Or, we can rely on technological innovation, telecommuting, and the desire for commercial businesses to be closer to their customers and workers and move to THEM.

High gas prices will bring about a lot of positives. It's silly in the age of the broadband modem and the telephone to have people trudge downtown to work, when then can do just as much, and just as well, closer to home.

It's not just about going to work. All our lives out here in suburbia are conditioned on driving to get anywhere.

I've been thinking lately that the next big population shift in the U.S. will be from the 'burbs to more dense walking communities where you can do a lot of shopping and leisure activities on foot and mass transit is available. This will especially be true of older Americans who don't need as much house any more.

My next car will be a hybrid. My next house, if I have to move, will probably be far less suburban than the My Blue Heaven life I'm living now.

"High gas prices will bring about a lot of positives"

YEAH!

Well what else can you say? It's not like your going to assail Bush like you did with Carter!


Principles I guess!

And it looks like decades of waste and shortsightedness ultimately is what is going to "Destroy our Way of Life"!

I wonder who we get to thank for that? Any suggestions risr?

Krugman can live in his gentrified section of the inner city with the liberal wine-sipping crowd, but we are not moving back to the shit hole that is todays urban center.

I wonder who we get to thank for that? Any suggestions risr?

Posted by Redneckville

Let me start by nominating...

1. Henry Ford
2. Robert Moses

but we are not moving back to the shit hole that is todays urban center.

Posted by fwthom

Hope y'all have fun walking 5-10+ miles to work, school, church.

Through a foot of snow in the dead of winter.....

UPHILL!!

The model of mass transit already exists in most cities. Suburban hubs where you can park your car and catch a bus, train or carpool to work. People can continue to live in the burbs if their commute is only a few miles to the hub.

Unfortunately a lot of people don't go to work in one place all day, but have to drive as part of their job.

"but we are not moving back to the shit hole that is todays urban center."

I don't think we'll miss your presence. Personally I like being able to drive to work in nine minutes and having downtown only a few blocks away while still enjoying a Key WEst type atmosphere. I wouldn't move to the suburbs if you paid me, well if you paid me a lot you could.

Not to mention those with disabilities where walking/pushing a wheelchair 2 miles or even 2 blocks isn't an option...
Mass transit is a nice idea but when there isn't a stop near your house or your job, a nice idea is all it is.

Didn't Frank Lloyd Wright also encourage more of a sprawl in city design? I think I remember reading something about that.

Krugman can live in his gentrified section of the inner city with the liberal wine-sipping crowd, but we are not moving back to the shit hole that is todays urban center.

Posted by fwthom at 2008-05-19 12:06 PM | Reply | Flag: Flag: (Choose)
FunnyNewsworthyOffensiveAbusiv e

Granted, many U.S. cities have had serious issues. But a major reason is because everybody with money or clout left decades ago for the (then) open suburbs. You rebalance the urban population and put homeowners who give a hoot back in, and suddenly things look a lot rosier. It's already going on all over America. Some cities haven't figured out how to do it, but some have - BIG TIME. And the result is restaurants, shopping, work, safe schools and more all within walking distance.

And it's not being forced on any of you. Your beloved market forces are leading inexorably toward a return to cities and towns. They don't have to even be OLD cities - see "New Urbanism." It's just a matter of smaller lot sizes, gridded streets, less emphasis on cars and more on bikes, trains, the human foot, etc. Oh, and relax those zoning laws (with exceptions for heavy industry) so that you can have your home over your storefront or an ice cream shop next door or your school within your neighborhood.

One other thing, dude - it's not all liberals. A lot of conservaties (see also "conservation") love their new urban digs.

GO LOCAL! Try it, it's fun - and rewarding!

Oops - sorry about the run-on italics. The italics should stop after fwthom's comment.

Wherever FatWahTHOM calls home is a shithole.

Living like Europeans?

Well, if we get those six weeks vacations then maybe it's not that bad, lol!

Monty,

Nice to see you are still stalking me; I'm glad I can add some meaning to your painful and shattered life. But only losers like you have time to read your silly links.

