Drudge Retort: Red Meat for Yellow Dogs

Over the past several years, the Union of Concerned Scientists has been performing an amazing public service: Surveying scientists, agency by federal agency, to determine how many report inappropriate political interference in their work. And so UCS has canvassed the Fish and Wildlife Service, the National Marine Fisheries Service, the Food and Drug Administration--and so on. In each case, the surveys have shown intolerable levels of political meddling, and collectively have documented the existence of hundreds of unhappy researchers across the government. But we were all waiting to hear about the agency that many have long suspected to harbor the worst problems -- the U.S. Environmental Protection Agency. The nonprofit group received responses from 1,600 EPA scientists, and found an "agency under siege from political pressures": 60 percent of respondents said they'd personally experienced political interference in their work in the past 5 years. Meanwhile, just over half of respondents -- 783, by number -- said they could not freely share their findings with the media.

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And this is a surprise, nope.

All one has to do is look at wall street and look at main street and one can see the convoluted aspect of how data and information is be manipulated to serve the money and politicians.

What regulatory agency is not scandal ridden and hoplessly comprimised?

Thanks W,
We knew you'd do it.

In each case, the surveys have shown intolerable levels of political meddling, and collectively have documented the existence of hundreds of unhappy researchers across the government. But we were all waiting to hear about the agency that many have long suspected to harbor the worst problems--the U.S. Environmental Protection Agency, once the crown jewel of the regulatory system, but now, under administrator Stephen Johnson, increasingly viewed as a scandal-ridden and hopelessly compromised tool of the White House.



What a shock! [sarcasm]

Heckuva a job Lil Bush.

I'll bet it has all happened in the last 7 years. The dems never put any pressure on anyone.

This is the unavoidable result of government-funded science, if unchecked by private research. All private research suffers the same corporate pressures, if unchecked by noncorporate scientists.

The key to scientific truth is to have those two check each other.

The Global Warming myth sprouted and was nourished by government science unchecked by private science. The result has been a disaster.

There are plenty of examples of corporate scientists being told to come up with certain results and fired if they refuse to do so.

The key is balance. In the environmental area, since there is next to no private science being done, the funding is overwhelmingly government-based, and the science has become politicized to the point of not being science.

Human nature. The key is to have a system set up to counteract this. AlGore is bypassing the system....He will fail in this ultimately, but for a bit, his 300 million dollar disinformation campaign will gain him some traction amongst scientific illiterates....who knows? Perhaps he funded this article....

Jon-your comment is simply too stupid to be commented on.

I do hope someone is paying you to make the Right look that stupid.

JR,

Are you saying you want Corporations and Government to continue corrupting science? Have you forgotten the two already operate in tandem to suppress inconvenient truths, killing people for money?

Tobacco, Lead and Mercury poisoning, Mining, Military aggression. Atheism and evolutionary truths are surpressed for Evangelical profits.

...but mommy, they did it too, maybe, I think. If not I will come up with another excuse for why the Commander in Chief isn't really responsible for anything, ever.

-Snippy


60 percent of respondents said they'd personally experienced political interference in their work in the past 5 years

Definitely Clinton's fault!



I'll bet it has all happened in the last 7 years. The dems never put any pressure on anyone.

Posted by Sniper



Please put that tired bullshit away. Even if you though that made it ok ("he did it, too"), you can't really believe that this admin didn't reach a new level of abuse in this area.

I have family and friends working as teachers, as soldiers, as doctors, as engineers--they all say the same thing. ALL feel political pressure because of lawsuits, of corporate or government culture, of labor rules and regulations.

If 700 of these scientists think they would be able to freely share with the media whatever they care to talk about under an Obama administration, they're having a crack dream. They work in a bureaucracy, and that's just the way things are. If they don't like it, it's a little bit better in the private sector. Of course, you don't have the same kind of job security you've got working a government job.

THese EPA entrenched liberal global warming wackos should be muzzled.

you can't really believe that this admin didn't reach a new level of abuse in this area.

Posted by midiman


Blind partisanship allows him to beleive anything this administration tells him.

I am sure it was different during the clinton administration. It is standard govenemnt practice.

In the environmental area, since there is next to no private science being done, the funding is overwhelmingly government-based, and the science has become politicized to the point of not being science.

I'd really like to see your source for this data.

I've worked in environmental consulting for many, many, years. The vast majority of environmental work is performed by the private sector. Yes, a great deal of pure research is performed at universities, but this money pails in comparison to how much private work is being done.

