in truth, those arent wars. They are land and resource grabs.

This is a great policy for the military-industrial complex and the Halliburtons and Blackwaters of this world but not for taxpayers and especially not for the grunts on the front line.

Ask Israel how occupying the West Bank is working out. Ask the Russians how occupying Afghanistan worked out. Ask Robert McNamara about Vietnam.
Ask anybody but an American right wing extremist how the occupation of Iraq is going.

Speak softly and carry a big stick, use the military as a last resort not the first one. Oh and by the way, don't elect anyone like Bush as President and give him a rubber-stamp Congress at the same time.

War without end.
Amen.
~Dick "Dick" Cheney

in truth, those arent wars. They are land and resource grabs.

Posted by Georgeisadrunk

Yeah, and your point is? Over 6.5 billion people on this planet, there's bound to be some of that.

Libs like Obama believe we should surrender and talk to our enemies. In the words of that great philosopher Rodney King, "Why can't we all get along?"

Over 6.5 billion people on this planet, there's bound to be some of that.

Let me know when some other country tries to invade us for our maple trees.

Otherwise, you are defending unilateral American imperialism. That never works out for anyone.

Fwthom -

Ms. Brooks says it's time for you to bring in all the attendance slips and get back to class.

In the words of that great philosopher Rodney King, "Why can't we all get along?"

Well, why can't we?

NESSY POO,

Because Muslims want to kill you, take your stuff, and force your children to convert.

They are land and resource grabs.

Posted by Georgeisadrunk

Yeah, and your point is?

So you see nothing wrong with invading a sovereign nation to steal it's resources?

How quaint.

There are several problems with doing this, numerous examples of how this has failed in the 20th century not to mention the immorality of doing so.

Because Muslims want to kill you, take your stuff, and force your children to convert.

Posted by fwthom


Spoken like a true pants pissing sheep.

Spoken like a true pants pissing sheep.


Actually, his comment was accurate when applied to 10-15% of the world's Muslims.


However, his comment came off as being applied to ALL Muslims, so your point is only mitigated, not shot-down.

"Islam is Peace."
~George W. "You Can Call Me Dubbya" Bush

Because Muslims want to kill you, take your stuff, and force your children to convert.

Posted by fwthom

Your re-education is now complete fwthom, you may go now. And here, have some duct tape

muslims want to kill you if you are stealing their land. Leave them alone and they will leave you alone. Problem is we have a nut ball in the white house that feels like all of the land in the world is his, they just fly the wrong flsg

Socialistas,

Whether or not it is imperialist depends upon how you administer the places you fight in. If you are in fact, simply removing Islamofascists and helping fledlging democratic governments to form up, while perhaps leaving a tripwire force behind to deter further attempts against said democracy, then that is clearly different than simply taking over territory, taking what you want, and running the place yourself, as all of Europe and even the USA did in the 18th and 19th century to AFrica and Asia.

If you are going to prevent Islamofascism from taking over, you have to ensure that democracies are in place, which will prevent demand for Islamofascist despair.

This is truly a great, transformative idea. It is the reason Iraq was chosen first. Gates is simply pointing out that we don't currently have an army designed to do it. That is obvious.

It doesn't mean we get to wait until we do to start the preventing. Political stoolies like Powell have never been able to grasp this notion, and many of the dinosaurs in the Pentagon, along with many fossil Generals, can't grasp it and have resisted.

Still, this is the correct approach and indeed the only approach to deterring the expansion of Islamofascism and eventually eliminating the demand for it. This is ultimately a political struggle, but with the Islamofascists penchant for simplistic violence, they must first be confronted in that vein before these horrible places are safe enough to launch democratic governments.

Those who don't see this are simply behind the times. It is not surprising that those people are socialists....socialists have always been behind the times, because they fundamentally misunderstand human nature.

Those who believe we can just hide over here and leave them alone and we'll be ok are the same luddites who have always resisted US involvement "overseas", as if this were a meaninful barrier to terrorists with suitcase nukes. We are part of the world, whether we like it or not, and it is in our and everyone's interest that that world is dominated by democracies, not Islamofascist theocracies...It's that simple....Not easy, but simple.

muslims want to kill you if you are stealing their land. Leave them alone and they will leave you alone. Problem is we have a nut ball in the white house that feels like all of the land in the world is his, they just fly the wrong flsg

Posted by Georgeisadrunk

So I guess sence France was once occupied by the moores it's ok for them to take over now and riot in the streets. Just because someone is wrong in one area doesn't mean they're wrong accross the board.

Posted by jonryker at 2008-05-08 10:18 AM

What a heaping, steaming pile of NeoCon bullshit.

Because Muslims want to kill you, take your stuff, and force your children to convert.

Posted by fwthom

Your re-education is now complete fwthom, you may go now. And here, have some duct tape

If you're short on plastic, thom, just stick your head in a walmart bag and tape it around your neck.

