10's of thousands await, with far more in reserve.
They've understood the need for target saturation for decades. And very cheap if you dont put nuclear weapons on them.
Quite possibly the largest single missile force on the planet.
Not including their anti-ship capabilities, which should number in the 3000-5000 of exocet class or better. Most all of that targetable to hormuz and the gulf. And portable.

And there are trade and security agreements with both russia and china, I believe mutual defense agreement with russia.

Obama: Let's Hit Iran With Tougher Threats of Stronger Sanctions... But Don't Provoke Them

On Today Show this morning, Matt Bauer asked Obama if he were president this morning, what his immediate response would be to Iran's missile tests.

I think we've got to gather up all the intelligence necessary with the situation, but there's no doubt that we're seeing rising tensions in the area.

To echo Ed, intelligence-gathering? This isn't a rumor of missile tests. U.S. systems detected and tracked at least seven of the missiles. The regime announced it on state-run TV, and showed missiles flying into the air (although perhaps it was file footage).

And it's part of the reason why it's so important for us to have a coherent policy with respect to Iran. It has to combine much tougher threats of economic sanctions with direct diplomacy, opening up channels of communication so that we avoid provocation but we give strong incentives to the Iranians to change their behavior.

I would love to see Obama detail what Iran would have to do before he concluded that he did not want to seek "direct diplomacy" with them.

Lauer points out that at the G8 meeting in Japan, the leaders gathered their have announced a European official to Tehran to discuss an official "incentive package," to induce them for dismantling their uranium enrichment program and Obama says he sees that as a "step in the right direction," and does not see it as reward for bad behavior.

Also note that once again, Obama feels that we ultimately control Iranian behavior; it's simply a matter of offering sufficient incentives to change their behavior. In the interview, he also says, "it's in nobody's interest, including Iran's, I believe, to have a nuclear weapon that could trigger a nuclear arms race in the region."

It seems unthinkable to Obama that the Iranians could have actually determined that having a nuclear weapon is in their self-interest. Much like small town Pennsylvanians, he knows what motivates them better than they know themselves.

Hey thanks to Ronnie Raygun we can just loan Israel a STar Wars missile defense system, they'll be fine.

I always thought the Iranians were just flapping their gums but maybe they really do want to get themselves nuked.

I just hope we stay out of it.

And there are people who think this guy should be president. Wow. "diplomacy", What does he think the Europeans have been doing for the past what 8 or 10 years?

How niave to think that he could talk them out of this. This guy is a disaster.

Iran does need to protect themselves.

Unlike their the US and Israel, Iran does not attack other countries.

So you to not believe that the Hamas missile attacks on Isreal are funded by and use Iranian missiles?

I know Obama can talk but his track record on listening isn't very good, at least not in church.

How niave to think that he could talk them out of this. This guy is a disaster.

Posted by sawdust

Nah, your mentality is a disaster for wanting more Bush. Are your former dollars invested elsewhere ?

Hmmmm, when you have the most powerful nation on Earth threatening to bomb you, when you have another nation, closer by, threatening to bomb or even nuke you....would you be defensive???
Would you try to demonstrate an ability to "hit back"?
Americans seem to think that Iran should accept threats and not respond.
TAke a look at a map of Iran and compare it to Iraq.
Understand that Iran is approx. three times the populatio of Iraq.
Understand that it has a real military capable of inflicting great harm to our forces in Iraq and in Israel.
Maybe diplomacy isn't such a bad idea.
Seemed to work well against an even larger and even better equipped enemy....the USSR.
I guess Truman, Eisenhower, Kennedy, Johnson, Nixon, Carter and Reagan were all just pussies cuz they never attacked the USSR. The pussies just "negotiated" like Dem. pansies.

Hmmmm, when you have the most powerful nation on Earth threatening to bomb you, when you have another nation, closer by, threatening to bomb or even nuke you....would you be defensive???
Would you try to demonstrate an ability to "hit back"?
Americans seem to think that Iran should accept threats and not respond.
TAke a look at a map of Iran and compare it to Iraq.
Understand that Iran is approx. three times the populatio of Iraq.
Understand that it has a real military capable of inflicting great harm to our forces in Iraq and in Israel.
Maybe diplomacy isn't such a bad idea.
Seemed to work well against an even larger and even better equipped enemy....the USSR.
I guess Truman, Eisenhower, Kennedy, Johnson, Nixon, Carter and Reagan were all just pussies cuz they never attacked the USSR. The pussies just "negotiated" like Dem. pansies.

