I can hear the punditry of the right grabbing at this one now.

"Why is the death-toll in Iraq such a huge issue for the left when the death-toll in Afghanistan has exceeded that of Iraq?"

then...

"Could this mean the surge is working?"

I bet I hear these questions today at work when the guy who shares office space with me flips on his Rush Limbaugh.

Bin Laden is laughing his ass off.

-Bush got a second term
-Bin Laden got his terrorist recruiting dream
-America's going broke - The Iraq War has so far sapped $1,000,000,000,000 (trillion). Enough to have rebuilt countless highways, bridges, schools, and a myriad of things.
-We've borrowed and borrowed from communists

"The Iraq War has so far sapped $1,000,000,000,000 (trillion)."

Considering the minority of "rich people" are the ones footing the bill, I'm not sure why so many care about this. I guess it could mean less handouts.

-Bush got a second term
-Bin Laden got his terrorist recruiting dream
-America's going broke - The Iraq War has so far sapped $1,000,000,000,000 (trillion). Enough to have rebuilt countless highways, bridges, schools, and a myriad of things.
-We've borrowed and borrowed from communists

Posted by AMERICANUNITY

Wow.

Bin Laden got his dream, but millions of Muslims lost everything! Sounds like nobody won anything.

" Sounds like nobody won anything"

That's what war is all about, Charlie Brown.

-America's going broke - The Iraq War has so far sapped $1,000,000,000,000 (trillion). Enough to have rebuilt countless highways, bridges, schools, and a myriad of things.

Posted by AMERICANUNITY

This is a good point on a high level, but if you look at the real problem, it's simple. You are concerned about mounting debt and a bad foriegn policy, then you should be interented in this.

you probably didn't know this, but there is plenty of money for roads, bridges, and infrastructure. It's just not being used properly. The concept of citizens paying Federal taxes only to be sent back to the states to pay for something that is already the State's reponisbility seemed like a good ides in the beginning, but this concept has run it's course, has failed and needs to be revisited.

You say "Enough to have rebuilt countless highways, bridges, schools, and a myriad of things." and I say, that's true, but there is already more than enough to accomplish these things. Way more than enough. The US is enormously rich. The problem is that when you have a system like this, the recipients, after a while, become "Grant Writers".

Their full-time job is to write grants and budget requests. They are successful when they get more money so they pad the budget, write phoney excuse for rising costs, etc. It's inherent in the system. You can figure this out if you would just pay attention.

Congress has lost it's way. They are overspending because they have access to the money. Think about it! The Federal Reserve is a law-maker's best friend. When costs get too high, there are two things that you can do. Raise taxes or cut cost. Both are bad for a Congressmen facing reelection. However, there is a third choice. Increase the money supply and use that money to pay for the rising costs (which are rising because you increased the money supply). It's a win-win for Congress and the bankers. However...

"Afghanistan More Deadly for Troops Than Iraq"

YEAH!

So! As if Afghanistan has anything to do with 9-11 and making us Safer from Terrorism!

Sincerely

Snipe_the_vernhole_nancypants

" Sounds like nobody won anything"

That's what war is all about, Charlie Brown.

Posted by Jomama

Exactly! You catch on a little slow, but you're getting there, Jomama. :)

Monster says, "Considering the minority of "rich people" are the ones footing the bill, I'm not sure why so many care about this. I guess it could mean less handouts".

The fucking war is being funded by China, Japan and Saudi Arbia, in case you didn't know. They're the only buyers of large quantities of Treasury Notes. What happens next? Either our "investors' can pull the plug, we can default and issue new currency, or we can endure the Chicago School thing like was forced apon Africa, Russia, Central and South America. The last option will most certainly be born by middle and lower class citizens. The rich don't pay shit, they don't even have any declarable income.

Warren Buffet knows better. He has protested the fact that his secretary pays more in taxes than he does. Why do you think that is? Could it be a system of legalized political bribery and privatization run amoke has destroyed our economic prosperity?

"Warren Buffet knows better. He has protested the fact that his secretary pays more in taxes than he does. "

Let's be precise: he's protested the fact his secretary pays a larger percentage of her income in taxes than he does.

-Bin Laden got his terrorist recruiting dream
** REALLY? How come they are now down to using WOMEN bombers - when that is strickly forbidden in Islam? How come all deaths are down in Iraq and the killing is now focused on IRAQI military..not the US? IF we were the focus for the recruiting how come we are not seeing massive deaths every day? I guess your version of reality is not correct.