"sence France was once occupied by the moores"

Michael Moore is French?

Sorry, Moors without the E.

no offense stir. you do not know what you are talking about

Doc,

Good one! You look smarter with every post...Only, you forgot fascist, nazi, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah...

Do you actually have a point, or just trotting out the same old labels again, because, really, we can just assume you're gonna say those things.

Northguy,

There is both a long a recent history of Muslims killing people, taking their stuff, and forcing their children to convert or die. Christianity used to do this too, but has stopped with that tactic. The facts, however, are on the side of FWTHOM, although that probably won't concern you at all.

jon, we know that your facts are those that spill out of your personal belief system. those are unfactual facts.

None taken. It's not just the Muslims but the entire tird world that is trying to move in to the modern world. Like little children who aren't given what they want don't understand why other people have and they don't. They throw tantrums and resort to breaking things first. And they will take it if they are not stopped.

George,

Which facts would you be referring to?

what is your definiton of islamofaschism? Democracies are the solution ? The U S is opposed to Hammas, they were democratically elected. Chavez in Ven was democratically elected. and on and on and on

stir, I dont think you get it. Look at your last post and then tell me why the U S invaded iraq?

This "new" concept in fighting wars is truly unique. You go in hell bent to win but without a plan to really do it. Some will call this more defeatist than anything else. Soon a name for such out-of-the-box thinking will be found. Something about "Shrubbies Follies" or something like that.

W will like this new plan-of-action-NONE.

Ain't it amazing the new American way of war!!!

You can't lose what will never end.

You can't lose what will never end.

Posted by keith204

Deserves Posting Twice.

stir, I dont think you get it. Look at your last post and then tell me why the U S invaded iraq?

The two issues are only loosely related. The invasion of iraq is not a black and white issue. Congress AND Bush screwed up. But that doesn't let the muslims off the hook as a bunch of animals.

George,

There is no state for Hamas to be the governing body of, so that election doesn't hold meaning, any more than if I elected myself president of France.

It is highly debateable how democratically-elected Chavez was, but you don't see any Islamofascists coming out of there, do you, and you don't see us planted down there with an army.

You prevent the opportunity for despair to arise where there are legitimate democratically-elected governments. This is true simply because in a democracy, there is always a better way to provide for your family's future than to blow yourself up and, since you at least have an opportunity to make a living through work, you don't have to hate everybody else. Since you have some free choice, you don't have to see as evil other societies who subscribe to that. Where there is choice, there is never a hotbed for Islamofascism.

So, democracy is the key. Hopefully in the future as more of them sprout up, less force will be necessary. Right now, it's a little tough. However, it is the correct policy both for us and, ultimately, for the World.

Ironically, Islam used to understand this, and its initial expansion was very successful because they were tolerant of local cultures. They've forgotten this notion. It will be to their detriment.

and your definition of islamofascist is? Venezuela doesnt count? I guess that Gaza doesnt exist. The president of Iran wasnt elected. It would appear that your definition of democratic means if you like the winner. The president of Pakistan was elected? the saudi royal family was elected? Those last to are supposed to e friends. Could it be that your democracy theory just doesnt stand up? still waiting for that definition

George,

Islamofascist is anyone who claims that by blowing yourself up and taking civilians with you you can win a chunk of money for your family and go to heavan. Not a good recipe for World Peace or economic progress in the larger sense.

Actually, this is my point. Once those regimes you mention change over to democratically-elected ones, the Islamofascist calls for suicide will fall on deaf ears.

Gaza isn't a nation yet and therefore doesn't count. I was not implying that Venezuela didn't count, I was simply implying that it isn't really a problem, compared to the Middle East..

I thought it was nutbag Christians who want to kill you, take your stuff and convert your children?


That's what they said about Communism right?
They're out to get you, they must be stopped, endless war that's all you Neocons want.

You haven't learned the mistakes of the past, now go back to History class.

you forgot fascist, nazi, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah...
Posted by jonryker at 2008-05-08 10:40 AM

Au contrarire, I didn't forget anything. I characterized your post as "a heaping, steaming pile of NeoCon bullshit." If I thought what you'd written was fascist bullshit or Nazi bullshit, I'd have said so. But "NeoCon bullshit" is a more accurate description. The justification of invading countries to spread The Word could be Christian, Muslim, Mongol, Communist, Nazi, Fascist, just all kinds of bullshit. But your phrasing made it NeoCon bullshit. Comprende?

At least get your definitions right, girls. Stick with islamic extremists or terrorists, at least that's mostly right.
Because you read the repub talking points e-mail this morning, doesn't mean it's correct.

Fascism: a governmental system led by a dictator having complete power, forcibly suppressing opposition and criticism, regimenting all industry, commerce, etc., and emphasizing an aggressive nationalism and often racism.