So you to not believe that the Hamas missile attacks on Isreal are funded by and use Iranian missiles?

You're an idiot.

So when any country attacks another with F-16's it's America's fault?

See? You're an idiot and part of the problem.

"So when any country attacks another with F-16's it's America's fault?"

Actually, yes. It is.

Time will tell. Obama most likely will become president. The dems will most likely control congress. Then they can do things their way. In 4 or 5 years we will know whether they have a better idea. My guess is it will be just like Carter. An experiment that goes badly and then there is an adjustment.

Isn't that what is happening with Bush now? He and the Repubs ran things into the ground so now we are giving the Dems a chance. As I said, time will tell.

"So when any country attacks another with F-16's it's America's fault?"

Hamas/Hezbollah aren't countries. Had we sent F-16's to the IRA and those were used to attack London, I'd say the Brits would have had pretty good cause to complain, if not attack us.

How niave to think that he could talk them out of this. This guy is a disaster.

What do you need to talk them out of? They have a missile that can reach a country with nukes. Big fucking deal.

Iran hasn't attacked anyone in 300 years. Bush's justification for installing missle "defense" systems in Poland and Hungary to defend Europe against an attack from Iran is absurd on its face because those countries are outside any real Iranian flight path. Those US systems are one of many Bush treaty violations intended for attacking Russia.

Clearly the United States is attempting to dominate the world by use of military force. Few US citizens recognize this, because they are fed bullshit, which they eagerly consume. But other countries are well aware of this risk. This is how Bush has bred mistrust and helped al Qaida grow.

What would you do if Israel and the United States were pointing their guns at you?

"Understand that it has a real military capable of inflicting great harm to our forces in Iraq and in Israel."

Posted by danni

Uh, no.

Iran has a modest standing army, some mechanized units, some older tank units. They do not have much air force and certainly not one that can go up against the Israelis and definitely not the US. A navy that consists mainly of patrol boats. Any movement of ground forces to Iraq or Israel will have to pass over a couple of rather formidable mountain ranges in their own country. They have some cruise missiles, possibly even a modified version of the Russian Moskit (NATO Sunburn) for surface launch operations. And of course, they are working the medium range ballistic missiles, but with no nuke capability (yet).

No, no, the Iranis are not much of a threat. They only have the capability to go toe to toe with some foe in their league, like Iraq. The best they can probably do is lob a few missiles here and there, and do some harassment operations across the Iran/Iraq border. They could probably take out some surface ships in the straits, but then they would be cutting their own throat in the process.

Understand that it has a real military capable of inflicting great harm to our forces in Iraq and in Israel. Maybe diplomacy isn't such a bad idea.
Seemed to work well against an even larger and even better equipped enemy....the USSR.
I guess Truman, Eisenhower, Kennedy, Johnson, Nixon, Carter and Reagan were all just pussies cuz they never attacked the USSR. The pussies just "negotiated" like Dem. pansies.

Posted by danni at 2008-07-09 01:53 PM

This is the same army who lost hundreds of thousands of soldiers in the Iran-Iraq conflict? Who couldn't defeat a country we went through in days? You are worried about this ragged military? Looks like you have as little a clue as the Boy Wonder.

Even if Iran is getting ready to attack, which I doubt seriously they are, but still....even if they were....how does that become America's problem???
Why are we responsible for policing the world???
I think we need to reevaluate military committments all over the world. We need to repair American infrastructure, improve American health care, education systems, etc. It is time for the world to start paying for their own defense we've done our share.

How niave to think that he could talk them out of this. This guy is a disaster.

Posted by sawdust

C'mon, Dubya did his bestest with LilKim, Sawdust. There are many other reasons to consider hima disaster, though, starting with his handing Iraq over to Iran.

Israel does some training, Iran fires a couple of missiles and Congress will borrow a few billion more from China for our favorite welfare case and the price of Iran's oil goes up a couple of bucks.

"Who couldn't defeat a country we went through in days?"

Well, at least one American is ready to invade another country. Not surprisingly, it's Crispee.

BRING IT ON!!!! Right Crispee???

