Drudge Retort: Red Meat for Yellow Dogs

DURING THE 2004 ELECTION, Democrats and their allies on the activist Left were adamant that a candidates military record was strictly off-limits to criticism. John Kerry was a war hero, and to suggest different was, as columnist David Ignatius averred, defamation. It turns out these partisans meant to exempt themselves from the rule.

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From the article:

As an example, observe the nascent smear campaign against John McCains military service. This past weekend, retired general and declared Barack Obama backer Wesley Clark went on CBSs Face the Nation, where he proceeded to dismiss the import of McCains military background in the current race. I dont think getting in a fighter plane and getting shot down is a qualification to become president,-- Clark sniffed. The real issue, according to Clark, was that McCain was untested and untried.--


McCains campaign was quick to condemn Clarks comments. Secretly, though, it must have been pleased. With his surrogates blasting away at McCains war record, Obama was left exposed on several flanks. If McCain, with his 22-year career in the Navy and his 26-years in Congress, is untested and untried,-- what then is one to make of Obama, whose single term in the senate is most notable for its pious adherence to liberal orthodoxy? Meanwhile, to discount McCains distinguished military career his honors include the Silver Star, the Bronze Star, the Legion of Merit, the Purple Heart, and the Distinguished Flying Cross as nothing more than getting into a fighter plane and getting shut down-- is to traffic in precisely the kind of sleazy politics that Obama, once upon a time, professed to reject. Of all the fights one could pick with McCain, the battle over his war service surely is the most ill-advised. Recognizing the fact, Obama later rejected Clarks statement through a spokesman.


This needs a reprint:

If McCain, with his 22-year career in the Navy and his 26-years in Congress, is untested and untried,-- what then is one to make of Obama, whose single term in the senate is most notable for its pious adherence to liberal orthodoxy


I didn't think the Dems would be stupid enough to go after McCain's service, or his lack of experience.

I guess I should never underestimate the Dems.

Smearing McCain


YEAH!

So youre under the impression that there are still some untouched smears-- of McCain that Bushs didnt already exploit in 2000?

I didn't think the Dems would be stupid enough to go after McCain's service, or his lack of experience.

McCain's service?

23 Missions.
20 hours air combat.
28 medals.
5 Dead planes.
5 years as a POW.

McCain's service is over-inflated and has absolutely no bearing on his ability to be POTUS and CiC.

It does however display his obvious inability to even understand wot went wrong in Vietnam which might help to explain his "100 years in Iraq" nonsense.

His experience?

Two things here.

First, both McCain and Obama have exactly the same amount of experience at being POTUS.

ie. None.

Second, if you equate experience with political longevity then McCain has more of it than Obama but that observation itse;f brings into play the issue of mental and physical wherewithall in which McCain is lacking and which Obama excels in.

ie. McCain's older than dirt and thus too age enfeebled to be a competent leader.

He's older than Ray-gun the braindead zombie POTUS was, when he first ran, fer fooks sake.

Not smears Jeff.

Truths.

Be Well.

/If you wanna see smears in action look at the actions of the right vis a vis Obama. You kids only have smears to attack Obama with cos yer political arguments are shit.

Jeffj,

I dont think getting in a fighter plane and getting shot down is a qualification to become president,--

Exactly what is wrong/incorrect/inappropriate about this statement?

McCane is an old pussy who didn't have the nuts to tell the VietCong to go to Hell. Manchurian Candidate, folks. He's a proven weakling.

EP,
Show me who said it was a qualification. Wesley was simply trying to build a strawman.

101,
I didn't say anyone said it was a qualification. Aren't those Clarks words above? If not, then I am mistaken. If so, what is causing the uproar? All I'm saying is dispute the statement on context, if indeed those are his words.
Does being a POW somehow better prepare you for POTUS? After all, isn't his POW status 99% of his military resume...as far as most of the country is concerned? How many actually know who or what he commanded?

EP,
You are correct by saying Clark used those words. My point is why? Who said that it did make him qualified? Clark was building a strawman.
Clark was trying to be dismissive of McCains service. Seeing as though many know he was shot down and few know he went on to command a large squadron.

