Drudge Retort: Red Meat for Yellow Dogs

SAN JOSE, Calif. -- The U.S. government fined a consulting firm $45,000 for placing online job ads for computer programmers that said only H-1B visa holders should apply. The case is just the tip of an iceberg of H-1B abuses, according to a lobbying group that filed the original complaint. The Department of Justice said iGate Mastech placed 30 online job ads in May and June 2006 asking for only H-1B visa holders. The case is one of 215 the DoJ has handled involving preference for H-1B workers over U.S. citizens since the year 2000.

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how frickin' old is this story, anyways?

"For the last few years the U.S. has imported more H-1B than it has grown new engineering jobs," said Miano. "This program is out of control," he said.


The republican administration at its finest. The hypocrisy of the economy democracy these republicans hold so dear.

A good article and the facts are clear, we are in trouble and corporations, even high tech. ones, are the problem.

They were laughing as they wrote the check.

When they hire an H-1B visa holder they are getting someone who is well educated and competent. Hiring a native born master degreed person does not even guarantee that you will get someone who can read, write and do arithmatic. Plus he will probably be a spoiled brain washed lib. We need more immigrants with brains, talent, and conservative values.

Mensa Thom

how frickin' old is this story, anyways?

Six days.

The republican administration at its finest. ... we are in trouble and corporations, even high tech. ones, are the problem.

Posted by moneywar at 2008-05-08 06:27 AM | Reply

The problem is 45 years of liberal control of public education.

You spend two generations teaching kids about 'self-esteem' sex and ebonics, and this is what you get. Teach kids that math and science are hard werk, and this is the result.

This is Labor Arbitage. Using Chinese and Indian Labor to break American's. Corporate and CEO profits have never been better. When you are King of a large labor pool, there is easy money in flipping companies and skimming labor rates. Making better products cheaper is too difficult and risky, when all that matters is stock prices.

Congress set a cap on H-1B Visas when they were bribed into implementing this program. But the caps have never even been counted properly, much less enforced. Fuck the middle class. We won't worry about losing a market to sell into. There are plenty of Chinese and Indians to sell to, provided we didn't give away our trade secrets in exchange for the slave labor. Oops, we did.

This is Labor Arbitage. Using Chinese and Indian Labor to break American's. Corporate and CEO profits have never been better. When you are King of a large labor pool, there is easy money in flipping companies and skimming labor rates. Making better products cheaper is too difficult and risky, when all that matters is stock prices.

Congress set a cap on H-1B Visas when they were bribed into implementing this program. But the caps have never even been counted properly, much less enforced. Fuck the middle class. We won't worry about losing a market to sell into. There are plenty of Chinese and Indians to sell to, provided we didn't give away our trade secrets in exchange for the slave labor. Oops, we did.



Seriously, what do you do when the late-19th century and early 20-th century standards of living are far superior to what Communist China offers with its recent embrace of Capitalism?

Is it: "Fuck those slant-eyed pieces of shit - and fuck them for embracing general living conditions that are a vast improvement over what they've 'enjoyed' under abject Communism prior to now."?

Fact is, their human condition is improving, although it isn't as advanced as the US.

Is it, "Fuck the Chinese worker!"?

Vern:

I agree 100%..

You want conservative immigrants - perhaps more middle easterners, then, right? Anyone who writes somthing that stupid can't be in mensa, Thom.

www.cis.org

Mensa Thom -- Check this out.

This is a study by Norm Matloff

H-1Bs: Still Not the Best and the Brightest

Discussion and Conclusions

The lobbyists for the tech industry and the American Immigration Lawyers Association know that crying educational doom-and-gloom sells. Even though it was people born and educated in the United States who were primarily responsible for developing the computer industry, and even though all major East Asian governments have lamented their educational systems' stifling of creativity, the lobbyists have convinced Congress that the industry needs foreign workers from Asia in order to innovate.

The data show otherwise. Most foreign tech workers, particularly those from Asia, are in fact of only average talent. Moreover, they are hired for low-level jobs of limited responsibility, not positions that generate innovation. This is true both overall and in the key tech occupations, and most importantly, in the firms most stridently demanding that Congress admit more foreign workers.