The federal government also out sources most of their environmental work to private companies (my firm does a great deal of work for the Army Corps, HUD, DOT, FCC, etc.). Federal and state agencies then provide oversight to private companies for this work. They're the ones that review our field work and reports.

Unfortunately, the problem mentioned in this article is also rampant for many states. For example, in Appalachia, coal companies have a great interest in making sure their projects go through w/out interruption. They often "encourage" state governments to pressure the DEP (which act as lead agency in enforcing EPA requirements) to rubber stamp assessment reports. When you take the teeth from an oversight agency, drastically cut its funding, or politicize it, it just encourages very shoddy work in the private sector. It also completely negates any potential cost savings by privatizing.

This problem is pretty universal among many fields; in order for privatization to truly save money, regulatory agencies need the funding and independence to enforces their own regulations.

According to an email Sniper got, Clinton murdered 7000 government scientists while he was in office.

Are you saying you want ....... Government to continue corrupting science?

Posted by nutcase

You mean like the global warming and C02 thing? Ya I do want them to quit.

"in order for privatization to truly save money"

you have to cut wages, benefits and employees to insure profits for stockholders. Privatization simply doesn't work. Time after time we find that privatization is nothing more than cronyism.

90% of statistics can be manipulated to say anything, 50% of the time

90% of statistics can be manipulated to say anything, 50% of the time

Unfortunately, the problem mentioned in this article is also rampant for many states. For example, in Appalachia, coal companies have a great interest in making sure their projects go through w/out interruption. They often "encourage" state governments to pressure the DEP (which act as lead agency in enforcing EPA requirements) to rubber stamp assessment reports. When you take the teeth from an oversight agency, drastically cut its funding, or politicize it, it just encourages very shoddy work in the private sector. It also completely negates any potential cost savings by privatizing.
This problem is pretty universal among many fields; in order for privatization to truly save money, regulatory agencies need the funding and independence to enforces their own regulations.
Posted by katieberry at 2008-05-08 12:34 PM


Hi there, it's nice to see someone who might be able to answer this question for me.

I've attempted (with little success) to find any information regarding the 33% of pre-highschool children and the increase in asthma-related symptoms.

Here in Portland Oregon there are 30 DEQ "deputies", rotated daily. Insane, I know but I've recorded a number of conversations with several who confirm this strange activity, but have no explanation why. Apparently these "deputies" are in charge of overall air shed data collection and approving or allowing pollutants based on Federal guidelines, rather than Oregon standards. They have no idea what contrails are let alone what "chemtrails" might be, even on a very hot, heavily sprayed day where anyone looking at the sky are able to point them out directly - they have no idea what to make of the question.

We have perpetual scandals coming from our DEQ, such as permitting carcinogenic foam insulation to substandard construction materials, fuels, emissions, pollen and airborne wastes.

From what I can determine these people may not even be Oregonians, many don't know the physical layout of the territories they supposedly over watch data for.

Imo, this is a purposeful concerted elimination of investigations as well as the erosion of public health.

Is it common practice to privatize air & water shed data collection or management?

"Privatization simply doesn't work. Time after time we find that privatization is nothing more than cronyism."
posted by DANNI

And government funded is nothing more than indoctrination.

They have no idea what contrails are let alone what "chemtrails" might be, even on a very hot, heavily sprayed day where anyone looking at the sky are able to point them out directly - they have no idea what to make of the question.

Posted by redlightrobot at 2008-05-08 02:18 PM


Contrails are made of Dihydrogen Monoxide (DHMO).

"Privatization simply doesn't work. Time after time we find that privatization is nothing more than cronyism."
posted by DANNI

And government funded is nothing more than indoctrination.
Posted by Pinkie at 2008-05-08 02:27 PM


DUDE, than what would you call government de-funding? Absolution? Puh-leeze, back into the stinky with you, Pinky.

Look, these people are supported by the taxpayers of the USA. We pay their salaries. They are unselected civil servants. They may be scientist buy if they receive funding from the taxpayers they need to answer to the taxpayers. The elected officials in our country are supposed to be our representatives. So if some 32,500 public employee is making rules that directly effect the public they need to answer to the public.

Funding has to come from somewhere. You can have seven studies on the same thing and have seven different results, but all of them will favor the funder.

If you have government fund a project, the results will come out to give government more power. If it is funded by an agriculture corporation, the results will warrant more subsidies. If the study is funded by a catholic organization, the results will show ungodliness. If the study is funded by GE, we're all screwed.