It would be interesting to see if Iraq chooses to stay neutral in any US-Iran conflict and/or allows us to use bases in Iraq for operations against Iran.

Posted by katieberry

given the unanimous support Iraq gave to hezbollah when they were fighting Israel, I think we all know the answer. The fact that Iraq's first international treaty was with Iran and promised not to let anyone attack Iran from its soil is another clue.

"Clandestine operations against Iran are not new," Hersh writes, in a report that will appear in the July 7 and 14 issue of the New Yorker. "But the scale and the scope of the operations ... have now been significantly expanded."

Well if Seymour fucking Hersh writes it is must be true? He can't point out anything when questioned. He can't provide any evidence other than what he has concluded. He has been writing about an attack for years and somehow he is still given print space about Iran?

Yeah, cuz the righty propaganda rags and righty talkers are always full of facts. Get a clue. Hersh's reporting has been as accurate, if not more so, than all the right wing blithering so many of you lap up on a daily basis.

He can't provide any evidence other than what he has concluded.

That was a good enough reason for you to crack out the pom poms for war in Iraq, so what's the problem?

Iran only attacks other religions.
Not substantially better than attacking other nations.
Gosh, 4000+ years of history and they still have not learned to make nice.

"He can't provide any evidence other than what he has concluded."

Our intelligence agencies can't seem to find evidence of weaponization of nuclear material but you and the neocons want to start another fucking war that we can't afford.....

What's better than one unnecessary war we can't afford....two uneccesarry wars we can't afford.

"Who couldn't defeat a country we went through in days?"

So there really was a victory parade back in 2003? Wow. I guess all those KIAs since then were actually chocolate ODs.

Study some history-Iran fought a well armed (thanks to Reagan and Thatcher)Iraq, which used missiles and WMD against it. They repulsed Iraq's attack (again, according to the Fighty Rightys Iran actually started the war, not their then idol Saddam).
Hard to compare it with 2003's defanged Iraq. better comparison was Gulf1.

Yeah, cuz the righty propaganda rags and righty talkers are always full of facts. Get a clue. Hersh's reporting has been as accurate, if not more so, than all the right wing blithering so many of you lap up on a daily basis.

Posted by evilpolock at 2008-07-09 02:31 PM

Get a clue? You defend some clown who has written articles claiming Bush is going to attack Iran since 2004? That is your accuracy reporting? Who is lapping what here?

Hard to compare it with 2003's defanged Iraq. better comparison was Gulf1.

Posted by northguy3 at 2008-07-09 02:56 PM

Gulf 1? Isn't that the war where the so called elite army of Iraq surrendered without shots being fired? Hell they succumbed to loud music? This was the army Iran couldn't defeat? You clowns are worried about what Iran can do to us in a conventional war?

Get a clue? You defend some clown who has written articles claiming Bush is going to attack Iran since 2004? That is your accuracy reporting? Who is lapping what here?

Mujahedeen-e-Khalq ring a bell? Of course not...

Our intelligence agencies can't seem to find evidence of weaponization of nuclear material but you and the neocons want to start another fucking war that we can't afford.....

What's better than one unnecessary war we can't afford....two uneccesarry wars we can't afford.

Posted by danni at 2008-07-09 02:54 PM

I would think strategic strikes by the Air Force and Navy can be done rather cheaply. What can Iran do? We own the seas and the skies. Isolate the country, take over the shipping lanes, prevent anything from coming in and wait it out. If the people don't revolt and overthrow their government, then they deserve their fate.

"You clowns are worried about what Iran can do to us in a conventional war?"

I swear I remember someone saying nearly the same thing before the Iraq invasion. But hey, I know, if we bomb Iran the oil will pay for the bombs. It's be over in six months max. Iranians will thank our troops with chocolates.

"You clowns are worried about what Iran can do to us in a conventional war?"

I swear I remember someone saying nearly the same thing before the Iraq invasion.

How long did it take to defeat and disarm the government of Iraq in the conventional war?

"How long did it take to defeat and disarm the government of Iraq in the conventional war?

Posted by crispee_oc"

Problem was, we forgot to do the "disarm" part and let their military go home with their guns. Couldn't be bothered with securing those ammo dumps, either.

Problem was, we forgot to do the "disarm" part and let their military go home with their guns. Couldn't be bothered with securing those ammo dumps, either.