Then that would include you, Vernon...

"But only losers like you have time to read your silly links.

Posted by vernon at 2008-05-19 01:00 PM"

Vernon, even someone as ancient and grumpy as you should be able to read all the words in those links, given that the total word count in those three links is a whopping zero (it probably comes up as 3,256 on your calculator, but it is zero for the rest of the world). I try to make it easy for senior citizens like yourself and McAncient.

"Well, if we get those six weeks vacations then maybe it's not that bad, lol!"

I'm ready for that!!!!

Even if the inner cities were completely rebuilt they would be destroyed within a few years because the same people live there. The PEOPLE are the problem, not the city. That's also why the schools are bad, the crime is high, and businesses are starving for skilled workers.

Monty, it's tragic what your father did to you and your sister as children. I pity you.

...in the meantime PULL OUT OF IRAQ AND LEAVE IRAN ALONE. Israel needs to stop stealing and killing. Do achieve this end the US needs to make it clear that future aid to Israel is contingent apon halting Israeli expansion of settlements and water confiscation. The Bible says a little bit about every human propensity, exactly as if it is the word of man. Let's not destroy this country or the world we live in with a self-fulfilling Biblical prophesy.

Vernon the broken record. Don't you have a bench you can go sit on while yelling at the kids in the park and letting your daily bran do its work? Or maybe go sign your fat wife up for Pilates. Do something with your pathetic existence, curmudgeon.

I envision for the future the MegaHabs.

The planetary population is increasing.

The competition for resources (energy, water, land for farming) is becoming more acute.

Degradation of the ecosystem is increasing because of human activity.

The planet can sustain our way of life with our increasing numbers for so long before the ecosystem collapses completely. This is a given. There will be nothing we will be able to do, except die.

One solution, though it would entail a rather significant paradigm shift in the way we live, would be the construction of what I term MegaHabs.

In its simplest form, a MegaHab could be described as a single building, a mile in height and width, with entire floors being sub-governmental entities, comparable to small cities. This structure would be entirely self contained, could comfortably house millions, and provide all the needs and wants of each person.

Between each MegaHab, the land would be dedicated to either farming, or allowed to go back to its natural state. Travel between MegaHabs, if one had a reason to do so, would consist of high-speed, low-impact rail lines. The age of the private automobile would be over.

One may not ever need to leave the MegaHab as everything would be within easy reach.

I know smacks of sci-fi geekness. But it would work. It would significantly reduce the impact to the planet and render far more efficient the distribution and use of the planets resources.

"Even if the inner cities were completely rebuilt they would be destroyed within a few years because the same people live there."

Actually, I think you'll see the reverse as the more affluent move into the city where the property values will become too high for the lower income folks. We will end up with suburban ghettos of McMansions in disrepair and swarms of poor people isolated away from the city. IMHO.

We need a cull of all but 10% world wide,
and in 2000 years do it again.
Repeat when necessary.

"Do you ever get the feeling that we are just mold on a sandwich?"

Actually, I think you'll see the reverse as the more affluent move into the city where the property values will become too high for the lower income folks. We will end up with suburban ghettos of McMansions in disrepair and swarms of poor people isolated away from the city. IMHO.

That seems like the more likely scenario to me. The downtowns become gentrified and poor people are driven out to some of the cheaper burbs that ring the city.

Long after today's S.U.V.'s have become antique collectors' items, millions of people will still be living in subdivisions built when gas was $1.50 or less a gallon.


A lot of my employees live close to an hour away from work in McMansions built out of cheap materials and now complain about the cost of driving to work. I hear about $70 - $100 per week just to commute common.

But of course any thought of carpooling or taking mass transit is out of the question! That would be inconvenient.

If you want mass transit to work in this country, you're going to have to do something about the unwashed, the crazy, and the criminally inclined. Atlanta has a very nice rail system, but once you've spent an hour or two jammed next to a bunch of inner-city residents possessed of only the sketchiest notions of bodily hygiene, you tend to long for your own car again. Hard. Being incessantly panhandled gets on your nerves, and the steady drumbeat of news reports detailing muggings, attacks, and other incidents in MARTA stations isn't very reassuring, either.