Being a POW doesn't qualify him for anything other than how to handle adversity. His command experience, his pressure under combat conditions, and his understanding of the military do qualify him to be POTUS.

Community Organizer and frosh Senator...not so much.

Ok, you guys want to talk about it here too:

His military Service started out by graduating in the bottom 1.5% of his class. Had his family not been career Admirals, one can surmise that he would have flunked out of the Academy as he had such low marks.

NOT IMPRESSIVE AT ALL!!

Had his family not been career Admirals, John would have never been permitted into Flight School. Finishing that low at the Academy regulates any other graduate to a desk job filling papers. Over the next 6 years, John McCain lost 4 Military Aircraft.

NOT IMPRESSIVE AT ALL!!

Within 20 hours of combat time in Vietnam, John McCain was shot down, something he was supposedly trained to avoid. (His 5th Aircraft lost).

NOT IMPRESSIVE AT ALL!!

As a captured prisoner, John McCain is quoted by himself as saying;

"I'll give you military information if you will take me to the hospital."

Now let's stop and review the Military Code of Conduct. Article 3:

"If I am captured I will continue to resist by all means available. I will make every effort to escape and to aid others to escape. I will accept neither parole nor special favors from the enemy. "

John McCain violated the Code of Conduct by exchanging Military information for medical treatment.

Violating this Code of Conduct is punishable by death.

Now, if you or John McCain wants to talk about his Military career, then lets discuss it in full.

McCains Military career is traitorous at worst and was bestowed to him at best.

John was a shitty scholar, shitty flight student, and shitty warrior. He was basically a failure at everything he did in the military.

I am all for talking about the truth of the matter.

"Being a POW doesn't qualify him for anything other than how to handle adversity. His command experience, his pressure under combat conditions, and his understanding of the military do qualify him to be POTUS."


He was captured. Did he try to escape? Did he put up a fight to avoid capture or did he surrender?

Pressure under combat conditions. Did he surrender?
Handle adversity - did he try to escape?

The Jews in concentration camps have equal experience. Some were braver and tried to escape. Some fought back instead of being taken. That showed courage.

If you raise his POW status to measure his worth - then you can measure his cowardice on the same stick.

The right lost the right to pitch a bitch when they sat Idoly by while John Kerry was Swiftboated with lies. Purple Bandaids anyone?? So no bitching JeffJ.

Larry Mohr

The right lost the right to pitch a bitch when they sat Idoly by while John Kerry was Swiftboated with lies. Purple Bandaids anyone?? So no bitching JeffJ.

Posted by LarryMohr

Are you suggesting that two wrongs make a right?

mccain.senate.gov

Show me who said it was a qualification. Wesley was simply trying to build a strawman.

Posted by 101Chairborne at 2008-07-01 02:02 PM |

First thing listed on McCain's bio - his military career.

The first thing most websites supporting McCain list is his military career.

So, if his military career is a building block for his presidency, what significance should he give to a NIE- -the one he didn't read about Iraq?

He was captured. Did he try to escape? Did he put up a fight to avoid capture or did he surrender?

Pressure under combat conditions. Did he surrender?
Handle adversity - did he try to escape?

The Jews in concentration camps have equal experience. Some were braver and tried to escape. Some fought back instead of being taken. That showed courage.

If you raise his POW status to measure his worth - then you can measure his cowardice on the same stick.

Posted by Petrous at 2008-07-01 02:45 PM | Repl

He was pulled directly from the lake he langed in. He was bayonetted and had his shoulder crushed along wiht the 3 broken bones from the ejection. When was he going to attempt to escape?

Adversity in combat. Split second decision making in combat.

Why would you ask if he surrendered when he was obviously shot down.

Show me a jew from a concentration camp that had the same level of military and Senate experience as McCain and I'll show you somebody with more experience than Obama. Deal?

You example of measuring cowardice via his POW time is like calling Mike Tyson a pussy because he got punched in a fight.

So I'll be waiting for your rebuttal.

