risk of being called a racist by a couple of racist shake down artists.

You think I'm repeating some politically correct version of what's been happening? Hell, no one on TV except maybe Glenn Beck would say something so obvious as this.

The loans that are going bad should never have been made in the first place. The only reason they were made is because Al Sharpton and Jesse Jackson accused the bankers of being racist.

We have to reduce our dependence on foreign sources of energy.

It is not good for the US to send US dollars to foreign despots for oil and gas so they can fund the schools for their teachers to tell the kids to hate the US.

We have our own resources and the dollars should stay here.

We have to start now as it's BS to keep kicking the can down the road--claiming that "it will take 10 years".

Well get off the pot and start it now.

Brazil did it so can the US. But all these folks with "We can't attitudes" are screwing the US people.

Does anyone know what the speculators might have lost with the drop of oil at $9.00??

GM is virtually bankrupt and you know what they say about GM...."As goes General Motors so goes the nation."

Yeah, this explains a lot about your economic knowledge. This saying has not been applicable for decades. The Federal Government employs more people than the big three combined.

The big three waited too long to change from profitable SUV's to more economic models.

Drivel on DANNI. BTW, looking forward to those oil rigs off the Florida coast? I am.

FYI

The oil speculators are doing nothing wrong. They are simply speculating on the future energy supplies and investing money accordingly.

Leftists have made them scapegoats for their own behavior. Democrats have refused for 30 years to allow us to meet our energy needs.

However, things are about to change and people like Danni will have to change her version of events. Congress will be forced to act and as soon as legislation becomes law the price will drop. Yes, without one drop of oil coming out of the ground. Why? Because then the speculators will see more energy IN THE FUTURE and will bet against rising prices.

However, I fear that oil prices (a.k.a FUTURES) will go back up in the near future when the world market (SPECULATORS) realize Democrats in congress are going to remain stubborn.

This is really very simple stuff.

"The loans that are going bad should never have been made in the first place. The only reason they were made is because Al Sharpton and Jesse Jackson accused the bankers of being racist."

They were only made because the mortgages were going to be sold to other investors. Deregulation is what has caused this mess even if your racism causes you to believe otherwise. Get a fucking clue nit wit.....thousands of white folks are defaulting too.

"The big three waited too long to change from profitable SUV's to more economic models."

Oh I see ELCID, when you say this it is smart but when I say virtually the exact same thing it isn't.

"looking forward to those oil rigs off the Florida coast? I am."

Doesn't matter too much anyway, after Jeb got through screwing up Florida it is pretty much a toilet anyway.

Seanr,

My sole point was that RiR indicated that the only ones who believed that speculators affected the price of oil were the stupid left--. I was merely wondering when you became part of that stupid left--.

BTW, since you see the entire energy situation as really very simple stuff--, I suggest you start giving classes to the many economists who think otherwise. Hell, you could probaly charge big bucks for those classes.

Danni

Yes, they were made and sold to other investors like Freddie Mac and Fannie Mae.

The original loans were politically pressured by Al Sharpton and Jesse Jackson many years ago. The loans were given just a few years ago, but all this is because Jesse Jackson accused the bankers of being racist more than 10 years ago.

Thomas Sowell:

One of the things that happens when you get old is that what seems like news to others can look like a re-run of something you have already seen before. It is like watching an old movie for the fifth or sixth time.

A headline in the September 14th issue of the New York Times says: "Blacks Hit Hardest By Costlier Mortgages." Thirteen years ago, virtually the identical story appeared in the Wall Street Journal under the title, "Federal Reserve Details Pervasive Racial Gap in Mortgage Lending."

Both stories are based on statistical studies by the Federal Reserve showing that blacks and whites have different experiences when applying for mortgage loans and both stories imply that racial discrimination is the reason.

This mortgage mess started 13 years ago Danni. You have no idea what you're talking about.

OK Sean, have it your way, it's all them black folks who are causing this crisis. Believe your KKK wizard if you want but I'll listen to economists.

FYI

The premise is very simple. It's Supply and Demand. Present AND Future Supply and Present AND Future Demand.

THAT'S not at all complicated.

Thomas Sowell:

Over the past three decades, Sowell has taught economics at various colleges and universities, including Cornell, Amherst, and the University of California at Los Angeles, as well as the history of ideas at Brandeis University. He has also been associated with three other research centers, in addition to the Hoover Institution. He was project director at the Urban Institute from 1972 to 1974, a fellow at the Center for Advanced Study in the Behavioral Sciences at Stanford University in 197677, and was an adjunct scholar of the American Enterprise Institute in 1975-76.

Sowell was awarded the National Humanities Medal in 2002. In 2003, Sowell received the Bradley Prize for intellectual achievement. Sowell received his bachelors degree in economics (magna cum laude) from Harvard in 1958, his masters degree in economics from Columbia University in 1959, and his Ph.D. in economics from the University of Chicago in 1968.

Yeah, I'm a racist. That's how you leftists try to end debate. It won't work this time.