-America's going broke - The Iraq War has so far sapped $1,000,000,000,000 (trillion). Enough to have rebuilt countless highways, bridges, schools, and a myriad of things.

What happens next? Either our "investors' can pull the plug, we can default and issue new currency, or we can endure the Chicago School thing like was forced apon Africa, Russia, Central and South America.

~Nutcase

This is precisely wot Spud is afeared is gonna happen.

After years of the US forcing other countries to adopt Milton Fraudman's "shock treatment" economic policies that boils down to slashed social spending and sweetheart deals fer multinational corporations, it may well end up becoming a case of America's chickens coming home to roost.

"Africa, Russia, Central and South America"?

Yup.

Don't fergit South Africa and Poland too.

On Topic?

Afghanistan is failing. Big time.

The Pashtuns have never seriously been brought to the table in terms of sharing political power and that factor alone makes true peace in Afghanistan very difficult if not impossible.

The inevitable result of all these mis-cues has been increased sympathy fer the AQ in Pakistan's FATA region, and increased violence in Afghanistan.

The recent switch from frontal hit and run assaults on the part of the Taliban to more suicide bombings and IEDs is worrying.

It appears the Taliban and their AQ allies are going into pure guerrilla warfare mode here.

The over-reaction of the troops towards the local people they find after one of these incidents merely leads to more recruits fer the resistance and less trust in the troops.

But as long as the pipelines continue to be built the shitheads at BushCo still consider the conflict to be a rousing success.

Ignorant, amoral asswipes that they are.

Be Well.

"It appears the Taliban and their AQ allies are going into pure guerrilla warfare mode here"

and they have a thousand years of experience at guerrilla warfare

Posted by foshaffer

Good post foshaffer.

Our country's largest problem is ignorance brought on by an over-active media.

Deth,

You really should lay off the bong.

Prior to the war the Taliban owned the country, and was the training ground for thousands of terriorist including the 911 group. Now the only safe haven that they have is the mountains and southern Pakistan which we have finally decided to go after.

The war where every news media was predicting would take 5 -10 years to fight, would become a 2nd "Vietnam where 50K a month will come home in body bags" to quote Dan Rather.

We lost less than 1000 and the significant fighting was over in 6 months.

They have had about 5 -7 years now of realitive peace with the majority of the country functioning under an elected government.

but that is not a "rousing success"

But you "anti US" types are all alike ...whine about the establishment ..Until your ass is on the line and then "where is the government to protect me" (Katrina (oh and where is the outcry over Iowa?)

"Considering the minority of "rich people" are the ones footing the bill, I'm not sure why so many care about this. I guess it could mean less handouts."

Considering that is total bullshit I'd have to say you're an idiot.

Has it occurred to anybody that the Iraq surged sent thousands of the fighters to a new front, Afghanistan. Notice that when the surge was announced, weeks later Afghanistan started going down even more and casualties started to mount.

There will never be truth in America politics.

America is a down right mean country.

actually foshaffer

couple corrections

prior to the war
the taliban didn't own the country

they had the majority of the country
under their rule

to the north was still the northern alliance
and there were other small war lords

prior to the taliban
there was NO government in afghanistan
just war for a hundred years

also
the so called "safe havens" are in the west of pakistan and the northwest

no where near the south along the coast.

there hasn't been real peace in afghanistan ever.
there is peace in kabul the capital where the us military is based
but the rest of afghanistan is the same as it has been for the last 1000 years

sorry dude but you don't know what its like over there.

my family is from pakistan
and some of them live near the southern afghan border, where taliban is not active.

afganistan doesn't have INFRASTRUCTURE to be governed by.

how are they going to get to the people without roads!!!

the single lane dirt road infrastructure makes modern governing impossible.

700 B of which the majority was for US troops that would have been part of the cost of having a standing army anyways (about 250B of that)

So 1/3 is now the majority? Vernon's calculator must be breeding.
And eddie, how much of that is for NG troops? How much are VA benefits going to be? And how much interets are we paying on Bush's debt?
And where oh where is Osama bin forgotten? With those pesky Iraqi WMD?
america's problemisn't over active media, it's with overactive and underperforming Republicans.