To make mass transit a realistic option, zero-tolerance policies for horseshit- and anyone who smells like horseshit- will have to be enacted and enforced. Nobody in their right mind would subject themselves to what you go through on mass transit now if they have a car.

these are all good suggestions but the basic math doesn't add up. You can't put 10 lbs. of shit in a five lb. bag.

The population reduction to 10% would do it but who would mow your grass?

Sad but true, Lip

I'll take Stranded in Suburbia over Holiday in Cambodia any day of the week. :)

but we are not moving back to the shit hole that is todays urban center.

Posted by fwthom


the further you are from civilization and civilized people in general, the better for all of us.

Vernon the broken record.

Hmmmmm ......
"ancient and grumpy"
"senior citizens"
"fat wife"
"curmudgeon"

Posted by mOntecOre at 2008-05-19 01:42 PM | Reply

Yes, there is certainly a broken record playing.

Funny that you mention 'records.' That's the foot-wide plastic disc that played on turntable? All I have are CDs.

I think we see what's going on here. You're some creaky old bitch pissed at your father, your three ex-husbands and your kids (plus their various fathers).

I think it's called 'projecting'

Don't be dissin the LP now!

For example, some major public transit systems are excited about ridership gains of 5 or 10 percent. But fewer than 5 percent of Americans take public transit to work, so this surge of riders takes only a relative handful of drivers off the road.

Reading JOHNSON is like eating a chocolate sundae while having my back rubbed by my girlfriend. Reading the crayon scibblings of liberals on DR is like having a root canal without novocaine and my wife in the corner scratching a blackboard.

Krugman is a tool who doesn't have a clue what he's talking about
~rob


LOL yea a tool who is a professor of economics and international affairs at Princeton University.


And wobby, well he says it best himself . . .

"Krugman is a tool who doesn't have a clue what he's talking about

Posted by Rob_The_A_Hole "


Translation: I can't think of an on-topic retort, so I'll just find another issue where he was wrong.

Boy it sure is amazing that the draft came back just as Krugman said it would... did it effect you Null? How about you Zap? Anyone in your families drafted?

I can't think of an on-topic retort, so I'll just find another issue where he was wrong.

Posted by nullifidian


Yeah, its completely off topic to question his prediction by pointing out a past prediction he made that couldn't have been more wrong... Irrelevent...

The same Krugman who said Bush would bring back the draft


Yes in 2004...


Back when Bush, Cheney, and Rummy were claiming Victory just around the corner..


Great find wobby next up Mission Accomplished?

Great find wobby next up Mission Accomplished?

Posted by Zap



No, I'll stick with Krugman saying that Bush was bringing back the draft, and 4 years later... hmmm... no draft. But you're right, he's a fucking psychic... better listen to his every word.

"Yeah, its completely off topic to question his prediction by pointing out a past prediction he made that couldn't have been more wrong... Irrelevent...

Posted by Rob_The_A_Hole"

Translation: Krugman was wrong once, ergo, he is wrong this time, and besides, I still can't think of any on-topic rebuttal.

No, I'll stick with Krugman saying that Bush was bringing back the draft, and 4 years later... hmmm... no draft.


7 years later hmm still quagmire...

Since were playing what was said,



Where is Bin Laden, wobby?

Hmmm Krugman and the draft v Bush and Mission accomplished


Stick with it wobby it's still a sure loser.

Hmmm Krugman and the draft v Bush and Mission accomplished

LOL... what the fuck are you talking about?

What does Mission Accomplished have to do with anything? Krugrman and his predictions is the topic of this thread...

Now if you can show me that the draft did indeed come back, yeah I guess you might have a point... but it didn't did it?

Now if you can show me that the draft did indeed come back, yeah I guess you might have a point... but it didn't did it?


Too hard for you wobby, past claims are only revenant when you field them?


Slither off wobby god knows your Proven ALWAYS incapable of anything other than slithering.