The title of this thread couldn't be anymore wrong, not to mention it's from an extremely slanted source....

ha ha ha ha ha ha

"Yeah, I'm a racist. That's how you leftists try to end debate. It won't work this time."

Er...I'm pretty sure it has, you better get going, you'll be late for your KKK meeting.

Thanks for admitting that you tried to end the debate by calling me a racist. That's what you leftists do. As soon as you lose the debate you accuse the people who bested you of being a racist. I have news for you. When you get so angry that you resort to insults, you've already lost. When you have no retort except insults, it means that you are intellectually defeated.

Btw. You forgot to call me a homophobe.

"Doesn't matter too much anyway, after Jeb got through screwing up Florida it is pretty much a toilet anyway. " - DANNI

Just got back from the west coast - looked great to me!

I was agreeing with you about the big three production miscue - not however on the "General" comment - that is surely no longer applicable.

Unions have as much to do with domestic auto company failures as anything else.

"Unions have as much to do with domestic auto company failures as anything else."

Yeah, the unions demanded that they keep building large gas guzzlers. I wouldn't say they helped but I don't blame them for the really poor management.

"I was agreeing with you about the big three production miscue - not however on the "General" comment - that is surely no longer applicable."

I agree, that was a pretty old slogan.

"Thanks for admitting that you tried to end the debate by calling me a racist."

Debate??? There was no debate, you started with your nonsense about black people being to blame for the mortgage crisis and then it just became a joke.

DANNI - the car manufacturers produce what the people want (free market). Had the majority of buyers wanted small vehicles that would have been the majority of the inventory. You believe, like many on the left, that people should be presented with only what you think they should have - you would have been a good party member in the old USSR.

Just brought a Sonata for my wife and we chose the 6V version rather than the 4 cyl version as to us, having good pickup is just as important as gas mileage. I'm sure you would have gone for the 4 banger and that's the beauty of freedom - CHOICE!

"You believe, like many on the left, that people should be presented with only what you think they should have - you would have been a good party member in the old USSR."

Not true, most manufacturers make large vehicles too but they didn't only concentrate on them, they didn't stay out of the small car market almost entirely here in the US. That is bad management. Any idiot could have predicted that the car market was going to move towards smaller cars as gas prices rose, they should have been prepared and they weren't. I do not believe the government should dictate what manufacturers build but I do believe that government should enact standards like CAFE to encourage them to build more efficient vehicles, its in our national interest. We have troops in Iraq for crying out loud, we are in a war, we have the right to tell manufacturers that we will penalize those who buy gas guzzlers instead of rewarding them with tax credits for Hummers.

I didn't say black people were the only cause. Sure, most of the failed mortgages were probably white people, but the whole lowering of standards began when Jesse Jackson accused the bankers of being racist.

That opened the flood gates.

You really have no clue, do you? This isn't an act? You believe that this just happened randomly and was not triggered by anything except capitalist greed.

You don't believe anything was in place to prevent this from happening 50 years ago? You don't think any changes were made as recently as 12 years ago in mortgage application standards that made it possible for people who shouldn't get loan to get those loans.

"but the whole lowering of standards began when Jesse Jackson accused the bankers of being racist."

Oh, and deregulation had nothing to do with it???
Yes, there were regulations that would have prevented this but banking regulations were pretty much eliminated by Ronnie Raygun, Bush I, Clinton and Bush II. Then Alan Greenspan colluded with George Bush to make it appear that the Bush tax cuts for the rich were causing the economy to boom when in fact it wasn't. Jobs weren't being created, wages were stagnant but funds were available through equity loans at variable...extremely low 'teaser' rates and that money did make the economy seem to boom. When interest rates were finally raised, because of fears of inflation, the bubble burst and values crashed while at the same time interest rates rose forcing many into foreclosure who had thought the appreciation of their house would allow further borrowing. Sure some black folks may have had homes and have been effected but it was the the Republican Congress and President who passed the tax cut, the Fed that lowered the interest rates, and deregulation which allowed mortgages that would previously never been allowed that caused the mess.

Seanr,

When someone tells you that something like an economic situation or oil crisis is simple--, I guarantee you they are talking out of their asses. The oil crisis _is_ a crisis of supply and demand, and much more. But the solution is anything but simple. All increasing oil supply will do is push the problem a few years into the future. That is _not_ a solution.

BTW, Thomas Sowell is known as someone who comes up with a theory, then finds anything he can to support that theory and says voila--. Not sound practice. Quoting him as an authority is like quoting your favorite far-left columnist.

Larry Kudlow: Hack

I enjoy reading the Corner on the National Review Online because it's always good to get the other side's perspective, and they have some intelligent and thoughtful writers working for them.

Larry Kudlow is not one of them.

Kudlow's specialty is linking economic news to political events in such a way as to prove the correctness of conservative ideas about the economy. . .

The price will fall dramatically further when we announce plans to drill on the miniscule acreage that looks like total wasteland and is the size of JFK airport in the vast, pristine wilderness that we all love, known as the Alaskan National Wildlife Reserve.