Klifferd,

Do you have a point or are you just correcting minor errors? You didn't refute the main argument, so what exactly are you trying to say, other than you are from there.

Upset,

Look at a map. To get to Pakistan the fighters would have had to travel through IRAN. So the "Surge" may have transferred Iranian fighters from Iraq but not Iraqi fighters. Based on the intercepted diary from an Al Queda leader in Iraq it was getting harder and harder for them to recruit people.

As to "America is a down right mean country" - SHAME ON YOU! you should kiss the ground you walk on every day.

Ask Eastern Europeans how mean America is, or the 20MILLION ILLEGAL's in this country..if we are so mean how come everyone wants to come here? Ask the Europeans ( the ones old enough to remember) how it was to live under Nazi Germany...and when we had an army that NOBODY could have touched at the end of WW2...we walked away - no country in the HISTORY of the WORLD captured territory only to hand it back to the population.

Ask the Iraqi's how it was under Saddam - or the Kuwaities. How about the Polish under Stalin - or the USSR - or how about the Cambodia killing fields, the Vietnam repatriation, Cuban Exiles, ask any African how "Mean" the US is compared to their governments. Then tell me how "MEAN" the US is.

People died to allow you to live in an Airconditioned house, with the freedom to live how you choose, buy what you feel you need, work where you want to work and free to say stupid things.

You are just another spoiled ungrateful uneducated brat of American.

correcting peoples information only

i'm not making a point

not trying to at least

whatever side of the argument you are on
you should know the facts.

again foshoaffer

you have arguments but your facts are wrong

"Ask the Iraqi's how it was under Saddam "

my wife is iraqi, and kurdish, she and her family think the usa shouldn't have gone to war with iraq, at least not the way it was executed.

as for america being mean

it is both the most loving and caring in the world
with the best humanitarianism in the world

but it can come off as mean because it is always at war

besides, it is AMERICAN and PATRIOTIC to critisize your own country and your own government.

If it wasn't George Washington and John Adams and Thomas Jefferson would have outlawed it.
Critisism was just as disrespectful back then

The 700B is an estimate - the 250 is acutal and the 84 is an estimate. Out of the study ( if you look up the CRS study) there is apx. 100 B for National Guard of which some of that would have been spent anyways. 700 - 84 is 616 - 100 is 516 and that is off an ESTIMATED 700B not acutal. So saying that 250 is apx. half is no stretch.

But the 1/2 , 1/3rd or 10th is not the issue. The issue stated that we were taking a trillion and the assumption was that it was eating into what we would spend elsewhere...and that is not supported by the facts. The Trillion was a forecast out to 2018 and it is a pitance vrs our GNP.

- now to Kil - If you look at the post I stated South - and I was talking about Afganistan and if you look on the map the Southern border of Afganistan is the issue - not Southern Pakistan - which you correctly pointed out.

Actually Afganistan was a realitively stable and safe place from 1929 to 1978 when the coup de ta over through Zahir by Khan. It has been through hell since then with the Talban holding about 80 to 90% of the country..so I would say that amounted to effective governing control.

You are right...I do not live there and cannot imagine what it was / is like...I only know what I read and the people I talk to.

The Kandahar - Kabal section of the ring road is finished, and about 40% of the Kandahar to the northern mountians is finished as well....so we are well underway to providing the transportation you stated was critical...and by the way..we are the only nation to step in and do this.

"and by the way..we are the only nation to step in and do this."

which is awesome

and i have no qualms about this

if this is true
and the usa is doing this
thats great

also building schools
so the next generation of afghans are not ignorant and easily swade into a version of islam that is counter to the message of the koran

As to critizing your country...to critize just to critize is not patriotic...it is undermining. And if you are going to critize it should be to better your country - not to undermine it in world - and with a suggestion of a way to improve a situation.

The original founders saw that free speech was important - but with it comes a responsiblity. To say the US is "mean" is to disregard everything that we have done positive in the world as well as our current way of life.

We are at war because someone has to stand up to the bullies in this world. The people that seek to do harm. Your people may not thought us going in was a good thing...were they Sunni's?

I have talked to many an Iraqi that think we screwed up a couple of years but that we are on the right track now. So why would we re-screw up and leave as Obama wants to do?

And eddie, how much of that is for NG troops? How much are VA benefits going to be? And how much interets are we paying on Bush's debt?
Posted by northguy3

Why are you asking me this?

