A certain amount of PSTD was gonna happen in this unjust, illegal, immoral, uneccessary and counter-productive "war" in Iraq.

House to house fighting, large numbers of civilian casualties, urban guerrilla warfare, no clear aims, no real plan of action beyond creating a clusterfark that was gonna "justify" continuing the occupation etc etc.

The stop-loss fark up and the calling up and over-utilisation of the National Guardsmen also added to this tragedy.

Ultimately, the man who pulled the trigger here is responsible for his own actions but that sed?

Bush's Fault. (TM)

See also: Co-President Cheney.

Those two (and their cretinous cronies) belong not in power but in jail.

RIP.

Be Well.

PUD:

Murdering your brother and then yourself is NOT:
1. The fault of Bush/Cheney
2. Part of a conspiracy
3. Due to understaffing of mental health counselors
4. Caused by socio-economic factors

This guy had more going on than doing combat duty in Iraq.

Murdering your brother and then yourself is EVIL.

Before you folks start to chat about PTSD you need to go study what it is and what causes it. The condition can be treated, however i doubt that any of you would consider the methods that work conventional or even western, sory for the mans loss of life to bad he had to take his bro with him. a quick look into his life might find out why he had to take his anger out on his brother.

Murdering your brother and then yourself is NOT:
1. The fault of Bush/Cheney
2. Part of a conspiracy
3. Due to understaffing of mental health counselors
4. Caused by socio-economic factors

Posted by asswipe at 2008-05-17 10:46 PM

You Do Not Have A Clue Period !

How Many Years Did You Serve In The Military And How Many Combat Tours ?

We Need More NEOCONs Like You Serving, Are You 42 Years Of Age Or Younger ? If So Sign Up Or You Are A Pussy Chicken Hawk !!

Because Being Sent Over And Over Again Is Something That Has Never Been Done In US History Not Even In WWII. There Has Never Been Multiple 15 Month Required Combat Tours Ever!

-Sarge

Spud You Are 100% Correct !!

-Sarge

some guys will do anything to embarrass Bush.

Spud You Are 100% Correct !!

-Sarge

Yea, a canadian that never served a second in the military sure knows what he is talking about.

Too bad we don't live in the 100% perfect, lilacs everywhere world a few ignorant people think is actually possible.

Requiescat In Pace, dudes

How Many Years Did You Serve In The Military And How Many Combat Tours

6 years active duty, technically 1 combat arena (google Mayaguez incident, USS Holt's involvement) though I am embarrased to say it was that. I personally saw nothing that was near combat

However, it is much closer to combat than some other retorters on this thread. Do I have right to speak, your highness? Or does it depend on what I have to say and not really my military worthiness?

Sarge, I would be willing to bet everything I have that only .001% of military vets went through what I have had to go through with the VA...And I have ever reason to be bitter and hateful against the VA for putting me through it, but I'm not....

Is the system fucked up? Hell yea.

Am I ready to toss America down the drain because of it?

HELL NO.

I pulled myself up by my boot straps and went to work.

I'm disabled, but I'm not dead, and I would do what I did again. Despite the pain, physical and mental, I've felt since my service.

I love my counrty, I know that despite it's faults it's the best counrty on earth and well worth the sacrifice I've made.

I love my counrty, I know that despite it's faults it's the best counrty on earth and well worth the sacrifice I've made.

I don't know if it can be said any better.

Thanks for your sacrifices, dawg. I for one appreciate you.

Do I have right to speak, your highness? Or does it depend on what I have to say and not really my military worthiness?

Posted by goatman at 2008-05-18 12:03 AM

There Is Are A Couple Of Sayings Never Judge A Man Until You Have Walk 100 Miles In His Shoes And You Have To Talk The Talk You Must Walk The Walk.

I've Sevred In Combat Seen Buds Ripped To Part With Thier Blood Covering Me, So Until You Have To Try To Seal A Sucking Chest Wound With A T- Shirt, 50 Lbs Tubular Cord And Torn Milk Box You'll Never Know.