Note again that the analyses presented here confirm and provide much sharper quantitative insight into previous work showing that the H-1Bs are of just average talent. It has been shown for instance that foreign students in the U.S. tend to be concentrated in the less-selective universities, and that they receive a lower percentage of research awards relative to their numbers in the student population. In the workforce, the foreign nationals in the U.S. participate in teams applying for patents at the same percentage as do the U.S. citizens, and so on.

To be sure, the author is a strong supporter of facilitating the immigration of the world's best and brightest. He has acted on that belief, by championing the hiring of extraordinarily
talented researchers, mostly from India and China, into his department faculty. But as seen here, very few of the foreign workers are of that caliber.

Expansion of the guest worker programs - both H-1B visas and green cards - is unwarranted.

Isn't it about time that US citizens took college courses that they coud realy use for a job?

How about thoes grade schools and high schools that dumb our childern down so they get out of school without an education?

"Is it, "Fuck the Chinese worker!"?"

No. It's fuck the American worker, unless you think American economic policy should make jobs for foreigners a priority.

Gotta love these bleeding heart conservatives with their passionate concern for the plight of workers...in every other country except their own.

H-B visa employee's are not the best and the brightest by a long shot. I am a chemist for a pharmaceutical company, and more than half of the chemists in the QC lab are foriengn born. Mostly Indian and Russian. They are generally average to below average chemists, And certainly not any harder working than American born chemists I have worked with over the years. That isn't to say there are no exceptional immigrant employees, but that they are hardly the cream of the crop as a whole.

The problem lies with the fact that in the US, a shitty BS in Business will land a better job and higher salary than an MS and in some cases a PhD in Chemistry will. So students are not willing to put in the extra effort for the technical degree in the sciences, and we end up having to import our workforce. Because employers are given easy access to a pool a cheap educated labor they are not forced to pay more for difficult to fill positions.

H1Bs are needed to supply engineers which are a dying breed in the US. As Schmanch says it is far easier to get a BS than an Eng degree. I know waching fellow classmates fuck off for their eco or bus degrees while I had to work my ass off for comp sci. But few people get any decent jobs with just a bus degree let alone an MBA. It's a minority of MBA and Law grads that make anything decent. I don't know the marget in Chem but for comp sci its quite easy to get a job and in about five years of experience you can break $100k. Breaking $150k with any amount of experience is extremely difficult though.

I know a lot of people who got into the US on H1Bs in IT and are now US citizens. They are extremely talented. Yes there are so low end hires as well but for the most part H1Bs are not abused and are bringing in resources that cannot be found locally.

There is a real shortage of IT engineers in the US. You can cry as much as you want about immigrants but it doesn't change the facts.

Of course guys like CalifChris who was a pacbell support guy without a college degree and no understanding of the IT industry will say how it is all different because he is such a xenophobic pussy.

The problem lies with the fact that in the US, a shitty BS in Business will land a better job and higher salary than an MS and in some cases a PhD in Chemistry will.Posted by schmanch

Agreed. Why value technical knowledge and aptitude when 'business savvy' can get you much further? A VP at my previous employer told me for years that 'without the sales guys, you tech guys wouldn't have a job' and that 'sales guys work much harder and are more valuable than you tech guys.' This type of attitude (even though we still trade barbs via email as friends) was pervasive and was one of many reasons I left this company, but I know they are not alone in this attitude.

They like to take this libertarian/Ayn Rand philosophy without admitting that they are one of the prime groups that Rand was railing against -- nonproducers that suck the life out of the rest of us.

This idea that selling crap and managing sales functions is more important than the product itself is responsible for the death of more than one product. The only exception to that rule has been Iraq. But I think we're finally seeing a lack of interest in that 'product.'

H1Bs are needed to supply engineers which are a dying breed in the US. As Schmanch says it is far easier to get a BS than an Eng degree. I know waching fellow classmates fuck off for their eco or bus degrees while I had to work my ass off for comp sci. But few people get any decent jobs with just a bus degree let alone an MBA.

Posted by furio

Like I said a couple of days ago, we pay entertainers (pro sports, actors, and singers)more than engineers so what is the point of busting your ass to be an engineer?

You assholes hammered me for that statement on the post about the singer getting a GED.