"if his military career is a building block for his presidency, what significance should he give to a NIE- -the one he didn't read about Iraq?"

Yikes!

During his response, what's the over/under on blinking?

No Hagbard Celine but how can I condemn someone for Drinking and Driving if I have done so in the past??

Larry

First thing listed on McCain's bio - his military career.

The first thing most websites supporting McCain list is his military career.

So, if his military career is a building block for his presidency, what significance should he give to a NIE- -the one he didn't read about Iraq?

Posted by Petrous at 2008-07-01 02:55 PM | Reply

You are an idiot.

I asked EP who said getting shot down was what qualified him to be president. Getting shot down doesn't qualify him to be President. As has been mentioned numerous times his military career and his Senate career are what qualifies him.

He did't just climb in a plane, get shot down, then get captured and released and then became a civilian.
He Commanded a very large squadron. Do you understand that?

John McCain has an unusual endorsement from the Vietnamese jailer who says he held him captive for about five years as a POW and now considers him a friend.

"If I were an American voter, I would vote for Mr. John McCain," Tran Trong Duyet said Friday, sitting in his living room in the northern city of Haiphong, surrounded by black-and-white photos of a much younger version of himself and former Vietnam War prisoners.


At the same time, he denies prisoners of war were tortured. Despite detailed POW accounts and physical wounds, Duyet claims the presumed Republican presidential nominee made up beatings and solitary confinement in an attempt to win votes.

McCain has the idiots like Chair fooled, that's for sure.


Who else is lapping up the McCain Kool-aid?

You can choose to believe his gook captor and torturer and I'll believe American Pilots and other captured service members.
By any objective measure you'd be on the short end of the stick.

Shit, forgot to highlight this part:

from the Vietnamese jailer who says he held him captive for about five years as a POW and now considers him a friend.

Friends with the enemy!!!! That's what the GOOKS are saying anyway.

No Hagbard Celine but how can I condemn someone for Drinking and Driving if I have done so in the past??

Posted by LarryMohr

I don't know, and speaking directly to your analogy only, because you've learned your lesson and know its wrong?

When you use my first and last name like that I feel like I'm being scolded by my mom, lol.

Show me a jew from a concentration camp that had the same level of military and Senate experience as McCain and I'll show you somebody with more experience than Obama. Deal?


Some jew with NO experience in military or Senate died trying to escape. Show me where McCain tried to escape and I'll agree his military experience shows his courage is greater than Obama's. Deal?

" Duyet claims the presumed Republican presidential nominee made up beatings "

Who the fuck cares? Beatings or no, McCain was representing me for 5+ years as a Vietnamese POW, and I'll believe him over his captors every time.

But this begs the larger question: what are we doing giving any weight at all what others think? Hamas "endorsed" Obama? BFD. The same folks who bitch about that would look the other way if Osama bin Laden showed up on Al-Jazeera holding a copy of today's WSJ and endorsed McCain.

Show me a jew from a concentration camp that had the same level of military and Senate experience as McCain and I'll show you somebody with more experience than Obama. Deal?

Now why would the Zionists allow their best of breeds to be sent to camps?

Silly you......They had to keep those men for the State they were in the middle of establishing.

They were conniving bastards, but they weren't dumb.

Petrous,
Comparing the courage of a POW, combat fighter pilot, and career military man to some neophyte senator is hilarious and completely embarrassing for you.

Honestly, you should be pretty embarrassed.

"As has been mentioned numerous times his military career and his Senate career are what qualifies him."

His military career - how much of the time as a prisoner?

His Senate career - Did he read the NIE? When we are talking about the most serious of decisions of the President will make, do we want someone who doesn't read the reports? Isn't that something his incredible military experience and commanding experience would dictate he should do?

Split second decision or did he have time to think about it?


what are we doing giving any weight at all what others think? Hamas "endorsed" Obama? BFD. The same folks who bitch about that would look the other way if Osama bin Laden showed up on Al-Jazeera holding a copy of today's WSJ and endorsed McCain.

Because we have all already heard of the Obama endorsements from you hacks on the right you hypocritical fucking dip shit.