Ironically, we actually had a study here in New Mexico on Title Insurance that was funded by the government and performed by UNM. They said TI was too expensive here and consumers are getting ripped off. The study found otherwise, saying that we protect the lower class, but charge more to the rich. The local gov is all pissed off and still wants to be charging the poor "their fair share." They are willing to hurt the lower class to say they cracked down on the industry and garner a few more votes.

"Dihydrogen Monoxide (DHMO)."

Posted by Roy_Batty

Ban it immediately!

www.petitiononline.com

Contrails are made of Dihydrogen Monoxide (DHMO).
Posted by Roy_Batty at 2008-05-08 02:30 PM


Okay. Way to shut that avenue of observable, quantifiable data off. Remember this conversation when it is confirmed that chemtrails are not H2O, but a rather insidious tool (not unlike yourself apparently).

You must be a pilot, right?

Nutcase, Northguy,

What I'm simply saying is that neither governmnets nor corporations give funding with no agenda. The balance view is to get both and figure out the truth...like we try to do with other politicized issues.

In the case of environmental science, particularly in the realm of global climate, the vast majority of funding is government-based. That's a simple fact, because not many private corporations have figured out a way to make money off of erroneous climate projections. The feds and the UN have.

Before you call me stupid, please understand that I, unlike you, have worked science as a corporate researcher on both private and government projects. I've also taught science and worked with government researchers in the coarse of doing that.

So, put your heads back up your asses and save your tripe for the Greenie zombies.

Even if you though that made it ok ("he did it, too"), you can't really believe that this admin didn't reach a new level of abuse in this area.

Posted by midiman at 2008-05-08 12:02 PM | Reply

It's not a matter of "he did it first!"

It's a matter of "This is how the world is." All your Faux indignation is dishonest if you are aware of reality, and naive if you are not.

Just like the thread last week about the Pentagon encouraging retired officers to be talking heads. How stupid are you if you cannot discern what's going on?

If you're going to be shocked and dismayed by this stuff then you should not be allowed to drive or have a bank account. You're too stoopid and a menace to the rest of us.

But, any excuse to say the same old shit. One more tedious example of "Bush Bad!!!"

Before you call me stupid, please understand that I, unlike you, have worked science as a corporate researcher on both private and government projects. I've also taught science and worked with government researchers in the coarse of doing that.
So, put your heads back up your asses and save your tripe for the Greenie zombies.
Posted by jonryker at 2008-05-08 02:56 PM


When you call interested parties "greenie zombies" I certainly question you and your contractors motives, particularly with "scientific" credentials backing your opinions.

Did you predict climate impact or help define methods of questionable practice? Did you get this work because of the EPA de-funding - also, did your models use EPA data or disprove it?

Redlight,

I was not involved with the EPA, but the FDA.

But, in greenie zombies I was referencing the Global Warming Hoax, which has been scientifically perpetuated almost entirely by government-funded "research". Utter nonsense. Accepting this nonsense requires no knowledge of Earth's climatological history, no understanding of plant biology, and no knowledge of, but a thorough acceptance of, erroneous computer climate simulations. That, the UN mouthpiece and a 300 million dollar ad campaign from AlGore....Oh yes, and a total ignorance of human nature....Thus Greenie Zombies....

If nothing else, a little economics would have helped. When's the last time good science required a 300 million dollar ad campaign to "sell" it?

It is the intent of republicans in general, and W's
administration in particularly to fill the top positions in all federal regulatory agencies with do nothing leadership...think FEMA...then rant about 'government cant solve any problems'.

Mr Heckofajob Brownie is but one example. FDA is another, We didnt have lead paint all over kids toys under Clinton.

Kinda like shooting the regulatory agencies in the knee and then pointing and ranting "see, I told ya he cant dance".

Have you seen the footage of W praising Clinton Administration for the professionalism of FEMA?

I think you have.

What I'm simply saying is that neither governmnets nor corporations give funding with no agenda.

The governments agenda is serving the public. The corporate agenda is maximizing the bottom line. Are you too clueless to know the difference?

"entirely by government-funded "research"

Callendar did it on his own dime, actually.
As did Arrhenius.

1896 Svante Arrhenius, "On the Influence of Carbonic Acid in the Air Upon the Temperature of the Ground." Philosophical Magazine 41: 237-76.

1938 G.S. Callendar, "The Artificial Production of Carbon Dioxide and Its Influence on Climate." Quarterly J. Royal Meteorological Society 64: 223-40.