H1Bs are needed to supply engineers which are a dying breed in the US.

Posted by furio at 2008-05-08 01:06 PM


Actually they aren't needed. There are plenty of engineers graduating in the US every year.
As per this site:
www.bls.gov
Overall job opportunities in engineering are expected to be good because the number of engineering graduates should be in rough balance with the number of job openings between 2006 and 2016

Only people who want to skimp on paying engineers the going wage are 'outsourcing' internally. There are plenty of grads to fill those jobs, but they want a proper wage.

There is this too:
72.14.205.104
The authors of the report, the Urban Institute's Hal Salzman and Georgetown University
professor Lindsay Lowell, show that math, science, and reading test scores at the primary and
secondary level have increased over the past two decades, and U.S. students are now close to the
top of international rankings. Perhaps just as surprising, the report finds that our education
system actually produces more science and engineering graduates than the market demands.


So much for needing those H1B's! It's all bullshit, studies prove it!


how frickin' old is this story, anyways?

Six days.

Posted by rcade at 2008-05-08 09:27 AM | Reply | Flag

In other words....go fuck yourself Jomama. (rcade has a way with words)

Perhaps just as surprising, the report finds that our education
system actually produces more science and engineering graduates than the market demands.

So much for needing those H1B's! It's all bullshit, studies prove it!"


There's a Drudge poster here who works for one of these corporate whores AKA H1B consulting firms. Not surprisingly, he claims there is a shortage of American IT workers. I don't recall who the poster is, but maybe Furio knows.

Those that claim there aren't enough US Engineers are full of shit. This argument was a lie to implement the H-1B program which has drastically reduced domestic demand. U-Tube has tapes of Lawyers advising Human Resource Departments how to play the game. Its lie, lie, lie for money.

Engineering School is tough. Business, Law and Medicine pay better. But these trades will be at risk next.

I spent a week just before Christmas in NYC. My friend's building, one of three matching 40 story apartment buildings, was 90% H-1B workers from India and China.

All brought over to replace higher paid Americans working in the financial district.

And this was only one complex.

The same people who support the expansion of the H-1B program are self-proclaimed champions of the "free market system" where supply and demand regulates the cost of goods, salaries, etc. They claim to detest government intrusion in to private enterprise.

In practice, however, they love government intrusion into free enterprise when that intrusion helps business. They are only against government intrusion when they see the policy as making running their business more difficult or more expensive.

In short, they are hypocrites. The lobbying for expansion of the H-1Bs by supposed champions of the free market, e.g. Bill Gates, exposes them for the hypocrites that they are.

If they truly believed in free market economics, the supposed shortage of engineers and scientists would drive businesses to offer higher salaries for those positions. This, in turn, would encourage more young people to choose those professions eventually increasing supply which would lead to a salary plateau at some point.

But, they don't like how the free market works in this case. So, they whine to politicians and demand that immigration law be rewritten in such a way that it benefits their industry. Specifically, they want to usurp the free market supply and demand mechanisms by flooding the labor market with engineers and scientists to keep salaries down.

When a liberal constituency lobbies government to regulate some aspect of business for the benefit of employees, they are labeled socialists or communist. When the supposed champions of the free market lobbies government to protect business from the ebbs and flows in the labor market, no such accusations are made. Funny that.

P.S. Anyone who claims that we are getting the "best and brightest" through the H-1B program does not work in industry as an engineer or scientist. While some are highly skilled and hardworking, many are not. Just like the native workers.

"A VP at my previous employer told me for years that 'without the sales guys, you tech guys wouldn't have a job' and that 'sales guys work much harder and are more valuable than you tech guys."

Sales jobs are far more difficult than tech jobs. They earn their money. The job is you basically need to get someone to put their job on the line signing over potentially millions of dollars for your product when the competitors' product are not much different. Sales guys salaries are lower than tech but they make up for it and then some on bonus. go over their target numbers? they make a killing. But if a sales exec misses his numbers for two quarters in a row his ass is fired.

If you want to be competitive with H1B's you libs should go back to college and get advanced degrees in Black history, women's studies, and gay history. Maybe you could sign up with Obama's friend, the terrorist professor William Ayers.