Thanks for being right on cue.....

Manypaths,
Danforth is voting for Obama. Hahahahahahaha!

Being a POW doesn't give you courage. Did he try to escape? He didn't - so he surrendered his life until he was released. That's cowardice.

Some jew with NO experience in military or Senate died trying to escape. Show me where McCain tried to escape and I'll agree his military experience shows his courage is greater than Obama's. Deal?


Posted by Petrous

You can't be serious. Oh wait, I guess you mean Obama is more couragous because ISLAM has or probably will issue a FATWA against him for renouncing his muslimship.

Look up the answers to your own stupid questions you god damned tard. I'm not McCains liason nor am I a supporter of his.

Pointing out your stupidity doesn't make me a fan of McCains.

Being a POW doesn't give you courage. Did he try to escape? He didn't - so he surrendered his life until he was released. That's cowardice.

Posted by Petrous


^^^Idiot Alert^^^

FACT!

Holy shit. I thought this Petrous retard was new. How haven't I noticed this clown before now?

Because we have all already heard of the Obama endorsements from you hacks on the right you hypocritical fucking dip shit."

Hey, dumbass, don't you get it? I was remarking on how ridiculous it is for BOTH sides to play "gotcha" with unsought endorsements. Were David Duke to endorse McCain, that would mean NOTHING about McCain or his followers.

"Danforth is voting for Obama. Hahahahahahaha!"

He's going to be the next President of the United States. Hahahahahahaha!

Danforth is voting for Obama. Hahahahahahaha!

Dude, that still isn't as funny as you voting for McCain.

He's going to be the next President of the United States. Hahahahahahaha!

Posted by Danforth at 2008-07-01 03:31 PM | Reply

Did you miss the obvious fact that I was laughing at Manypaths for accusing you of being "a hack on the right" or are you as retarded as Petrous?


MP,
If I keep saying you're voting for McCain will that make it true? I'd rather avoid repeating something so stupid but if you'd like to continue telling me who I'm voting for then I'll tell you who you're going to vote for as well.
Hows that sound?

Show me where McCain tried to escape and I'll agree his military experience shows his courage is greater than Obama's. Deal?


Posted by Petrous at 2008-07-01 03:12 PM | Reply |


Petrous--

McCain was offered up to go home--leave the gracious Hanoi Hilton. Go Home--they wanted him gone as he was the son of an Admiral.

McCain refused and choose to stay with the men.

Doesn't this count for something of integrity and honor.

What has Obama done to even come close to this kind of decision making in his entire life?

Obama is not even a sentila of what McCain is with regards to honor.

Music to my ears!

"Did you miss the obvious fact that I was laughing at Manypaths for accusing you of being "a hack on the right" or are you as retarded as Petrous?"

I missed it all...I need to stop just popping in....

Back to work.

I missed it all...I need to stop just popping in....

Back to work.

Posted by Danforth at 2008-07-01 03:46 PM

It happens to all of us.

McCain was offered up to go home--leave the gracious Hanoi Hilton. Go Home--they wanted him gone as he was the son of an Admiral.


McCain refused and choose to stay with the men.


It's called parole, and in John's circumstance, he could have been punished by death here in the States had he accepted it.

That's why he refused. He knew at the very least, he would have gone to prison here in the States.

On June 4, 1969, a U.S. wire service story headlined "PW Songbird Is Pilot Son of Admiral," reported one of McCain's radio broadcasts: "Hanoi has aired a broadcast in which the pilot son of the United States commander in the Pacific, Adm. John McCain, purportedly admits to having bombed civilian targets in North Vietnam and praises medical treatment he has received since being taken prisoner.

"The broadcast was beamed to American servicemen in South Vietnam as a part of a propaganda series attempting to counter charges by U.S. Defense Secretary Melvin Laird that American prisoners are being mistreated in North Vietnam."

McCain says he violated the Code of Conduct only when the North Vietnamese brutally tortured him. He further claims that he was so distraught afterwards that he tried to commit suicide. He has never explained why his "aid to the enemy" continued for more than three years.