Posted by SanAntonioRogue at 2008-07-09 03:25 PM

Which has zero to do with the post about conventional war with Iran.

Hey, you're the one citing Iraq as a precedent.

Hey, you're the one citing Iraq as a precedent.

Posted by SanAntonioRogue at 2008-07-09 03:31 PM

Maybe you can tell me the last conventional war we fought? Instead of echoing danni and the other loons about the post invasion and the UNCONVENTIONAL tactics.

"What can Iran do? We own the seas and the skies. Isolate the country, take over the shipping lanes, prevent anything from coming in and wait it out."

Posted by crispee_oc

Any strike on Iran will spike world oil prices, just as a start. Ready for that?

Are you ready to bump up against an irritated Russia?

Japan, China, and India, just to mention a few, will be most displeased when a large source of crude is cut off.

There are many methods with which to strike your enemy.

The Afghanis caused havoc with the Soviets using Stingers and RPGs.

The Iraqis are causing havoc with the Americans using IEDs.

Who knows what cells are waiting in the US to strike and cause havoc and chaos. It would be pathetically easy. Water supplies, power grids, rail lines, all open and vulnerable.

"So when any country attacks another with F-16's it's America's fault?"
Actually, yes. It is.
Posted by Jomama

What utter nonsense!
So when a person stabs another with a knife, is it the baseball bat makers fault?

Personal responsibility/accountability, as well as a country being responsible for attacking another.

Let's not underestimate what a couple of strategically sunk ships in the Strait of Hormuz would do, as well.

Any strike on Iran will spike world oil prices, just as a start. Ready for that?

Are you ready to bump up against an irritated Russia?

Japan, China, and India, just to mention a few, will be most displeased when a large source of crude is cut off.

Seems to me if you can't beat them, join them. Maybe they should speak about this the next time they are at the UN. Had they not looked the other way for so many years in regards to Saddam...

"Instead of echoing danni and the other loons about the post invasion and the UNCONVENTIONAL tactics."

So we shouldn't be concerned about the UNCONVENTIONAL warfare we would certainly face????
What a complete idiot Crispee.
I have to say thay you and George Bush have a lot in commong. Basicly both of you are willing to go to war without even the barest knowledge of the consequences or the expense of such an attack.

BTW.. The Boy Wonder said he won't answer a hypothetical situation this morning when asked what he would do if the misssiles were launched at Israel. He did claim we have exported more to Iran under the Bush administration than in previous years. Saying Bush was sending mixed signals? Nothing to do with the missile situation. Just your typical sleazy politician pointing his fucking finger in the wind.

Crispee,
All this gay chest thumping about how we own the planet is all good and well if you're a neocon retard but the reality is...FACT...any sort of confrontation with Iran will spike oil prices to near $10/gallon. You want some of that, just to make sure Israel can save money on doing their own defense?

Not to mention this sort of thing just may send us even closer to a true armageddon...Georgies wet dream...courtesy of Russia, China and everyone else in the middle east.

"Just your typical sleazy politician pointing his fucking finger in the wind."

Yeah, instead he should have done like Dumbya and yelled "bring it on!"

So we shouldn't be concerned about the UNCONVENTIONAL warfare we would certainly face????
What a complete idiot Crispee.

Yeah dumbshit we should follow the same path as the post invasion Iraq. Since you lack of any understanding in regards to the military or operations, I will explain it again. We own the seas and the skies. Nothing comes in or out. We do not need ground forces to strike you ignorant Obama lover you. BTW... I can see why you like him. He knows just a bit more than you about our strength and capabilities.

"What utter nonsense!
So when a person stabs another with a knife, is it the baseball bat makers fault?

Personal responsibility/accountability, as well as a country being responsible for attacking another."

In order for you example to make any sense it would have to go down like this: Person A tells anyone who will listen to him that he plans to stab Person B as soon as he gets a knife. Then I give him a knife knowing full well what it will be used for. Person B gets stabbed by Person A.

Who is most at fault? Person A. Who is also at fault? Me, because I gave the guy a knife knowing full well what the consequences of my actions would be. We are each responsible for our own actions.

When you give rockets to Hamas, you know they will be used on Israel. It isn't like selling an F-16 to some NATO country. It is giving weapons to someone who has stated their intent to use them on a specific target. Israel has a right to attack anyone who is supplying Hamas.