"Privatization simply doesn't work. Time after time we find that privatization is nothing more than cronyism."
posted by DANNI

And government funded is nothing more than indoctrination.
Posted by Pinkie at 2008-05-08 02:27 PM

"DUDE, than what would you call government de-funding? Absolution? Puh-leeze, back into the stinky with you, Pinky."
posted by ROBOT

I guess I should have written my thoughts out better.

JUST government funded is indoctrination. Kind of like JUST privatization in cronyism (I didn't see you jump on danni for that "absolute" statement). We need to have a balance of government and privatization in all facets of life, business, science and everything else we argue about. Forgive me for trying to find the middle ground.

Adolph Hitler, Man of the Year
Jan. 2, 1939

www.time.com

And inside:
"A group of Soviet meteorologists, who have recorded Arctic temperatures for a decade, reported last fortnight that the Arctic is warmer. They are backed up by Harald Ulrik Sverdrup, onetime chief of Explorer Roald Amundsen's scientific staff, now head of the Scripps Institution of Oceanography in California, who found Arctic sea water warmer in 1931 than it was in 1918. "

www.time.com

Privatization simply doesn't work. Time after time we find that privatization is nothing more than cronyism.

Posted by danni

You are right, look what it did to the USSR in the late 80s. Private industry killed that government.

The planet's average temperature has gone up another degree F since 1939.

data.giss.nasa.gov

"The governments agenda is serving the public"
posted by northguy

Please tell me you are not truly that nieve. That is it's "mission statement" if you will, but they strayed from this purpose long ago.

privatization is nothing more than cronyism.

Posted by danni

Thats true if you have to get permission from a non-producer to produce something. Most of the bad you see here in the US is from government trying to fix something that isn't broke. Why can't you see that government officials are on a power trip and don't give a shit about your split tail.

Northguy,

So, that means that since George Bush is the president and head of the government, that his agenda is to "serve the public"?

Was Hitler "serving the public"?

Was Stalin "serving the public"?

Was Castro "serving the public"?

Was Napoleon "serving the public"?

Was Henry VIII "serving the public"?

Was Jefferson Davis "serving the public"?

Was Woody Wilson "serving the public"?

Was Joe McCarthy "servign the public"?

Was Dick Nixon "serving the public"?

Was John McNamara "serving the public"?

Was Lyndon Johnson "serving the public"?

Was Marion Berry "serving the public"?

Danni,

Privatization has never worked? Isn't this internet connection working?

Regardless of whether it's Bush's fault, this corruption happened on his watch. The buck stops where? The desk of the President of the United States.


Isn't this internet connection working?

Posted by jonryker


Maybe her bullshit filter is on.

access-list inside extended permit bullshit captain_ryker danni more_bullshit

That should do the trick.


Redlight,
I was not involved with the EPA, but the FDA.
But, in greenie zombies I was referencing the Global Warming Hoax, which has been scientifically perpetuated almost entirely by government-funded "research". Utter nonsense. Accepting this nonsense requires no knowledge of Earth's climatological history, no understanding of plant biology, and no knowledge of, but a thorough acceptance of, erroneous computer climate simulations. That, the UN mouthpiece and a 300 million dollar ad campaign from AlGore....Oh yes, and a total ignorance of human nature....Thus Greenie Zombies....
If nothing else, a little economics would have helped. When's the last time good science required a 300 million dollar ad campaign to "sell" it?
Posted by jonryker at 2008-05-08 03:17 PM


Clean coal is one excellent example. In a sickly ironic twist we now have children pimping "clean coal" in television ads hourly. Coal burning is the number one cause of mercury poisoning in the planetary food chain, not just the humans. It's destroying all life, everywhere. The overfishing is a serious problem that has decimated the ocean grocery, but the mercury poisoning appears almost unsolvable in any short-term scenarios.

I also agree that the climate models using CO2 to predict weather are not painting an entirely accurate image of the global climate changes occurring or it's relationship with a number of other factors. You aren't being honest with me though - you know that CO2 isn't the main proponent of this causality, merely a byproduct.

The other terrestrial planets/moons appear to also be effected with a similar "warming", not just Earth. This is not coincidence.

Chemtrails appear to consistantly be followed by dramatic changes in weather. Again, I disbelieve in the coincidence.

Imo weather is being seriously modified, but to what end is difficult to accept.

