Have to love that NAFTA baby!

You also have to love the fact that this company has had considerable losses over some period of time and
these emergency" actions could have been phases in over several previous years. Now they are making huge instant stop gap(?) measures to "prepare" for hard times. Just what do the consider hard times? Huge quarterly losses (with a few winners) and all economic indicators of future down turns.

Why has GM waited till the need to make a survival reorganization? Could money in some pockets have had anything to do with any delays?

"It said it could capture those savings through ... some retiree health-care coverage..."

Gotta love when they break a contract they made with people who are no longer there, who no longer have any leverage. And their union will let them get away with it.

Perfect example of why we need tariffs to the cheap products sent our way by China, Brazil, etc. Do you think China or Japan give a rats ass about the free-market? Of course they don't, they do what is best for their economy and to hell with what anyone else thinks. We need to have the same mentality here.

"Perfect example of why we need tariffs to the cheap products sent our way by China, Brazil, etc."

Now we're on the same page!!!
"Free Trade" was sold to us just like Corn Flakes.
There is no such thing, never has been, never will be. As long as there are nations there won't be real free trade.
It is simply idiotic for Americans to think that they benefit by sending their own jobs overseas and importing the goods back here. Just the waste of fuel resources alone should be enough to convince us that it isn't an efficient way to supply ourselves.

Perfect example of why we need tariffs to the cheap products sent our way by China, Brazil, etc. Do you think China or Japan give a rats ass about the free-market? Of course they don't, they do what is best for their economy and to hell with what anyone else thinks. We need to have the same mentality here.

Posted by taxman

But we're capitalists, tax. Capital knows no nor owes any loyalty to any nation's interests.

China's got the 'Piracy Police' - a new detail - clearing the streets of Beijing for the Olympics so westerners won't see the mass piracy of our copyrighted softward, DVD's, and music.

I'm sure they'll bring the boxes back out the day after the Olympics are over.

" Do you think China or Japan give a rats ass about the free-market? Of course they don't, they do what is best for their economy and to hell with what anyone else thinks."

That's exactly right. Both of those economies have a large degree of state intervention and protectionism.

Yeah...Nationalism!!!!!!

Japan and China have changed quite a bit, both have opened markets to the rest of the world, with capital and goods flowing both directions.

State protectionism within Japan is mostly gone.(except agricultural, but dont we do the same?). But what does exist, is "good-ole" boy network of connections and ways of doing business. The Japanese believe they are taking the long view in not taking the cheaper price, but the long relationship.

The protectionism is not as bad as Americans like Nulli tend to think, but not as good as the Japanese say either...

How much would they save if they canned the CEO and all senior management?

It's all in their mind. Bunch of whiners.

John McBullshit.

Five years ago my son left GM for XOM. We should change his middle name to serendipity.

"Have to love that NAFTA baby!"

Gee, I didn't know Toyota, Honda, etc, who are kicking the Big Three's ass, were from NAFTA countries.

Two things to keep in mind:

1. Foreign car companies are IN-SOURCING jobs to the united states, see back page "The Winner Is" thread.

2. GM, according to what I hear, is actually doing well abroad, it's just the North American market that sucks. If it wasn't for global trade (I won't call frre trade, cause it isn't) they would worse off.

And also, if they make cars people don't want to buy, why should NAFTA be blamed for that?

"Gotta love when they break a contract they made with people who are no longer there, who no longer have any leverage. And their union will let them get away with it."

Either that or else. i am sure GM sat the union bosses down and told then either they go along or the company opts for bankruptcy and the judge can do away will contracts taht are burdensome, including labor contracts.

Those retirees have medicare anyways, isn't that what you Liberals want, for the govt to give old people health care? Are workers already paying taxes so those retirees can have health care?

it's just the North American market that sucks

And the reason for that is???????

Free trade.

How soon 'til Ford buys out GM? Or will it be Honda? Toyota? Within the next year?