I just want us to stay out of it as it isn't our business.

Evil,
Have you forgotten who has the most powerful military in the world? I bet there was a time when you were proud of that. As opposed to being afraid of what they can do to us.

"He knows just a bit more than you about our strength and capabilities."

Probably why he was against the Iraq invasion.
He understood that it's easy to start a war, it's much harder to finish one. It's also very expensive and quite simply the US can't afford it. Hey, maybe China will loan us enough for another war, one which will endanger their oil supply, yeah, I'm sure they will oblige.

Israel has a right to attack anyone who is supplying Hamas

Does that mean enemies of those countries we supply have the right to attack America?

Crispee,
Well, actually, I served in the military you refer to.
You didn't reply to my other post...any new wars/attacks of any scale/etc, in that part of the world will cause gas to skyrocket.
Hell, if some idiot says he saw an Iranian rowboat 10 miles from an oil tanker, the price goes up $10/barrel overnight.
How well do you think this economy will do with that kinda hit?
Considering the fact that Israel needs no help from anyone to bomb Iran into the 17th century, why must we get involved?

Does that mean enemies of those countries we supply have the right to attack America?

Posted by Danforth at 2008-07-09 04:25 PM | Reply

Hamas is not a country, it's a terrorist group.
If we supply terrorists then the country those terrorists are attacking have every right to attack America. They'll get the shit knocked out of them, but they have the right.

"If we supply terrorists then the country those terrorists are attacking have every right to attack America."

Then God help us if anyone we supply hits China in, say 25 years.

Then they could invoke the Bush doctrine: if a country is believed to have WMDs, and another, more powerful country believes it may someday be attacked by those WMDs, it's okay to bomb the country, invade, and topple the government.

The early morning launch at a remote desert site sent oil prices climbing.

how much more proof do you need that it is NOT all about supply and demand?

"Does that mean enemies of those countries we supply have the right to attack America?"

I don't know how you missed this but Hamas is not a country. It is a terrorist group with the stated goal of destroying Israel.

So if there were a terror group out there that has the stated goal of attacking Germany and we gave that terror group weapons, then yes I'd say Germany has reason to attack us. I'd want them to get their asses kicked but I wouldn't say they didn't have reason.

"Then they could invoke the Bush doctrine: if a country is believed to have WMDs, and another, more powerful country believes it may someday be attacked by those WMDs, it's okay to bomb the country, invade, and topple the government."

And then when some farmer from Missouri plants a roadside IED to blow up a Chinese APC, he will be hailed as a hero.

Future president Obama aside this is not a good development.

Crispee,
Well, actually, I served in the military you refer to.
You didn't reply to my other post...any new wars/attacks of any scale/etc, in that part of the world will cause gas to skyrocket.

I chose that line with that knowledge in mind. I notice you didn't refute it as well. As for the repercussions if we decide to bomb and blockade Iran... Higher gas prices is not one of my concerns. We as a country would fare better than any other industrialized nation. Not to mention these pacts signed as retalitaion against Bush and the USA. It could force the hardliners in Iran to be removed as well. Does anyone really think Iran would only attack Israel if allowed?

I hope Iran bombs the shit out of Israel.

Result:

1. A quick response from Israel that would totally obliterate Iran.

2. Gas prices skyrocket for long enough for us to start drilling, building more refineries, building Nuclear reactors, etc. etc.

3. Gas prices go down to the $100.00 (or less) per barrel range.

4. All is good.

You are on crack.

"...Hamas is not a country."

Posted by sully

Neither is Al Queda, but that didn't stop the US from kicking the crap out of Afghanistan and Iraq.

Neither is Al Queda, but that didn't stop the US from kicking the crap out of Afghanistan and Iraq.

Posted by ZOT at 2008-07-09 06:46 PM

Exactly what crap have we've been kicking?
And if we have isn't it time to bring the troops home?

And we didn't shoot these missles down because?

Isn't that an act of war holding weapons of mass destruction.

Hey thanks to Ronnie Raygun we can just loan Israel a STar Wars missile defense system, they'll be fine.

Posted by danni at 2008-07-09 01:

uh sure....and where will we get this system that doesnt exists?

and it doesnt matter to you anyway that the THREAT of this was a major reason for the end of the soviet union?