Translation: Krugman was wrong once, ergo, he is wrong this time, and besides, I still can't think of any on-topic rebuttal.

Posted by nullifidian


Yeah, I'd say there is a damn strong chance he is wrong that we all start living like Europeans SOON.

My on topic rebuttal was to point out a past prediction of his that wasn't even in the same ballpark as close to being accurate to point out that maybe he isn't Edgar Cayce... sorry if you weren't able to grasp that... next time I'll see if Rogers will let me post pictures so that you can keep up.

"Krugrman and his predictions is the topic of this thread."

Translation: I would love to make Krugman's prediction about the draft the topic of this thread, rather than the actual topic of this thread.

My on topic rebuttal was to point out a past prediction


ROLFLMAO

Where are the WMD that McCain and Bush predicted would be found in Iraq?


And Hillary and loads of other Dems... want the quotes?

Using Robbie logic, anything that McCain says now is probably bullshit.


Ummm... big guy, if McCain and Bush and Hillary and a bunch of Democrats and Republicans started selling a war against, oh let's say, South Africa telling us they had WMD and were a threat to us... wouldn't you demand to see concrete proof this time based on how wrong they were last time?

rather than the actual topic of this thread.

Posted by nullifidian


Which is another Krugman prediction regarding a drastic change for the lives of everyday Americans... A review of things he has said in the past is more then fair.

That you and Zap can't even address that proves the point is valid.

Shouldn't you be saying "100 years" by now?

Ummm... big guy, if McCain and Bush and Hillary and a bunch of Democrats and Republicans started selling a war against, oh let's say, South Africa telling us they had WMD and were a threat to us... wouldn't you demand to see concrete proof this time based on how wrong they were last time?


Drinking wobby?

"And Hillary and loads of other Dems... want the quotes?"

Irrelevant. If they said WMD would be found in Iraq they're just as full of shit as McCain was and is.

Zap I'd ask what you mean by that, but honestly I could give a fuck what you think or have to say.

"That you and Zap can't even address that proves the point is valid."

Translation: still don't have anything to say other than Krugman was wrong a few years on an unrelated subject.

Null, why is it so wrong in your opinion to look at past predictions of Krugman's as whether or not we should take current ones seriuosly...

Do you honestly think the majority of Americans are going to be moving to more urban areas "soon?" Define soon? a year? 5 years... 10... 20? Sorry I think this is just another bullshit prediction of Krugmans...

Translation: still don't have anything to say other than Krugman was wrong a few years on an unrelated subject.

Posted by nullifidian


Quite a crutch you have there...

Zap I'd ask what you mean by that, but honestly I could give a fuck what you think or have to say.


Carry on wobbie, from my prospective you represent the absolute bottom rung of the respect ladder on the retort, bar none.

Slither on . . .

Carry on wobbie, from my prospective you represent the absolute bottom rung of the respect ladder on the retort, bar none

Clearly by the fact you started up a conversation with me...

bar none though... wow... I'm crushed... queer.

It was a pretty simple question null... Oh well... until next time douchebags.

I'll take Stranded in Suburbia over Holiday in Cambodia any day of the week. :)

Posted by IraqiBukkake

no doubt..

I heard tonight that Americans lived on 18 billion barrels of oil like 20 years ago--and we are living on the same today.

I haven't had a chance to check this claim out.

And oil is not scarce for the US--we have people who will not drill for it.

We need to get off the foreign oil--but won't drill off the coastline or ANWAR--or build refineris----we get most of our product from Canada..

What pisses me off about Bush is his asking the OPEC dipshit Saudi to produce more--when we are in Iraq--sitting on the biggest supply in the world!!

WTF!!

Murphy

"What pisses me off about Bush is his asking the OPEC dipshit Saudi to produce more--when we are in Iraq--sitting on the biggest supply in the world!!

WTF!!"

Well Murphy, we fought the war for oil but unfortunately we used the excuse of democracy and hell.... them damn Iraqis voted and decided they wanted their oil for themselves. Don't you just hate that. Next war make sure that the people we "save" are appropriately appreciative so that they will give our oil companies the PSAs they wanted and then they can charge us just as much for gas but we'll feel better about it.