Porsche + Tesla + plutonium

It's time.

I'll be busy for a while.

Later.

ZAT

I read one Tesla biography, "Master of Lightning". It was very good. Are there any you've read you'd recommend?

When I saw the title I thought it was another book about Charles Proteus Steinmetz. I'd read one about him when I was 12 or so called, "The Man Who Tamed Lightning", and thought it was perhaps another bio of him, but much to my enjoyment it was about Tesla.

My dad saw Tesla when my dad was a student at Cass Technical High School in Detroit in the 1930's (my folks were in their 40's when I was 3). He told me about the demonstration with electricity where Tesla shot a million low amp volts through himself.

Back to my question. Have you read any others, and if so what would you recommend besides Cheney's book?

(if you were referring to Tesla the car then disregard my post unless you have read any you'd recommend)

2. GM, according to what I hear, is actually doing well abroad, it's just the North American market that sucks. If it wasn't for global trade (I won't call frre trade, cause it isn't) they would worse off.

Thank you Senator Mcsame. Mexicans and Colombians will build cars cheaply (with plenty of storage spaces too).

GM told its suppliers they had to get 50% of their components from China if they wanted to do business with the General.

Remember the old saying what's good for General Motors is good for the USA?", change USA to third world and you've got the Right's world view. And they call themselves patriots...

RE: Colombia deal, How thick-headed are you Liberals? Colombia products already come in to the U.S. with little or no tarrifs. Our products face a 35% tarrif over ther. Unde rthe Colombia deal, those tarrifs in Colombia would be gone. What is the downside here?

And since when do you Liberals like the auto-industry anyways? All you guys want to do is bankrupt it with your damn milleage standards, now you bitch and complain. Make up your mind.

"All you guys want to do is bankrupt it with your damn milleage standards"

And just think how great the U.S. energy situation would be if we didn't have those damn CAFE standards!

Nulli,

"And just think how great the U.S. energy situation would be if we didn't have those damn CAFE standards!"

It would be better than it is today....

Thats because today more people can drive at a lower cost per mile, thus increasing both number of cars, and the miles driven (3000 -> 12000)....

Imagine how many people would be driving at 14MPG, its the same as having a high cost per gallon. We would be less dependent upon cars...

We would have looked and demanded alternatives to driving....perhaps not perpetuating the suburbia we know today.

Wagoner the current CEO makes a few and some change.

Wagner should take a cue from Lee Iacocca, who worked for $1 a year and stock options.

By doing that he squelched all dissent from the union workers who felt like he was on their team.

I hope the Chevy Volt works out for GM. It'd be a shame to see what was once the largest company in the world go into insolvency.

Of course, no one but the guys in the Ren Cen (headquarters) make the calls about what vehicles to build.

No doubt they wish they hadn't killed that other electric car they had years ago. But, currently they have almost the entire GM Tech Center (1 square mile) dedicated to the Volt, and have hired top notch people on the battery and design teams. Fortunately, THIS time they've given them whatever resources they ask for bar none.

Good luck.

"It would be better than it is today...."

In other words, inflict the pain earlier. Which is why gas taxes should've been imposed decades ago.

nullifidian, there is a difference between "inflicting" pain aerlier because there are not CAFE standards and doing it through taxes. The difference is that the first would have been a market mechanism. The second would have been the govt using using as social enginerring.

That is precisely what is wrong with our tax code, it is an instrument of social engineering, as opposed to rules for "generating" government revenue.

You have things backwards. Gas taxes amplify market signals. A market-based approach would certainly favor gas taxes over CAFE standards.

Gas prices don't include the negative externalities associated with petroleum consumption, such as pollution, traffic congestion, heath care costs from airborn pollution, the cost of a military able to keep pipelines and shipping lanes open, etc.

Of course, the usual subjects don't want to pay for the full costs of their petroleum consuming behavior.

GM is just a giant HMO. They will never be competitive with the union noose around their necks.