AND this morning on today..barrywayne shows us his complete ignorance of whats been happening in and ABOUT iraq. he talks of using our allies and we have been DOING that for some time. and what happened with THAT??? rockets are fired that could reach israel..........so much for leaving anything to europeans.

one of his answers to the world's problems.

LETS ALL LEARN SPANISH................

YIPPEEE..........

muy bueno
and hasta laredo

I'm wondering what Russia would do if there was an attack on Iran by Israel and the US Military? Russia could blow Israel off the map and then maybe the U.S. would call a truce because although Israel is expendable,American cities,especially Washington,aren't!

This is seriously stupid. Iran has never and probably never will strike first at any of its neighbors. Amendedpajamas is just blowing smoke. He knows the Israelis are impotent stooges and that the vast majority of Americans are not brain dead bible thumpers and would crucify the president if he started another unwarranted war.

Iran's support of Hammas is fucked-up, but certainly no worse than the US support of the terrorists (ahem...freedom fighters) we have supported over the past 100 years in the name of Corporate Imperialism. (Remember who gave all those Stinger missles to the Afgan terrorists...ahem.freedom fighters..I mean terrorists...back in the 1980's?

There is no Israeli threat to Iran other that of the nuclear blackmail they hold over the US. They know that they would never recover from the political, moral and physical fallout if they ever started a war and dared to use one of their US TAXPAYER supplied nukes. Not a jew in the entire world would be safe from some very nasty reprisals if they did. Remember, the Moslem's outnumber them 30 to 1 and bigots in general by about 1000 to 1. Even a lot of the Bubbas down in Mississippi and Alabama would love any reason to start burning Temples and kicking jew-ass. And the KKKlowns would enjoy a huge membership surge.

That is the real reason Israel is trying to get the US to do their dirty work.

Finally Israel will learn some humility and respect.

This isn't new and quite frankly it is so shocking how many stupid afraid Americans there are, even on this thread.

Get the material and almost any high school educated could make a rocket go that far.

"So you to not believe that the Hamas missile attacks on Isreal are funded by and use Iranian missiles?"

Yep...just like Israeli missile attacks on Hamas are funded by the US. Sort of a pleasing symmetry don't you think?

You first, Moneywar.
Once you get past black powder explosives become dangerous to manufacture. Some of the exotic compounds are lethal to handle.
Just fueling the vehicle would be incredibly dangerous. Thus the reason you hear of these clandestine explosives and rockets builders going up.
Isreal is a terrorist state, born in the corruption of religious demand, a racial and religious seperation.
A jewish state is a religious entity, and recognition of its existance as a state is a crime under the constitution.
This makes policy with them law of respect. Of a religious entity. Israel, in name, or any other fact, does not exist absent the religion of judaism.
Funny thing that the only two religious states on the planet belong to jews and christians. That we have laws respecting and protecting both are criminal. And we gave nuclear weapons to one.
To cap it all off, we allow them to subvert our constitution by allowing these religous entities to terrorize their fellow citizens with religous persecution, rejection from inclusion, and a host of other crimes.
All in the name of religion.
Iran will not attack first, but they will defend themselves. It has been 3 decades since the iran-iraq war, and the Iranians chose a path of defense that was cheaper than either a navy or an air force.
Rockets and missiles, and contrary to popular beleif, are quite effective even without sophisticated guidance systems. Will actually be interesting to see if those new russian radars are as good as they say. If they are, the Iranians will be able to prove they were attacked first, but more importantly, it will allow them to launch before being hit too hard. Their best strategic targets would be the gulf oil fields, Hormuz, then Isreal.

" Israel has a right to attack anyone who is supplying Hamas."

It then follows from symmetry that Hamas has the right to attack anybody who is supplying Israel.

"It then follows from symmetry that Hamas has the right to attack anybody who is supplying Israel."

I would think that terror groups like Hamas have no right to exist in the first place but if you view terror groups as being legitimate entities I guess you could say that.

They're a lead weight around the neck of the Palestinian people. They ensure the peace process will never go anywhere and they will slaughter their own people if they have to in order to make sure of that. I don't know why anyone who claims to support the Palestinian cause would sympathize with them.

Sully,
That kind of sound logic has no place here. It's simply "Iran and Hamas right", "Israel and USA wrong".