Many--you crack me up! LOL

You honestly believe the ENEMY over our soldiers don't you?

DID you know that the enemy also claimed that our pilots were deliberately ditching their planes to come to THEIR phucking side? They claimed that something like 4100 planes were shot down because the US pilots WANTED to be shot down!

They said this about all the POW's in their prisons.

He was given the offer to leave and he choose to stay with the men.

And if he was guilty of this "aid to the enemy" why wasn't he arrested and put in prison here when he returned to the States?

It's called propaganda and I can't believe you would believe it.

Who has more experience to be POTUS?

Question number one.

Who has killed more people? McCain.
Who has maimed more people? McCain.
Who injured more people without maiming them or killing them? McCain.

SCOTUS - the punishment for raping a child should not be death because it is not proportional to the crime.

Was McCain's torture proportional to the number of people he had killed, left maimed and injured?

Just following orders. Do you remember the faces of those you shot at? Nope. It's hard to see faces when you're flying by them.

Who didn't read the NIE? McCain.

Experience. Yes, he has killed people. Maimed people as much as he has been maimed. He has injured people he didn't know.

Should the US have even been in Vietnam? It's ok to play this game. Did the US really have to be there? If so, why did we leave?

Now you had your Iraq. You had the NIE. McCain, with all his experience - having lived through Vietnam, decides that it isn't necessary to read the NIE. But, he finds it necessary to send other people to their death in a war he didn't prepare himself for by reading the details.

This is who you want for president. Don't read the intelligence. Anything contrary to your position, ignore it and go forth with your gut.

Did he not say 100 years? Did he not say bomb Iran?

Yes, He has proven whether his qualifications for president have been met.

"McCain refused and choose to stay with the men.

Doesn't this count for something of integrity and honor.

Murphy"


Yes, he was foolish. How do you attempt an escape for your men if you stay with them. It is easier to devise plans to save your men when you are not one of the prisoners.

Integrity and honor? No. He chose imprisonment which solves his problem of saving his men. He prevented the military from having his experience and expertise available to train others. His intelligence of the location of where they were, what they did to him and others - all this information lost to his superiors because he chose to stay behind.

He helped no one by staying and gave up all chances available to him if he had left.


And if he was guilty of this "aid to the enemy" why wasn't he arrested and put in prison here when he returned to the States?


It's called propaganda and I can't believe you would believe it.

Murphy,

Why don't you look into it yourself?

I understand that you don't want to take the enemy's word for it.

Would you take the word of the majority of his fellow POWs?

Careful now.........(Enjoy your investigation)

On June 4, 1969, a U.S. wire service story headlined "PW Songbird Is Pilot Son of Admiral,"

That's the enemy huh Murphy?

Boy, you are one naive individual.

Again, enjoy your investigation.

For those of You who think John McCain by merely being a POW makes Him couragious. Do You feel those POWs down in Gitmo are also couraguos?? Just curious.

Larry Mohr


For those of You who think John McCain by merely being a POW makes Him couragious. Do You feel those POWs down in Gitmo are also couraguos?? Just curious.


Larry Mohr

Woof Larry!

So no bitching JeffJ.


I am not bitching, Larry.


Quite the contrary.

This is a losing strategy for the Dems.

I hope you guys smear McCain's service until you're all blue in the face.

I hope Spud becomes the official McCain-hating 527 coordinator for the Dems and smears up a storm.


I am loving this!


Keep it up, kids.

You kids only have smears to attack Obama with cos yer political arguments are shit.

Posted by dethspud


Actually, our political arguments are spot-on.

You just have a boner for Obama and will dismiss out-of-hand any criticism of him, no matter how salient.

You can be very challenging to debate with. However, when it comes to Obama you curl up into a shell and the gist of your posts is tatamount to:

"Nuh uh!!"

There goes Jeff thinking that what gets posted on the DR means a God Damn Thing again.

Do you ever pay attention to your own thoughts before blurting them out.

You have a level of self-importance that would amaze the Pope.




"I have as much power as the Pope, just fewer people that believe it."

- Carlin

MP,

What you just posted makes no sense.