A tech guy blows away the database and he's fired too. They are both tough jobs in different ways. Most sales guys could be tech guys and vice versa.

Still, H1-B is bullshit, we produce more than enough talent locally.

H-1B is the way US Corporations can get cheap foreign labor into this country by lying to the government.
It isn't just Republicans to blame since they have been doing this for at least 20 years. They claim they can't get people with the skills necessary to do the job and need to import workers with the proper skills.
But it is a huge lie. I spoke with my US Senator about this dodge. What companies do is move higher salaried US workers into jobs they are not trained to do and if they make a mistake, they fire them. As an alternative, they offer them a severance package to voluntarily quit. Then they tell the government that they don't have any qualified American workers to handle the job and need to get H-1B visas to bring in workers from overseas.
The American workers have no choice but to take the severance package or they risk being on the street with nothing.
The company I worked for, Computer Associates, did this all of the time. The founder's brother, Anthony Wang came up with this scheme after their company was cited by the Government with age discrimination.
Every year, dozens of highly skilled workers would be made to walk the plank. At ten years you got your gold Rollex watch and withing a few months to a year got tossed.
The year I got my Rollex, there were about 23 of us. One guy got tossed a week before he received his watch. I got to walk the plank about 18 months after getting my watch. My boss told me that he could get two guys from overseas for what they were paying me. At the time I was a Relational Database Languages expert. CA charged companies $1200 a day plus expenses (I made about $310) a day) for me to teach people Relational Database theory and languages. That was 15 years ago. With inflation they probably charge ove $2000 a day now. Within a year of my taking the walk, the guy who originally trained me took the walk, the boss who dumped me was dumped himself, the VP who approved my termination was dumped as well.

The funny thing about all of this is that we worked hard to build a great company. The founder, Charles Wang, became a billionaire.
Then the governement discovered CA had been cooking the books so Charles was made to resign as CEO. He now is the owner of the New York Islanders NHL team. His replacement as CEO is now facing many years in Federal Prison and like a $25 million fine for his part in inflating sales numbers in order to boost stock prices so that executives could cash in their stock options and make millions of dollars.

So I have had first hand experience with what H-1B visas can do to American workers.
For those who think that Americans are poorly educated, all I can say is that in my working career I have had H-1B visa holders with Master's Degrees and Doctorates working for me. They were not smarter than me and certainly not as good at dynamic thinking. Too many H-1B workers are more like automatons. They do well when told what to do, like robots. But not very good at original thinking. Not all mind you, but a vast majority of those I have worked with.

The above should read:
most sales guys could not be tech guys and vice versa.

Actually they aren't needed. There are plenty of engineers graduating in the US every year.

Overall job opportunities in engineering are expected to be good because the number of engineering graduates should be in rough balance with the number of job openings between 2006 and 2016

Posted by bigjohn_1972

That being the case, how come every large company I deal with is begging for enginers?

If there wasn't a shortage, I would be sitting on my ass all the time in stead of working as much as I want and turning many jobs down.

"In other words....go fuck yourself Jomama. (rcade has a way with words)

Posted by ride_on "

Too bad you don't.

I've been in the IT industry for a long time. coding, designing, managing. From everyone I know around the world there is a huge shortage of developers and more specifically skilled architects and managers with technical background. Salaries are going up around the world. Yes, there were layoff in the US but a lot of that was due to the dot.com boom and all the wankers who joined in. There is also a pressure to keep salaries down but that is because of collusion but driven by economics of profitability.

When the US exits the recession expect a big jump in IT salaries.

If you are good in IT, not just a simple code monkey, you have a job.

for those of you arguing who are not in IT please shut up. You have no idea what you are talking about.

That being the case, how come every large company I deal with is begging for enginers?

If there wasn't a shortage, I would be sitting on my ass all the time in stead of working as much as I want and turning many jobs down.

Posted by Sniper at 2008-05-08 03:45 PM


There could be many reasons why you aren't finding people. One being not offering enough money, two being not being in contact with the schools. The schools are graduating the students. Maybe you need to look differently than you are now.
72.14.205.104
There are plenty of engineers out there, engineers aren't even getting jobs in their fields these days!

It seems
that nearly two-thirds of bachelor's graduates and about a third of master's graduates take jobs in
fields other than science and engineering.