Whatever you mean by "human nature", I feel is tied directly to what Vernon means by being "aware of reality" - which is exemplified by the existence of this very thread. EPA data is withheld, disregarded and modified to suit the needs of government and private industrialists rather than to benefit society or the ecosystem.

Why else would energy be privatized outside of State ownership? Electricity, oil, gas and coal are nearly all "owned" by out-of-State corporations - they certainly should not have access let alone turn around and SELL US OUR OWN ENERGY. EPA proves a hindrance to much of these wasteful ownership programs, so BushCo basically stopped the data from being used by anyone.

Hugo Chavez may have gotten it right - unify and regulate State and National resources, particularly in the face of OPEC.

DDenton,

It isn't corruption. It's how things work. It worked that way before Bush, and it will afterward. Science is a human undertaking done by humans, but it takes money. Money never comes without strings.

The way to guard against human frailty is the existence of scientific peer review. In a situation where the only people peer reviewing your studies are other government-employed scientists whose grants go away if there is no global warming crisis, don't be surprised when the study comes out in favor of global warming. There is no check in place in this interest. The junk science in unavoidable.

The innoculation against such malpractice is a well-informed citizenry in science. We don't have this. The public school system ensures we do not. It is unavoidable under the current state of affairs.

Perhaps Bush, knowing that global warming is nonsense, tried to put the kabosh on some of this misinformation. There is no buck stoppage. Given the ignorance of the citizenry, disreputable scientific practices can and will prevail in spots where there is insufficient peer review. There's no way it can work...unless we start actually educating people.

"Isn't this internet connection working?"
posted by JONRYKER

I think it is working. In fact, I would say that internet is one of our finest working products on the market. I am even going to go a step further and say it works so well because it is something that Government has stayed out of for the most part(except for gambling...damn republicans and their morality legislation).

Allahu Bushybar! Allahu Cheneybar! Ignorance is bliss!

Redlight,

I think our biggest difference is that you trust government and I do not. I trust the marketplace...let me explain.

If the govnerment controls anything (scientific information, energy, education, etc) completely, then there is no counterbalance. So you have to trust them. However, the government is composed of people you don't know. Why would you trust them to be honest, public-spirited people over the long haul. They won't becuase they're humans. They're gonna try to get promoted and make money and, if unchecked, will do so without considering the needs of the people. I submit the public education system as exhibit one, and I can do that, because I'm a public school teacher.

Government bureacrats aren't elected. They are responsible to no one. They just perpetuate, and no one can drive them out of business.

Now, look at the market. Capitalists are, as a rule, ambitious risk-takers (unlike govt. bureaucrats and politicians, who are ambitious, but not risk-takers), motivated by something we all undertand: money. Since what they want is money, they must please consumers, and therefore the market has a built-in check. What they produce must work, or else people won't buy it. It can't be too expensive, either, or consumers will buy it from somebody else who makes it cheaper. So, the need to provide products that work at a reasonably low cost is what drives the greedy, type A assholes the Left hates so much. The beauty of this system is that you don't have to be a nice guy or an ethical guy or anything to provide a service....you must please the market. In the scientific sense, this means that corporate scientists can lie in the short term, and they do, but sooner or later someone will find them out, sue them, and a competitor will make them pay. This is assuming there is no monopoly. In some cases there is, and that's always bad, because there is no threat of replacement.

Now, the guys I want in charge of doing important things are they guys I control. I exert control over the capitalists...they need my money. The government bureucrats just need my tax money, and I don't get to say no.

In the case of government science, there is a bit of a check...you don't get funded if you don't scare the public, because the funding comes to you via representatives of the people...So, your study had better say that something is poisonous or racist or dangerous or harmful to nature or something, or else public interest dries up, and with it, your job.

Government science does have a useful regulatory function to keep unscrupulous corporate types from polluting and killing too many people. It does not have a constructive role in research science except in partnership with private scientists. In the global warming case, no such balance exists, and we unavoidably get junk science.

If the EPA stuck to catching polluters and stayed out of researching global warming hoaxes, we'd all be better off.

even better- remember the scientists who said we would run out of oil in 30 years...

IN 1970! (OPEC DAZE...)

Where are these experts? or are they contributing to all of the global warming and above columns...

GOOD GRAVY!!!

We have perpetual scandals coming from our DEQ, such as permitting carcinogenic foam insulation to substandard construction materials, fuels, emissions, pollen and airborne wastes.

From what I can determine these people may not even be Oregonians, many don't know the physical layout of the territories they supposedly over watch data for.