Shush, Danni,


Murphy's one of those who was eager to invade Iraq 'cause he thought he'd get to fill er up for a buck seventy three.

Krugman is a tool who doesn't have a clue what he's talking about

POSTED BY ROB_THE_A_HOLE

You mean, you do not understand, what he is talking about?

This guy is correct.

When you insist on living 20-50 miles from where you work, you have a system that is very oil-demanding....The real fix will be getting people to abandon the burbs and move back into town. A big task, but the biggests mistake we've made since slavery was to abandon our cities and run away from all our problems, creating isolation and a splintering our social fabric. This is reflected in our self-centered politics....A big problem, with a difficult fix...

Could that be because because "what he's talking about" is unintelligible gibberish without any basis except his fantasies?

we fought the war for oil but unfortunately we used the excuse of democracy and hell.... them damn Iraqis voted and decided they wanted their oil for themselves.

Posted by danni

It was a war for oil, just not in the sense we think. It was a war for the PRICE of OIL. Even if Iraq wanted to help us out, Saudi Arabia would halt their production (they can do this for over a year without hurting their country), forcing the price to go even higher.

The best advice I can give is to invest in the Oil Companies, because the price isn't going down for a long while.

"The real fix will be getting people to abandon the burbs and move back into town..... This is reflected in our self-centered politics....A big problem, with a difficult fix..."

Posted by jonryker

This I totally agree with. But I live in a city.
And still have back yard envy.

There are a lot of reasons to move to the suburbs besides the low cost of gasoline. Bigger yards, more peace and quiet--singing birds instead of honking horns. If there is a mass exodus back to the cities, it will cause price huge price spikes in housing there, and whatever cost savings the buyers thought they would realize could disappear as soon as the papers are signed.

I'll keep driving, thanks much.

I'll keep driving, thanks much.

Posted by rightisright

Meaning, I'll keep polluting, and f*ck the rest of y'all.

Rightisright,

I agree gas prices are only a symptomatic problem of spreading out...the real problem is the lack of ability to come to concensus on important issues, because the burbs are such an isolating experience, both for those who go, and those who stay behind. It has been disastrous for our society....

the real problem is the lack of ability to come to concensus on important issues, because the burbs are such an isolating experience
Posted by jonryker

There will be more gates around those burbs before any of them consider to even learn the definition of the word consensus.

Hagbard,

That may be true. The burbs are really boring, though, and once kids are gone, baby-boomers are trying to move back in. Of course, they're scared to death of black people....

There are gates in the inner city as well, they just aren't visible....

Still, hopefully the expense of gas will spur a building of mass-transit which will serve to spur inflowing development as the interstates served to spur sprawl....

Still, hopefully...

Posted by jonryker

*yours and my fingers crossed.

This guy is correct.

When you insist on living 20-50 miles from where you work, you have a system that is very oil-demanding....The real fix will be getting people to abandon the burbs and move back into town. A big task, but the biggests mistake we've made since slavery was to abandon our cities and run away from all our problems, creating isolation and a splintering our social fabric. This is reflected in our self-centered politics....A big problem, with a difficult fix...

Posted by jonryker

let me know how that goes when we have a pandemic that strikes.. and it WILL strike. Nothing like people stacked together like chickens to help a virus destroy most of the major cities infrastructure.. Me I would prefer the country life and will take lower wages to live here. When the stench from the flu corpses get to large maybe your thinking will change too..perhaps I will buy a "uptown" condo at a discount after the pandemic.

Legio,

Pandemics only end when they kill too many people. It's not about proximity, really...Look how far apart all those people were who died around the globe in the Flu epidemics...The burbs are plenty crowded enough to spread pandemics, and with all that traffic moving all over, they'd probably spread it faster to the country as a whole than if they lived in the City.

Anyway, pandemics are overrated...they happen, kill a bunch of people, and in so doing, destroy their own ability to spread...the population bounces back...no big deal....