Perfect example of why we need tariffs to the cheap products sent our way by China, Brazil, etc. Do you think China or Japan give a rats ass about the free-market? Of course they don't, they do what is best for their economy and to hell with what anyone else thinks. We need to have the same mentality here.

Posted by taxman at 2008-07-15 11:40 AM

What utter nonsense, those cheaper products make us all richer, our money goes further thus we are better off. GM's problems are a result of mismanagement for the past 50 years. (probably longer) Tariffs will only hurt lower income people.

"What utter nonsense, those cheaper products make us all richer, our money goes further thus we are better off."

Oh yeah, we can all see how much better off we are, the economy is in the toilet, unemployment way up, inflation rising, deficit growing......Hell I just hope we don't get any "richer."
It is amazing to me how completely brain washed most Americans are these days.
Everyday I read posts of average folks defending outsourcing, illegal immigration, deficit spending, foreign wars for resources, insurance companies that rip people off, banks and mortgage companies who get into trouble and expect help from us taxpayers.....Americans don't think any more, they just repeat the talking points that the media gives them.

Wake up people. It IS going to get a hell of a lot worse before it gets any better too. Bank on it, count on it. AND, know what, it makes no difference what the color of the stripe is or whether it is a democrat or republican or liberal or conservative or whatever we call these damned idiots.

The snow ball has left the top of the mountain and is gaining speed AND being packed with more snow with every revolution. The bottom is a long way into the future so buckle up your seat belts and hang on.

A typical recession lasts anywhere from 12 to 18 months. The housing market is not even close to leveling out, the dollar is in the toilet and nobody wants dollars anymore and if they do accept the dollar they want MORE and MORE of them for the product they are selling. (INCREASE THE INTEREST RATES WOULD CERTAINLY HELP PROP THE DOLLAR UP) and nobody has accepted reality yet.

As the govmnt tries to bail out the American consumer with hand outs for gas, expenses, milk, houses, insurance, medical and what the hell else it is printing money for, the value of the dollar continues to fall into the abyss. Free money is worthless! We are turning into a socialist society where the handouts increase, productivity decreases and the nation fails.

Me??? I am gold and CASH. Some commodities.
Hang on

Aw hell, I am through here

Everyday I read posts of average folks defending outsourcing, illegal immigration, deficit spending, foreign wars for resources, insurance companies that rip people off, banks and mortgage companies who get into trouble and expect help from us taxpayers

Posted by danni at 2008-07-16 08:02 AM | Reply

Amazing how the whole world is out of step with Danni, and only she understands what is really going on.

Oh speak Great Danni! Let your Danni Drivel(tm) enrich our feeble minds!

Well, at least you got all your talking points in early today.

BTW, you still enjoying that foreign car of yours? My Honda was built in Ohio, by Americans

" either they go along or the company opts for bankruptcy and the judge can do away will contracts that are burdensome, including labor contracts."

Which means once again, the only group who will have kept their side of the bargain is the workers.

"Those retirees have medicare anyways, isn't that what you Liberals want, for the govt to give old people health care? Are workers already paying taxes so those retirees can have health care?"

Well, first off, all Americans 65 & older qualify for Medicare, and yes, our current taxes pay for their current benefits; it's always been like that. So I'll assume you were talking about health care during retirement, which was negotiated by the GM team in exchange for wage-givebacks.

However, that benefit was stripped by a bankruptcy judge when GM claimed it was too onerous, so the GM retirees DON'T get that benefit. And so again, the only group who lived up to what it promised: the workers, even though there are two sets of signatures on every agreement: workers, and management.

"GM ... is actually doing well abroad, it's just the North American market that sucks."

As is Ford.

Americans have always had their own unique taste in vehicles, usually tending on the large and ostentatious and wasteful. And the US market has always been highly restricted. What the Big 3 manufactures for the US generally stays in the US. What Ford and GM world manufacture overseas tends to stay in those markets. This has come to bite the US car companies in their big fat bloated asses along with the big fat bloated customers who buy the big fat bloated product. And it has seemed that most ventures by the Big 3 into manufacturing a small, reliable, quality vehicle usually ended up in miserable failure.