Imo, this is a purposeful concerted elimination of investigations as well as the erosion of public health.

Is it common practice to privatize air & water shed data collection or management?

Posted by redlightrobot at 2008-05-08 02:18


About 90 % of my company's work involves section 404 compliance work but we've done a wide range of projects. I really can't speak for Oregon, but elsewhere it's very common to use private companies for air and watershed management.

In theory, the way it's supposed to work is a big project like this is put out for a competitive bid. In general, these projects are linked to an "undertaking" that involves federal funding or permits. It's not actually the DEP/DEQ that's paying for the study (they're merely the lead-agency), it's the company that's putting in the mine, power plant, etc. that's funding it for regulatory compliance.

Numerous environmental firms will bid and it will go to the most qualified firm with a middle-of-the-road bid. Typically, an environmental firm will do the data collection/analysis and may outsource the geospatial (GIS) aspects to a sub-contractor (many firms are doing this in house now). The DEP/DEQ should be very active in monitoring the environmental firms work and provide consultation throughout the entire process. The final reports should also be reviewed by someone qualified in the field.

Unfortunately, what often happens in reality is the project often goes to the lowest bidder, who may-or-may not be qualified in the field. If the state DEP/DEQ doesn't adequately monitor or review their work, there's absolutely no incentive for the company to do any kind of decent work. It's been my experience that a poorly managed review agency often prefers short and low quality reports over long, detailed, and high quality ones.

Another problem that often arises, is in some states these reports are monitored by a permitting branch of a government agency and not actually by a qualified scientist. For example, in some branches of the Army Corp, it's not uncommon for a permitting bureaucrat to be responsible for reviewing archaeological or biological assessments related to a 404 project. Of course, when this is the case everything gets rubber stamped.

All of this leads to very shoddy work and questionable contractors. My firm has actually stopped working in several states for this very reason. We do very high quality, honest work, but many of our competitors don't do either. Since there is very little oversight in a few states, they always manage to undercut us significantly. In states with decent oversight, we do significantly better because they can't manage to get any reports through review.

As I mentioned before, these kind of problems are rampant throughout the entire system.

GOPhers, being hopelessly over-zealous idealogues and True Believers, have an abysmal track record with the Enviroment.

From initial opposition to the idear of interfering with corporate profits in order to clean up the earth, water and air, to Reagan nominating James "Armageddon is a'coming" Watts as SecInt to Chimpy putting corporate lobbyists for the planets biggest polluters into the EPA at all levels, the GOPhers are quite simply eco-cidal freaks who should all dig a hole in their backyards and beat themselves in the head with a shovel until they fall down dead and ultimately become mulch, thus assauging Mother Earth anger and paying some small portion of their collective karmic debt back to the planet.

If the EPA stuck to catching polluters and stayed out of researching global warming hoaxes, we'd all be better off.

~RykersIsland

Are you an actual functionary of the massive Global Warming Denial Industry by Exxon Mobil and other corporate polluters or are you just a brain dead victom of their propaganda?

Inquiring minds wanna know.

/The more you know...

Be Well.

"they could not freely share their findings with the media"

Why is this shocking? Every government agency has a high official that speaks for the agency. Employees are not to contact the media. It has been this way at least for fifty years.

The laughable part is there is no reporting on how the Bush Administration has interfered. Instead the reporter went off on a tangent saying these agencies should distance themselves from the White House. No proof, no substance, only opinions and agenda.


DDenton,

It isn't corruption. It's how things work. It worked that way before Bush, and it will afterward. Science is a human undertaking done by humans, but it takes money. Money never comes without strings.


Sure, it's how things work. This is just how it works under a corrupt administration.


The way to guard against human frailty is the existence of scientific peer review. In a situation where the only people peer reviewing your studies are other government-employed scientists whose grants go away if there is no global warming crisis, don't be surprised when the study comes out in favor of global warming. There is no check in place in this interest. The junk science in unavoidable.


First, human frailty isn't at fault here, unless you're talking about the management. Scientists conduct planned, detailed experiments, then document and test the results, then it's peer reviewed. Where do you get these talking points? Senator Inhofe?


The innoculation against such malpractice is a well-informed citizenry in science.
We don't have this. The public school system ensures we do not. It is unavoidable under the current state of affairs.


You hit the nail right on the head. With the current administration the educational system isn't performing the way it should. Take note of "No Child Left Behind", which should have been titled the exact opposite, just like every other program under this presidency. If it's not the people setting the standards and providing the funding, whose fault is it? The teachers? The students?