The cheerleading for our potential foes by our own citizens isn't shocking to anyone that has read the retort for more than a day.

Why do people keep skipping over the fact Hamas is a terror group and not a country? There has to be a reason, but what...

"I would think that terror groups like Hamas have no right to exist in the first place...."

And other people take a different position. As it stands, all you are doing is engaging in a pissing contest.

Be my guest.

Those other people are known as terrorists and terrorist sympathizers.

What is your position Tom? Does Hamas have a right to exist?

Uh oh ~ a voice of reason has entered the DR.

Welcome back Tom.

Everybody else run for the hills.

LOL

"Why do people keep skipping over the fact Hamas is a terror group and not a country? There has to be a reason, but what..."

Intellectual dishonesty. They don't want to explore the implications of assigning terror groups the same rights as internationallly recognized governments so they pretend that isn't what they are condoning. For example, if Hamas is as legitimate an entity as say, France, then isn't the KKK as well?

"As it stands, all you are doing is engaging in a pissing contest.

Be my guest."

Huh? I voiced an opinion. Someone asked me a question about it and I answered it. I don't think you know how to use the metaphor "pissing contest" correctly.

"What is your position Tom? Does Hamas have a right to exist?"

Right to exist? Many people around the world think they do, me included. This isn't the case in the US of course where both parties rail against the Palestinians on a daily basis. The mere fact that the even the suggestion of being even-handed causes an uproar in the US demonstrates how far of the rails they have run.

I'm glad you support a terror group Tom. How reasonable of you.

twinpac,
You sure can pick em.

"I don't think you know how to use the metaphor "pissing contest" correctly."

I don't think you should exist (just an opinion). There. I have just demonstrated that I can piss as least as far as you.

"I'm glad you support a terror group Tom. How reasonable of you."

You would deny a people the right to defend themselves. How reasonble of you. (I think that went at least as far as your stream of piss).

Israel is very well equipped with missiles that can reach any part of Iran with pin point accuracy. Iran can launch a free flying collection of plumbing that with good fortune will hit the earth somewhere in the direction intended.

If Iran thinks Israel is shaking in fear, they are typical Shia Muslims. This means bu fuck nuts.

"Many people around the world think they do, me included. This isn't the case in the US of course where both parties rail against the Palestinians on a daily basis. The mere fact that the even the suggestion of being even-handed causes an uproar in the US demonstrates how far of the rails they have run."

First of all Hamas and the Palestinians are not the same thing. That you seem to equate the two doesn't speak well to your understanding of the subject. Hamas is a subset of Palestinians dedicated to the destruction of Israel and to forward that agenda they disrupt the peace process at every opportunity. They have and will use violence against Palestians who detract from their efforts.

I personally don't understand or condone our unconditional support of Israel but that is another issue. Decades of using tactics like those of Hamas have brought nothing but more and more misery to Palestinians. You would think both they and their so-called supporters would have learned and adapted by now. People who support Hamas are expecting new results from a strategy that has proven to fail over and over. Not too bright. Being anti-Hamas is not an anti-Palestinian position.

"I don't think you should exist (just an opinion). There. I have just demonstrated that I can piss as least as far as you."

Your desperate attempts to make your "pissing contest" comment make any sense in the context of this discussion aren't working.

since it is NEVER mentioned from the press or the leftists, lets be reminded that DAILY..........as in EACH AND EVERY DAY..there are rockets landing somewhere in israel coming from hamas...and I bet most if not all say ,..made in tehran on them..
but lets not even THINK about the violence coming from hamas because DONT FORGET.
THEY SUPPORT BARAK OBAMA IN OUR PRESIDENTIAL RACE..............

as in EACH AND EVERY DAY..there are rockets landing somewhere in israel coming from hamas...

They go both ways BLT. I bet many of the rockets going the other way say made in the USA. But hey, at least they're keeping 'murycans working, right?

Are those rockets landing in "Hamas" or are they landing in a place where the Government is trying, but can't control Hamas?

You're the retard, but keep working on it. You should quit posting until you figure it out, so you're not distracted.

"I bet many of the rockets going the other way say made in the USA."

The difference being that the missiles fired by Israel are targetting the rocket sites. The goal is to stop further rocket attacks. Hamas' goal is just to kill people at random and to derail the peace process. But why pretend the who and why matters in situations like this, right?