So they are out there, maybe you need a different method to find them, I don't know. But they are out there.

I am an engineer. One of the only American engineers in my company. The last of a dying breed.

I posted this because the largest useage of H1-B, L1's is that of IT outsourcing firms, mostly from Indian.

I find this an abuse of the system.

en.wikipedia.org

en.wikipedia.org

I can understand a company not finding a particular expertise, thus asking for H1-B visa. But we have people at my company which work for Tata as L1's, and H2-B's. Just your ordinary QA, and code monkey's.

I can't understand how they can outsource someone with an L1 Visa? The purpose is to allow people to tansfer within thier company to another country.

Again, their work is good, but no better or worse than any other engineers I have ever come across.

The application process is broken, and being abused.

Spud's favorite part of this H12B visa scandals?

Watching Bill Gates going to Congress to beg for more H1B Visas by crying poverty and explaining how Microsoft needs them cheap Indian Techies in order to "stay competitive"

Musta taken some "keeping a straight face" lessons recently.

Musta aced that course.

Labour has been shit on by the powers that be for at least the last thirty years this merely another continuation of a long slow slide to the bottom ending with an internalised thrid world within the United States.

The propaganda in regards to workers rights is so thick in the US you can cut it with a knife and spread it on toast.

Did Spud just mention Workers Rights?

Oh Noes!1!! Commies under the bed !1!!EleventyOne!1

Be Well.

Big John 1972,
"The above should read:
most sales guys could not be tech guys and vice versa."

Since "The Above" post was mine, I assume you are referring to me.

In that case you are full of it. I have never been a "sales guy" and never want to be.
I have been a "tech guy" since 1968 when a 4K memory computer was bigger than a VW. Now I have more memory in my wrist watch than that old IBM 1401 beast had.

I worked with "lap tops" when the only lap they would fit on was King Kong's. They weighted about 40 pounds and had a screen smaller than most portable DVD players have today and the only color you saw was black or green.

So if that above comment wasn't pointed at me, I appologize. If it was, then you are still full of it.

Furio,
Not all dumping of IT people had to do with the dot com failures.
Many companies were using H-1B visas to cut their personnel costs long before the dot com boom was even born.
It just made it worse when these dot com companies went belly up since they recruited masses of programmers and then dumped them when they went belly up. So there was a flood of out of work Internet programmers.
Me, I have been a Systems Programmer for most of my life, with the exception of eight years when I was programming applications in manufacturing and then the insurance insustry. Virtually all of my systems programming work was done with IBM mainframe operating systems. Almost none was done with PC software at all except some alpha and beta testing of new Computer Associates PC products. So when I speak of relational database language implementation and teaching I am talking about mainframe applications with true relational database languages as well as SQL which is a poor substitute for any actual relational database design.
After all when the name of your "relational" database language is "Structured Query Language" it kind of gives you a clue that it isn't actually a relational database language since true relational query languages are by definition not STRUCTURED.

When they hire an H-1B visa holder they are getting someone who is well educated and competent. Hiring a native born master degreed person does not even guarantee that you will get someone who can read, write and do arithmatic. Plus he will probably be a spoiled brain washed lib. We need more immigrants with brains, talent, and conservative values.

Mensa Thom

Posted by fwthom at 2008-05-08 09:25 AM | Reply | Flag:

Do you work in the high-tech field? I ask because you clearly have NO CLUE as to what you're talking about.

I really like the part where, in your eyes, someone native born with a MASTERS DEGREE won't be able to read, write and do 'arithmatic' (or spell, in your case).

Also, you make it sound like the choices for high-tech companies are either H1B's or 'libs'. Are you trying say that the neo-cons aren't smart enough for the field?

BTW, H1B's are not used for the 'best & brightest'. They're used the 'not too bad & VERY cheap'.

Like I said a couple of days ago, we pay entertainers (pro sports, actors, and singers)more than engineers so what is the point of busting your ass to be an engineer?


Posted by Sniper at 2008-05-08 01:23 PM | Reply | Flag:


Ummmm....because I can't sing or act.

THESHYGUY;

I have no idea what you said, but I am impressed.

I thought spud had died... bummer.

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