Me I would prefer the country life...
Posted by Legio

In other words, I'll keep polluting to my heart's content and the rest of you can go f*ck yourselves.

Stupid ass... we all would prefer the country life. It's beyond preference and has boiled down to necessity.

As usual, the DR has turned another important discussion into a black-and-white, liberal-vs.-conservative, with-us-or-agin us argument.

You don't have to choose between beautiful, trouble-free countryside and polluted, noisy, crime-filled city. The New Urbanist movement is responsible for a multitude of developments that are more akin to villages than the big, bloated cities that seem to strike so much fear into the masses. These villages are simply a fresh take on a proven concept -- and they're more earth- and human-friendly than the development model America has been following since WW II.

The key, IMHO, is making communities more self-sustaining. Buy local products whenever possible. Reduce car trips by living where your most common destinations are within walking/biking distance. Relax zoning laws to allow more mixed uses. Use more trains. Grow your own vegetables.

CBOB,

Agreed. The cars are a necessity for a suburban layout. In order to cut down on cars, the layout will need to become more localized....Hopefully, that'll happen...

Man I hope Krugman is right it will do wonders for my property value.

I live 5 min from work (yes in rush hour) I can bike there in 25 or so but with MS I don't bike as much as I would like to. There is a mega mall about 8 min away and a super wall-mart 8 min the other direction. Sams club, Target, Lows (both food and home improvement) are with in 5 min as well.

Not quite the burbs, but not quite inner city either its a nice compromise.

"Stupid ass... we all would prefer the country life. It's beyond preference and has boiled down to necessity."

Not me. I much prefer being close to down town, having access to theatres, clubs, restaurants, shopping, parks, work, etc. Of course though I don't really enjoy...gardening, yard work, fishing, hunting, etc.

"Not me. I much prefer being close to down town, having access to theatres, clubs, restaurants, shopping, parks, work, etc. Of course though I don't really enjoy...gardening, yard work, fishing, hunting, etc."

Amen. If some enjoy the "idiocy of rural life" they can have it.

Nulli,

Are you angry at some idiots? Just repeat after me...

YES WE CAN!

YES WE CAN!

YES WE CAN!

Now, feel better?

"YES WE CAN!

Now, feel better?"
Posted by jonryker


That's pretty stupid. Why would I chant that? You sure do come up with some moronic retorts. Your students need to be protected from you lest they suffer brain rot.

Nulli,

Well,

You called people who choose to live in the country idiots, which doesn't make sense unless you are one or anger is clouding your judgment.

Chanting, "YES WE CAN" seems to make a lot of other clueless, angry people happy, I've noticed. They mostly seem to be young, though, so I don't know whether that's your group or not....Still...just trying to help....

If some enjoy the "idiocy of rural life" they can have it.

Posted by nullifidian

Come now, nulli... there was no need...

forget the people, think about the planet. we forget sometimes when we stand on concrete all day long. there's value in both.

So isn't it great to live in a free country? You're free to decide whatever you want to do, and where you want to live. You want to live in a big city downtown? Go ahead. Prefer the suburbs? Fine. How about the rural areas? Good for you.

Unless, of course, know-it-alls like Hagbard have their way and force everyone to live in ant colonies while "thinking about the planet".

And by the way--just what is Krugman talking about? I've spent a lot of time in Berlin. Has he ever heard of Prenzlauer? Steglitz? Bernau? Erkner? Two million people live in the suburbs of Berlin, and it's every bit as heavily forested as the areas outside Atlanta or Charlotte.

Krugman should've used Munich or Frankfurt as an example, instead. At least it would demonstrate to the educated reader that he picked up a book or made a phone call or two before sitting down in front of his typewriter.

RiR Charlotte is heavily forested in the city too. You only have to get 1/2 mile out of uptown and the trees start.

Beautiful city, too bad the people are insane. Not really but it sure doesn't have the normal southern pace and every time I have to drive it is almost enough to cause serious road rage, I am suprised there is not more traffic related violence.

Of course one of my friends from west texas thinks the same thing about the pace here so I guess everything is relative.