Anyone who looks at the situation objectively would see that Hamas has been screwing over the Palestinians for decades.
"Driving them into the sea" is a pipe dream. Palestinians will continue to suffer for this delusion as long as Hamas is around.

Hamas' goal is just to kill people at random and to derail the peace process.

I would agree with most of what you said Sully. With an exception that there are those on both sides of that particular conflict, that are not interested in resolution of the differences for several reasons. Power, control, territory, religious and political ideology, and greed are all in play from several sides.

"With an exception that there are those on both sides of that particular conflict, that are not interested in resolution of the differences for several reasons."

I agree with that. And the Israelis who want to continue the conflict while slowly claiming more of the West Bank need Hamas to justify their position.

There are many things about Israel I find objectionable: Settlements, taking our money, spying on us, attacking the USS Liberty and then lying about it for 30 years, the whole mixture of church and state and the 2nd class citizenship status of non-jews, etc.

I just don't have a problem with them blowing up people who randomly fire rockets into their towns. I don't take a "one side is always wrong" position. That's lazy and thoughtless.

And Israeli expansion demonstrates the Israel is dedicated to the destruction of the Palestinians.

Why is it that you people never seem to have an original thought?

Even if Iran is getting ready to attack, which I doubt seriously they are, but still....even if they were....how does that become America's problem???
Why are we responsible for policing the world???
I think we need to reevaluate military commitments all over the world. We need to repair American infrastructure, improve American health care, education systems, etc. It is time for the world to start paying for their own defense we've done our share.

Posted by danni

My apologies to Tom W for not having an original thought, but I feel this one is well written and deserving of note.

The only thing danni left out is the fact that "the people" and the people who run the US have very different agendas nowadays. Perhaps it's time we take the average Joes running for office a little more seriously instead of just writing them off and electing more politicians.

since it is NEVER mentioned from the press or the leftists, lets be reminded that DAILY..........as in EACH AND EVERY DAY..there are rockets landing somewhere in israel coming from hamas...

Yes, BLT, I am aware of that, as a neighbor of mine displays that information in his yard, together with a mock-up of the kind of missile you are talking about. Not to condone violent acts of Hamas in any way, but those things are more like fireworks than the ones Israel retaliates with.

"Why is it that you people never seem to have an original thought?"

Why is it that people who ask questions like this rarely exhibit original thinking themselves?

Sully,

What options do poor people have other than to resort to terrorist tactics when immense militay powers marginalize or kill them?

This is what we did to the British, who complained we didn't fight fair.

"What options do poor people have other than to resort to terrorist tactics when immense militay powers marginalize or kill them?"

What they've doing - firing rockets randomly, blowing up themselves for a shot at killing a dozen or so civilians or the odd soldier or two, etc - has not worked. Their situation just gets worse and worse. All these people who encourage them to fight on do very little to support them. Doing nothing would be better than continuing actions that make things worse.

What I would suggest they do is swear off violence altogether. Worked for India. Then Israel has no way of justifying the prisoner status and harsh treatment of Palestinians. The comparisons to old South African apartheid would be obvious. Palestinians could even ask for Israeli citizenship knowing that it would have the opposite effect. Israel would want to cut ties with Paelestinians as quickly as possible in order to avoid losing a Jewish majority. This would incent them towards helping the Palestinians set up their own state.

They are never going to get everything they've been demanding but this would improve their quality of life tremendously. And if they want to go to war in a few decades, they would have some time to establish and infastructutre and a military first. I'm not even saying they have to give up the fight. They just have to stop being so stupid about it.

"This is what we did to the British, who complained we didn't fight fair."

But the colonists had a chance of winning. If the Revolution would have been one losing battle after another with harsher and harsher consequences for colonists, do you think it would have lasted 40 years? It wouldn't have lasted 5. And the American colonists attacked military targets only so the tactics aren't very simliar. The Palestinians use Ireland as an example of a country that fought off an oppressive occupation. But the early IRA was a legitimate resistance movement that attacked military targets. They model themselves after the later day car-bombing terrorist IRA, who never accomplished shit.

No one except the religious zealots who are waiting for Armeggedon care a rat's ass about Israel.

Someday soon, religion will disappear. Hopefully before it kills the Human Race.

Christian hate filled scum
Jewish Nazis
Islamic terrorist

No difference in these 3 groups.