This is the wake-up call not only for the domestic car manufacturers but also the domestic car buyer. There is going to be pain, lots and lots of pain.

Will the lesson be learned? Maybe. I hope so.

"My Honda was built in Ohio, by Americans"

Posted by vernon

And the bulk of the profit for that Honda went to:

Tokyo, for the Japanese.

Save your smugness for something you can rationally defend.

I still haven't got over Hudson and Studebaker.

Where can I go to get a new Studebaker, HUH???

You have things backwards. Gas taxes amplify market signals. A market-based approach would certainly favor gas taxes over CAFE standards.

Posted by nullifidian

CAFE is pure idiocy, as is a federally-mandated 55 MPH speed limit. 55 MPH would sodomize the entire trucking industry (travelling long distances) and would thus sodomize any business that relies moderately to heavily on trucking to deliver product.

These skyrocketing gas prices already have and will continue to stimulate conservation.

those cheaper products make us all richer

If someone doesn't have a job, it doesn't matter how cheap those products are.

"These skyrocketing gas prices already have and will continue to stimulate conservation."

No chit, mon!

$52.44 I paid this morn for 13.18 gallons of no-ethanol 85 octane unleaded.

As a result of the "skyrocketing gas prices," I have employing various modifications to how I drive, including coasting a lot, using the cruise control, slower accelerations, flying a little slower that the posted speed limits, and keeping a close eye on the readouts from my ScanGauge. I have raised my mpg from 25-26 to 30-31. That is significant. I am also convinced that the no-ethanol gas contributes greatly.

You have things backwards. Gas taxes amplify market signals. A market-based approach would certainly favor gas taxes over CAFE standards.

Posted by nullifidian

AMPLIFYING market signals implies manipulating market signals (in this case to achieve whatever social goal a government deems worthy). It is social engineering.

1. Foreign car companies are IN-SOURCING jobs to the united states, see back page "The Winner Is" thread.

I give a lot of credit for them bringing jobs to the USA, but foreign car makers are out sourcing too. I have a coworker who drives a Honda CRV that was hecho en mexico. So I guess he indirectly created jobs in Mexico and sent the profit to Japan.

I haven't owned a GM vehicle in a very long time. But it's still sad to witness what's currently happening to them. GM used to be the largest employer in the US and set a high bar for wages and benefits and provided a lot of middle class jobs.

It seems fitting that they passed the torch to a company that really symbolizes the 21st century in terms of employee/employer relations: Wal Mart.

To the Germans, we are now Mexicans. VW just announced opening a new plant in Nashville.

"To the Germans, we are now Mexicans .........."

Too bad Germany is so far away, we can't just sneak across their border and get jobs over there.

Oh yeah, we can all see how much better off we are, the economy is in the toilet, unemployment way up, inflation rising, deficit growing......Hell I just hope we don't get any "richer."
It is amazing to me how completely brain washed most Americans are these days.
Everyday I read posts of average folks defending outsourcing, illegal immigration, deficit spending, foreign wars for resources, insurance companies that rip people off, banks and mortgage companies who get into trouble and expect help from us taxpayers.....Americans don't think any more, they just repeat the talking points that the media gives them.

Posted by danni at 2008-07-16 08:02 AM

Want some cheese with that whine!

those cheaper products make us all richer

If someone doesn't have a job, it doesn't matter how cheap those products are.

Posted by taxman

Unemployment is around 5%. If you don't have a job you are either incompetent or you don't want one.

plenty of jobs at mcdonalds

plenty of jobs at mcdonalds

Posted by mcduf

Yes there are, my 3 boys all worked there going through school, in fact my on son's fiance is a manager at one and she does very well. I bet if you put forth an effort you can find a job at Wal-Mart too.