All that's needed now is the courage and leadership required to make the no-brainer decision.

So, which candidate will be the first to change his opinion? Either, neither? Which Party in Congress will introduce legislation? One will, but will the motivation be GREED on behalf of the evil oil companies and big business as half of you believe, or will it be truly for the citizens and our national security?

You make the call...

FYI

It is simple. Drill, drill and then drill some more and the price will fall. Only the truly ignorant do not get the connection between a dwindling supply and a growing demand. Only the most dense people cannot make that simple connection.

You want it to be difficult because the simple truth is that you leftists allowed us to get into this mess to begin with. For 30 years you wouldn't let us drill, you wouldn't let us build refineries, you wouldn't let us have nuclear or coal power plants and now you won't let us use wind power if it blocks Ted Kennedy's view.

Your side will give in and let us drill. And then the price will come down drastically. Eventually you will lose this argument or you will lose at the ballot box and then lose the argument. It's your choice.

My gold investments are up 40% in the last few years. Ray was right on the money on that one.

I fail to be convinces that there is more than a coincidental linkage. Baby Bush always wanted the moratorium lifted, and he's getting progress, but the oil sheiks are realizing that their soul mates are moving out of power soon. They are scared of that. They are also scared that a global recession will do more to cut consumption than any demands by Bush for conservation.

I fail to be convinced that there is more than a coincidental linkage. Baby Bush always wanted the moratorium lifted, and he's getting progress, but the oil sheiks are realizing that their soul mates are moving out of power soon. They are scared of that. They are also scared that a global recession will do more to cut consumption than any demands by Bush for conservation.

Here is something that probably contributed a bit more to the change in oil prices: The US signaled a major policy shift towards Iran, announcing that a senior US diplomat would attend talks with Iran and other major powers over Tehran's nuclear program.

William Burns, the US under-secretary of state, is to attend the weekend meeting in Geneva along with other members of the P5 plus one group which includes also Britain, China, France, Russia, and Germany.

"This will be a one time US participation," White House spokeswoman Dana Perino said, reported Agence France Presse (AFP).

The US is among the six powers which have offered a package of incentives, including direct contact and dialogue, if Iran suspends its nuclear program.

The aim is "to demonstrate that the P5 plus one ... is united in its longstanding principle that Iran, in order to take advantage of an incentives package that is quite generous, has to halt its nuclear enrichment," Perino added.

Burns' presence at the weekend meeting marks a clear shift in its policy towards Tehran.

In the past, the Bush administration has insisted that no talks will be held with Iranian officials until Tehran suspends its nuclear enrichment program.

I think TOWNNCOUNTRY's post hit it right.

Thanks for the props, Danni.

"Democrats brought forth their 'Use It or Lose It' bill without knowing it was already the law of the land," said GOP Whip Roy Blunt, R-Mo. "Today we're reminded that the majority's efforts to 'unlock' NPR-A are about as necessary as passing a bill ordering the sun to rise."

Seanr, first, I hate to break it to you, but I'm an independent. And we independents really don't care about rantings. We like seeing evidence. Second, I'm sure you haven't noticed, but all you're doing is repeating yourself. The idea of presenting a position is to lay out an argument, then lay out evidence to support it, then defend that argument. What you're doing may, at times, work in a grade school playground, but not in real life.

Any nit wit could have predicted gas prices were not ever going down so why would these guys continue basing their profit on SUVs.

I completely agree. At least an auto company can (in theory) revamp their line up and make structural changes over the course of several years.

I think the really big issue is why our government, at every level, promoted transportation and growth policies that essentially banked on a perpetual supply of cheap oil. We're now stuck with the majority of Americans living in low density developments and thousands of miles of highways.

It'll be nearly impossible to retrofit most suburbs to work with any kind of mass transit. We've also invested trillions of dollars on highways and transportation. We now have an interstate system that is funded through the gas tax and we care barely afford to maintain it as it is. Once people start using less gas, it'll be impossible to maintain.

Compared to fixing our transportation/development mess, the Big 3 have it easy.

I think TOWNNCOUNTRY's post hit it right
Posted by danni at 2008-07-17 09:31 AM

Too bad townncountrys dissertation was taken directly off the news wire. Typical Lib, too stupid to have an independent thought. BTY TC that is call Plagiarism!!!!

They only beat up others for that mutt, they reserve their right to plagiarize daily!

Gee oil dropped again today to 130, down 15 in two days. exxon dropped from 94 to 81, instead of celebrating they are morning. It's the dem thing to do, afetr all they love to hate and blame and...fuck the US!!!!!

Oil prices have gone up 300% in the eight years Bush and Cheney have been in office. Oil speculators have doubled since 2000. Figure it out for yourselves.

America is a drug addict. Oil is the drug. You speak endlessly of giving up the habit, and yet you buy more and more.

We become wealthy. We buy up your businesses and priceless art works. Americas mindless greed will be its downfall.