There is no government and no dictator and no industry nor commerce. Just radical religious nuts who believe they go to heaven if they blow you up.

The exit strategy is victory. If you want to accept something less, well, that's what elections are for.

What was our exit strategy in the Second World War? Or in the Civil War? When you commit troops to combat, they had better be there for a reason important enough that victory is worth achieving, and the prospect of defeat intolerable.

"What was our exit strategy in the Second World War?"
Getting the other guy to surrender

"Or in the Civil War?"
Getting the other guy to surrender

Notice the pattern?

"The exit strategy is victory"

With respect to Bush's War that observation would be funny if it wasn't so sad.

So I guess sence France was once occupied by the moores it's ok for them to take over now and riot in the streets. Just because someone is wrong in one area doesn't mean they're wrong accross the board.

POSTED BY STIRSUMUP

It was Spain.

This "new" concept in fighting wars is truly unique. You go in hell bent to win but without a plan to really do it. Some will call this more defeatist than anything else. Soon a name for such out-of-the-box thinking will be found. Something about "Shrubbies Follies" or something like that.

W will like this new plan-of-action-NONE.

Ah, the followers could be calledl the "BushWarsie"

This is great for the MIC, and bad for everyone else.

It is the reason Iraq was chosen first.
By jonryker

Well-jon-What happened to "We invaded Iraq because they were going to attack us with WMDs"?

Frank,
Honesty is not the republicans strong suit...

Frank,

No, that's just what he said. Political expediency, and a political mistake both at the same time.

Doc,

Well, I wouldn't call spreading of democracy a religious movement, so your references don't make any more sense than your mindlessly-applied labels.

Frank,
Honesty is not the republicans strong suit...

Posted by evilpolock at 2008-05-08 03:00 PM


Allow me to inflict a lil reality for you, polock.

Honesty is not a human strong suit.

Obama = liar. Clinton = liar. McCain = liar Politician = liar

Doc,

Only a two-faced desk-general like Powell would have thought of starting a war with an "exit strategy" in mind. Well, he, Johnson, and Nixon. Do you know what "exiting" a war is.....DEFEAT. You don't exit wars, you win them, or you don't fight them at all.

The fact that you don't think we can beat a few thousand psychopaths who only exist because of oil funding from Islamofascist states just reveals that you have no idea how human beings work.

Islamofascists have a losing message in a democracy. That's why you never see them coming from there. It requires ignorance and hopelessness. The antidote: democracy...

Of course, if you'd rather whine about problems than fix them, I suppose you might find that notion impractical. In that, you're of the same mindset as those who didn't wish to fight Hitler, Mussolini, the Soviets, the Confederate South, or Napoleon.

"I wouldn't call spreading of democracy a religious movement"

Your post reflected the NeoCons' quasi-religious ferver about spreading democracy throughout the world. Same dynamic, different objects of worship.

Here, educate yourself:

"Honesty is not a human strong suit."

Speak for yourself, Kris P...unless you're a pol.


"Only a two-faced desk-general like Powell would have thought of starting a war with an "exit strategy" in mind. Well, he, Johnson, and Nixon. Do you know what "exiting" a war is.....DEFEAT. You don't exit wars, you win them, or you don't fight them at all."

Wow, Ryker, this is one of the stupidest posts you've ever made. Reagan believed we need an exit strategy before any war. Powell believes in. Yet you throw in with those cowards Bush and Cheney and say an exit strategy somehow equals defeat? You're a puke...honest.

Powell believes it, not in.

Powell's premise appears to be:

Can we win easily?

Do we know exactly what's going to happen in the future of this conflict and understand every outcome?

If we get it wrong, can we cover our ass and pretend we won?

Certainly the credo of a desk-commander, but not of practical value, since nobody knows how wars will go once they start, people do fight back, and if you're willing to leave, then there's a chance you'll LOSE, and then you can't cover your ass for that one....

What a stoolie!

Let's see...in this corner we have Colin Powell...Purple Heart, Soldier's Medal, Bronze Star...Chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff...developer of a well thought out doctrine designed to make sure that when this country goes to war it's for solid reasons, with the means and consequences carefully considered.

In this corner we have... JonRyker and the holy war without end for spreading democracy.

No contest.

Doc,

There you go, worshiping rank again. Well, shouldn't you be kissing W's ass, then? After all, he was Colon's boss....

Democracy is not a religion, and therefore the war would not be holy. Just practical. Not, perhaps, for an ambitious, but risk averse desk general, but for a more peaceful world...yes.

When you pick and choose your battles, you seldom would pick and choose Sadr Cities. Only a pack of neocon fools would do that with the military that existed in 2003. And guess what -- A pack of neocon fools did choose to go into a 5th Gen War with a 3rd Gen War capable military. Where were these guys' brains???