Perhaps Bush, knowing that global warming is nonsense, tried to put the kabosh on some of this misinformation. There is no buck stoppage. Given the ignorance of the citizenry, disreputable scientific practices can and will prevail in spots where there is insufficient peer review. There's no way it can work...unless we start actually educating people.

Posted by jonryker


The fact that this kind of arrogance and stupidity exist inside one person's brain is intolerable. Do you honestly think our "non-newspaper reading" president knows dick about what causes global warming? The man can't deliver a speech without reading from his notes every 2 seconds, let alone discern that global warming is nonsense. Hell, even HE has acknowledged that is exists, and here you try to blow smoke up everyone's ass that he "knows better". The fact that you work in the educational system is testament to what's wrong with our educational system.

"The fact that you work in the educational system is testament to what's wrong with our educational system."

After reading many of Jon Ryker's posts I have to say I heartily agree. I shudder to think that clown teaches school. I don't know but I suspect it is a "Christian" academy where standards are unimportant as long as ideology is pure.

Before you call me stupid, please understand that I, unlike you, have worked science as a corporate researcher on both private and government projects. I've also taught science and worked with government researchers in the coarse of doing that.

I was not involved with the EPA, but the FDA.

It isn't corruption. It's how things work.


Let me guess. Vioxx? Avandia?

researchers in the coarse of doing that

Of "coarse" (sic) you have.

"Vioxx? Avandia?"

Posted by YAV


Escherichia coli

FF, Zat!

Danni is having another "Bong Water Cocktail"

Ryker,

Do not even try to give/argue the facts to most of these loones. They are so hatred driven they would throw their own mothers under the bus for disagreeing with them.

And I do not understand why. But I think it may be that they are basement dwelling underachievers working at a fast food chain somewhere and have not done what it takes to get ahead in life and are blaming everyone but themselves.

That is why they want a dem in office, they want something for nothing. They feel they are owed something. They are jealous of those who have achieved and want to tear them down.

I do pity these people though. I find it so sad that there seems to be so many of them.

The key is balance. In the environmental area, since there is next to no private science being done, the funding is overwhelmingly government-based, and the science has become politicized to the point of not being science.


Posted by jonryker at 2008-05-08 11:48 AM | Reply | Flag:

"next to no private science being done..."

This is nominated to be one of the most retarded things ever posted on the DR.

THese EPA entrenched liberal global warming wackos should be muzzled.

Posted by fwthom at 2008-05-08 12:07 PM | Reply | Flag
You're right.

Rivers should catch fire and firemen should be made to breath deadly air while digging their dead fellow firefighters out of the wreckage of a building.

"The key is balance. In the environmental area, since there is next to no private science being done, the funding is overwhelmingly government-based, and the science has become politicized to the point of not being science."

Jon, please explain to the class who would fund environmental research other than government.
The government has to fund environmental research because there isn't a profit waiting as a reward for the research. Some grants probably are out there but still private industry is in the business of making a profit, environmental research won't make a profit for them so government needs to fund it. The only politicization has been from the Bush administration. What the right would like to pretend is politicization from the left is when the EPA says something like....yes there is water pollution, yes there is air pollution, yes they are contributing to global warming. The right doesn't like the FACTS and thus pretend it is all politics.
We've been here before, we've heard the denials before. It never changes, just the issues get bigger.

DDenton,

Clearly your experience with science and scientists begins and ends with a high school text book. Scientists have bills to pay like everyone else. They cheat, fudge data, cook statistics all the time if they're allowed. Many times, they are forced to if they wish to keep their positions and feed their families. Me, I always refused to do this, which is a major reason I'm a teacher now.

Only a solid peer review process prevents this. There is no solid peer review process within the global climate group, because they're all government-funded and if they tell the truth they'll be unemployed. Scientists are not more honest than other people. Do you know how I know? Because I AM one and WORK with them! I don't imagine there are any scientific conventions in your momma's basement, so I don't see how you can claim that you know more about this then someone inside the system....You can call me a lier, of course, but then I could call you one too, and we wouldn't get anywhere, would we? Or, like the Dems in general, is that your intent? If so, you'd make a good public school principal or an excellent government bureaucrat....oh, they're the same thing!

Tell me what's wrong with No Child Left Behind? Me, as someone who works under it, I know what's wrong with it, but I'm betting you don't, so just let me know what you think is wrong with it? Then tell me how you think the Department of Education is not responsible for it?