So I Will Put My 25 Years Against Any Of You At Anytime Of The Day 24/7.

-Sarge

Thanks Goatie. I never think of my time in the army like this until I am in here and it's brought out in defense of country.

Thank you for your service as well.

I love my counrty, I know that despite it's faults it's the best counrty on earth and well worth the sacrifice I've made.

Posted by dawgpound at 2008-05-18 12:13 AM | Reply

I Fail To See Anyone Trying To Through America Anywhere, I Love America And Served and Defended Her For 25 Years, My Issue Is Not Giving US Troops 110% In Support Period !

The System Is Fucked Guys Are Having Issues That Are Not Being Delt With Correctly, When Thousands Of Troops Are Sent Back For Combat Tours When They Have Not Been Deemed "Fit" For Combat That Is Wrong from The Word Go.

Sending Troops For Multiple 15 Month Tours Is Wrong, The Planing For This War Was Wrong And It Is Bush's Fault Period !!

Never In History Have Troops Been Sent On 15 Month Tours For 4 Times And I Mean Ever !

-Sarge

Sarge: So it appears since you have far more combat experience than anyone else on this thread, we should all shut up -- especially those who never served, right? Please correct me if I misjudge your opinion here. Your 11:43 leaves me with the distinct impression that only those who have served in combat have the right to speak their mind on this subject.

BTW, as I appreciate what dawg sacrificed for his country, I also appreciate the sacrifices you made too, sarge. They are far more than the ones I made. Thank you.

AGREE, Hang in there Dogpound from a 21 year Vet.

Your 11:43 leaves me with the distinct impression that only those who have served in combat have the right to speak their mind on this subject.

Posted by goatman at 2008-05-18 12:29 AM

No That Is Not What I'm Saying At All But To make This Into A "Non" Issue Is Wrong With Out Looking At The Entire Issue.

1.The Military Is Too Small (SECDEF) Fault

2. OIF Was Piss Poorly Planned

3. When A Problem Is Identified Nothing But Excuses And Conject Come Forward Not Corrections

4. It Is All To Easy To Say Suck It Up When You Do Not Have To Suffer The Pit Falls

5. I Train Troops Going And Coming Back from Iraq Everyday And They Are Not Getting Thier Due

So Goat My Point Is Things Must Be Done Better

Never Have So Many Owed So Much To So Few

-WC

Thank You For All Your Time Serving In The Worlds Greatest Naval Force !

-Sarge

Dawgpound,

I wish you all the Best and I hope and pray your future will be fruitful. You have served your country well and we are all proud if you.

-Sarge

"Of"

-Sarge

Sarge, you already know my story and I know yours.

I just refuse to blame Bush for my plight, just like I refused to blame Clinton before him.

The system needs to be fixed, on that we agree.

But as vets we receieve far more benefits then any nation in the history of the world.

Despite our broken system.

I wish I could wake up some morning without pain, but I can't.

But I haven't quit living, and I have a great career now despite my crushed legs.

I can still walk and that is more then I can say for many of our brothers.

I weep for their loss everyday.

I got the GI Bill which I am utilizing right now. I bought a home with a VA home loan. The government isn't perfect but it did help me out some.

What up Messiah?

Same here. GI bill provided me free money while I took night courses. Used the VA home loan to purchase my first two homes with no money down. But those bennies pale to the education I got in the service. That is what has had the biggest influence on my life.

I only have 6 years and TFG / Panama under my belt and I was 1 sympton short of carrying the diagnosis of PTSD after coming back. I cracked about 6 months after serving on float for 24+ months including another 9 after returning to Schwab from the first gulf war. Luckily I found someone that got me to quit going to the 'therapy' sessions as they were causing more problems than they helped. I know what it's like to go to the edge and want to take the world with you - it's a choice. HE made the wrong one... Now, to the politicians - not one of them is worth the sweat from one Citizen Soldier. Yet we still put them back year, after year, after year. It won't change because America is scared of change - Dem and Rep alike. Obama/Clinton/McCain - there's no difference in them and what does it matter anyway unless congress and the senate change... Go back to your complacent lives America.