"There you go, worshiping rank again."

WTF are you yammering on about? Show me where I'm "worshiping rank." Because Colin Powell has credentials?

Obviously I think the Powell Doctrine makes sense. While I don't worship rank, I do have a sneaking sensation that while Powell has a pretty good idea about what he's talking about you, on the other hand, don't.

"Democracy is not a religion, and therefore the war would not be holy. Just practical."

I equated your neocon perspective with religous zeal. I included the terms "Christian, Muslim, Mongol, Communist, Nazi, Fascist" to reflect the idea of religious-type zeal.

Your neoconservatism is no different. It's got less to do with practicality than with ignorance.

Certainly the credo of a desk-commander, but not of practical value, since nobody knows how wars will go once they start, people do fight back, and if you're willing to leave, then there's a chance you'll LOSE, and then you can't cover your ass for that one...

That's simply idiotic. It's against everything that smart strategists have known for centuries. It's covered in "The Art of War." I"m stunned!

The lessons learned were applied in Desert Storm. Then Bush Amnesia and "I can do it better than Dad" set it. Stupid from the beginning. Doomed to fail - the only exit strategy planning was "no one tell me anything about post war planning or you're fired" followed by "Don't worry, we're lucky."

I think Ryker is actually Rumsfeld...Donny...c'mon out you old fool and identify yourself.

George W. Bush, 4/9/99:

"Victory means exit strategy, and it's important for the president to explain to us what the exit strategy is."

And on the specific need for a timetable, here's what Bush said then:

George W. Bush, 6/5/99


"I think it's also important for the president to lay out a timetable as to how long they will be involved and when they will be withdrawn."

Because Muslims want to kill you, take your stuff, and force your children to convert.

Posted by fwthom at 2008-05-08 09:48 AM

I am still waiting for them to try...for anyone to try...you can fly planes into building until the end of time and unless I happen to be in that building (i have greater odds of winning a lottery) then I think I don't really have anything to worry abut now do I there fwthom? And even that wouldn't have happened had the airlines and the FAA done their jobs as they had already done at EL AL.

Oh, and those videos and audios of Osama now those are really starting to scare me though...please make them stop!

Donnerboy,

You might be alive, but you wouldn't have a job, because solid economies are based on having a safe, predictable environment. Then again, you probably haven't had a job anyway, so that may explain your lack of concern for economic chaos. Here, let me make it simpler....When the economy goes in the tank, the GOVERNMENT gets less money, and YOU GET FEWER GOVERNMENT HANDOUTS....

There, does that help?

Northguy,

Why would this pronouncement be valuable? Did Roosevelt do this? Did Wilson? Did Lincoln? Did Washington? Did Mao Tse Tung? Did Cortez? Did Caesar? Did Hannibal? Did Ramesees II? Did anybody who ever won an important war EVER announce how long they were willing to fight? Did the VC? Did Lenin?

Of course, if your plan is to lose, then I suppose you can set a date to unilaterally quit, but then i don't know why you'd have started the thing in the first place....

"since nobody knows how wars will go once they start"

Right there is where y'all lose it. Yes there are people who know what will happen once wars start. They study, they learn, they know. Unfortunately the neocons did not want to listen to those people because they would have been told (as Bush Sr. said in his autobiography) that Iraq would be a quagmire.
Please don't pretend that just because the neocons were ignorant about the ME and the effects of war there that there were not people with the knowledge.
They existed then, they exist now, you have to be willing to listen to them though.
In a way it is the same shit as global warming, the neocon crowd doesn't want to believe the scientists so they pretend that no one really knows anything.
It is not surprising that conservatism has always been suspicious of intellectualism, too many of their ideas can't stand the scrutiny of those who know what they are talking about.

"Of course, if your plan is to lose, then I suppose you can set a date to unilaterally quit, but then i don't know why you'd have started the thing in the first place...."

You don't know why they started the thing in the first place????

OIL!!!!!

There, now you know.

"Yes there are people who know what will happen once wars start. They study, they learn, they know.

Posted by danni at 2008-05-08 06:45 PM"

You mean like the experts who were saying that Iraq would erupt into Shiite vs. Sunni violence, and that attacking Iraq would embolden Iran? They were just party poopers trying to piss on the military-industrial complex parade.

Wars without end make money without end for the war profiteers.

"Wars without end make money without end for the war profiteers.

Posted by CalifChris at 2008-05-08 07:03 PM"

When McAncient made his "100 years" comment, Brooks Brothers suits in the boardrooms of General Dynamics, Lockheed Martin, Halliburton, etc. were soiled with man juice.

Because Muslims want to kill you, take your stuff, and force your children to convert.

Posted by fwthom



This guy is just putting you on, folks - these aren't his real views.

Nobody is this stupid. Just ignore him.