If you read my post, I don't support Bush nor the war.

And I don't support Obama or any Democrats.

So that automatically makes me a Bush supporter?

Northguy, there is a growing number of Americans becoming educated who are not going to vote for a Democrat nor a Republican.

again foshoaffer

you have arguments but your facts are wrong

"Ask the Iraqi's how it was under Saddam "

my wife is iraqi, and kurdish, she and her family think the usa shouldn't have gone to war with iraq, at least not the way it was executed.

Posted by klifferd

I know Kurdish and they are a proud people, just like any other group in the world. It doesn't matter how this "operation" was conducted, it would have been criticized by one group or another. Another point of view is that people simply don't like having a foreigner come into their country, blow everything up, rebuild it and then tell them this is how things are going to be run. It's demeaning and arrogant, no matter how good intentioned we are.

Prior to the war the Taliban owned the country, and was the training ground for thousands of terriorist including the 911 group. Now the only safe haven that they have is the mountains and southern Pakistan which we have finally decided to go after.

~Fooshifter.

Prior to the war America supported the Taliban and Al Quada with money, training and weapons in an attempt to give the invading Soviet Army "their own Vietnam".

After the Soviet left America abandoned the area.

The resulting takeover by the Taliban over the corrupt local warlords was practically inevitable in hindsight.

Safe Havens? Anti Americanican sentiment has increased in most parts of the Muslim world. Money from Saudi Arabia and other rich Islamic countries continues to pour in. The vast majority of citizens of both Iraq and Afghanistan want the foreign troops out. The point to this article is that Afghanistan is becoming less of a safe haven to coalition forces not the Taliban. The elements the coalition are fighting are switching tactics and becoming emboldened by their successes.

The war where every news media was predicting would take 5 -10 years to fight, would become a 2nd "Vietnam where 50K a month will come home in body bags" to quote Dan Rather

Rather sed 50K?

Yet another quote you just pulled out of yer ass?

You really got to stop doing that you know.

We lost less than 1000 and the significant fighting was over in 6 months

The most technologically advanced country in the world militarily against a bunch of under-armed third worlders took minimal casualties?

Is Spud supposed to be impressed by that?

They have had about 5 -7 years now of realitive peace with the majority of the country functioning under an elected government.

You've had 5-7 years of a puppet government in Kabul where Karzai's writ runs out at the city limits.

Peace? Relative to wot? Afghanistan has been a country torn by war fer the last thirty years.

The only peace the average Afghani knows is the peace of the grave.

Canada joined up in the fight against the Taliban the month after 9/11 and Spud agreed with that decision, then and now.

That sed, the way BushCo went out of their way to use the political capitol garnered after 9/11 in order to invade Afghansitan and then diverted that fight (and many of it's resources) to Iraq continues to be a real sticking point with the spuddish one.

At least yer not just mindlessly hurling insults like other reighty tighty asswipes. That sed, yer understanding of the current situation leaves a lot to be desired.

Be Well.

At least yer not just mindlessly hurling insults like other reighty tighty asswipes.

Be Well.

Posted by dethspud

You want to rephrase this spud? :)

Spud,

When Ron Paul sez the stuff you're saying it comes off as truth. But, when you say it, it comes off as being anti-American for some reason. Why is that? You are both saying the same thing!

I guess it's because I trust Ron Paul because his agenda is clear. The Lib's agenda is also clear. Ah, that's it. I understand now.

You have all failed to mention that Iraq is at an all time 2 month low in troop deaths. This is good news for Iraq. Most right leaning media outlets have been questioning how the media would spin this good news into bad news.

Well, here you have it, "Afghanistan More Deadly for Troops Than Iraq".

More liberal spin!

Liberal Media my ass. TV, Radio, Newspapers are all Corporations with interests common to ALL Capitalists. They wage an information war built around the IMF, Chicago School of Economics, that supported Pinoche and every other fucking tyrannt with US connections. The bullshit that flows from fake think tanks and fills the media is part of a war on the middle class, to reduce wages and benfits. "This is indeed what Nobel Economic Prizes are given for. But it's Junk Economics" (Mike Whitney).

"You have all failed to mention that Iraq is at an all time 2 month low in troop deaths"

like i said before

even if everythign is restored tomorrow
and we come home

is that a victory

what did we win

i know iraq won
i know iran won

what did the usa win?