BTW, thanks to ALL of those who have served... Goat / Sarge / Dawg

not much Dawg. Just relaxing on a sat night.

On this topic. I don't discount PTSD but you have to think there was some preexisting things that triggered this. Most guys might off themselves but I doubt they would off their brother.

Interesting thought Messiah.

Preexisting conditons are very likely with PTSD, the entrence critiria for military has been relaxed in recent years. It could be a factor.

So who are you picking to win the Ultimate fighter contest this season?

Most guys might off themselves but I doubt they would off their brother.

good point. Hard to blame that on PTSD

Dawg CB Dollaway. Know him personally from when I was a summer camp counselor. nice kid back then and was a very good wrestler.

Goatman,

Man, are a sarcastic bastard or what? Sarge is expressing that the troops are being abused by endless rotations, which have no precedent in history. And he is 100% correct. Chicken Hawk Bush and Draft Dodger Cheney just don't give a damn. But even McBush will give a damn--never mind the Dems.

Sarge,

If McBush gets elected and continues this endless war, God forbid, hopefully your issue is addressed as follows:

Voluntary military force? GOOD-BYE. Let the DRAFT begin! And long fucking overdue. All those registered with the selective service? Pucker up your asses, else head for the Canuck border, because your name is IN THE HAT!

How grand it would be to see some of these hard asses on DR instantly turn into shivering pussies when it's their asses in a Humvee patrol, wondering when and if they will hit an EFP. Maybe these chickenshits wouldn't mock soldiers with PSTD when their sanctimonious asses may end up in the warzone.

And of course, there is Chris who showed me the name of the soldier who died in my arms (something I never knew after 15 years), causing the worst crying jag of my life.

Thank you Chris.

I'm taking Matt Brown.

I wouldn't mind mandatory reserve service for all Americans for 2 years after high school. Many kids would benefit from the excellent job training and learning how to be an adult.

I healed from knowing who he was Chris, my thanks is genuine.

That is the most important moment I have spent at the Retort in the last 5 years.

military or civil service of some sort ought to be mandatory for everyone. The "the world owes me" attitude would not be so prevalent, I think. Besides, this country gives its citizens so much. Is it unreasonable to ask for some return? I feel not.

Matt has the most experience but I still have a gut feeling CB will win it all.

CB us a bad Mofo. That is for sure.

I am taking Forest in the upset, I love Rampage, but everyone loses..

DAWG


And of course, there is Chris who showed me the name of the soldier who died in my arms (something I never knew after 15 years), causing the worst crying jag of my life.

Thank you Chris.

Sorry if it caused you hurtful memories. Maybe having that crying jag did you some good and helped unleash some of the pain you had kept bottled up inside. Thanks for your service and taking care of our country for me and everyone else who have freedom today because of guys like you.

It's all good Chris.

Thanks for the links, chris. The first picture by Bill McKinley. I knew a Bill McKinley on the Holt, but I can't imagine how he got a picture of the Mayaguez in port. It must be a different Bill McKinley

I love Rampage, but is only human and Forest will see that.

He won't be afraid.

Goat I think some type of service should be a requirement for student loans. If you invest in America it will invest back in you.

Excellent idea. Make the loans interest free. America wins and the student wins in the obvious manner, but they both win by the learning experience gained by the student.

My error on link above - that Marine was not missing but was killed in 1975. Body was returned later.

"some guys will do anything to embarrass Bush."

Nobody has to do anything to embarrass Bush. Doing embarrassing stuff - with no help from anyone - is his one true talent.

Bush's war. Bush's fault.

At the very least a very significant contributing factor.

Never In History Have Troops Been Sent On 15 Month Tours For 4 Times And I Mean Ever !

-Sarge

Posted by Sarge




Sarge

Thank you for trying to get these guys to understand this is different from anything that this country has done before.

Shit, anybody could invade Granada or Panama and think of themselves as battle toughened. This is not the same thing.