Danni,

I've slapped you around often enough that even you should be able to remember that I am an athiest and public school teacher. Therefore, I'm pretty sure I know a lot more about the system than you do. Then again, if i were a potted plant, i'd know more about the situation than you do. In their defense, though, how is it that Catholic school kids score so much higher on ACT's than public school kids? How can they do this without the oversight of the Department of Education? How can they do this when they spend so much less money than the public schools do? They pay their teachers so much less? How do they do it year in, year out?

Yav,

Pepto-Bismol, Nyquil, Vaporub...nothing so glamorous, I'm afraid....It did provide entertaining business travel opportunities, though!

uncommonsense;

As a retired Firefighter I would like to know, WHAT THE FUCK ARE YOU TALKING ABOUT?

Muzzled by Bush? Huh.

Big Oil needs to start drilling soon in the Lake Erie Basin, North Slope of Alaska. All the other countries are doing it and they are laughing at us.

What about Coal to Oil? WE HAVE THE MIDDLE EAST OF COAL!

At the same time seek better fuel economy and alternate technology.

OIL is the one thing that can ruin our country.

uncommonsense;

As a retired Firefighter I would like to know, WHAT THE FUCK ARE YOU TALKING ABOUT?

Posted by retnluvnit at 2008-05-08 06:41 PM | Reply | Flag:

retarded&LuvnIt,

your fellow wacko 'fwthom' was going on about the how the 'libs' of the EPA should be muzzled.

I think you must have breathed too much smoke if you don't know I'm talking about the EPA report on the air quality at ground zero, where firefighters were told there was no danger and now we're seeing all sorts of strange respiratory illnesses.

These right wing hacks really must believe that they are going to get way with that crap on this site, the "WELL CLINTON DID IT TO"....Gees, do you fuck realize that you are the lunatic fringe. If 71% think that this President of your is a fucking loser it stands to reason there are some Republicians in that group, there just isn't that many Democrats. Get it Assholes even Republicans with some brains have finally seen this fuck for what he is!!!! Except you fucking LUNATICS!!!

Wow!

It is prudently clear that those here who are defending bush are not interested in the safety of this country's citizens.

This is why we don't limit the amount of money for law suits, those who willfully and purposely minipulate data to support their cause should have millions taken from them.

It is willfull wrecklessness for no better reason other than to make money at the expense of citizens lives.

Now I call that a healthy government, can anyone say RUSSIA or CHINA is in the making here in the U.S.

Celisary, are you born stupid and its genetic like your dumbfuck parents?

You use approval rating as the litmus test.

Dude, bro, Democrat run congress is half that.

So I guess your the dumbfuck huh? I mean do you read what you write? you forgot the democrats have way less approval rating than Bush?

Wait, your evolved from a rock, after the big bang, that explains your ignorance. Now go play horseshoes with your parents in the backyard.

Bye.

Kuma

Treason by any other name!

When the White House blocks and muzzles any truth and justice and instead institutes its own fascist agenda,as in this case or in the establishment of secret prisons or in its Guantanamo Bay Kangaroo Courts etc.,then its not simply unconstitutional its out and out Treason!

Anticadillac,

Treason? Well, at least you can spell it, but the meaning of the word appears to elude you.

Danni,

Yes, you're exactly right. Only the government has an interest in funding environmental research, particuarly at on the global level. This ensures that this will be junk science, because there is no way to work a good peer review process. The only people reading this studies who have any expertise are the very people who would lose their jobs if it turned out that the studies found that the envirnoment was perfectly fine. THese people have to eat, and they can't get another job, because they're global environmental scientists and no one else will employ them. So, do you think they're gonna say that the environmonment is fine and that really the globe isn't warming and emissions have nothing to do with it? Not if they wanna eat, they won't. A lobsided system like that will and must produce junk science. It's not really anybody's fault except the scientists who choose to sell out and the leeches like AlGore who make a profit off this junk science.

Ddenton,

Made any progress on what's wrong with NCLB yet? I'm waiting for your assessment...

Commonsense,

Do you know of any private companies who do global climate for profit? No? Then I guess all these global climate people are either working for free, or their payed by some government entity....

Any more scientific illiterates wanna step up on this one, or you just all wanna shout "Fascist Lier" from the depths of your scientist-free momma's basement?

Any more scientific illiterates wanna step up on this one,

Naw, you're plenty enough.

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