Can you clarify what the f*** you are talking about?

For those of You who think John McCain by merely being a POW makes Him couragious. Do You feel those POWs down in Gitmo are also couraguos?? Just curious.
Larry Mohr
Posted by LarryMohr at 2008-07-01 05:24 PM | Reply | Flag: Flag:

Larry, has any of them try to escape? That'll be more than John tried.

Not sure Petrous. I could find out I suppose. Build a boat out of a couple palets and paddle My way over and ask the "Warden" I just have to figure out how to get to Florida.

Larry

I'm not voting for John McCain. Having said that, many posts on this thread are bizarre elaborations on hothouse and quite venal personal theories on the nature of duty and courage.

It's all beneath those posting such trash. McCain deserves respect for what happened to him Nam, even if for some reason you can't see him as a hero.

"McCain deserves respect"
-Zed

My late first father-in-law was a POW, captured at Kasserine I; Four years in an Oflag in Poland.

My present quite alive ex-physics teacher father-in-law worked on the Berlin Airlift with my dad.

(They never got close to meeting.)

McCain's walked the walk.

It is possible to receive a honorable discharge from the Service and deserve a dishonorable discharge from society.

Respect?

You earn respect and you lose respect.

He didn't read the NIE. He voted to go to war with Iraq without caution. He's heading in the same direction with Iran.

He lacks credibility like so many in Congress.
The media has us convinced that it was Bush's idea and the poor Congress was tricked into voting for the war. This same media tells us that Bush is barely above average intelligence yet he duped the Congress?

The Senator earned respect with his Service to his country. But, the measure of the man must include all his actions. He lost respect and that is his own doing. He is in good company with the other Senators who didn't read first before voting.

Considering his military experience and his declaring it to be of much importance for his POTUS bid, he should have read the NIE. He knew better than to send soldiers to die without being sure he had read the information available for such an important decision. His lack of judgment reflects on his honor, his integrity, and whether he'd responsibly act as CiC.

The most interesting thing about this thread is the large number of posts by 101 without a single homoerotic slur.

Seriously!

"The measure of a man must include all his actions...."

By whatever measure you judge, you will be judged. As sobering a thought to me as it should be to you.

He is in good company with the other Senators who didn't read first before voting.

Posted by Petrous

you mean ALL of the senators, right, pet?

None of them read it. None of them read most of the bills the vote for.

But we still vote for them.

Incumbency over constituency wins again.

"By whatever measure you judge, you will be judged."
Posted by Zed

Maybe Descartes had it right all along? You can't say with any certainty that A=A.

"As sobering a thought to me as it should be to you."
Posted by Zed

That sounds like a judgment, Zed.

No personal judgment involved at all, Hagbard. No one is righteous, no one. Comes from the highest possible authority.

Zed, my suggestion here is that the common christian understanding of what it means to "judge" may be far too limited. think about that.

Though I can't say for sure.

"You can't say with certainty that A=A...."

That's a fundamental fact of human psychology. All of science hangs and is hanged by it.

That's a fundamental fact of human psychology. All of science hangs and is hanged by it.

Posted by Zed

That's why I suggest what I do in the 8:43 thread.

The Kerry-McCain comparison is not really accurate. Clark didn't call McCain a liar and accuse him of purposefully becoming a POW in order to advance a predetermined political career. He questioned whether McCain's military career gave him the executive experience one would expect by the heavy emphasis placed on it by his campaign. I would have expected similar questions to be aimed a Kerry, but unfortunately this was not the case as the Swiftboaters were more about character assassination than legitamit questions.

It should be obvious to all but the most brain dead that McCain would be another puppet President along the lines of Reagan, Bush the 1st, and Bush the 2nd. They made no decisions and did not lead. They took orders. That's why McCain is flip flopping so much.

He's just learning to take orders.

youtube.com

If it's on youtube.com it's gotta be true.

Okay, we get differing accounts from POW McSame and his Hanoi Hilton captor.

Now I ask Murphy, The Chair, JJ and all the other Republitards one small question.

Which one has more to win or lose from lying? herm

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