120 US soldiers a week are commiting suicide.

The first casualty of war is the truth. Covering up this problem, and illegal spent uranium poisoning is just business as usual for BushCo and the Pentagon.

Bush routinely threatens to veto GI benefits, since his first objective is a balanced budget.

Thanks to all of you that have served.. People seem to walk away from combat in one of 3 conditions.

1) Ultra patriotic: A psychosis that result from believing that everything they did was right and worthwhile.
2) Psychotic: Batshit crazy/suicidal.
3) PTSD: Treatable if the VA cares enough to deal with it, or if the soldier has enough money for independent treatment..

My brother-in-law, whom I am very close to, fought on the front lines of Desert Storm. He was apparently near a chemical weapons explosion and came back with "Gulf War Syndrome" in addition to the mental effects of personally killing many people. I am sure you remember that back then the government denied "Gulf War Syndrome", and hence, he was unable to get treated for it. He did undergo 5 years of counseling to get over the mental aspects. After 10 years, he is totally fine mentally and physically, but he paid a huge price...

Most Americans only consider our losses in terms of dead and injured, but there is a whole other group of losses that aren't counted.. The mentally injured. This war is producing incredible numbers of them, particularly because of the number of tours they are serving.

It is unfortunate that, once again, our foreign policy is killing so many and leaving many of the rest with longterm physical and mental problems. It is so unnecessary.

I love Rampage, but is only human and Forest will see that.

I am a huge Forest fan, but Rampage is going to be too tough for him.

I know a guy that trains with Rampage and he is amazing, but apparently not good enough for the UFC (yet?)..

Honestly,

I never gave a thought to PTSD. Where I was in afghanistan, we werent under fire that much. But when we were, it was loud and short. Here back at bragg, they are always dropping bombs at the tank and artillery range. It seems so close, it rocks the house. In afghanistan, when we were under rocket attack, we ran out of our B-huts, usually into a bunker made next to our B-hut. But after a while, I could start judging how close the rockets were hitting, so I rarely got out of bed. But an explosion here on FT. Bragg was so strong a few nights ago, It took me back to afghan, and I found myself on the floor. It startled my wife and dog, and left me with my heart pounding, checking my shorts as I did in afghanistan. Just going back to those times when I was scared shitless, I can only imagine someone who has done multiple tours of Iraq, all of them in a convoy, having to be on point for twelve hours of every day you are in a combat zone. Riding in a convoy is the scariest thing I have ever done. You are always looking at the sides of the road, thinking, "what is that?". It can work on your nerves. Knowing there were snipers in the mountains of afghanistan worked on my nerves a bit, it can get very scary in war. I now understand PTSD and how someone can get it, but I must admit, until I was actually in a combat zone, I really didnt understand. I'm sorry about this guy, but the burden of his brother's death remains on him.

PTSD, Agent Orange, Gulf War Syndrome, they don't want to hear about it. Just sit down and shut up while the fat cats get set to send forth another generation. When will they think up another diagnosis for traumatic amputations?
Have some pity please. Even the Prez. gave up golf.

*****I love my counrty, I know that despite it's faults it's the best counrty on earth and well worth the sacrifice I've made.
Posted by dawgpound*****

......we all love our country.......

......but thinking that it is the "best country on earth" and can do no wrong, is the kind of blind nationalism that leads people to co-operate with criminals draped in the flag.....

.......America stopped being the "best" in anything some time ago, and until we recognize that, we will not be able to work on making America better.......

****Murdering your brother and then yourself is NOT:
1. The fault of Bush/Cheney
Asswipe ******

......yes......it is their fault.......

.....just like WW2 was the fault of Hitler and his Nazi gang.....this criminal war is the responsibility of Bush, Cheney, Rove, Rumsfeld and their criminal gang......

.......and like the Nazis, perhaps we will see the prosecution of Bush's criminal gang also.....

Cnemo,

The Prez is on tape golfing, fishing, strumming...when he said he gave it up out of respect for the troops.

More LIES, from our moronic, chickenhawk President.